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22.07 logs on gender

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  1. -->|    YOU (Multiheaded) have joined #nyanmultithunderdome
  2.         =-=     Topic for #nyanmultithunderdome is “Multiheaded v. nyan sandwich THUNDERDOME”
  3.         =-=     Topic for #nyanmultithunderdome was set by LRS on 21 июля 2014 г. 7:59:25
  4.         Multiheaded     h-h-here I go
  5.         rsaarelm        Great! Only there's been no sign of nyan so far.
  6.         Multiheaded     first of all, some basics on structural anti-trans* violence. chew on that while I'll try to get
  7. sufiiciently fired up for a good rant
  8.         Multiheaded     http://criticalmassprogress.com/2012/11/21/ci-remembering-transgender-victims-of-structural-violence/
  9.        
  10.         ErikMesoy       Hello Multiheaded
  11.         Multiheaded     sup
  12.         ErikMesoy       This basics document seems to be traveling down a familiar path answering those conservatives who
  13. whine about the definition of "violence", wanting to limit it to spilled blood rather than abusive systems.
  14.         |<--    rsaarelm has left irc.darklordpotter.net (Ping timeout)
  15.         ErikMesoy       Do you happen to also have a resource answering those* who say instead: "Yes, but grubbing in the
  16. dirt and dying of pneumonia at age 25 is also an abusive system. Civilization requires some degree of oppression of
  17. deviants, so the options aren't abuse or no abuse, the options are caveman abuse or civilization abuse" ?
  18.         Multiheaded     yeah, and even at that, the blood *is* spilled, of course. trans* suicide attempts rate is like 40%
  19. in america. and what makes it so emotionally charged to me is, in part, how terrified i am looking back at my suicide
  20. attempt.
  21.         ErikMesoy       *other than not being stock conservatives, I have no idea what this group is; I doubt it's even
  22. reactionaries
  23.         Multiheaded     civilization abuse: 1) they can't show a causal connection: even girard's talk about scapegoats
  24. does not designate a specific target group - why not abuse *bad* people? 2) if you look at basically every country in the
  25. world, this is anti-correlated at least
  26.         Multiheaded     3) look at japan: highly advanced, peaceful but fairly repressive on gender and sexuality -> low
  27. birth rate, high depression, high suicide
  28.         ErikMesoy       1) seems to have an intuitive answer: the *bad* people go to jail or execution, scapegoats must be
  29. only somewhat freaky. I like the other two responses better.
  30.         ErikMesoy       Does it help you get fired up for a good rant if I sum up nyan's position as "being trans is
  31. unprofessional"?
  32.         Multiheaded     again, the correlation here is *not* causation I think; there might be some deeper underlying
  33. meta-structure behind liberalism and non-suckyness... except that i agree that liberalism has flaws, too
  34.         Multiheaded     i already identified it as more than that... i need to go read some personal stories and such
  35.         Multiheaded     basically, we needn't lump all non-liberalism together too: in terms of mental health I think
  36. catholic cultures ~ orthodox ones >>> protestantism > modern post-confucianism
  37.  
  38.         Multiheaded     so very briefly my position: cultural conservatism has some good features while today's western
  39. liberalism as it actually exists has many failings, but 1) those don't neccessarily mirror each other, and 2)... well, 2)
  40. is a very interesting idea i've formulated before and will recapture promptly, and 3) tolerance is an unquestionable good
  41. for the imaginable space of cultures, because the demand it satisfies is so dire
  42. [2014-07-21 23:20:53] -->| rsaarelm (rsaarelm@dlp-A6500A1A.kapsi.fi) has joined #nyanmultithunderdome
  43.  
  44. [2014-07-21 23:24:15] <Multiheaded> i messaged ozy on tumblr to come lend me a hand. not sure if zie will come.
  45.  
