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reddit #modtalk leak

a guest Oct 16th, 2012 949 Never
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  1. @spladug:       everyone, we're in a meeting right now trying to discuss this issue. we understand where you're coming from, but please don't mistake our silence -- we're trying to make sure we present a consistent and logical front.
  2. repeatedly pinging us with obnoxious messages is not in any way helpful.
  3. redtaboo:       spladug~ thank you for saying something
  4. GuitarFreak:    thank you spladug. looking forward to the outcome of this mess
  5. Triggs: Thanks spladug
  6. redtaboo:       to be fair to those that were complete and utter silence in the faace of PI being left up isn't helpfuleither
  7. @spladug:       you know that frequently we operate somewhat clandestinely during large shitstorms.
  8. for better or worse
  9. sodypop:        I think it's for the worse if nobody is going to at a very minimum remove personal information
  10. @spladug:       but that is not the case.
  11. will clarify momentarily.
  12. sodypop:        I can't see how the predditor tumblr isn't personal information, but i'll wait to hear the arguments presented.
  13. solidwhetstone: this is the biggest shitstorm in recent memory
  14. well since /r/jailbait really
  15. only that situation was more cut and dry. now we have off-site stuff going
  16. MillenniumFalc0n:       I think this is a bigger shitstorm, at least among the mods
  17. ManWithoutModem:        Didn't that happen almost exactly a year ago?
  18. :       tisiwhoshotjr has joined #modtalk
  19. solidwhetstone: sept 30 2011
  20. just a week and a half over a year
  21. Triggs: I think this is bigger too MillenniumFalc0n~ because it includes doxxing
  22. jailbait was just drama cause of the content
  23. solidwhetstone: right
  24. and you have many players
  25. MillenniumFalc0n:       Triggs: I think there's a lot more people upset with the admins over this than banning jailbait
  26. solidwhetstone: you have the creepshots guys, you have jezebel, you have srs, you have gawker
  27. redtaboo:       I'm not upset with the admins, so much as I am confused.
  28. @chromakode:    hey
  29. solidwhetstone: hey chromakode
  30. @kemitche:      solidwhetstone: You are correct. Off-site, particularly with journalism/pseudo-journalism (with or without "integrity") is a much less clear line.
  31. @chromakode:    I just wanted to say that we've been working pretty much nonstop since yesterday sorting through all this
  32. MillenniumFalc0n:       redtaboo: I just disagree
  33. upset might have been the wrong term
  34. solidwhetstone: lay it on us
  35. MillenniumFalc0n:       chromakode: we appreciate it. It's just hard, being in the dark
  36. @chromakode:    I understand
  37. MillenniumFalc0n:       but we also know you run a business, and probably can't reveal too much of the internal discussion
  38. redtaboo:       chromakode~ we do realize that, I promise. that predditors tumblr though, we feel should be taken care of. and yeah.. left in the dark is hard
  39. @spladug:       for clarification, predditors.tumblr.com has been banned sitewide since the first second we became aware of it.
  40. @chromakode:    we're still the same folks who worked day and night for you in the past. we haven't changed
  41. GuitarFreak:    awesome
  42. @spladug:       obviously, we can't remove it from tumblr, but we don't allow it linked on reddit.
  43. MillenniumFalc0n:       Great to hear!
  44. redtaboo:       ok, spladug the jezebel article links to it though
  45. @spladug:       that's not exactly something we can fix, redtaboo
  46. redtaboo:       you can remove that article
  47. MillenniumFalc0n:       ...couldn't you ban that specific jezebelle article?
  48. solidwhetstone: is reddit going to be making a public statement any time soon?
  49. @kemitche:      would we then have to remove articles that link to the jezebel article?
  50. sodypop:        The Jezebel article also contains personal information other than the predditors site, right?
  51. solidwhetstone: either to the members or the public?
  52. @kemitche:      and articles that link that articles that link to jezebel?
  53. GuitarFreak:    why not just ban the whole site?
  54. ZeroShift:      sodypop: Yes
  55. MobileFalc0n:   As they are found, yes
  56. You should require srs to remove the article when it is reported at least
  57. @spladug:       deleting things that link to bad links is not sustainable. what if it were in a wikipedia article, should we ban that whole domain?
