Karl Gotch on 80s wrestling

1990 Karl Gotch interview: The Wrestling Observer August 1990

"JB: First of all, it's a pleasure to do this interview. I think some of the fans would like to know your opinion on what is good and bad as far as the two major U.S. promotions and the three major Japanese promotions?

KG: Well, for the moment there is only one promotion that is good because the rest of them are all the same. That's the UWF. When I started with new Japan, I helped them get off the ground because they were blocked from all angles. I got him (Antonio Inoki) the talent but Inoki went into debt and had to work it off fro a long time. That's when they were called Tokyo Pro Wrestling. Inoki's partner went undercover because of the debt and he begged me to help him because he wanted to build Japanese wrestling back is like wrestling is supposed to be. You know, where they actually show some wrestling. After about a year this guy came out of hiding when it was ok. Then slowly New Japan became like other promotions. There are only two kinds. Bad and worse. They are all the same. They don't think anything of the sport. Even in boxing, at least they represent the sport. The other promotions today have nothing to do with wrestling. Like New York (WWF), they don't know anything about the sport. The older McMahon (Vince Sr.) was the son of a boxing promoter. The new McMahon started as a TV announcer after flunking out of military school, then did a little promoting and now it's the same old thing. The way they promote is like slow death, burnt dirt. It's like Attilla the Hun. You know, I don't even watch it anymore. The last time I did I realized it. American people are very caught up with football. You know, because of the contact. But it takes them three hours to play one hour of football and then you might have six or seven minutes of actual contact. When I see it on TV, it's like Politics. Talk, Talk, all they do is talk. Nobody thinks for themselves. And they have the cheerleaders. It's entertainment. That's why they now have five minute matches and play the music. It's short and sweet. All they've got now are giants, freaks and steroid freaks.

JB: One of the things Larry Malenko said to me was that the NWA is the same as the WWF.

KG: Yeah. That's what kills the NWA. It's monkey see, monkey do. It's like when Inoki promised me he would bring Japanese wrestling back up. At the same time, he got his way and (Hisashi) Shinma slowly pushed me out. But I didn't care because I had already established guidelines there for the start of the UWF.

JB: A question about Akira Maeda. I've always heard that before he left new Japan in 1984 to form the UWF that if he had stayed with new Japan and been the good office boy that he would have been Inoki's replacement?

KG: No, that's not true. Inoki is like the old saying, he won't just die, he'll just slowly fade. Look at Baba. Inoki is a guy with no mercy. He used to be my friend. I helped the guy.

JB: You trained Inoki, correct?

KG: Well, yes, but not really trained. When he was a boy he did some Sumo, like all Japanese boys and some Judo and he was an amateur Wrestler. So he thought he was tough. So one time I told him there is a world of difference. So he wanted to find out and we went about a minute and a half and I blocked him and puffed his face up and the mat was full of blood. So then he asked me to help him. That was when he was still working for Japan Pro Wrestling. But you know, the guy is not an honest man. He is the Lon Chaney of the wrestling world. He talks real nice.

JB: A man of a thousand faces?

KG: Yeah.

JB: Getting to the United States, when you say McMahon has the freaks and the steroid guys, do you think the NWA guys are better athletes?

KG: No, they're all the same. No one works out. They all push weights a little and take that stuff that makes themselves look good. I mean to be a good show wrestler, you should at least practice wrestling. Now all you have is routines. Before, when you went somewhere, no matter what part of the world you were from, you could wrestle with the guys. Now these guys can't. They're stuck on the same old thing and their matches are always the same. It's like a song and dance routine. The only thing missing is the music.

JB: What's your opinion of the All Japan Promotion?

KG: The same thing. They don't build wrestling. The only one that builds wrestling is the UWF. They took what I gave them and they built it. Now they're asking me to help them back again because they can't make any new talent. It takes time. That's why they go once a month. You don't see boxers fighting every night. A real athlete has to work out.

JB: I want to ask your thoughts on some of the different names and personalities in wrestling over the years. First of all, Akira Maeda, but before you comment on him, there are some stories going around that there is a rift between you and Maeda. Is that true?

KG: No. He's a young guy. Naturally when you are successful everyone is around and people are always blowing smoke up his ass. People got him into kickboxing. I told him hey, that's not the way to go.