  46. [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> i haven't even begun to cover the feminist theory angle of this. i'm not sure this is
  47. within my powers, but basically one line of radfem argument could also be that patriarchy is an unfriendly system that
  48. harvests cultural resources from the subordinate classes (from having a housewife institution to justifying rape), exploits
  49. and channels emotional labour (will anybody want me?/men don't...
  50. [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> ...cry, gotta work harder at it!) in addition to the fairly straightforward economic
  51. exploitation, and directs some of the benefits to men, unequally, throws a few scraps to the subordinates who perform their
  52. role best, and most of all perpetuates itself.
  53. [2014-07-21 23:47:45] <Multiheaded> radfems would probably locate 90% of *all* the scapegoating going on within the gender
  54. system, and this is simply because the gender regime shapes our very understanding of dominance and submission, strength
  55. and weakness
  56. [2014-07-21 23:47:53] <Multiheaded> really need to be more precise here
  57. [2014-07-21 23:50:28] <Multiheaded> but yeah, the takeaway in this case is that scapegoating is not in practice a generic
  58. "social technology", it's very often a byproduct of patriarchy used towards *its* ends and not some vague "stability" and
  59. "common good". and the complaint would be that conservatives refuse to study the gender regime, and that normativity and
  60. stability are invoked as semantic stopsigns
  61. [2014-07-21 23:52:03] <Multiheaded> like, the *generic* psychological mechanism of scapegoating is... generic, but in
  62. practice patriarchy is probably going to be involved somehow. one VERY salient example is prison rape and the attitudes
  63. towards it, as well as generally rape being used as a literal expression of dominance and a metonym for it in emotionally
  64. charged conflicts between men.
  65. [2014-07-21 23:54:01] <Multiheaded> the defeated is symbolically emasculated/feminized, and thus his rape becomes an act of
  66. scapegoating that reaffirms the order that has just rewarded the victor. on a very fucked up level, the use of rape *is* a
  67. "social contract"
  68.  
  69. [2014-07-21 23:57:18] <Multiheaded> googling 'patriarchy scapegoating' returns mra whining
  70. [2014-07-21 23:59:51] <Multiheaded> a more particular feminist argument about gendered scapegoating is offered by the many
  71. writings on medieval witch hunts. that's easily googlable.
  72. [2014-07-22 00:00:54] <Multiheaded> oh, and the more general case is apparently in julia serano's *whipping girl*. seems to
  73. be specifically about trans*, too. must read.
  74. [2014-07-22 00:01:57] <Multiheaded> hm, i'm raising the jolly roger to look it up. will quote the relevant bits if i locate
  75. it.
  76. [2014-07-22 00:06:22] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: ok, found an epub of Whipping Girl, will go skim it now
  77. http://en.bookfi.org/book/1411559
  78. [2014-07-22 00:07:28] <Multiheaded> this resource seems to be blocked in some countries (in russia that's the case), use a
  79. proxy if needed
  80. [2014-07-22 00:09:05] <Multiheaded> *grin* oh yeah! seems to be right on the mark! if nothing else, I could just quote it
  81. at nyan in like an angry and vengeful way
  82. [2014-07-22 00:11:55] <Multiheaded> ok, the introduction has the statement of intent, but not the argument against misogyny
  83. and gender hierarchy itself. nevertheless it might be helpful to identify nyan's argument as inseparable from outright and
  84. unequivocal misogyny.
  85.  
  86. [2014-07-22 00:12:06] <Multiheaded> dumping now:
  87. [2014-07-22 00:13:29] <Multiheaded> In a male-centered gender hierarchy, where it is assumed that men are better than women
  88. and that masculinity is superior to femininity, there is no greater perceived threat than the existence of trans women, who
  89. despite being born male and inheriting male privilege “choose” to be female instead. By embracing our own femaleness and
  90. femininity, we, in a sense, cast a shadow of doubt over the...
  91. [2014-07-22 00:13:29] <Multiheaded> ...supposed supremacy of maleness and masculinity. In order to lessen the threat we
  92. pose to the male-centered gender hierarchy, our culture (primarily via the media) uses every tactic in its arsenal of
  93. traditional sexism to dismiss us...