  58. redtaboo:       ok, do you see where this gets us though? this puts us in the position of wondering what happens when it's one of us
  59. MobileFalc0n:   I think you should require mods to remove links on a case by case basis. For instance, with the jezebelle article which clear links to pi
  60. Most mods are removing it anyways, but you should step in with the few who dont
  61. This is an example of malicious doxxing, designed to incite a witch hunt
  62. @chromakode:    redtaboo, we understand. what can we do to help in such a case?
  63. redtaboo:       enforce the removing of all PI
  64. ManWithoutModem:        start by banning /r/srs and PI
  65. @spladug:       redtaboo: we can't control things that aren't on reddit. they could just as easily dox any of us admins too. fundamentally, they will have to face the consequences of their own actions and we can't control that.
  66. solidwhetstone: agreed. ban /r/srs
  67. it threatens reddit
  68. ZeroShift:      Second
  69. ManWithoutModem:        third
  70. redtaboo:       spladug~ your identity is known, and you get paid for your job
  71. GuitarFreak:    third
  72. redtaboo:       we don't
  73. solidwhetstone: banning srs would send a message. they go unchecked right now.
  74. redtaboo:       unless and until I get paid, I need assuarnces that the admins have my back
  75. :       MillenniumFalc0n has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  76. @spladug:       i understand redtaboo, but i don't understand how we're supposed to prevent people we have no control over from doing shitty stuff.
  77. ManWithoutModem:        @admins-read my post on why srs needs to die: http://www.reddit.com/r/modtalk/comments/119fvw/am_i_the_only_one_who_thinks_this_is_an_affront/c6kra2j?context=3
  78. @spladug:       fox news could do this, nbc could do this, etc.
  79. sodypop:        There's merit in banning SRS from the same viewpoint as how jailbait was banned. JB refused to remove CP and SRS refuses to remove personal information.
  80. redtaboo:       spladug~ at least that is journalism (kinda) the tumblr isn't
  81. ManWithoutModem:        you could ban the subreddits that these people find homes in
  82. ban the users
  83. things like that
  84. *cough* srs
  85. solidwhetstone: srs is the haven the doxxers go to. it makes sense to ban it
  86. @spladug:       sodypop: please report specific cases of personal information being upheld in SRS and we will deal with it.
  87. (modmail)
  88. @kemitche:      We don't ever want it to be one of you. But there's a limit to our power, and that limit is "stuff that's on reddit." We can't stop twitter or tumblr or anyone else from linking to jezebel. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't protect you from having it happen to you
  89. @spladug:       thank you kemitche for saying it much better than i was.
  90. redtaboo:       spladug~ the tumblr could very well not have correct information. And, while, we have no idea inf PIMA's post about the assault is true, and I don't trust him, we all know that's a real possiblity with this
  91. solidwhetstone: @admins- is banning srs an option? you seem to not be addressing that option
  92. @chromakode:    I agree with you redtaboo
  93. @spladug:       redtaboo: i completely agree with you too. that's a shitty as hell situation. but as kemitche said, that tumblr could be linked on twitter or facebook and there's jack shit we can do about it.
  94. redtaboo:       thanks, chromakode . I really do get you guys are in a hard position here
  95. @spladug:       blocking it on reddit won't help and isn't sustainable
  96. ZeroShift:      http://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/119q8v/project_panda_jezebel_runs_another_story_on/ <== The jezebel article contains dox, and an SRS mod outright stated they would not remove it
  97. ManWithoutModem:        Why has /r/srs not been banned when they have specifically stated that their goal is to take down reddit?
  98. sodypop:        spladug, every link from the jezebel article contains personal information other than the predditor link.
  99. ManWithoutModem:        >Our prime directive is that we will not intervene unless something attacks the structural integrity of the greater reddit community.
  100. ^lol
  101. sodypop:       link to dox
  102. that image is on the article
  103. ZeroShift:      And SRS refuses to remove their link to it
  104. solidwhetstone: @admins- is banning srs an option? you seem to not be addressing that option
  105. MobileFalc0n:   In irc an AA said they would not condemn nor remove the dox
  106. ManWithoutModem:        @admins- is banning srs an option?  you seem to not be addressing that option
  107. ZeroShift:      Yet it's against the tos to do so
  108. MobileFalc0n:   Solidwhetstone: even if it is, I feel like it's not something they're going to discuss in an irc channel
  109. solidwhetstone: @mobilefalc0n i don't care if they give me some bullshit political answer- even a nice 'we're considering all options' would be nice
  110. ZeroShift:      ^
  111. @chromakode:    of course we're considering all options, silly :P
  112. ManWithoutModem:        So admins, would you say that SRS has not attacked the structural integrity of the greater reddit community?