JB: You are talking about placing the emphasis on kicking?

KG: Yeah. I've got nothing against that. But then they went overboard. It looked like a soccer match. It's easy. Anybody can kick.

JB: It requires less training is what you are saying?

KG: And no brains. Wrestling is the hardest and most difficult sport in the world. You have to have it all. They asked me in Japan what you need to be a good wrestler. I said you need it all. You've got to be strong, like a weightlifter, and by that I mean a competitive weightlifter, not a bodybuilder. You've got to be agile like an acrobat. You've got to have the endurance of a middle distance runner, the quickness of a sprinter and the mind of a chess player. You have three positions you have to fight from, standing on, on the knees and from underneath. I'll tell you something that used to make me laugh. When people heard I was from Europe they would say Oh Europe, that's real wrestling. Let me tell you, in those days, the best wrestlers were the Americans, whether they were real pro's or show wrestlers. But the promoters killed them. Wherever the Americans went in the world, when wrestlers heard they were Americans the guys used to shrink their a******* and go Uh, Oh. Nobody fooled with them. But now they've become clowns.

JB: So the Americans don't have the respect abroad?

KG: No more. And they had it. In the 50's there was nobody who could touch them. But their ability was killed when television started. And that's what is killing them again.

JB: You know, some people seem to think that wrestling runs in cycles. It was real hot in the 50's, then it more or less was out of the spotlight for almost 25 years and then it emerged again in what was called the wrestling boom. Do you foresee wrestling going through another lull and then re-emerging?

KG: No. This time they're going to kill it for good. Years ago, when wrestling was on TV, the TV stations paid for it, just like they do in Japan now. They needed a surplus of wrestlers. They wanted quantity, not quality. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to expose anything like those football players. You know those guys who said they didn't get a break. The ones who said the promoters were against them in Georgia. Who the hell were they? They weren't wrestlers anyway.

JB: Are you talking about Thunderbolt Patterson and Jim Wilson and Eddy Mansfield?

KG: That's it. That's not me. You cut your nose then you cut your face. I've got nothing against wrestling because it did something for me. When I was a boy, I was a smithy. Then I traveled all over the world and then I came to America. That's what I wanted all my life. I became a U.S. citizen. I made a lot of money in Europe. I didn't have to come to America for that. I didn't make a lot of money here. Over there, I was already well known.

JB: You were in the 1948 Olympics?

KG: Yeah. I was a lightweight. I trained down for it. Anyway, those guys were bitching like they didn't get anything. I didn't get anything here. All that I have now I got from being a Coach in Japan. I was working regular, getting paid regularly for three years.

JB: Do you have a contract with the UWF to train the guys?

KG: No, I never believed in contracts. Contracts are a bunch of crap. I just go on a handshake. They need me now and asked me back. But it is not so easy to train someone. You know, a lot of people say they trained with me, but they didn't.

JB: Can you give me some examples of guys who claimed you trained them that you didn't?

KG: I heard so many guys say Oh, I trained with Gotch and then I look at them like&. Now Joe Malenko, he spent some time with me. About seven years. He had guts. He had spent about a year with me on conditioning and he asked me what I thought. I said You want me to tell you? Well, your conditioning is better than cow shit. When you start building, you got to start in the basement and build up.

JB: In other words, when you build a house, you don't start at the top, you start at the bottom?

KG: That's right. You start with the legs. Then the chest. Then you do bridges and gymnastics. You just work your way up. Don't get me wrong. He's (Joe Malenko) got it. His brother don't got it.

JB: You mean Dean Malenko?

KG: Yeah. He's just another daffodil just jumping around. Because when the other guy would put him on the mat he wouldn't even come up for a look. He'd cry like a baby. It's just like the Briscos. Jerry was, well&. Joe Malenko is alright, though.

JB: Are you saying that Jack Brisco had a lot of wrestling ability but his brother didn't have so much?

KG: He got big off the reputation of his brother. It's the same thing again. It's funny, it happened twice in the same year (Tampa).

JB: Getting back to some of the names, how about Satoru Sayama. Was he your greatest student ever?

KG: Yes!

JB: Better than Yoshiaki Fujiwara?