  94. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...Instead of attempting to empower those born female by encouraging them to move
  95. further away from femininity, we should instead learn to empower femininity itself. We must stop dismissing it as
  96. “artificial” or as a “performance,” and instead recognize that certain aspects of femininity (and masculinity as well)
  97. transcend both socialization and biological sex—otherwise there would not be...
  98. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...feminine boy and masculine girl children. We must challenge all who assume that
  99. feminine vulnerability is a sign of weakness. For when we do open ourselves up, whether it be by honestly communicating our
  100. thoughts and feelings or expressing our emotions, it is a daring act, one that takes more courage and inner strength than
  101. the alpha male facade of silence and stoicism. We must challenge...
  102. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...all those who insist that women who act or dress in a feminine manner take on a
  103. submissive or passive posture. For many of us, dressing or acting feminine is something we do for ourselves, not for
  104. others. It is our way of reclaiming our own bodies and fearlessly expressing our own personalities and sexualities. It is
  105. not us who are guilty of trying to reduce our bodies to mere playthings,...
  106. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...but rather those who foolishly assume that our feminine style is a signal that we
  107. sexually subjugate ourselves to men. In a world where masculinity is assumed to represent strength and power, those who are
  108. butch and boyish are able to contemplate their identities within the relative safety of those connotations. In contrast,
  109. those of us who are feminine are forced to define ourselves on...
  110. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...our own terms and develop our own sense of self-worth. It takes guts, determination,
  111. and fearlessness for those of us who are feminine to lift ourselves up out of the inferior meanings that are constantly
  112. being projected onto us. If you require any evidence that femininity can be more fierce and dangerous than masculinity, all
  113. you need to do is ask the average man to hold your handbag or...
  114. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...a bouquet of flowers for a minute, and watch how far away he holds it from his body.
  115. Or tell him that you would like to put your lipstick on him and watch how fast he runs off in the other direction. In a
  116. world where masculinity is respected and femininity is regularly dismissed, it takes an enormous amount of strength and
  117. confidence for any person, whether female- or male-bodied, to...
  118. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...embrace their feminine self. But it is not enough for us to empower femaleness and
  119. femininity. We must also stop pretending that there are essential differences between women and men. This begins with the
  120. acknowledgment that there are exceptions to every gender rule and stereotype, and this simply stated fact disproves all
  121. gender theories that purport that female and male are mutually...
  122. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...exclusive categories. We must move away from pretending that women and men are
  123. “opposite” sexes, because when we buy into that myth it establishes a dangerous precedent. For if men are big, then women
  124. must be small; and if men are strong then women must be weak. And if being butch is to make yourself rock-solid, then being
  125. femme becomes allowing yourself to be malleable; and if being a...
  126. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...man means taking control of your own situation, then being a woman becomes living up
  127. to other people’s expectations. When we buy into the idea that female and male are “opposites,” it becomes impossible for
  128. us to empower women without either ridiculing men or pulling the rug out from under ourselves. It is only when we move away
  129. from the idea that there are “opposite” sexes, and let go of...
  130. [2014-07-22 00:13:31] <Multiheaded> ...the culturally derived values that are assigned to expressions of femininity and
  131. masculinity, that we may finally approach gender equity. By challenging both oppositional and traditional sexism
  132. simultaneously, we can make the world safe for those of us who are queer, those of us who are feminine, and those of us who
  133. are female, thus empowering people of all sexualities and genders.
  134.  
  135.  
  136. [2014-07-22 00:14:16] <ErikMesoy> Gnar. Having trouble opening the epub, and the PDF is temporarily unavailable.
