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4CC Pre-Spring 2016Rules discussion IRC log

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  1. **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 19 16:00:02 2016
  2.  
  3. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 * Now talking on #4chancup
  4. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 * Topic for #4chancup is: New to IRC? Read: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=DfaEwRCx | Stream: http://www.hitbox.tv/the4chancup | Wiki: http://implyingrigged.info | Minor server glitch - whole lotta registered nicks goneski | Last time: /fit/ won thec up
  5. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 * Topic for #4chancup set by f4r (Mon Mar 14 10:53:16 2016)
  6. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 * anon_855 (Mibbit@AD3C0A8F.A5AE2A8A.23BF3206.IP) has joined
  7. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:07 * DrBorisG sets mode +m on #4chancup
  8. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:11 <MerkaST> Hi where are the rules :DDD
  9. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:12 * #4chancup :You need voice (+v) (#4chancup)
  10. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:29 * Heavenly_Pond (Mibbit@656DB078.C41394B1.59A04F42.IP) has joined
  11. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:37 * Superzak is now known as FREE_4CC
  12. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:41 * Feedback is now known as benis
  13. 2016 Mär 19 16:00:53 * DrBorisG sets mode +N on #4chancup
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  30. 2016 Mär 19 16:04:48 * FREE_4CC (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has left
  31. 2016 Mär 19 16:04:53 <@Lear>   Try posting it here so people can see it.
  32. 2016 Mär 19 16:05:06 * JUSTICE4KOALA (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
  33. 2016 Mär 19 16:05:28 <@Lear>   Boris just post it.
  34. 2016 Mär 19 16:05:39 * JUSTICE4KOALA (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has left
  35. 2016 Mär 19 16:05:53 <@Lear>   http://pastebin.com/eNKDbEPC
  36. 2016 Mär 19 16:05:56 <@Lear>   Here we go.
  37. 2016 Mär 19 16:07:05 * benislan (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
  38. 2016 Mär 19 16:08:02 <@Lear>   Gib specifics basically.
  39. 2016 Mär 19 16:08:58 * FREE_KOALA (Mibbit@5A527773.36087307.4E050B54.IP) has joined
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  41. 2016 Mär 19 16:09:51 <@Lear>   Boris I think you shoould let the floodgates out on the IRC, I think people are capable of discussing things and here is a better place then the stream chat.
  42. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:08 <~DrBorisG>   ok
  43. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:14 * DrBorisG sets mode -m on #4chancup
  44. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:16 <[d]r[d]troit>    HI MOM
  45. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:17 <CollieBro>    /p/ TEAM IN SPRING WHEN
  46. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:20 <Hessen>  The new BSG stats ill change nothing. I tested that when the question about changes came up before winter. Actual changes were more around 88/93/99
  47. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:29 <benislan>    please unlock nicks too DrBorisG
  48. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:31 <Cyclohexane> HI STREAM
  49. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:32 <iMaasie> that went just fine the very first second
  50. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:33 <Two_Scoops>  oh god here we go
  51. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:34 <Feedback>    Hello world!
  52. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:35 * DrBorisG sets mode -N on #4chancup
  53. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:36 <benislan>    HI DAD
  54. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:38 <@Lear>   Now don't you guys be stupid about this.
  55. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:41 <Lazyturd>    ELLO
  56. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:42 * benislan is now known as Superzak
  57. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:43 <Megabeastage>    this will go well
  58. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:44 <Soryuu>  *proves Lear wrong*
  59. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:45 <Heavenly_Pond>   Hi mom
  60. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:47 <Chance>  im gay
  61. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:47 <[d]r[d]troit>    Where do you think you are, Lear
  62. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:48 <Lazyturd>    HELLO STREAM
  63. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:55 <BGP> wts stout shako for 2 refined
  64. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:57 <~DrBorisG>   note this is for rules discussion only right now
  65. 2016 Mär 19 16:10:59 <iMaasie> [rampant shitposting in the distance]
  66. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:01 <buttbot> REAL_4CCSPAN: Second Suggestion: Make Medal defenders a more valid choice. Boris expressed how its a dangerous idea to change stats by position.