  113. ZeroShift:      I'm all for policital banter
  114. @chromakode:    the reason we're not discussing SRS is because you are completely derailing this discussion with it.
  115. we are trying to address your very real concerns about being doxed and your PI on reddit
  116. they are separate issues
  117. solidwhetstone: i think we are unified in feeling like SRS is threatening the structural integrity
  118. @cupcake1713:   +1
  119. (to chromakode)
  120. redtaboo:       spladug~ thank you, I get that. But we (and all mods) are wiling to watch for that stuff too. THat's what we do, we help with that.
  121. yes, cupcake1713 +1 to chromakode  there
  122. ManWithoutModem:        They aren't separate issues when SRS are the people doing the doxxing. :P
  123. @cupcake1713:   they are separate issues, ManWithoutModem
  124. @spladug:       redtaboo: but reddit is not jezebel's only traffic source. the content will still be up. if you're against them doxxing, tell THEM.
  125. redtaboo:       I agree everyone, let's keep this about the PI for now, please
  126. spladug~ I have
  127. @spladug:       perfect
  128. @cupcake1713:   yeah, i guess a good thing to say here is this: for any content not hosted on reddit, contact those publications DIRECTLY
  129. redtaboo:       also, I think our stand to block gawker traffic sends a clear message
  130. cupcake1713~ ManWithoutModem got the tumblr link temporily removed
  131. @kemitche:      redtaboo: From a personal standpoint, I have nothing against a subreddit deciding that certain domains are not allowed
  132. @spladug:       i'm with kemitche on that
  133. ManWithoutModem:        So people hosting jailbait are allowed to post links to reddit with no repreccusions?
  134. redtaboo:       kemitche~ thanks, a lot of subreddits are doing it
  135. I think there would be a great message if the admins followed suit
  136. @spladug:       you sure it wouldn't streisand the whole thing?
  137. @chromakode:    isn't that giving gawker what it wants? attention?
  138. MobileFalc0n:   Just so we're clear, posting dox is now acceptable as long as it's an off site link?
  139. solidwhetstone: the thing is already streisanded: http://news.yahoo.com/redditors-stand-gawker-protect-child-pornography-145854455.html
  140. redtaboo:       to gawker and other media that wish to irresponsibly post that information
  141. @spladug:       MobileFalc0n: no, you're oversimplifying. as previously stated, the tumblr was banned from the moment it was first seen.
  142. ZeroShift:      Let's not go putting words in people's mouths
  143. ManWithoutModem:        Yeah, I was planning on doxxing Paradox on my blog and posting it to reddit.  I was just wondering if that was alright.
  144. redtaboo:       It would, temporarily, but in the long run it WOULD hurt their traffic
  145. MobileFalc0n:   So as long as it's a link nested within another link?
  146. @spladug:       MobileFalc0n: is it really that hard to understand that nothing is black and white and there needs to be some case-by-case review?
  147. MobileFalc0n:   If I link to my blog, which links to Laurelai ED article, I'm not doxxing Laurelai?
  148. redtaboo:       and other media would know that reddit doesn't stand for this
  149. ManWithoutModem:        do you mind if I upload jailbait to my blog and post the links to reddit as well?
  150. GodOfAtheism:   i keep seeing people blaming srs for the doxxing, but i haven't seen any evidence that they're actually responsibel
  151. MobileFalc0n:   Spladug: sorry
  152. Just frustrated
  153. redtaboo:       GodOfAtheism~ we're not talking abut srs right now
  154. MobileFalc0n:   I'll quit derailing now
  155. redtaboo:       please don't muddy the conversation
  156. @kemitche:      Links-to-links have to be much more case-by-case.
  157. If your blog uploads JB, you'll likely have repercussions beyond just reddit.
  158. ManWithoutModem:        But what if it is legal?
  159. And I'm just hosting it off site.
  160. Reddit wouldn't really seem to have a problem with that.
  161. @kemitche:      The internet is a series of links
  162. @cupcake1713:   i think i'm having a hard time following your logic, ManWithoutModem... if you're posting something legal then why would we have a problem?
