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  1. I was studying humanities as primary interest so maybe you will avoid the bombardment of anti scientific rhetoric that professors seem to love to revel in.
  2. [3:05:39 AM] John Patrick Smith: As a man who was quite sure of the way I saw the world actually being exposed to this shit nonstop in what is supposed to be a place for intellectual discussion was absolutely unbearable to me and it force me to change.
  3. [3:06:03 AM] John Patrick Smith: I said my god if I am coming off like these people I need to check myself
  4. [3:06:23 AM] John Patrick Smith: And I understand why people in here hated me
  5. [3:06:41 AM] Nick: I hate to break it to you dude but you're still militant, regardless of where you sit on the ideological fence lol
  6. [3:07:40 AM] John Patrick Smith: Not at all. I'm just not relativistic about a lot of things that a lot of people would like me to be relativistic about.
  7. [3:10:16 AM] John Patrick Smith: I believe in objective reality and morality.
  8. [3:10:48 AM] Nick: there's definitely no such thing as objective morality
  9. [3:11:02 AM] John Patrick Smith: There certainly is
  10. [3:11:26 AM] John Patrick Smith: It is immoral to have slaves it is immoral to molestation children.
  11. [3:11:30 AM] John Patrick Smith: Facts
  12. [3:11:35 AM] Nick: not facts
  13. [3:11:38 AM] John Patrick Smith: Cannot be justified
  14. [3:11:39 AM] Nick: just popular opinions
  15. [3:11:49 AM] John Patrick Smith: Make a justification then.
  16. [3:12:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: That doesn't victimize somebody.
  17. [3:12:25 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are saying you can justify slavery and having sex with children.
  18. [3:12:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: You can't.
  19. [3:12:37 AM] Nick: me personally? no
  20. [3:12:48 AM] John Patrick Smith: Nobody can.
  21. [3:12:53 AM] Nick: there are people that do those things that justify it to themselves
  22. [3:13:17 AM] John Patrick Smith: That is subjective
  23. [3:13:24 AM] John Patrick Smith: You see my point
  24. [3:13:31 AM] Nick: that is morality lol
  25. [3:13:47 AM] John Patrick Smith: Is it immoral to keep a slave?
  26. [3:13:50 AM] Nick: morality is different per person and it is based on a wide variety of experiences and exposures
  27. [3:14:06 AM] John Patrick Smith: That is relativistic
  28. [3:14:12 AM] Nick: there's no objectivity to it because people are not objective creatures
  29. [3:14:32 AM] Nick: people don't think with logic in a vacuum and not all of their decisions are informed
  30. [3:14:40 AM] Nick: morality is often made after the fact
  31. [3:14:48 AM] Nick: as a justification for actions that came before it
  32. [3:14:52 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are saying that somebody could make a valid justification for these things. Validity means it can be observed and agreed upon.
  33. [3:15:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: I'm sorry nick just because a pedo justifies it in his own head doesn't make it not immoral
  34. [3:15:55 AM] John Patrick Smith: After what fact?
  35. [3:16:13 AM] John Patrick Smith: We know these actions are objective immoral.
  36. [3:16:14 AM] Nick: "just because a pedo justifies it in his own head doesn't make it not immoral"
  37. to you
  38. [3:16:24 AM] John Patrick Smith: No matter how you justify it
  39. [3:16:26 AM] Nick: morality is a deeply personal set of guidelines and that's it
  40. [3:16:43 AM] Nick: there is no such thing as an objective morality that applies to a large group of people
  41. [3:16:48 AM] Nick: just trends and popular opinions
  42. [3:16:52 AM] John Patrick Smith: So we can't judge anyone's morality?
  43. [3:17:03 AM] John Patrick Smith: This is so silly
  44. [3:17:05 AM] Nick: of course we can, but only against our own and what is that really worth?