  137. [2014-07-22 00:15:15] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: here's a torrent with .mobi, .txt and .lit
  138. [2014-07-22 00:15:18] <Multiheaded>
  139. http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7650475/Whipping_Girl__A_Transsexual_Woman_on_Sexism_and_the_Scapegoatin
  140. [2014-07-22 00:17:45] <ErikMesoy> ok, reading it now
  141. [2014-07-22 00:22:46] <ErikMesoy> I am objecting pretty much right off the bat when the manifesto proposes to define being
  142. a woman as an act of will, by including anyone who identifies as a woman, regardless of other qualifications, as though sex
  143. were a political movement or the like. (This shortly after complaining about the social constructionists, to boot.)
  144. [2014-07-22 00:22:56] <ErikMesoy> But maybe I shouldn't be reading this to object.
  145. [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> oh, and this reminds me of what i'd bring up in a more personal rant, had i been more
  146. fired up: slowly opening up to my genderqueerness and overcoming the alienation from my girl... "side" (well, not side, i
  147. don't experience my masculinity and my femininity in an oppositional way and this is very important to me and before tumblr
  148. stuff on gq i was painfully confused) - well, by doing the...
  149. [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> ...emotional work of that, i slowly became aware of why i was having so much
  150. difficulty:
  151. [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> BECAUSE MISOGYNY IS FUCKING INTENSE AND BRUTAL AND TERRIFYING. there is this enormous,
  152. many-faceted hatred in the world for all that is woman, all that is feminine, and that's inevitable, because femininity is
  153. not just associated but directly *identified* with the *meaning* of victimhood and scapegoating. "woman" *means* "the
  154. object of contempt and control and an overseer's paranoia"
  155. [2014-07-22 00:25:06] <Multiheaded> ok, pretty fired up now
  156.  
  157. [2014-07-22 00:27:25] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: "by including anyone who identifies as a woman" cis-by-default strikes
  158. again, "identifying with a woman" is anything but a superficial act, a person who would merely speak the words for non-
  159. gendered personal reasons would flinch from accepting new structures of self-image and relation within oneself
  160. [2014-07-22 00:28:28] <Multiheaded> tl;dr - "you weren't there, man" *thousand yard stare*
  161. [2014-07-22 00:29:32] <ErikMesoy> Multiheaded: cis-by-default is a neat example of the other reaction I feel, when now
  162. trying to read this charitably, of nodding my head and going "yes, so?" as I consider that the author seems to want me to
  163. get upset and offended by some phenomenon, and it's not happening.
  164.  
  165. [2014-07-22 00:33:03] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: so as an experiment you could try examining the reaction of other trans
  166. women, and see if there's unusually high support for the thesis and its emotional thurst, with less amounts of the usual
  167. "black conservative"/"i don't need feminism"/"as an X, no X is oppressed"
  168. [2014-07-22 00:33:12] <Multiheaded> i predict that there would be
  169. [2014-07-22 00:33:44] <Multiheaded> this said, *of course* i personally am much less oppressed than non-genderqueer trans
  170. women
  171. [2014-07-22 00:34:41] <Multiheaded> but i can relate completely to their key points about this experience of sheer fucking
  172. terror
  173. [2014-07-22 00:57:57] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: so after some huffing and puffing i discovered that a few of my intuitions
  174. are already covered in whipping girl, here's a link:    
  175. http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7650475/Whipping_Girl__A_Transsexual_Woman_on_Sexism_and_the_Scapegoatin
  176.  
  177. [2014-07-22 00:57:57] <Multiheaded> how systemic misogyny and cissexism and our notions of
  178. power/weakness/dominance/inferiority intersect. you aren't going to like the constructivism, but the fact that only gender
  179. constructivists ever seem to make all those points about systemic misogyny is kind of an argument in their favour
  180.  