  163. ManWithoutModem:        lol
  164. solidwhetstone: @kemitche no it's a series of tubes ;)
  165. @kemitche:      and those links form quite a big web
  166. ManWithoutModem:        So I have the OK from the admins to post jailbait from my blog?
  167. solidwhetstone: don't forget creep shots
  168. ManWithoutModem:        To reddit
  169. redtaboo:       ManWithoutModem~ c'mon
  170. @kemitche:      so no, we're not going to flat-out ban all things that have a link chain that eventually touches something rule-breaking
  171. @cupcake1713:   guys, seriously
  172. redtaboo:       we need to try to havea real coonversation here
  173. regardless of my typing skills
  174. sodypop:        The jezebel article contains personal information directly in it.
  175. ZeroShift:      correct
  176. @kemitche:      sodypop: Many actual news articles contain full names
  177. solidwhetstone: so i think we need to define doxxing
  178. sodypop:        "including a Redditor she has identified as
  179. ZeroShift:      It has a redditor's username, real name and picture
  180. solidwhetstone: because i'm starting to see that maybe the admins and mods have different definitions
  181. ManWithoutModem:        Do they contain home addresses, phone numbers, etc?
  182. redtaboo:       many news organiztions use real sources, not a tumblr blog
  183. MobileFalc0n:   Directly connected to Reddit accounts kemitche?
  184. solidwhetstone: @kemitche does reddit consider doxxing legit if it's off site?
  185. or is doxxing only acknowledged when it's on site?
  186. MobileFalc0n:   The jezebelle article definitely violates reddit.com/rules
  187. ManWithoutModem:        *crickets*
  188. sodypop:        That user is no celebrity or public figure.
  189. @kemitche:      If you're going to twist every thing I say, then yes, you'll get crickets.
  190. solidwhetstone: @kemitche- did i twist anything?
  191. i can rephrase my question
  192. @chromakode:    a few people have to leave for lunch
  193. sodypop:        I feel at this point our conversation is not beingvery constructive.
  194. @kemitche:      You're all approaching it from "We don't like this jezebel article and how can I apply the prior admin statements/rules to get it removed"
  195. redtaboo:       solidwhetstone~ yeah, kinda... it seems like some of us are trying to trap the admins into saying something instead of listening to them
  196. @chromakode:    sodypop, agreed.
  197. redtaboo:       sodypop~ agree
  198. @chromakode:    we're trying to listen to you, too.
  199. solidwhetstone: i'm not trying to trap...i hope it hasn't seemed like i was
  200. @chromakode:    this is complicated *because* it's a nuanced issue
  201. @kemitche:      Whereas we have to try to approach it from "What are the general guidelines we can apply or modify to foster the desired community behavior"
  202. So it's very frustrating on our side to have any generalized guidelines we make get thrown back in our face
  203. @chromakode:    and without a doubt, we are on your side.
  204. sodypop:        The problem I have is that if linking a redditor's real name and picture to their account is allowed, then I don't feel protected with a reasonable amount of anonymity.
  205. I've always viewed anonymity as one of the core values of reddit.
  206. @chromakode:    I do too
  207. ManWithoutModem:        So when I go to http://reddit.com/rules and see that rule #3 is "Don't post personal information," yet I see personal information that the admins have left up, I along with many others, get worried.
  208. Rswany: is r/defaultmods private?
  209. redtaboo:       yes
  210. Rswany: because karmanauts post their was leaked
  211. http://i46.tinypic.com/291z79l.jpg
  212. redtaboo:       of course it was
  213. Rswany: and whoever did used tinypic
  214. eww
  215. solidwhetstone: lol
  216. @chromakode- i'm not trying to trap or anything- i just want to get clarification on only one question
  217. @chromakode:    yes?
  218. solidwhetstone: does reddit recognize off-site doxxing as doxxing? or does reddit only recognize on-site doxxing?
  219. ManWithoutModem:        ^
  220. @chromakode:    I don't think that question makes sense
  221. solidwhetstone: ok let me rephrase it
  222. @chromakode:    can you please be more specific?
  223. @kemitche:      solidwhetstone: you're asking for a black-and-white answer to a very grayscale question.
  224. solidwhetstone: i'm not sure how to reword that lol. i guess what i mean is- if the mods feel like- for example- srs is fostering an environment that encourages off-site doxxing, does reddit consider that?