  45. [3:17:15 AM] John Patrick Smith: You will love college
  46. [3:17:25 AM] Nick: lol
  47. [3:17:27 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's filled with this nonsense
  48. [3:17:36 AM] Nick: I'm just not deontological dude
  49. [3:17:54 AM] John Patrick Smith: Do you believe that raping children should get you jail time?
  50. [3:18:18 AM] Nick: yeah that's a question of societal laws though, those are designed to be a clear cut consequence
  51. [3:18:30 AM] John Patrick Smith: You won't even observe the immorality of raping children how can you say anything bad about anything or anyone?
  52. [3:18:34 AM] Nick: totally different from morality although obviously morality has a hand in shaping law
  53. [3:18:55 AM] John Patrick Smith: Are you implying that all cultures are equal?
  54. [3:19:05 AM] John Patrick Smith: And that all opinions are valid?
  55. [3:19:21 AM] Nick: what do you mean by all cultures are equal lol
  56. [3:19:52 AM] Nick: if you're trying to imply that some cultures are objectively better than others then you can't really say that lol
  57. [3:20:05 AM] John Patrick Smith: Yes I can.
  58. [3:20:22 AM] John Patrick Smith: America>Syria
  59. [3:20:27 AM] John Patrick Smith: Objective
  60. [3:20:38 AM] John Patrick Smith: Anybody in the world would rather live here
  61. [3:21:01 AM] Nick: not on the basis of morality but for their own safety
  62. [3:21:18 AM] Nick: I think we're getting away from the frame of morality here
  63. [3:21:55 AM] Nick: facts do exist, and they don't exist in a vacuum so certainly opinions and beliefs can be held to some degree of scrutiny in the face of evidence
  64. [3:21:59 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are saying that American culture is not superior to cultures that subjugate and beat women by law marry children cut of their clitoris don't let them drive murder homosexuals and I can't say America is objective better?
  65. [3:23:12 AM] Nick: I'd say one culture is more appealing to your personal sense of morality
  66. [3:23:18 AM] Nick: and it'd make sense considering it's the culture you grew up in
  67. [3:23:53 AM] John Patrick Smith: You know the nazis were just a culture and uhh genocide isn't objectively wrong or immoral...
  68. [3:24:06 AM] John Patrick Smith: Hahaha
  69. [3:24:32 AM] John Patrick Smith: Do you understand how ridiculous your argument is?
  70. [3:25:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: Anything can be justified in this world view.
  71. [3:25:08 AM] Nick: I'm just saying there's no objective morality, no matter how good or just an idea might be it'll never be objective
  72. [3:25:18 AM] Nick: it's all without taking my own personal sense of morality into account
  73. [3:25:42 AM] John Patrick Smith: You have no view of morality.
  74. [3:25:59 AM] John Patrick Smith: Or better yet you have no view that matters.
  75. [3:26:31 AM] Nick: I have a strong sense of morality but I also recognize that it's not something everyone should live by or that I should judge others on without some sense of perspective
  76. [3:26:39 AM] John Patrick Smith: Because you believe it is entirely subjective to individuals and does not represent an objective view.
  77. [3:26:58 AM] Nick: it's not entirely muddled it's just not concrete, it's not a fact
  78. [3:27:08 AM] Nick: again, there are excruciatingly obvious and popular trends
  79. [3:27:09 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's completely muddled
  80. [3:27:14 AM] Nick: like hey lots of people think murder is bad
  81. [3:27:28 AM] John Patrick Smith: You could not make a moral argument at this point in a debate.
  82. [3:27:29 AM] Nick: these aren't dismissed by acknowledging that there are no facts in morality
  83. [3:27:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: Murder is bad
  84. [3:27:58 AM] Nick: you're talking about trying to quantify deep personal beliefs and emotions and apply them on a wide scale to billions of people
  85. [3:28:03 AM] John Patrick Smith: Thee are indeed factually wrong things to do to people.
  86. [3:28:04 AM] Nick: it's just not that simple
  87. [3:28:19 AM] Nick: we've had this argument before about the semantics of the word fact lol
  88. [3:28:40 AM] John Patrick Smith: Yes I don't think you understand facts or truths
  89. [3:29:00 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are denying the fact that it is wrong to rape children.