KG: Well, different. Sayama was more agile. Fujiwara was bigger. Sayama went out on his own and they pushed him. Then they tried to starve him. That's how Inoki is. That's what I meant when I talked about Inoki and Maeda.. Maeda never had a chance with Inoki. One of my boys, Kido. He's a hell of a performer and a good wrestler because I trained him. He was a good looking kid, too. Typical Japanese. Kind of chunky. But old shovel face, he killed the kid stone dead. You look at the partners Inoki would always have. He'd get a big guy, somebody bigger than him who was good for nothing, (Shozo) Kobayashi, (Seiji) Sakaguchi. They were only good for making s*** out of rice.

JB: Were you surprised that Inoki got elected to the Japanese Parliament?

KG: No, because he's a smart man. He got the following and he's in the eye of the public. It's just like me. I can't do nothing wrong over there. If they like you, you're in.

JB: Since your lie revolves so much around wrestling, does it bother you that your best student Sayama, went to all the flying moves?

KG: No. As long as he did some wrestling with it. Because to me, the match was to make sense.

JB: What about his matches with Tony Billington (Dynamite Kid)?

KG: Well, they were too acrobatic.

JB: You thought that was too much?

KG: Yeah. You know you should act like an athlete and look like one. You should try and make it look like its combat even if it's just show wrestling.

JB: One of the things Larry Malenko told me and I don't mean necessarily Billington or Satoru Sayama is that a lot of wrestlers nowadays look like a trampoline act.

KG: That's it. No where could you ever see a guy crawl up on the turnbuckles. It's just like the Empire State building. Just stand there and waiting for someone to push you off. Where is it ever logical to put a guy on the turnbuckle while you stand on the second rope?

JB: You mean Suplex?

KG: Right. Then there was this other idiot that they made World Champion. This clown who was like a kamikaze.

JB: Harley Race?

KG: Yeah, Harley Race. He'd dive with the head-butt and he looked like a kamikaze coming in. That's the trip of no return that all these guys travel on the yellow brick road. It's not believable. How do you want people to believe this? I've got nothing against these guys but I'm just stating facts. There's hours of wrestling on TV now. That's how they are killing wrestling. The same thing happened to boxing. In the late 50's they had that Gillette show and it was boxing, boxing, boxing. Now it's the same in wrestling. Before, you used to have territories. They had 38 of them in the United States alone. I know. I got kicked out of all of them. But I'm just a hard headed kraut. You tell me no and I'm going to do it anyway. But with nationwide TV, they're going to kill all of it off. And they aren't going to be able to rebuild it. People are going to be sick of it. And these wrestlers. They have no ability anymore. They take these bumps that don't mean nothing. They look like that guy on TV, the Michelin Man. When you act like a clown, you look like a clown. Everyone has paint on their face. I thought it was only for the Mexicans. They were goofy enough. They looked like birds of Paradise and everyone was wearing a mask or some other goofy outfit. So where do you go from here? Where's the wrestling? If you go to the marquee and cut out the word wrestling.

JB: And change it to maybe Acrobatic show?

KG: Yeah, you've got something there. We've got a show here tonight but we don't know what we call it. That would be fine with me.

KG: Wrestling is something that I've done since I was ten years old. For 56 years I've been wrestling and I love it. But I hate what they've done to it. IN Europe they've done the same thing. Wrestling is dead in France.

JB: They kind of did the same thing in West Germany, too, didn't they with Otto Wanz?

KG: Now there's only a couple of towns left. The tournaments used to last two months. Now the longest one is three weeks. Wrestling used to be great in England too. The people there are very sports minded.

JB: Let me throw the next two names at you together because when people in the future will think of Pro Wrestling in the United States in the 1980's, the modern era of television wrestling, the names will be remembered are Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair.

KG: Well, I've never met Flair, but he's strictly a guy who does routines. You know, he's got the blonde hair. He's a copy of Buddy Rogers. He does the same thing over and over again. Hulk Hogan sacrificed a lot because he paid so much to break in. He sold his car and everything and was broke.

JB: You mean when he was training?

KG: Yeah, when he was training here in Tampa.

JB: By Hiro Matsuda?

