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Carroll #332

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May 6th, 2020
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  1. Apr 29 19:09:09 <barredowl> .s carroll 332
  2. Apr 29 19:09:10 <Secretary_Helen> barredowl: Carroll #332: The Snitch Dungeons (Rating: +64. Written 2 years ago By: ObserverSeptember) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/snitchdungeons
  3. Apr 29 19:09:12 <barredowl> read time
  4. Apr 29 19:13:07 <barredowl> alright, i've finished
  5. Apr 29 19:13:14 <DrMoned> 👍
  6. Apr 29 19:13:16 <cybersqyd> same
  7. Apr 29 19:13:35 <barredowl> alright, i think we'll wait on red3 once they're done
  8. Apr 29 19:13:36 <red3> Finished.
  9. Apr 29 19:13:38 <Penguin> Same
  10. Apr 29 19:13:54 <red3> Who wants to start?
  11. Apr 29 19:13:57 <barredowl> okay, so let's get discussing
  12. Apr 29 19:14:03 <barredowl> so, first impressions?
  13. Apr 29 19:14:21 <cybersqyd> it has a weird charm to it?
  14. Apr 29 19:14:22 <barredowl> i personally really liked the tone of the whole thing
  15. Apr 29 19:14:25 <cybersqyd> yeah
  16. Apr 29 19:14:28 <Penguin> It's true, Chicago does have a snitch problem.
  17. Apr 29 19:14:37 <cybersqyd> they should employ more seekers
  18. Apr 29 19:14:41 <barredowl> feels like a guy in a backalley munching on a cigarette and telling you about it
  19. Apr 29 19:14:49 <cybersqyd> yeah
  20. Apr 29 19:14:52 <cybersqyd> it's kinda neat
  21. Apr 29 19:15:09 <barredowl> feels like a really secretive thing, to me
  22. Apr 29 19:15:17 <barredowl> kinda like a pamphlet of sorts
  23. Apr 29 19:15:20 <red3> The RAISA thing about outdated terms is really convenient because there's a lot of terms in here that just don't make sense. Like using "The Great War" when this takes place in Chicago, calling them "snitches", etc.
  24. Apr 29 19:15:49 <barredowl> yeah, i found that pretty helpful and neat at times.
  25. Apr 29 19:16:50 <barredowl> i feel like this is a very interesting avenue to look at a goi, i think
  26. Apr 29 19:16:55 <red3> It doesn't really do anything else but act as a plot device, though. All of the footnotes could work as just conventional ones, and RAISA is only really mentioned because this takes place in the 1920s.
  27. Apr 29 19:16:58 <red3> barredowl: That's true.
  28. Apr 29 19:17:12 <barredowl> yeah.
  29. Apr 29 19:17:28 <SharpEmbrace> I enjoy the personal tone.
  30. Apr 29 19:17:40 <barredowl> i do kinda like the idea of an anomalous solution to a real thing which happened in the prohibition era
  31. Apr 29 19:17:44 <SharpEmbrace> It puts a very different spin on the events unfolding
  32. Apr 29 19:17:48 <cybersqyd> I think it feels a touch...lacking? Like, it's missing something but I'm not sure what
  33. Apr 29 19:17:52 <barredowl> that being, people getting locked up and killed for spilling the beans on speakesies
  34. Apr 29 19:18:00 <barredowl> yeah, i got that same vibe
  35. Apr 29 19:18:05 <barredowl> felt like something was missing
  36. Apr 29 19:18:25 <SharpEmbrace> The business as usual vibe is powerful, but there's not really much of a climax.
  37. Apr 29 19:18:30 <cybersqyd> yeah
  38. Apr 29 19:18:32 <red3> There's little to no emotional impact to what's happening in the dungeons at all. There's some descriptions about how the snitches get betrayed and how the rooms are bigger than New York and how it's terrible, but it never shows any of that.
  39. Apr 29 19:18:47 <barredowl> yeah, i didn't exactly know what to feel at the end, come to think of it
  40. Apr 29 19:18:47 <cybersqyd> Yeah; I think it tries to leave too much of that to the imagination
  41. Apr 29 19:18:54 <SharpEmbrace> They tell us about the screams
  42. Apr 29 19:18:58 <barredowl> i just kinda left it thinking "huh" and not really anything specific
  43. Apr 29 19:19:00 <SharpEmbrace> but that should be setup for something
  44. Apr 29 19:19:03 <cybersqyd> Like, it's really *telling* us about how horrible it is rather than *showing* it
  45. Apr 29 19:19:07 <barredowl> there's no emotional value i really derived from this
  46. Apr 29 19:19:09 <SharpEmbrace> on its own, that doesn't complete the story
  47. Apr 29 19:19:22 <SharpEmbrace> there's significant build-up without pay-off
  48. Apr 29 19:19:25 <red3> It spends all this time building up how dangerous this thing is, and then just doesn't do anything with it. It would work better as a kind of urban legend if it just didn't describe what happened in the rooms at all.