  90. [3:29:13 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's weird to me
  91. [3:29:48 AM] Nick: well yeah it's not a fact, just a widely held belief that I also think is valid but I would never assume is anything more than an emotional judgment
  92. [3:30:02 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's a fact nick
  93. [3:30:14 AM] John Patrick Smith: Just like killing somebody for their money is factually wrong
  94. [3:30:27 AM] John Patrick Smith: It cannot be justified
  95. [3:30:33 AM] John Patrick Smith: Objectively
  96. [3:30:36 AM] Nick: look at this point we're basically arguing different definitions of the word
  97. [3:30:45 AM] John Patrick Smith: No
  98. [3:30:51 AM] Nick: if we can't even agree on what a fact is, then this is going nowhere
  99. [3:31:09 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are denying the fact that victimizing a child is wrong
  100. [3:31:33 AM] John Patrick Smith: How is it not a fact?
  101. [3:32:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: If someone raped your child are you going to be like well let's hear why he did it.
  102. [3:32:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: Or anybody else's child.
  103. [3:32:25 AM] Nick: it's a fact that victimizing a child does severe and immeasurable psychological damage
  104. [3:32:27 AM] Nick: it ruins lives
  105. [3:32:37 AM] John Patrick Smith: Yes so it is wrong
  106. [3:32:41 AM] John Patrick Smith: Fact
  107. [3:32:55 AM] Nick: no that's the emotional conclusion lol
  108. [3:33:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: Why are you even debating this?
  109. [3:33:07 AM] John Patrick Smith: No it's not emotional
  110. [3:33:08 AM] Nick: you're leaving the realm of objective reality and putting your own feelings and judgment into it
  111. [3:33:22 AM] Nick: it's like the difference between a news report and an editorial
  112. [3:33:46 AM] Nick: both have relevant information but one has a judgment behind it as well
  113. [3:33:48 AM] John Patrick Smith: It serves no purpose other than to gratify the victimizer and it does nothing other than hurting the child.
  114. [3:34:43 AM] John Patrick Smith: No everybody that has an understanding of biology and society and psychology or any sort of moral clarity understands that raping children is factually wrong.
  115. [3:38:04 AM] John Patrick Smith: Like I said, you keep this point of view. It will make the conversations you have about how bad and immoral patriarchy is and how we can't judge people who cut off girls clitori and force marriages with 8 year olds haha
  116. [3:38:22 AM] John Patrick Smith: *very interesting
  117. [3:40:00 AM] Nick: don't get me wrong, I'm a human being too I absolutely judge people
  118. [3:40:28 AM] John Patrick Smith: As you should
  119. [3:40:28 AM] Nick: but to act like any judgment is not only supported by facts, but factual and just in its own right is absurdity
  120. [3:40:54 AM] John Patrick Smith: All propositions are true probably true or false
  121. [3:40:57 AM] Nick: you can make informed decisions, there are a lot of safe bets when judging with the opinions of others in mine
  122. [3:41:58 AM] John Patrick Smith: Is it true probably true or false that the factual negative impact of child rape is indeed affirmation of the fact that it is immoral?
  123. [3:42:26 AM] John Patrick Smith: I'll help you...it's true.
  124. [3:44:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: We an separate this into truth and facts, but a truth must serve a moral purpose. And I fail to see the moral purpose of the "truth" that all morality is subjective.
  125. [3:44:40 AM] Nick: since when does truth have to serve a moral purpose
  126. [3:44:48 AM] Nick: truth and morality are not intertwined
  127. [3:44:59 AM] Nick: one does not exist for the other
  128. [3:45:16 AM] John Patrick Smith: They certainly do.
  129. [3:45:26 AM] John Patrick Smith: What is an opinion?
  130. [3:45:43 AM] John Patrick Smith: An informed judgement.