  181. [2014-07-22 00:59:43] <ErikMesoy> nydwracu: can second it as a fascinating read, but it does have some very deep
  182. assumptions I disagree with, such as taking the notion of "gender" seriously
  183. [2014-07-22 00:59:52] * nydwracu puts on his eye patch
  184. [2014-07-22 01:00:04] <Multiheaded> to be perfectly frank, i don't support extreme gender constructivism as well. but when
  185. radfems try extreme essentialist, the result is just silly woo. and I'm more constructivist than the default position for
  186. western society today, although the default is politically incorrect to say out loud
  187. [2014-07-22 01:00:07] <ErikMesoy> Pieces of eight, bugger the made
  188. [2014-07-22 01:00:08] <ErikMesoy> *mate
  189. [2014-07-22 01:00:24] <nydwracu> i have got to install an adblocker, popups have autoplaying sound now
  190. [2014-07-22 01:00:28] <nydwracu> this particular one went
  191. [2014-07-22 01:00:31] <nydwracu> "are you a boy or a girl?"
  192. [2014-07-22 01:00:34] <nydwracu> #synchronicity
  193. [2014-07-22 01:00:55] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: did it have "yes" and "no" buttons?
  194. [2014-07-22 01:01:17] * ErikMesoy gazes upon his stopwatch, counts the seconds it takes for Multi to say something about
  195. how the piratical use of "bugger" is an example of this subject
  196. [2014-07-22 01:02:14] <nydwracu> la déconstruction has not gone far enough that mmorpgs would advertise themselves that way
  197. [2014-07-22 01:02:17] <nydwracu> yet
  198. [2014-07-22 01:02:47] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: that's because it's a tiny and well-known one. the more interesting hints
  199. imo are in our discourse about emotions, specifically all the shit that evolved to conceal that emotional work is literally
  200. work, as in productive labour
  201.  
  202. [2014-07-22 01:02:53] <nydwracu> man, that reminds me
  203. [2014-07-22 01:04:28] <nydwracu> i used to say, in the course of arguing that sexual orientation is only considered to be a
  204. universal and innate thing because of the political dynamics around it, that there's no intrinsic reason why it should be
  205. more central to one's identity than one's taste in pizza
  206. [2014-07-22 01:05:08] <nydwracu> but i realized a few hours ago that it is *less* central to my identity than my taste in
  207. pizza
  208. [2014-07-22 01:05:31] * ErikMesoy upvotes
  209. [2014-07-22 01:06:18] <ErikMesoy> Damn identity politics?
  210. [2014-07-22 01:06:36] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: seems to be a very obvious "The Man made me an X" dynamic here, although of
  211. course there's the opposite coping strategy too, and it varies greatly by individual
  212. [2014-07-22 01:07:53] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: I like to complain about identity politics myself, but there's an unthinking
  213. paleo-leftist circlejerk about it. I've always said that there needs to be a careful integration of the various '68 issues
  214. into a reconstructed communism
  215. [2014-07-22 01:08:05] <nydwracu> maybe that could be an example of crystallizing the wrong concept?
  216. [2014-07-22 01:08:29] <nydwracu> unless it was a conscious strategy to attack prohibitions on behavior by reframing
  217. behaviors as identities
  218. [2014-07-22 01:09:05] <nydwracu> which '68 issues?
  219. [2014-07-22 01:09:46] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: of course, in the absense of a certain discipline, the intellectual movement
  220. is along the line of least resistance, and any defenses against outright falsehood don't cover it, since technically
  221. identity politics is not *false*, it just is not the one true correct line of attack and progress that I'm convinced we
  222. need to identify
  223.  
  224. [2014-07-22 01:09:57] <Multiheaded> we need some kind of *precision*
  225. [2014-07-22 01:10:38] <nydwracu> the empirical claims it makes [relies on?] can be false
  226. [2014-07-22 01:10:48] <nydwracu> and the thedes it forms can be strengthened or weakened by those empirical claims
  227. [2014-07-22 01:11:12] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: for instance, that discipline and precision are problematic - all that
  228. deleuzian shit. again, technically not *wrong*, we just can't integrate it right and still have a functioning alternative
  229. to everything
  230. [2014-07-22 01:11:40] <nydwracu> i can't follow that but i have been awake for about 24 hours so i would not be able to
  231. [2014-07-22 01:11:47] <ErikMesoy> it sounds like the die techie scum problem?