  67. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:04 <SoCom>   !roll 1d100 check my benis
  68. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:05 <buttbot>  SoCom rolls 33
  69. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:05 <buttbot> Check 'em
  70. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:07 <CollieBro>   Honestly I'd rather go back to pes15, but I understand if this idea is shot down quick
  71. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:09 <%GB> remove managers
  72. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:10 <Heavenly_Pond>   ay
  73. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:16 <SoCom>   ay
  74. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:20 * DrBorisG sets mode +m on #4chancup
  75. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:20 * DrBorisG sets mode +N on #4chancup
  76. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:37 <@Lear>   Well that went as well as expected.
  77. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:44 * DrBorisG gives voice to spreach Rigtor Megabeastage
  78. 2016 Mär 19 16:11:51 * DrBorisG gives voice to Lazyturd
  79. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:14 <+spreach>    ok so what i told Boris was lets have regular/bronze/silver/gold players like before
  80. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:19 * bittenfeld (fritz@58BD7B71.C27C27ED.66EF15E.IP) has joined
  81. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:35 <+Rigtor> yeah buffing players by position instead of global stats would lead to a new height abuse
  82. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:42 <+Megabeastage>   yep
  83. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:49 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, i can see that happening
  84. 2016 Mär 19 16:12:50 <+Megabeastage>   Buff players by stat I believe
  85. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:05 <+Megabeastage>   an example could be +5 in defensive stats to all players
  86. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:12 <+Lazyturd>   But would buffing global stats actually do anything?
  87. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:23 <+Megabeastage>   It would reduce spaghetti at least
  88. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:24 <+Rigtor> I've tested buffing certain individual stats
  89. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:28 <+Rigtor> It makes a difference
  90. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:33 * DrBorisG gives voice to [d]r[d]troit
  91. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:36 <+Rigtor> but I'm not sure of the exact level you'd have to change to make it completely effective
  92. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:50 <+Rigtor> because I had small, noticeable changes, but it didn't like, fix the game really
  93. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <@Lear>   http://pastebin.com/LBi6DcDz
  94. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Actual idea: How about instead of only an A position, allow that or the option of two B positions?
  95. 2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <@Lear>    relevant pastebin.
  96. 2016 Mär 19 16:14:41 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Could open it up for more flexibility for tactics?
  97. 2016 Mär 19 16:14:43 <@Lear>   How would you see that being used Dtroit?
  98. 2016 Mär 19 16:14:43 <+Rigtor> I've always found the idea of B positions interesting, but the question is what effect does it have on time
  99. 2016 Mär 19 16:14:53 <+Rigtor> How much autistic live managing would be used with extra positions?
  100. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:02 <+Lazyturd>   What would that actually do though?
  101. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:02 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Well, like
  102. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:06 <+Rigtor> That's my only concern with B position
  103. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:12 <+Lazyturd>   Like that would increse micro-managing
  104. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>   You could give a CMF B in CMF and a Wingmid
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  106. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>   and be able to play them in both positions without a big drop in stats
  107. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:36 * DrBorisG gives voice to Chance
  108. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:43 <~DrBorisG>   cjamce says he's tested some A/B stuff
  109. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:44 <~DrBorisG>   go ahead
  110. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:51 <+[d]r[d]troit>   and I think that it wouldn't be a big time waster since it would be a lot of just positional stuff
  111. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:57 <+Chance> Right, first off.
  112. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:58 * BASED_GOD (Mibbit@A23C01F2.1C1D21D9.B2F2AA8C.IP) has joined
  113. 2016 Mär 19 16:15:59 <+Rigtor> for example if I I was allowing B positions, I would make it a rule that you can't change players positions by live managing, only change presets to one with the players already in a different position to stop autistic live managing.