  225. @chromakode:    also, I'd like to turn this question around to you. put yourself in our shoes. being a mod isn't very different from being an admin, particularly in responding to community issues in this respect, as kemitche said, we approach this from wanting to foster safe and constructive interaction on reddit
  226. I thought doxxing was a behavior, not a type of content?
  227. personal information also varies depending on the person
  228. we work really hard at all hours of the night to protect peoples' personal information on reddit
  229. solidwhetstone: right
  230. @chromakode:    but how can we better protect people from themselves or the rest of the internet?
  231. @kemitche:      The "black" end is: A link to a site that encourages users to look up /compile information on a reddit user and harass them. The "white" end is a respectable news source saying that such a dox happened, but without supplying any links or names or information (but what news source doesn't provide information?)
  232. sodypop:        A redditor who is not a public figure or celebrity has their real name, photo, and username posted on a site. The site is then linked on reddit. Is that considered posting personal information?
  233. redtaboo:       it is a behavior, for sure, and right now there is a 'this is bad, don't do it' *wink* thing going on with doxxing in certain subreddits
  234. solidwhetstone: ^
  235. ZeroShift:      ^^
  236. redtaboo:       That is the precise behaviour that should be stomped out
  237. @chromakode:    we actively investigate all activity of that kind
  238. you may not see it, because we have to be somewhat quiet about it.
  239. ManWithoutModem:        Then why is the jezebelle article still up?
  240. has the article not been investigated enough?
  241. You've had around 18 hours or so.
  242. sodypop:        Please, let's not try to assign blame
  243. @chromakode:    I'm here because I want to talk to you
  244. ManWithoutModem:        I want to talk too
  245. sodypop:        Yes, it is frustrating we've been kept in the dark for so long. We also need to keep our heads on straight if we are to discuss this openly.
  246. redtaboo:       ^^^^^
  247. @chromakode:    when you make me accountable for reddit's actions, it makes it hard for me to actually communicate with you and understand your position, because I'm not wholly responsible for what reddit does
  248. ManWithoutModem:        I understand that
  249. solidwhetstone: @chromakode- is there something we as mods can do- and perhaps that dacvak can do now as the new community manager to help us all be more on the same page as soon as shitstorms happen?
  250. like an internal press release sort of thing
  251. @chromakode:    I think the best thing we can do is get down to the specific of where you feel that action should be taken, and I'll make sure that we have a chance to discuss that
  252. @kemitche:      One key difference to understand is that there is a difference between a call to action (go find information / harass this person) and information that's already out there. Once information has been compiled and posted *somewhere* there's less we can do to limit its spread
  253. :       MillenniumFalc0n has joined #modtalk
  254. @chromakode:    solidwhetstone, I'd love to improve our communication, but please understand that we already keep you in the loop as quickly as we reasonably can
  255. MillenniumFalc0n:       kemitche: precedent says that's not the case though. For instance, I know several users have been dhadowbanned for linking to Laurelai's ED article, which is definitely already compiled and posted pi
  256. @kemitche:      I'm sure you can all recall a time where you had to remove a popular thread from your subreddit, and immediately saw a "WTF happened to post X?" get popular in your subreddit and/or others
  257. :       MobileFalc0n has quit IRC: Quit: desktop
  258. solidwhetstone: i think there were a lot of concerns that the admins have been pretty silent. just my perception
  259. sodypop:        kemitche, personal information doesn't cease being personal just because it becomes publicly available.
  260. @chromakode:    solidwhetstone, understood, but this is a particularly hairy issue and we'd really appreciate the benefit of the doubt from you
  261. ZeroShift:      sodypop: ^
  262. solidwhetstone: you definitely have the benefit of the doubt from me personally
  263. i was speaking more of my observation
  264. @chromakode:    gotcha.
  265. sodypop, agreed, but what are we to do about that?
  266. sodypop, what would you do?
  267. @kemitche:      sodypop: right. the goal is to minimize the spread. So should we Streisand it? Is that the most effective way to handle it? These are some of the things we have to consider.
  268. ZeroShift:      Fair enough
  269. sodypop:        chromakode, I would remove the Jezebel article that contains personal information (real name and photo) that has been linked to a reddit user's account.
  270. @chromakode:    actually, there's a pretty good analogy to be taken here
  271. mods have limited ability to prevent people from posting bad stuff in their subreddit, but they can't stop it from propagating outside of their subreddit walls
  272. as admins, we have the ability to remove bad stuff from reddit, but we can't prevent the rest of the internet from doing so
  273. solidwhetstone: that's why i created /r/republicofban :)
  274. @chromakode:    as mods, what do you do in a situation like this in your community?