KG: Yeah. What is he though? He came to me to help him out when I was living in Ohio.

JB: Was Matsuda one of the guys involved in the scandal with Japan Pro Wrestling that he talked about earlier?

KG: No. Matsuda is one of those guys that says, Fuck you, Jack, I'm alright. Everybody for themselves. The Lord for all of us. He tried to go on his own though.

JB: He tried to start his own Promotion?

KG: With those other guys. They tried to make a second promotion but they got pushed out quickly.

JB: You brought up the name Buddy Rogers when you were discussing Ric Flair. What about him?

KG: Before I do, let me finish about Hogan. I met him once and he seemed like a nice guy. I don't know if all his success has changed him. Sometimes that happens, you know.

JB: You mean getting the big ego?

KG: But the guy doesn't know a damn thing. I saw this thing on the Rich and Famous show. What does that have to do with wrestling? He always talks in that He-man voice.

JB: And what about Buddy Rogers?

KG: He was a real sharp guy. He was a good businessman. I think he really taught the older McMahon about the wrestling business.

JB: What about Bruno Sammartino? You mentioned to me before we started something about him coming up to you in Toronto and asking you Why don't you like me?

KG: I said, What are you talking about? I said, That's the first I've ever heard about it. Well, geez, it looked liked the world got lifted off his back. But this guy never had a shoot in his life, I had a few here and in Japan.

JB: When you say you had a few here was it something that all of a sudden turned into that? Was it some guy who wanted to see how tough he was?

KG: Well some guys, you treat them nice and they think. Hey, that kraut can't be too tough. And then they wake up. I tell them, you looked for it yourself. There's a big world of difference. I've had some amateur wrestlers that tried. But I was an amateur before I turned pro. It's like, if you have an Olympic boxer, you don't put him against a professional champion right away. He has to work his way up. It's the same in wrestling. An amateur can't compete with a real pro.

JB: Speaking of amateur wrestlers, Bob Backlund had a big problem in the UWF.

KG: Well, he's nothing. I told them that. It makes me laugh. When I was in Japan once I met old McMahon. He asked if I'd been working out. I said Ah, it keeps away the aches and pains. He says How are your guys doing now? (his trainees). I say, not too bad. He says whenever I have any problems, I send Bobby to take care of them. I smiled at him and said He's an amateur. He didn't understand what I meant. It's like when you got a guy and he's singing, but he's an amateur. Sammy Davis was a pro. He didn't know his elbow from his asshole. He pushed weights a lot early. Then he saw me wrestling when I was 60 and he watched me. That was when Shinma tried to give me the shaft. I did two matches and he (Backlund) couldn't believe it. That's when he quit lifting weights.

JB: Didn't you wrestle against Fujiwara?

KG: I had a bad knee then. So Shinma thinks, he, if he goes out there he'll get shown up. I'll look like a piece of shit. Gotch, the God of wrestling. He tells me he'll bring me back to wrestle from time to time. He even got me a new pair of shoes. What a surprise he got. I wrestled Fujiwara. He was glad because he got to wrestle with the master. Anyway, I did two matches. The other one was with Kido. I didn't wrestle anymore after that.

JB: Next guy, Verne Gagne.

KG: Not a straight guy. He's a conceited son of a bitch. He treated people bad. I remember when guys used to come in, you know, for TV matches. When something didn't click right, boy he used to rough them up. I got in an argument with him once and he said "Watch your step". I said, "You're ruffling the feathers of the wrong guy. It might be very expensive for you. So after that, we didn't get along so good.

JB: What about Danny Hodge?

KG: One hell of a guy. A sweetheart of a guy and a good wrestler. He was a man. Just like Jack Brisco. They were great amateurs but they could have made great pros if they had trained for it.

End Part Two

*IN this third part of the interview Gotch talks about his thoughts on promoters, an incident with Riki Choshu and Lou Thesz.

JB: I want to ask you about Lou Thesz. Before I do, I'd like to quote Thesz from the Wrestling Observer 1989 yearbook I worked with Karl in Detroit. I was supposed to beat him with a Greco-Roman Backdrop, which is a hold you can block. He blocked it and broke five of my ribs. I asked him why he blocked it and he just said, I forgot. That was the end of the relationship. It was uncalled for. If he wasn't going to do the finish, he should have just told me ahead of time. He had a lot of talent, but he didn't know how to make money with his talent.