  114. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:01 * Mantis (Mibbit@3AB89BE6.EE38DD9E.B5501CEB.IP) has joined
  115. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:05 <+Chance> Under AI, B skill players are /balls/
  116. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:15 <+Chance> Like, I honestly can't tell them from C players
  117. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:23 <+Chance> they're embarassing
  118. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:41 <+Rigtor> playing PES in a non 4cc way, i've figured kinda the same
  119. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:42 <+Megabeastage>   Well that removes that idea then
  120. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:49 <+Chance> playing wingbacks that could also do midfield
  121. 2016 Mär 19 16:16:53 <+Rigtor> not indistinguishable from C, but not good. It's like bieng out of position really.
  122. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:03 <+Chance> the minute they moved into midfield, it was like they'd dropped two medals
  123. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:30 <+Rigtor> Well B players aren't actually supposed to be naturals, they're supposed to be able to play there uncomfortably in an emergency
  124. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:32 <+Chance> If you want to run multiple positions, it would have to be A positions
  125. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:39 <+Rigtor> the entire role exists to compensate for fatigue and injury in online PES in desperations
  126. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:41 <+Chance> which is a interesting option
  127. 2016 Mär 19 16:17:56 <+Chance> it would make fluid formations more interesting, because as of now
  128. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:00 <@Lear>   So what cases would additional A ranks be usable do you guys think?
  129. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:02 <+Chance> being out of position is asking to die
  130. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:08 <+Lazyturd>   I dont really know
  131. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Multiple As could be a bit OP
  132. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:19 <+Lazyturd>   Would we give manlets more As?
  133. 2016 Mär 19 16:18:25 <+Chance> an out of position player is fucked, and it makes fluid form much less useful
  134. 2016 Mär 19 16:19:05 <+Rigtor> I'm not even sure that having manlets who can change positions is a particularly useful buff. People will still just play 3 179 players who are no different from a non height abuse 180 who usually plays
  135. 2016 Mär 19 16:19:12 <+Rigtor> it might get turbo 165's to play
  136. 2016 Mär 19 16:19:18 * OMP (OMP@278CC1E4.5E1BA38B.5FE16377.IP) has joined
  137. 2016 Mär 19 16:19:20 <+Rigtor> but they'd probably just be backups to the 179s if they're blue or purple
  138. 2016 Mär 19 16:20:04 * Tenko-G (chatzilla@22B56F67.5504AAF9.B9CB084C.IP) has joined
  139. 2016 Mär 19 16:20:53 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, multiple A positions would make fluid more "useable", i dont know if that would be a good thing or not
  140. 2016 Mär 19 16:20:58 <@Lear>   So much about PES has to be done by feel.
  141. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+Chance> doesn't happen, boris
  142. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Maybe allow multiple As, but you're then locked into always using fluid?
  143. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+Rigtor> As much as people shit on keeperbabbies, they're entertaining. That's why I think that something like, for example
  144. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:17 <+Chance> There is no magic bullet
  145. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:20 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Seems a bit too much to check, but a thought
  146. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:26 <+Chance> certain tactics are good against others
  147. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:29 <+Rigtor> i'd consider 10(7) 3-2 4(3) more entertaining than 10(7) 5-3 4(3)
  148. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:35 <+Rigtor> which is what you get a lot on 16
  149. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:36 <+Chance> but you can only stack the odds so high
  150. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:39 <+Lazyturd>   I think keepers should get a minor buff
  151. 2016 Mär 19 16:21:54 * DrBorisG gives voice to Hessen
  152. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:05 <+Chance> I know Rigtor did keeper stat buffing tests
  153. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:10 * Gerb (Mibbit@6ECC43B2.F1FC5936.D3B2CA9E.IP) has joined
  154. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:15 <+Chance> but that honestly seems viable atm
  155. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:19 <+Megabeastage>   It did alright somewhat
  156. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:28 <+[d]r[d]troit>   GKing seems less like the problem than the poor general defending
  157. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:31 <+Rigtor> all 88 keepers made a difference. They saved the 'easy' shots ways more
  158. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:34 * Stefan_Burnett (Hiryuu@70F2C2F0.B6E66996.43F9F159.IP) has joined
  159. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:40 <+Rigtor> but there was still so many unstoppable perfect shots out of even a gold keepers hands
  160. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:46 <+Chance> almost all the the top teams in Winter had very high defensive focus
  161. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:47 <+Rigtor> that the goals per game hardly went down
  162. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:52 <+Lazyturd>   Rigtor, any percentage numbers compared to cup rules?