  275. and please keep in mind that this is a nuanced question
  276. MillenniumFalc0n:       chromakode: all we're asking you to do is not allow it to be posted on reddit
  277. GuitarFreak:    as long as it stays off of reddit, i don't think there would be a problem
  278. sodypop:        I remove the personal information.
  279. MillenniumFalc0n:       ^
  280. which is what we do in our subs
  281. sodypop:        Or the links to personal information on reddit, to be specific.
  282. redtaboo:       chromakode~ I approach the other subreddits as a mod, and talk to them.
  283. GuitarFreak:    i know there's nothing you can really do about stuff outside of reddit, but keeping it off of reddit is a start
  284. ZeroShift:      But in certain cases, some subs refuse to remove link to PI
  285. @chromakode:    gotcha
  286. solidwhetstone: @chromakode i think we're all on the same page that nothing can be done about off-site stuff
  287. i _think_
  288. @chromakode:    yeah :(
  289. I think kemitche is right on about getting to the point of the personal information rule
  290. we definitely have the streissand effect to contend with here
  291. why do we remove personal info from reddit in the first place?
  292. MillenniumFalc0n:       chromakode: isn't most dox linked to on reddit already compiled?
  293. ZeroShift:      To protect people's info and identities
  294. redtaboo:       to protect users from with hunts IRL
  295. MillenniumFalc0n:       ^
  296. redtaboo:       *witch
  297. ZeroShift:      Some people wish to remain anonymous
  298. @chromakode:    right
  299. personally, I remained completely anonymous on the internet until I was 18. I totally get that
  300. MillenniumFalc0n, a significant problem is that reddit can be a great tool for compiling and organizing witchhunts
  301. it's the magnifying glass you can use to focus the sun
  302. sodypop:        I don't think the streisand effect should paralyze you from removing content that breaks the rules.
  303. ZeroShift:      ^
  304. @chromakode:    totally, I understand that
  305. @kemitche:      sodypop: the spirit of the rule is to prevent witch hunts and such
  306. :       aphoenix has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  307. MillenniumFalc0n:       chromakode: I'm not trying to derail, I'm just trying to find out how you would apply this. Based on this interpretation of doxxing, it seems like I should no longer remove/report, for instance, people who link to Laurelai's ED article (I use her as an example b/c that is the dox problem I deal with most often)
  308. it's already compiled and posted. It's not new
  309. I still remove it though, b/c it is linking a redditor with real life info
  310. :       aphoenix has joined #modtalk
  311. @chromakode:    MillenniumFalc0n, I don't think it would be fair to discuss changes in your action right now. I'm mostly trying to explore the issue with you and help us understand your viewpoint, and for you to understand why we're taking some time to figure out how to respond to this.
  312. :       Relic2279 has joined #modtalk
  313. sodypop:        Wouldn't you consider the jezebel article as encouraging  obvious vigilantism?
  314. ManWithoutModem:        question-when will you make a post to the mods and/or a post to the general public
  315. sodypop:        Something titled, "How to Shut Down Reddit’s CreepShots Once and for All: Name Names"
  316. That's a call for a witch hunt.
  317. @chromakode:    ManWithoutModem, I can't personally answer that question, but we'll communicate with you as much as we can
  318. sodypop, I agree
  319. :       a_redditor has joined #modtalk
  320. @kemitche:      sodypop: the article would be encouraging vigilante-ism even if it were a description of events without those photos.
  321. ManWithoutModem:        agreed sodypop
  322. a_redditor:     ooh! admins finally
  323. sodypop:        It encourages vigilantism and contains personal information, so isn't that enough to be removed?
  324. @kemitche:      And I don't think i'd agree that an article that says "vigilante-ism happened" is against the rules. Much like an article about the jailbait events is not against the rules.
  325. ManWithoutModem:        what if the article linked to jailbait, just like the vigilante-ism article links to dox?
  326. do you see what I'm getting at?
  327. @kemitche:      That's not a precise comparison
  328. sodypop:        We should be careful with anologies to jailbait (yes i made one earlier).
  329. CP, or sexualizing minors is illegal. "Doxxing" isn't illegal
  330. @kemitche:      "What If Anderson Cooper showed jailbait" is not a realistic analogy
  331. @chromakode:    also keep in mind that the jezebel article is designed  to be as dramagenic and gray area as possible
  332. aphoenix:       Doxxing isn't illegal, but then again, neither are the Creepshots things.