  49. Apr 29 19:19:29 <SharpEmbrace> which makes it disappointing for me
  50. Apr 29 19:19:35 <barredowl> yeah, it just kinda fizzles out at the end
  51. Apr 29 19:19:35 <red3> SharpEmbrace: Exactly.
  52. Apr 29 19:19:47 <barredowl> but the tone i think more than makes up for that
  53. Apr 29 19:20:18 <cybersqyd> Do y'all think it'd feel stronger without the final note then?
  54. Apr 29 19:20:34 <barredowl> i'm not exactly sure
  55. Apr 29 19:20:38 <cybersqyd> yeah
  56. Apr 29 19:21:00 <cybersqyd> I think it's the weakest point of the article but also that removing it would really highlight the lack of narrative meat?
  57. Apr 29 19:21:01 <barredowl> i think it adds a new dimension, and it could be reworked i think, but at the end of the day it might come across as perfunctory?
  58. Apr 29 19:21:15 <red3> Another thing I think this suffers from is how similar it is to the original SCP format. The first and second sections can easily be condensed into something like the containment procedures, the third is the discovery log, and the fourth is the description. It feels very disjointed because there isn't a clear place where it can actually be described.
  59. Apr 29 19:21:20 <SharpEmbrace> I think the note /should/ be there but changed a little
  60. Apr 29 19:21:22 <SharpEmbrace> and
  61. Apr 29 19:21:38 <cybersqyd> red3: yeah I can agree; it feels a touch too much like an informally written scp
  62. Apr 29 19:21:38 <SharpEmbrace> with some more powerful horror to give the note some gravitas
  63. Apr 29 19:21:42 <barredowl> red3: yeah, and i think that is a problem with a lot of gois.
  64. Apr 29 19:22:03 <barredowl> on the extreme end of the scale, you have something like commission on unusual cargo, to use a goi i'm familiar with
  65. Apr 29 19:22:09 <barredowl> it's literally an older version of the foundation
  66. Apr 29 19:22:19 <cybersqyd> I think they get away with a little because of that
  67. Apr 29 19:22:24 <barredowl> and from a cursory glance a lot of goi formats are a little too similar to the base scp format?
  68. Apr 29 19:22:41 <SharpEmbrace> thing is though
  69. Apr 29 19:22:44 <SharpEmbrace> spc is similar
  70. Apr 29 19:22:54 <red3> Other GoIs also fall into this trap like UIU and CI, but there are plenty which allow for new interpretations of anomalies like Serpent's Hand.
  71. Apr 29 19:22:55 <SharpEmbrace> but thematically and tonally it's completely different
  72. Apr 29 19:23:00 <SharpEmbrace> that's what I enjoy
  73. Apr 29 19:23:02 <cybersqyd> CI is just a bad format imo
  74. Apr 29 19:23:07 <barredowl> i think chicago spirit tonally and thematically differs a lot from scp format
  75. Apr 29 19:23:10 <cybersqyd> yeah
  76. Apr 29 19:23:19 <barredowl> yeah, uiu and ci are way too similar i feel
  77. Apr 29 19:23:27 <SharpEmbrace> barredowl: I don't think that's taken advantage of as much as it could be though.
  78. Apr 29 19:23:29 <barredowl> chaos insurgency kinda has a speech vibe to it that i like
  79. Apr 29 19:23:33 <barredowl> like a pulpit speaking
  80. Apr 29 19:23:40 <barredowl> but other than that it's pretty uniform from what i've seen
  81. Apr 29 19:24:02 <cybersqyd> the UIU format is just....bad? I don't think it's issue is 'too close to SCP' but 'too narrow for storytelling'
  82. Apr 29 19:24:14 <barredowl> i can see that
  83. Apr 29 19:24:25 <cybersqyd> (I wrote one and mostly I got it to work by absolutely ruining the format)
  84. Apr 29 19:24:38 <cybersqyd> (even then, at +27 it doesn't *really* work
  85. Apr 29 19:24:42 <red3> I agree that, tonally, this is pretty good if a bit "stereotypical Chicago/New York/Boston gangster". I just wished that it explored more of its topics instead of just trying to stick to the original format.