  131. [3:45:53 AM] John Patrick Smith: What is the purpose of sharing opinions?
  132. [3:45:53 AM] Nick: not necessarily informed
  133. [3:46:28 AM] John Patrick Smith: It will always be informed by the experiences of the individual
  134. [3:46:37 AM] John Patrick Smith: Not necessarily on facts
  135. [3:46:42 AM] Nick: there are many purposes for sharing opinions, many of them far from just and not always in the pursuit of truth
  136. [3:47:02 AM] Nick: [3:46 AM] John Patrick Smith:
  137.  
  138. <<< It will always be informed by the experiences of the individualwhat about opinions that are parroted from other sources?
  139. [3:47:17 AM] Nick: that's not an experience from the individual passing that opinion along
  140. [3:47:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: But why would you share an opinion you didn't find to be true?
  141. [3:48:00 AM] John Patrick Smith: If you parroted it you are informed
  142. [3:48:08 AM] Nick: personal gain, to aide an agenda
  143. [3:48:08 AM] John Patrick Smith: In some manner
  144. [3:48:42 AM] Nick: "why would you share an untrue opinion"
  145. "why would somebody ever lie"
  146. [3:49:00 AM] Nick: that's a silly question
  147. [3:49:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: No.
  148. [3:49:23 AM] John Patrick Smith: I'm saying why would you?
  149. [3:49:35 AM] John Patrick Smith: I'm not asking about other people.
  150. [3:50:12 AM] John Patrick Smith: Is telling an untruth for personal gain moral?
  151. [3:50:36 AM] Nick: from my personal perspective? depends
  152. [3:51:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: Hahaha
  153. [3:51:19 AM] Nick: strictly from my own sense of morality, if that personal gain leads to more community gain then that can be justified
  154. [3:51:53 AM] John Patrick Smith: Hahaha so you can infringe on the rights of the individual for the "greater good of the community"
  155. [3:52:08 AM] Nick: if it's at the detriment of those around you then I wouldn't condone it
  156. [3:52:09 AM] John Patrick Smith: You realize that you just proved my point right?
  157. [3:52:38 AM] John Patrick Smith: If it's serves a greater morality it is ok to lie or take advantage of individuals
  158. [3:52:55 AM] John Patrick Smith: Disgusting
  159. [3:53:09 AM] Nick: I didn't say it served a greater morality
  160. [3:53:38 AM] John Patrick Smith: Yes you did you moralized a bad act by saying it was for the greater good of the community
  161. [3:53:41 AM] Nick: deception can be more useful in a utilitarian sense though, and if someone uses their higher position to enact a greater positive change then it can be justified
  162. [3:53:53 AM] Nick: if you disagree then that's your prerogative
  163. [3:54:30 AM] Nick: even that positive change is subjective though, so there is no illusion of there being an objective morality being serviced
  164. [3:55:02 AM] Nick: but hey if it leads to an empyrical improvement in whatever it is, health, the economy, then that was probably a better decision
  165. [3:55:22 AM] John Patrick Smith: Nick, you're saying the morality of serving the greater good justifies immoral acts.
  166. [3:55:39 AM] Nick: to an extent
  167. [3:55:47 AM] Nick: we're strictly talking about sharing a knowingly wrong opinion
  168. [3:56:00 AM] Nick: I'm not saying the sky is the limit here
  169. [3:56:11 AM] Nick: and again nothing that I'm proposing is anything more than my own judgment
  170. [3:56:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's not based on facts or logical inference?
  171. [3:57:31 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are making the kill 1 to save 1000 argument
  172. [3:57:45 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's fucking foolish
  173. [3:57:59 AM] Nick: it'd be ideally informed from facts and logical inference
  174. [3:58:01 AM] Nick: nobody's perfect
  175. [3:58:38 AM] John Patrick Smith: using this logic I could just as easily justify killing 499 people to save 501
  176. [3:59:00 AM] John Patrick Smith: You know for the greater good.