  163. 2016 Mär 19 16:22:58 <+Chance> almost all have losts of backs, and ÈnayÈ defensive numberd
  164. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:03 <+Chance> "many
  165. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:08 * MxlPlx has quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds)
  166. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:09 <+Megabeastage>   could perhaps nerf the finishing of the golds then
  167. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:12 <+Rigtor> I don't know the percentages from winter so I can't compare.
  168. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:16 <+Chance> this is b/c of the weird shot/goal ratio right now
  169. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:21 <+Lazyturd>   Ah alright.
  170. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:23 <+Rigtor> I know that there was things like an average of saves per game of just over 2 in my cup
  171. 2016 Mär 19 16:23:42 <+Rigtor> and there was only 2 teams out of 42 played total that scored (every) shot on target
  172. 2016 Mär 19 16:24:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>   There was an idea I read a bit ago about lowering the shooting stats of gold strikers, this worth considering?
  173. 2016 Mär 19 16:24:19 <+Lazyturd>   But the core problem is that (in my opinon), is that goals happen way too easily.
  174. 2016 Mär 19 16:24:54 <+Rigtor> you could cap finishing at 88 for everyone
  175. 2016 Mär 19 16:25:14 <+Rigtor> i don't know how the effects of every other stat being 99 contributes to finishing
  176. 2016 Mär 19 16:25:23 <+Rigtor> i'd have to test it
  177. 2016 Mär 19 16:25:29 * bent (messi@1E2F358.7BBFD912.B241E85F.IP) has joined
  178. 2016 Mär 19 16:25:43 <+Chance> I haven't tested defenive upgrades per say, but I've run a lot of medal defenders b/c memes.
  179. 2016 Mär 19 16:25:59 <@Lear>   People do need to recognize the balance between managers and the games being fun to watch from someone not involved.
  180. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:05 * Q (Mibbit@9B5A770B.29D3F4A7.C05836FF.IP) has joined
  181. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:11 <+Rigtor> Yeah. That's what i've been focusing on
  182. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:20 <+Rigtor> you could easily make PES16 consistent
  183. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:22 <+spreach>    can't we give people a total amount of stats and let people distribute it however they want
  184. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:23 <+Rigtor> but it'd be like 1.12
  185. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:25 <+Rigtor> with keepers saving nohing
  186. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:26 <+Chance> one effect they do have is they lessen the current need managers feel to have like 3 dmfs and 3 cmfs with "many" defenders on
  187. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:29 <+Hessen> PES seems pretty balanced around even stat lines. I got the most reasonable scorelines with all 99s. The changes in the paste barely change anything. I got very good results starting with something around 88/94/99. There are still a fair amount of shots with those. I tested with a large amount of tactics too.
  188. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:31 <+spreach>    is that what boris is talking about
  189. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:42 * let_fang_manage_every_team (Mibbit@5A527773.36087307.4E050B54.IP) has joined
  190. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:46 <+Chance> because that's no longer as essential a part of the meta
  191. 2016 Mär 19 16:26:47 <+Lazyturd>   spreach, i really dont like that
  192. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:04 <+Rigtor> yeah spreach that's an awful idea
  193. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:04 * DrBorisG gives voice to bittenfeld
  194. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:08 <+Megabeastage>   nah, there's gonna be a staring 11 of 99
  195. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:10 <+Rigtor> you'll get height abuse episode 2
  196. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:17 * let_fang_manage_every_team has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  197. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:22 * Legendairyman (Mibbit@F3EC23C1.67FF62BB.823CF4.IP) has joined
  198. 2016 Mär 19 16:27:29 <+spreach>    yeah you guys are right
  199. 2016 Mär 19 16:28:10 <+Hessen> I got a fair amount of test results from before winter ill try to find them
  200. 2016 Mär 19 16:28:49 <+Lazyturd>   But honestly, i really think buffing keepers would be a step in the right direction.