  86. Apr 29 19:24:49 <cybersqyd> yeah
  87. Apr 29 19:24:56 <barredowl> i could see chicago spirit being a nice avenue to explore how the foundation interacted with gois earlier on
  88. Apr 29 19:25:09 <barredowl> considering it is literally GOI-001
  89. Apr 29 19:25:16 <SharpEmbrace> It feels afraid to be divergent, if that makes sense.
  90. Apr 29 19:25:42 <red3> Like, the "How We Made It" section was great. Good storytelling although a bit too short at the end.
  91. Apr 29 19:25:49 <SharpEmbrace> Doesn't break the mold enough for its character to shine through and carry an otherwise lacking story
  92. Apr 29 19:26:03 <cybersqyd> How We Made It is a fun read but it feels....oddly titled?
  93. Apr 29 19:26:12 <cybersqyd> It's much more 'why we made it' in style
  94. Apr 29 19:26:14 <red3> SharpEmbrace: Yeah. It tries to stick to the SCP format too much instead of embracing its own nicheness.
  95. Apr 29 19:26:32 <barredowl> that can be a problem with a lot of things, including the scp format
  96. Apr 29 19:26:39 <barredowl> trying to stick to the template way too much
  97. Apr 29 19:26:56 <SharpEmbrace> Also
  98. Apr 29 19:27:02 <barredowl> so yeah, i would say there's definitely a lot to improve with here
  99. Apr 29 19:27:08 <SharpEmbrace> I don't get much of a feel for the character of the person writing this
  100. Apr 29 19:27:14 <SharpEmbrace> which i think is a missed opportunity
  101. Apr 29 19:27:23 <barredowl> yeah, i kinda felt emotionally detached from a lot of this
  102. Apr 29 19:27:28 <barredowl> didn't really feel too much
  103. Apr 29 19:27:47 <SharpEmbrace> He's kind of just narrating facts without much of his personal thoughts
  104. Apr 29 19:28:09 <BlueJones> The CS needs more spark imo this piece doesnt leave wanting for more
  105. Apr 29 19:28:31 <barredowl> yeah, this feels like the start of something
  106. Apr 29 19:28:34 <barredowl> a foundation, if you will
  107. Apr 29 19:28:39 <red3> I think that exploring the narrator would be good, but for this article specifically it's a bad idea. It's already tossing up two ideas: a history piece on CS and a horror piece with the dungeons themselves. So, adding an additional layer would just bog everything down more.
  108. Apr 29 19:28:58 <barredowl> adding that layer would bring down the piece, i agree.
  109. Apr 29 19:29:27 <barredowl> but was it exactly a horror piece? it didn't really explore that part of the piece too well i think
  110. Apr 29 19:29:49 <SharpEmbrace> I think it would work better with some horror to complement the historical aspects.
  111. Apr 29 19:29:53 <cybersqyd> I think it's an attempt at horror even if it's not really a success at that?
  112. Apr 29 19:29:57 <SharpEmbrace> ^
  113. Apr 29 19:30:00 <barredowl> i can see that
  114. Apr 29 19:30:05 <BlueJones> Agreed
  115. Apr 29 19:30:08 <barredowl> that would be something i would want to see explored here
  116. Apr 29 19:30:11 <cybersqyd> Like it's really framed as if the dungeons are terrifying
  117. Apr 29 19:30:18 <red3> Exactly. If this just embraced its history elements and leaned more into that, it would be a lot better.
  118. Apr 29 19:30:18 <SharpEmbrace> > And we know they scream so loud we had to soundproof the building.
  119. Apr 29 19:30:24 <SharpEmbrace> this line particularly
  120. Apr 29 19:30:27 <cybersqyd> yeah
  121. Apr 29 19:30:33 <SharpEmbrace> It's half-arsed both ways
  122. Apr 29 19:30:46 <red3> Yeah, it feels like it's trying too hard but also not trying at all to be horrifying.
  123. Apr 29 19:30:56 <barredowl> it kinda feels generic in that regard, and it doesn't lean into that "this is 1920's prohibition era" as much as i'd like it to
  124. Apr 29 19:31:07 <barredowl> if that makes sense
  125. Apr 29 19:31:16 <cybersqyd> technically 1930s ;p
  126. Apr 29 19:31:28 <red3> "Oooh, it's so scary that the victims scream so loud we had to soundproof it", but also "Oh, so people just scream really loud when they enter?"