  177. [3:59:10 AM] Nick: you'd be in a lot greater danger of running afowl of popular opinion there though
  178. [3:59:32 AM] Nick: it's never fool proof, who knows maybe the one person you kill would have been a doctor that saved thousands of lives
  179. [3:59:39 AM] Nick: over time it'd be a net loss and there's no way of knowing
  180. [3:59:48 AM] Nick: that's why hypotheticals like this are silly
  181. [3:59:59 AM] John Patrick Smith: I know, that is why it is objectively wrong to kill an innocent person to save any amount of people.
  182. [4:00:19 AM] John Patrick Smith: God forbid you are the lamb
  183. [4:00:37 AM] John Patrick Smith: I think if you were the one who had been chosen you would agree with me
  184. [4:00:48 AM] John Patrick Smith: But you don't see yourself in that position
  185. [4:00:56 AM] John Patrick Smith: So you don't empathize
  186. [4:00:57 AM] Nick: nah not to sound too edgy but it'd be even easier if it was myself
  187. [4:00:59 AM] Nick: versus someone else
  188. [4:01:09 AM] Nick: if we're talking about actually living through this sort of dilemma
  189. [4:01:35 AM] John Patrick Smith: That's bullshit nick
  190. [4:02:08 AM] Nick: what sounds better to you
  191. [4:02:10 AM] John Patrick Smith: You would not feel morally obligated to take the bullet
  192. [4:02:33 AM] Nick: one quick decision and then ceasing to exist, or putting someone else in that position and living with that survivor's guilt
  193. [4:02:46 AM] Nick: or I should just say what sounds easier
  194. [4:02:57 AM] John Patrick Smith: Dying is better than survivors guilt?
  195. [4:03:00 AM] Nick: cause you won't be feeling anything once you're dead lol
  196. [4:03:21 AM] John Patrick Smith: But who has the right to take innocent life?
  197. [4:03:31 AM] John Patrick Smith: There is a victim here.
  198. [4:03:37 AM] Nick: someone certainly has more of a right to take their own life than someone else's
  199. [4:03:49 AM] John Patrick Smith: Of course
  200. [4:04:20 AM] John Patrick Smith: I don't believe for a second you would sacrifice yourself though.
  201. [4:04:47 AM] Nick: I can't say I'd know unless I was in that situation
  202. [4:05:43 AM] John Patrick Smith: Is it moral to kill a million innocent people to save 10 million?
  203. [4:06:30 AM] Nick: look I don't think you get that I know utilitarianism isn't perfect, I don't think it's a flawless guideline
  204. [4:06:41 AM] Nick: but personally I'm more concerned about what I can do for others than what I can do for myself
  205. [4:06:50 AM] John Patrick Smith: Do you believe it is better to allow ten guilty men to go free than to imprison one innocent man?
  206. [4:07:24 AM] Nick: so in the absence of massively magnified Sophie's choice esque trolley problems, it's not a horrible frame to weigh your decisions around
  207. [4:08:16 AM] Nick: [4:06 AM] John Patrick Smith:
  208.  
  209. <<< Do you believe it is better to allow ten guilty men to go free than to imprison one innocent man?yeah, just think of the damage that could do to faith in the justice system
  210. [4:08:26 AM] Nick: good thing it never happens (^:
  211. [4:08:27 AM] John Patrick Smith: You're practically Stalin
  212. [4:08:41 AM] Nick: prison doesn't do much to reform anyways
  213. [4:08:45 AM] Nick: it's horribly ineffective
  214. [4:09:08 AM] Nick: you could argue that those guilty men would be more likely to become productive members of society outside of incarceration than inside
  215. [4:09:44 AM] John Patrick Smith: How do you reform people who have subjectively justified the morality they made the decision with without observing objective morality?
  216. [4:09:53 AM] John Patrick Smith: Wow
  217. [4:10:08 AM] Nick: obviously people are influenced by the opinions of others
  218. [4:10:10 AM] John Patrick Smith: You could but it would be wrong
  219. [4:10:19 AM] Nick: they don't need an objective morality to weigh their own against
  220. [4:10:37 AM] John Patrick Smith: So you believe you have opinions that represent a greater morality?