  201. 2016 Mär 19 16:28:50 * JohnnyBravo (JB@13BC78A0.AD7409F3.A55B51F3.IP) has joined
  202. 2016 Mär 19 16:28:52 <+Lazyturd>   Not by much
  203. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:07 <+bittenfeld> Buffing stats makes more sense.
  204. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:15 <+Lazyturd>   Or that as well,
  205. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:40 * Superzak (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has left
  206. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:43 * Lear gives voice to JohnnyBravo
  207. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:55 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, thats a better idea, buffing specific players wouldnt be good in a long run
  208. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:58 <~DrBorisG>   http://pastebin.com/NMBJwkW9
  209. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:58 <+Rigtor> can you post DB's pastebin in here
  210. 2016 Mär 19 16:29:59 * Superzak (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
  211. 2016 Mär 19 16:30:02 <+Rigtor> solid
  212. 2016 Mär 19 16:30:05 <+Lazyturd>   thanks.
  213. 2016 Mär 19 16:30:14 * anon_143 (Mibbit@585B3F7F.E38062A8.207EDD52.IP) has joined
  214. 2016 Mär 19 16:32:01 <+Rigtor> yeah positional boosts bug me because out of position players aren't as bad as they were long ago tbh
  215. 2016 Mär 19 16:32:06 * DrBorisG gives voice to BGP
  216. 2016 Mär 19 16:32:57 <@Lear>   There will always be formations that are better.
  217. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:02 <+Rigtor> When I tested, for every individual stat i boosted offensively, i boosted one defensively
  218. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:12 <@Lear>   Perfect balance is impossible as a goal.
  219. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:13 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Isn't this already a thing, though?
  220. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:17 <+Rigtor> like, i increased acceleration, but then also increased ball winning to offset it
  221. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:24 <+JohnnyBravo>    I dislike any change that would effectively limit tactical options
  222. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:26 <+Lazyturd>   But is perfect balance something we're after?
  223. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:30 * Marqod (MarqoD@2C8A1261.9FF71667.E8549C34.IP) has joined
  224. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:31 <+Rigtor> so players were still shut down, but occasionally there were great last man tackles, and there were great sprints to score a goal
  225. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:36 <+Rigtor> so it was kinda balanced that way
  226. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:36 <+bittenfeld> I agree with JB
  227. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:43 <+Megabeastage>   yeah
  228. 2016 Mär 19 16:33:46 <+Lazyturd>   I mean better and worse formations should always exist.
  229. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:01 <+[d]r[d]troit>   You really can't succeed to a huge degree with aingle-striker formations as-is , as an axample
  230. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:07 <+[d]r[d]troit>   *a single
  231. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:19 <+Rigtor> You can't? News to me.
  232. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:21 <+BGP>    Position rating for players is based on specific stats. If you buff defensive stats, for instance, you will increase the rating for positions like CBs and DMFs, and the effectiveness of players in those position. Then you end up with teams playing something like four CBs, 4 DMFs and 2 strikers (exaggerated).
  233. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:23 <+bittenfeld> It should be Rock-Paper-Scissors ideally. Some formations work better aganst another, some works worse.
  234. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:33 <+JohnnyBravo>    say if you nerf stats on strikers only for instance, people will play more AMFs and that just leads to a centralized meta where everyone does the same thing
  235. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:44 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Look at the ones in winter, they really didn't do very well
  236. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:48 * PWJP (PWJP@1D0BD3D2.1EC6156E.91A37520.IP) has joined
  237. 2016 Mär 19 16:34:56 <+BGP>    that's why buffs need to be across the board. If you buff non-medals, you need to buff them in all positions. Not just defensive ones.