  127. Apr 29 19:31:33 <barredowl> well, yeah :p
  128. Apr 29 19:31:35 <SharpEmbrace> it's trying too hard to keep us in the dark about the monster
  129. Apr 29 19:31:55 <SharpEmbrace> just telling us that there's a monster and that we should be afraid isn't enough
  130. Apr 29 19:32:00 <cybersqyd> yeah
  131. Apr 29 19:32:22 <red3> And even worse is that it just shoves an explanation in at the very end without properly preparing it.
  132. Apr 29 19:32:22 <SharpEmbrace> We need to feel the drip of the monster's salive dripping on our shoulder, figuratively speaking
  133. Apr 29 19:32:27 <SharpEmbrace> and we don't really have that
  134. Apr 29 19:32:47 <SharpEmbrace> red3: Yeah, the explanation feels like a resolution without a conflict?
  135. Apr 29 19:33:00 <barredowl> while it makes sense that the chicago spirit in-universe would silence the snitches, it doesn't work story-wise when you're trying to make a horror piece
  136. Apr 29 19:33:19 <barredowl> figuratively silence. like not giving them a voice or opinion in this story.
  137. Apr 29 19:33:25 <barredowl> just kinda... leaving it be.
  138. Apr 29 19:33:31 <red3> I'm not sure that would be possible with the way that is is formatted, though. Since the Chicago Spirit created this, it's treated more as a tool rather than a monster, so it's extraordinarily difficult to make it scary.
  139. Apr 29 19:33:45 <barredowl> yeah
  140. Apr 29 19:33:59 <cybersqyd> hm
  141. Apr 29 19:34:02 <SharpEmbrace> i'd think it would be nice
  142. Apr 29 19:34:06 <red3> It's like just presenting a knife and expecting the audience to be scared. They're not afraid of the knife specifically, they're afraid of the person that's wielding it.
  143. Apr 29 19:34:10 <SharpEmbrace> to see a hardened mobster snitch
  144. Apr 29 19:34:23 <SharpEmbrace> and be broken to pieces in the face of an incomprehensible evil
  145. Apr 29 19:34:57 <SharpEmbrace> and a remorseless "just business" attitude to what seems to be extreme torture
  146. Apr 29 19:34:58 <barredowl> yeah, if you can't show the horrors from the inside of the bedrooms, show them from the outside
  147. Apr 29 19:35:08 <SharpEmbrace> that's the thing
  148. Apr 29 19:35:10 <barredowl> i would like to see this piece lean into that more
  149. Apr 29 19:35:34 <SharpEmbrace> the screams are meaningless, as I have so little context for them
  150. Apr 29 19:35:46 <barredowl> exactly
  151. Apr 29 19:36:23 <barredowl> hmm.
  152. Apr 29 19:36:23 <cybersqyd> I think if the 'Who Knows About It' section was at the end, you could use it to really like, craft a better horror?
  153. Apr 29 19:36:51 <cybersqyd> Cos like, the idea of them telling folk about how awful it is as intimidation is a decent angle to show the reader why it's terrifying
  154. Apr 29 19:37:20 <barredowl> yeah
  155. Apr 29 19:37:39 <SharpEmbrace> actually
  156. Apr 29 19:37:40 <cybersqyd> But cos it's at the start, it can't really do more than vaguely describe it
  157. Apr 29 19:37:44 <SharpEmbrace> i have an idea
  158. Apr 29 19:37:48 <SharpEmbrace> what if one o the snitches
  159. Apr 29 19:38:01 <SharpEmbrace> was someone who spoke too much about the caroll itself
  160. Apr 29 19:38:07 <barredowl> yep, that's kind of a problem there
  161. Apr 29 19:38:41 <cybersqyd> mm maybe
  162. Apr 29 19:38:50 <barredowl> perhaps
  163. Apr 29 19:39:05 <barredowl> there is an interesting story stowed away in the story told here
  164. Apr 29 19:39:08 <SharpEmbrace> maybe you could take an angle where you give the building some implied consciousness
  165. Apr 29 19:39:10 <SharpEmbrace> like,
  166. Apr 29 19:39:19 <barredowl> maybe
  167. Apr 29 19:39:25 <red3> The format could be spiced up with some possible ideas, but just taking the format as is, I don't think it can pull off horror. It's just too detached and too distant to really make the reader relate to the people that are being tortured in the dungeons.