  232. [2014-07-22 01:11:53] <Multiheaded> can't immediately come up with a good example about emotion/sexism ATM, in the
  233. meanwhile read this
  234. [2014-07-22 01:11:53] <Multiheaded> http://www.justlabour.yorku.ca/volume2/pdfs/soares.pdf
  235. [2014-07-22 01:12:07] <ErikMesoy> we want the tech but not the techies, and we're not competent to replace the techies
  236. [2014-07-22 01:12:51] <ErikMesoy> (paraphrasing others, not my own opinion)
  237. [2014-07-22 01:13:59] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: not directly, but that is also a symptom of following the line of least
  238. resistance in part. and in part it's frustration and insecurity. and in part it is probably correct. although history tells
  239. us that Not All Tech Scum. in the end the tech controversy is almost entirely about economics, and we've been in full panic
  240. mode with bouts of apathetic despair about economics for the...
  241. [2014-07-22 01:13:59] <Multiheaded> ...last 25 years
  242. [2014-07-22 01:14:25] <Multiheaded> ErikMesoy: "competent *enough*" is deeply relative
  243. [2014-07-22 01:14:49] <nydwracu> well, the thing i do not understand is
  244. [2014-07-22 01:14:51] <Multiheaded> and after all it's also a matter of power and security. the US didn't fear von braun
  245. [2014-07-22 01:15:09] <nydwracu> or rather, i do understand it but it seems like an inconsistency if you take the stuff
  246. seriously
  247. [2014-07-22 01:15:18] <nydwracu> why isn't anyone going after the colleges
  248. [2014-07-22 01:15:27] <nydwracu> like, seriously going after them, "here's why college is terrible and here's why you
  249. shouldn't go"
  250. [2014-07-22 01:16:11] <nydwracu> not "oh well gee i guess it's sort of a shame that college is so expensive now let me tell
  251. you why a $200k english degree is important and good"
  252. [2014-07-22 01:19:11] <nydwracu> attacking academia runs counter to the new left strategy of organizing academics,
  253. students, and lumpens [against most of the proles but fuck them they can get replaced]
  254.  
  255. [2014-07-22 01:19:22] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: seen my SSC comments on nash equilibria? in this case, education appears to
  256. have been the area of broad post-68 concessions to the New-Left-cum-progressivism, and i'm not just talking about the
  257. production of dogma, but about the ideology of "class mobility". maybe that the lower classes are encouraged to attend a
  258. cathedral-approved institutions is like... i don't know, forgot the...
  259. [2014-07-22 01:19:22] <Multiheaded> ...metaphor, but this appears to be basically a sign of "Society Is OK for the
  260. Individual"
  261. [2014-07-22 01:20:03] <Multiheaded> college props up the compromise/consensus post-68 conceptions of both Society and the
  262. Individual
  263. [2014-07-22 01:22:21] <nydwracu> There is a policy that’s better from a neutral/technocratic view and actually more
  264. leftist, but it requires going on the offensive against some key implicit concessions that the Right has won in an earlier
  265. conflict
  266. [2014-07-22 01:22:26] <nydwracu> And the Right need not be so malicious that they’d sabotage a win-win proposal for
  267. ideology’s sake, just instumentally rational enough to demand something big in return, both for its own sake and to
  268. disincentivize further power grabs. This also happens symmetrically.
  269. [2014-07-22 01:22:52] <nydwracu> well yes but if you are old left enough to think that there are certain concessions that
  270. can be provided
  271. [2014-07-22 01:23:16] <nydwracu> of course the problem there is, which right are you providing the concessions to
  272. [2014-07-22 01:23:16] <Multiheaded> nydwracu: again, if it was merely about the direct reproduction of dogma, leftists
  273. would bash tech in favour of liberal arts, and in small degrees this happens, and to a larger degree the cathedral simply
  274. doesn't have the power to, but fundamentally i do stand by my guess that higher-education-in-general for the masses is just
  275. seen as a key symbolic point of stability for the system
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