  238. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:01 * DrBorisG gives voice to DescendingBear
  239. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:17 * DrBorisG gives voice to CollieBro BASED_GOD
  240. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:26 <+Lazyturd>   But imo that wouldnt change much
  241. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:35 <+Lazyturd>   Would only lessen spagooter
  242. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:42 <+JohnnyBravo>    dtroit I only recall one 1-striker team in winter
  243. 2016 Mär 19 16:35:52 <+BGP>    Isnt that the point, Lazyturd?
  244. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:00 <+[d]r[d]troit>   and /a/ barely avoided wooden spoon
  245. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:16 <+Chance> The rock-paper-scissors system Bitten is describing actually works right now
  246. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:24 <+Lazyturd>   I get that.
  247. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:28 <+JohnnyBravo>    I'm just saying, and /w/ won an invite on 4-4-1-1
  248. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:35 <+Rigtor> yeah there was only like, one lone striker in winter
  249. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:42 <+Chance> In PES 16, having more CBs than than opponent has forwards is a good idea
  250. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:47 <+Hessen> http://pastebin.com/c8gZ1jb8 found my test results. These have been a a month or two ago so I dont remember the exact tactics, lots of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 but some other stuff too
  251. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:51 <+Chance> an because almost everyone runs lb-cb-cb-rb
  252. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:53 <+Rigtor> and also i believe several teams like /f/ and /n/ changed presets and ran lone striker with players out of position and won games
  253. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:56 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I wouldn't count Invitationals if only because people don't put their best foot foward with them
  254. 2016 Mär 19 16:36:57 <+Chance> the lone striker gets fucked
  255. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:06 * Lear gives voice to Tenko-G
  256. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:07 * Flow (Mibbit@823266CB.C5CAD66.5B4E04B9.IP) has joined
  257. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:09 <+Lazyturd>   But my main problem with PES16 is that goals happen too easily, and general stat buffs wouldnt do anything about it (need data on this)
  258. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:12 <+Chance> but lone strikers actually do well vs. three man defenses
  259. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:22 <+Rigtor> but then hardly anyone runs 3 man defences
  260. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:29 <+Rigtor> 4-4-2 is just too good right now tbh
  261. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:35 <+CollieBro>  ck did sort of well with 3 man defence
  262. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:40 <+Chance> or if they're supported by heavy midfield attack, wide or narrow
  263. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:42 <+Rigtor> there's minimal reason not to use 4-4-2 unless you play 4-3-3 for goals
  264. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:44 <+Rigtor> it's a bit annoying
  265. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:52 <+Rigtor> that's my one big concern with 16
  266. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:52 * Flow has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  267. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:56 <+Chance> That's just it, Rigtor
  268. 2016 Mär 19 16:37:58 * Flowonthego (Mibbit@823266CB.C5CAD66.5B4E04B9.IP) has joined
  269. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:03 <+Chance> the 4-4-2 is the meta, because it's the meta
  270. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:06 <+Chance> if that makes sense
  271. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:06 <+CollieBro>  I would support changes that made strange formations more viable desu
  272. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:12 <+Lazyturd>   Good point rigtor
  273. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:19 <+JohnnyBravo>    defensive boosts might help that, since you would be able to get away with fewer defenders
  274. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:22 <+Chance> 2 gold strikers are ideal against the 4 man bacjline almost everyone runs
  275. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:26 <+CollieBro>  I don't particularly like 4-4-2 but it was the only thing that really made sense in this game
  276. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:30 <+Lazyturd>   But how would we help "formation diversity"?
  277. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:34 <+Chance> but it;s not broken, it can be countered with 3 CBs
  278. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:46 <+bittenfeld> What is the limits on how complex the auto-atf check with regards to stat parameters?
  279. 2016 Mär 19 16:38:48 <+Chance> it's just that no one is doing that
  280. 2016 Mär 19 16:39:02 <+Chance> everyone is pidgeonholing themselves into a tactical corner
  281. 2016 Mär 19 16:39:06 <+JohnnyBravo>    bittenfeld from what I'm told there are none
  282. 2016 Mär 19 16:39:08 <+Chance> with the 4-4-2
  283. 2016 Mär 19 16:39:11 <+Tenko-G>    Well since pretty much PES14 GKs only worth is that they have a hitbox that strikers can put their shots into. In PES16 strikers just learned that you score more by shooting past them. This is why we have more shot conversion.