KG: Huh? That's funny about our relationship being over. I get a Christmas card from him every year.

JB: You know, now that I think about it, I've got a tape of a tag team match with you two as partners in Japan in the mid-70's.

KG: That's right. But let me tell you about Detroit. He says I was trying to hurt him. If I had wanted to really hurt him, he wouldn't have walked out of there. Thesz was a glamour boy. Boy did he hate to look up (do a job). You know, when Lou was on a card, 12 percent of the house was for Lou. He got 8 percent and the NWA got 4 percent. I remember in the early 60's (editor's note, this actually was the late 50's), the California territory was built around Baron Leone. Lou went in there and beat him like he was nothing. The whole territory was killed.

JB: When I get together with fellow wrestling fans at big cards or wherever, one question that always pops up is who was the toughest guy in the history of wrestling? The one guy who's name comes up all the time besides yours is Bert Assariti. Was he a really tough guy?

KG: Oh, he was a tough SOB. He wasn't very tall, but he had a barrel chest and was very solid. He was also very fair with me. I remember we were wrestling a series of matches in England and the promoters wanted to pay him more than me because he was more established at the time. But he said, Hey, the kid is working just as hard as me! He should be paid what I'm getting!. And they did. I respected him for that.

JB: Of all the guys with reputations as Tough Guys, how many were actually tough?

KG: Maybe 99 percent of them weren't really that tough. They began believing their own reps.

JB: Ok, so who were the toughest guys?

KG: Well, Assariti, of course. Bill Miller was tough. So was Billy Robinson. He was his own worst enemy though.

JB: Let me move onto a couple of stories that Larry Malenko touched on in our interview. Tell me about giving Andre the Giant the German suplex.

KG: Oh that. Actually that started from a bet with Billy Robinson in Japan. He bet me I couldn't do it. So I did it five times during one tour of Japan. He asked me how I did it, I told him that I took him up in the German elevator.

JB: What about this incident with you and Riki Choshu?

KG: Well, we were working out. He tried to Bull me. I reversed it and heard his neck crack. Next thing I knew he was running like some character in a cartoon.

JB: What about Tom Billington (Dynamite Kid)?

KG: I remember that he was always a nervous wreck. Steroids ruined him, I guess.

JB: Pat O'Connor?

KG: He was only average as an amateur wrestler. But he was a good performer.

JB: Fritz Von Erich?

KG: Now there's a prime asshole. I mean all around. A 24-karat asshole.

JB: Who was the best promoter you ever worked for?

KG: A lady in England. Her name was Mrs. Rogers.

JB: Mrs. Rogers?

KG: She was very fair with me.

JB: I guess I mean here in the United States.

KG: It's very hard to be a good promoter. The good promoters get killed because the wrestler's take advantage of them. But I suppose Vince McMahon Sr. in the early days. He treated me fairly.

JB: What about Sambo wrestling. Do you like that?

KG: I like that the best of all.

JB: What do you think of US amateur wrestling?

KG: Dan Gable was great. He had tremendous conditioning. The best I've seen today is John Smith who is a flyweight from Oklahoma.

JB: Are you bothered that the name Karl Gotch is considered the God of Pro Wrestling in Japan, yet here in the United States, your name is basically unknown?

KG: No. It really doesn't bother me. The wrestling public in the US has the mentality of a 7 year-old. I don't mean that negatively toward the country. But that's who the US promoters gear their product towards. So it doesn't bother me that I'm not known as long as my trainees remember me.

JB: Speaking of students, are you still in contact with Satoru Sayama?

KG: Oh, yes. He runs a school called Pancracae. That means wrestling, kicking and fists. He teaches all forms of fighting there.

JB: Larry Malenko mentioned a few American performers he enjoys watching like Ricky Steamboat and Ted DiBiase. Are there any you like?

KG: Ricky Steamboat I'm not familiar with. Ted's father and I were very good friends. He was one tough SOB> I remember Ted when he was a kid. I taught both he and his brother John how to bridge. He was a good kid.

JB: That'll just about do it. Thanks a lot!

KG: Thank you."