  333. ManWithoutModem:        or........nevermind
  334. @chromakode:    so, back in our shoes for a moment
  335. doxing gets posted to an external site
  336. we remove said site
  337. attention-grabbing news sites start to report that doxing happens
  338. what can we do that is constructive then?
  339. @kemitche:      it's 1 pm here and I haven't eaten yet. I'm happy to discuss more later, but I do also have a bunch of other stuff I'm supposed to be getting done.
  340. Rswany: Go feast
  341. solidwhetstone: thank you for coming by @kemitche
  342. ManWithoutModem:        remove every single thing that discusses the doxxing
  343. redtaboo:       kemitche~ thank you, please have some pie for lunch!
  344. MillenniumFalc0n:       ^
  345. @chromakode:    drama distracts us massively from improving the site because we all care about it
  346. sodypop:        The news site doxes a redditor itself, it does not only contain a link to the preddito tumblr, but personal name and photo linked to a reddit user in the article.
  347. @kemitche:      redtaboo: I think I will :) solidwhetstone: You're welcome. I'm sorry about the semi-long silence.
  348. ManWithoutModem:        I'm going to sleep since I haven't slept in forever, I hope to come back to some good questions and some good answers in like 9 hours
  349. keep it going ladies and gents ;)
  350. @chromakode:    sodypop, totally true
  351. ManWithoutModem:        and to the admins-thanks for coming out of the woodwork to talk to us
  352. :       kemitche is now known as kemitche_afk
  353. aphoenix:       mods: I think that just saying "we see what's happening - we care - we don't have much we could do" is enough for me.
  354. solidwhetstone: since it seems like things are wrapping up- just a quick thank you to the admins for swinging by. i think we are all on the same page that we all love reddit and don't want it to fall apart.
  355. aphoenix:       Personally, I really appreciate that.
  356. @chromakode:    rest well ManWithoutModem
  357. of course, solidwhetstone, discussions like this improve reddit too
  358. let's try to keep level headed and not immediately leap to reddit falling apart due to some drama over which posts were removed
  359. :       MobileFalc0n has joined #modtalk
  360. solidwhetstone: well digg has proven that one event can cause a social site to fall apart
  361. sodypop:        So, personal information is on the jezebel article directly. It's also a call for a witch hunt. We've agreed on that so far, right?
  362. @chromakode:    and we get to prove that we're stronger than that
  363. these sort of issues aren't going to stop happening. we're going to have more gray areas and controversial issues the more the site grows
  364. @cupcake1713:   digg fell apart for totally different reasons, solidwhetstone
  365. sodypop:        And so I understand this, the reasoning for not removing the ejzebel article is because fear of a streisand effect?
  366. @chromakode:    sodypop, yeah, I hear ya
  367. sodypop, I'm not saying that's the reasoning
  368. I want to hear your opinion on whether removing it is constructive to reddit
  369. solidwhetstone: @cupcake- i know- but a big part of what makes reddit successful is moderation. and if the mods lose faith in the system, they will leave. if they leave, the quality will decrease.
  370. sodypop:        I feel it is destructive to the trust between reddit user/mod and the admins.
  371. We need a reasonable amount of assurance that if our personal details are spread across reddit, that some action will be taken.
  372. ZeroShift:      ^
  373. DEADB33F:       probably not constructive, once the removal becomes common knowledge you'll soon have your attention-grabbing news sites starting to report that "reddit admins are actively protecting child pornographers."
  374. MillenniumFalc0n:       As someone who has been threatened with doxxing several times already, I'm a little disheartened.
  375. DEADB33F:       and other such ridiculous headlines.
  376. MillenniumFalc0n:       those headlines already exists
  377. People that hate reddit (SRS) are going to hate reddit no matter what we do
  378. DEADB33F:       Yeah, but not that the admins are directly involved.
  379. @chromakode:    sodypop, I completely, 100% get that, and feel strongly about that
  380. DEADB33F:       Which is totally different.
  381. MillenniumFalc0n:       It says "reddit is protecting child pornographers"
  382. definitely implying that the site as a whole is doing it
  383. redtaboo:       chromakode~ I get what you guys are saying about it being already offsite and you can't control that
  384. MillenniumFalc0n:       I wish there was an easy solution guys, but I appreciate y'all coming out to discuss with us
  385. redtaboo:       but, really.. who else but reddit is going to care?