  221. [4:10:50 AM] Nick: more that they fall in line with popular opinion
  222. [4:11:14 AM] John Patrick Smith: Oh so the laws should just be governed by popular opinion?
  223. [4:11:24 AM] John Patrick Smith: Seems like a great idea haha
  224. [4:11:45 AM] John Patrick Smith: This is why we live in a democratic republic
  225. [4:11:58 AM] John Patrick Smith: This is why we have judges and parliaments
  226. [4:12:01 AM] Nick: no laws are obviously more rigid than that, like I said they can be informed by morality but they are not moral
  227. [4:12:18 AM] Nick: their whole point is to draw an objective line in the sand so society can function better
  228. [4:12:22 AM] John Patrick Smith: To come to concrete rights and laws that are not governed by current social mores.
  229. [4:12:52 AM] John Patrick Smith: The laws represent the enforcement of the objective moral.
  230. [4:13:13 AM] John Patrick Smith: This is so easy to understand
  231. [4:13:33 AM] Nick: there is no objective moral to enforce dude
  232. [4:13:42 AM] John Patrick Smith: Yes there is
  233. [4:14:17 AM] John Patrick Smith: What if nick was really unpopular and it was a popular idea to lock up nick
  234. [4:14:36 AM] John Patrick Smith: Should we make a law to do this?
  235. [4:14:49 AM] monkey: Yes :D
  236. [4:15:06 AM] John Patrick Smith: Nick seems to
  237. [4:15:24 AM] John Patrick Smith: And hello monk
  238. [4:15:25 AM] Nick: look I'll make another analogy here
  239. [4:15:32 AM] monkey: Hello
  240. [4:15:33 AM] John Patrick Smith: Please do
  241. [4:15:48 AM] John Patrick Smith: How have you been?
  242. [4:15:59 AM] Nick: this mythical objectivity that you're looking for is like some sort of singularity for public opinion
  243. [4:16:05 AM] monkey: That's classified information
  244. [4:16:11 AM] Nick: you can get plenty of things that straddle very close to that line but never touch it
  245. [4:16:44 AM] Nick: even if they never become objective they are still functionally so and can reliably be used for societal purposes
  246. [4:17:09 AM] Nick: that's closer to where you would use informed public opinion to create laws
  247. [4:17:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: No this mythical subjective justification you observe as valid regardless of situation is  something that cannot govern the laws of man.
  248. [4:17:16 AM | Edited 4:17:35 AM] Nick: I'm not saying every opinion should inform laws
  249. [4:18:33 AM] Nick: laws don't even exist primarily to serve a sense of morality as much as they exist to stabilize societal behaviors
  250. [4:18:46 AM] John Patrick Smith: You're saying that if the populace, by popular demand, decides it's in the greater good that it is ok to create a law that victimized innocent individuals.
  251. [4:18:56 AM] John Patrick Smith: They are very much morals
  252. [4:19:26 AM] Nick: it'd be within their own sense of morality, certainly not mine
  253. [4:19:40 AM] Nick: should they do it? hell no
  254. [4:20:08 AM] John Patrick Smith: So we can justify victimizing innocent people by the demands of the mob
  255. [4:20:26 AM] John Patrick Smith: That would be immoral no?
  256. [4:21:01 AM] John Patrick Smith: It is immoral to anybody who respects individuality and human rights.
  257. [4:21:24 AM] John Patrick Smith: If you don't respect those things, you're not a moral person.
  258. [4:21:50 AM] Nick: everyone is a moral person
  259. [4:22:02 AM] John Patrick Smith: That's not true
  260. [4:22:06 AM] Nick: no man truly believes that what he does is not good for something
  261. [4:22:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: You are judged by your actions
  262. [4:22:17 AM] Nick: otherwise it's cognitively dissonant to even do it in the first place
  263. [4:22:45 AM] John Patrick Smith: And what a single man believes does not justify victimizing another.