  168. Apr 29 19:39:33 <SharpEmbrace> he goes to the place as usual, and it takes him in without anyone pushing him in
  169. Apr 29 19:39:51 <cybersqyd> red3: tbf you could say the same about the SCP format, and it succeeds at horror
  170. Apr 29 19:40:06 <SharpEmbrace> then they later connect the dots, and we're left with the implication that it doesn't want us to know
  171. Apr 29 19:40:06 <barredowl> red3: exactly. i think it's a place to tell more personal tales, but not horror that well
  172. Apr 29 19:40:09 <cybersqyd> But then, I think it's more amenable to like, interview logs
  173. Apr 29 19:41:09 <barredowl> i don't know how this format would pull off addenda
  174. Apr 29 19:41:18 <barredowl> cause this is more of a pamphlet
  175. Apr 29 19:41:35 <cybersqyd> I mean, this one has an addenda
  176. Apr 29 19:41:39 <barredowl> and if you have too much, it kinda ruins that mood of "this is something passed around by one person"
  177. Apr 29 19:41:41 <cybersqyd> yeah
  178. Apr 29 19:41:43 <barredowl> but it's like, fairly short
  179. Apr 29 19:41:59 <SharpEmbrace> i think it can generate horror when the narration is used more creatively as a POV for the reader
  180. Apr 29 19:41:59 <cybersqyd> I think you could do an interview if it was fairly short say.
  181. Apr 29 19:42:12 <barredowl> yeah, perhaps
  182. Apr 29 19:42:30 <red3> The reason that SCP is more horrifying is usually due to either the implications an anomaly provides or through an addenda which describes how the anomaly works in a more intimate fashion. An endless hole isn't horrifying unless you yourself fall into it or something else comes up from it.
  183. Apr 29 19:42:32 <barredowl> this feels like the kind of goi format that would be good for like, somebody addressing the reader
  184. Apr 29 19:42:49 <barredowl> this is less "this is a thing describing a thing" and more "let me tell you about this thing"
  185. Apr 29 19:43:07 <Calibri_Bold> ^
  186. Apr 29 19:43:10 <red3> Whereas this just goes, "Yeah there was a hole and we push people into it sometimes".
  187. Apr 29 19:43:12 <BlueJones> Honestly, this idea could work on an scp format or the parawatch, just to crank up that horror
  188. Apr 29 19:43:23 <cybersqyd> god this would be an excellent parawatch
  189. Apr 29 19:43:32 <barredowl> hell yeah, i think it could make one
  190. Apr 29 19:43:49 <barredowl> okay, so i think we'll be wrapping up our talk on this one
  191. Apr 29 19:43:55 <barredowl> so, final thoughts
  192. Apr 29 19:43:55 <barredowl> ?
  193. Apr 29 19:44:16 <cybersqyd> I like the pictures
  194. Apr 29 19:44:24 <SharpEmbrace> lacks a strong climax, which makes the ending weak
  195. Apr 29 19:44:28 <BlueJones> Not scary, but its format does leave for a nice personal tone if done correctly
  196. Apr 29 19:44:46 <SharpEmbrace> i like the pictures, but the way they're formatted is kind of jarring
  197. Apr 29 19:44:46 <barredowl> yeah, the pictures are a nice touch
  198. Apr 29 19:44:53 <red3> This articles fails to pull off the horror and only really succeeds in giving a slightly stale history lesson about the CS.
  199. Apr 29 19:45:10 <barredowl> i like the framing device a touch
  200. Apr 29 19:45:16 <barredowl> red3: agreed.
  201. Apr 29 19:45:45 <red3> If it leaned into the latter and had more interesting topics than just, "We were small, now we're big and we have to make sure that people don't speak out against us", then it could work a lot better and be a lot more interesting.
  202. Apr 29 19:46:18 <barredowl> i think it could work that way.
  203. Apr 29 19:46:32 <barredowl> but for now it just feels like the base of something interesting without much of real intrigue.
  204. Apr 29 19:46:36 <barredowl> huh
  205. Apr 29 19:46:46 <SharpEmbrace> definitely lacking
  206. Apr 29 19:47:06 <barredowl> yeah.
  207. Apr 29 19:47:16 <barredowl> i think that's the thing with a lot of earlier goi formats in a series
  208. Apr 29 19:47:24 <barredowl> a group of interest series, i mean
  209. Apr 29 19:47:37 <barredowl> they don't have much to work off of, so they're still kinda scrambling for identity
  210. Apr 29 19:47:49 <barredowl> i can attest, as somebody who wrote for a goi with only a goi format and a tale :P
  211. Apr 29 19:48:00 <red3> It's still finding its feet, and it doesn't want to stray too far away from the original format.
  212. Apr 29 19:48:28 <barredowl> i agree.
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