  386. so, if it's not on reddit then the proliferation and possiblity of witch hunt goes way down
  387. @chromakode:    MillenniumFalc0n, there'll almost never be an easy solution
  388. MillenniumFalc0n:       chromakode: comes with the territory.You shouldn't have let Reddit get so popular :P
  389. redtaboo:       And, with that, I don't necessarily mean the post that's up now (though this is why I want it removed)
  390. @chromakode:    redtaboo, gotcha
  391. before we debate that, I'd like to say first off that I think what you guys are doing is fantastic and that this is the sort of relationship I'd like to see between the admins and the mods (but with less drama, please)
  392. redtaboo:       completely agree with you
  393. sodypop:        It's great that we're even having this convo, albeit later than we as mods would have liked.
  394. @chromakode:    I totally like to see the mods politely and constructively calling us out when necessary
  395. sodypop:        I still am confused at the reason for not removing links to the jezebel article, however.
  396. @chromakode:    sodypop, it's unfortunate, but there's not much we can do about that :(
  397. I hear that sodypop
  398. sodypop:        chromakode, not to mention awful timing with the Internet 2012 bus tour leaving you short a GM.
  399. @chromakode:    totally
  400. GuitarFreak:    and on dac's second "official" day too
  401. @cupcake1713:   haha sodypop, i was on the bus tour and just got back yesterday
  402. @chromakode:    trying to figure out how to discuss that when there's not much I can do about removing or not removing that specific link
  403. @cupcake1713:   and came back to this
  404. sodypop:        cupcake1713, welcome back :)
  405. redtaboo:       ^^^^
  406. @cupcake1713:   heh thanks
  407. redtaboo:       sorry we jumped on you earlier
  408. @chromakode:    yeah seriously guys
  409. if there's one additional thing I'd like to see come out of this, it's figuring out how to approach a similar situation in the future better
  410. not to derail from the discussion we're having right now, though
  411. @cupcake1713:   it's okay redtaboo, i understand how confusing/stressful/etc this must have been for everyone
  412. GuitarFreak:    it was rather funny that you joined, everyone jumped on you, and you left 2 minutes later
  413. @cupcake1713:   :)
  414. @chromakode:    so, sodypop, redtaboo: regarding the jezebel article
  415. I agree with you that its title and positioning evokes vigilanteism
  416. and that it contains screenshots from the primary doxing source containing PI
  417. :       soupyhands has joined #modtalk
  418. @chromakode:    those are objective facts
  419. GuitarFreak:    chromakode: a bit off topic, but at some point, would you be willing to discuss SRS with us?
  420. @chromakode:    GuitarFreak, I'm don't think I'm the right person to do so,
  421. GuitarFreak:    alright
  422. @chromakode:    it looks like Dac responded to some comments about it in the recent blog post comment thread
  423. redtaboo:       chromakode~ would it be fair to say that the original doxxing source is not a valid source for anything?
  424. @chromakode:    redtaboo, that it could be false info, you mean?
  425. redtaboo:       yes
  426. @chromakode:    totally, this is the internet
  427. redtaboo:       okay, knowing all this I can't see what good can come from leaving it up. only bad
  428. @chromakode:    the jezebel article?
  429. redtaboo:       ys
  430. *yes
  431. @chromakode:    and what good would removing it do? prevent more people from seeing that information as a result of reddit?
  432. redtaboo:       yes, as I said most of the interest in that is from reddit
  433. @chromakode:    I think we can make an argument independent from where the interest is coming from
  434. redtaboo:       I'm quite sure many 2xcers have no idea what is going on
  435. aphoenix:       chromakode - i follow you. I'm looking at a pros / cons list. I can't really see what removing it has in the "pros" list. Other than sticking to one's guns re: personal information...
  436. redtaboo:       Other than sticking to one's guns re: personal information... http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/11brz4/can_anyone_help_identify_this_bikini_ive_seen_it/ http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/11bh11/verify_every_account_that_wishes_to_participate/
  437. it would definitely solve 90% of the drama we see
  438. @kemitche:      (Which is why I get a bit flustered when people try to compare two instances from a high level, rather than examining the specific contexts involved)
  439. Raerth: I'm of the opinion that if you only ever compare case-by-case, then you're always playing catchup. Sometimes you need to make sweeping decisions from a high level just so everyone can understand where the line is drawn
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