  264. [4:23:25 AM] John Patrick Smith: You don't even believe in the concept of morality it seems.
  265. [4:23:28 AM] Nick: to himself it might
  266. [4:23:41 AM] Nick: morality is at the whim of whoever is using it
  267. [4:23:45 AM] John Patrick Smith: And if there is an observant?
  268. [4:23:51 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's not.
  269. [4:23:57 AM] Nick: he can cast judgment as he pleases
  270. [4:24:08 AM] Nick: internally
  271. [4:24:49 AM] Nick: look this has been going on for a while, I can only argue semantics so long I need to get some sleep
  272. [4:24:57 AM] John Patrick Smith: So if he decides that the immoral act was immoral and the victim believe is was immoral then how is it justified?
  273. [4:25:04 AM] Nick: I'm glad you've got some money coming in the future I hope it serves you well
  274. [4:25:42 AM] John Patrick Smith: I want you to understand there will never be equality or freedom in a world where you morally justify slavery and child rape
  275. [4:25:55 AM] Nick: I mean
  276. [4:26:06 AM] Nick: there already isn't equality or freedom
  277. [4:26:53 AM] Nick: freedom to what extent? as long as basic consequences exist there are limits to your autonomy
  278. [4:27:05 AM] John Patrick Smith: There is more equality and freedom in some places than others and you can't disagree with that
  279. [4:27:07 AM] Nick: and we have never at any point in human history had true equality
  280. [4:27:14 AM] Nick: yeah for sure
  281. [4:27:41 AM] Nick: equality is all or nothing though
  282. [4:27:52 AM] John Patrick Smith: Ok so we can observe the way these societies works and come to the conclusion that it is better to have these things and moral
  283. [4:27:52 AM] Nick: so it's just as absent in the US as in Syria
  284. [4:27:57 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's not
  285. [4:28:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: That's a stupid thing to say that it's all or nothing
  286. [4:28:44 AM] John Patrick Smith: Black people aren't equal to whites so fuck it let's re enslave them
  287. [4:28:50 AM] John Patrick Smith: Great logic.
  288. [4:28:51 AM] Nick: that's not to say that inbetween is meaningless
  289. [4:28:57 AM] Nick: it's just to say that we don't have equality
  290. [4:29:05 AM] John Patrick Smith: It's implicit in the statement
  291. [4:29:18 AM] John Patrick Smith: All or nothing is black and white
  292. [4:29:26 AM] John Patrick Smith: No gray
  293. [4:29:45 AM] Nick: ok let me clarify then
  294. [4:30:35 AM] Nick: equality either exists or doesn't exist in a society, and from there the implicit inequality can vary wildly in size
  295. [4:30:51 AM] John Patrick Smith: Nick if you read this back you will realize you have contradicted your own thoughts on individuality and basically have credence to the notion that you can be a moral child rapist.
  296. [4:31:21 AM] John Patrick Smith: If there has never and will never be equality then it is relative.
  297. [4:32:07 AM] John Patrick Smith: More equality=objectively moral
  298. [4:32:14 AM] Nick: yeah I'm just being a stickler about word choice at this point, definitely derailing and generally being dumb
  299. [4:32:16 AM] John Patrick Smith: Agree?
  300. [4:32:47 AM] Nick: again you just can't throw in the word objectively there is no singularity for morality
  301. [4:33:07 AM] Nick: what I really wanna do right now dude is go to bed, can we just shelve this discussion for another time
  302. [4:33:21 AM] John Patrick Smith: Of course
  303. [4:33:33 AM] Nick: I'm not trying to prove anything right or wrong just explaining where I'm coming from lol
  304. [4:33:50 AM] Nick: ok cool, I hope you have a good night
  305. [4:34:11 AM] John Patrick Smith: hey man you're free to believe what you want. And goodnight bro
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