  284. 2016 Mär 19 16:39:47 <+DescendingBear> if all players should receive the buff to defensive stats, instead of just LB, RB and CB ones, I think that it would be better to raise: Ball Control, Def Prowess, Jump, Clearing, Reflexes. As buffed Ball Winning and Speed for midfielders and strikers would only help them to overcome defense in long run
  285. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:01 <+Tenko-G>    GKs are probably in 16 than 15 even.
  286. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:06 <+Tenko-G>    *better
  287. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:15 * Hiryuu (Hiryuu@ECB89F5C.B6E66996.43F9F159.IP) has joined
  288. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:15 <+Rigtor> clearing and reflexes are keeper stats though?
  289. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:19 <+JohnnyBravo>    definitely gotta do it across the board like DB said
  290. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:24 <+Rigtor> and jump doesn't need a boost
  291. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:28 <+Rigtor> crosses are far from broken
  292. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:30 <+Rigtor> and longball is shit
  293. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:33 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I think many agree that the problem isn't GKing but defending
  294. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:38 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, DB, that is a good point
  295. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:38 <+Chance> crosses are good this year, yeah
  296. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:39 <+JohnnyBravo>    buff CB/LB/RB only -> people play 4 or 5 of those always -> less diversity
  297. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:42 <+Rigtor> it's mostly def prowess and ball winning that need a boost more than anything
  298. 2016 Mär 19 16:40:59 <+BGP>    crosses are pretty much non-existent in PES16, unless you run longball (which isn't very viable).
  299. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:11 * Stefan_Burnett has quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  300. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:28 <+Rigtor> yeah
  301. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:31 <+bittenfeld> You have to look at it systemtically. If too much goals is the problem you have to ask where it's coming from? Is it because the GK is letting too many long shots in? Is it because the defense is letting too many throughballs? etc.
  302. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:33 <+Rigtor> players don't really cross unless you play C/L/W
  303. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:35 <+Rigtor> and it's annoying
  304. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:46 <+Chance> it is
  305. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:48 <+JohnnyBravo>    We scored a good percentage of our goals off crosses
  306. 2016 Mär 19 16:41:55 <+JohnnyBravo>    but you need specific cards to force them
  307. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:00 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, crosses are lethal
  308. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:00 <+Tenko-G>    Well number of shots is lower than in 15.
  309. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:01 <+Rigtor> and attacking FBs
  310. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:02 <+CollieBro>  right now there's pretty much only two ways a goal chance is made: throughballs or general defensive spaghetti
  311. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:03 <+Chance> Yeah, I noticed that with /fit/
  312. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:11 <+Rigtor> >dat pinging of chance
  313. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:24 <+Chance> The Heading Card is genuinely good, if you can get crossing to happen
  314. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:29 <+Chance> as we saw with zyzz
  315. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>   It really is
  316. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:31 <+Rigtor> heading is a fantastic card
  317. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:40 <+Megabeastage>   heading is amazing
  318. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:43 <+CollieBro>  yeah I guess that's right
  319. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:45 <+[d]r[d]troit>   which makes it a shame corners tend to be taken short for some reason
  320. 2016 Mär 19 16:42:47 <+BASED_GOD>  Buffing certain stats could be more OP than buffing certain positions. I'm not that familiar with PES, but if it is the same as most sports game, then you can make only one or a couple players more OP than even the 'so called' best players on the pitch.
  321. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:05 <+Rigtor> personally, I hate that skillcards 1 through 6 are almost useless because dribbling is a shit. I want to see players pull out those sick goals you saw from Bert back in the day
  322. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:09 <+JohnnyBravo>    short corners are more dangerous tbh
  323. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:14 <+Rigtor> but (not as common as in PES14 because they're cheesy)
  324. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:15 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, i really enjoy that heading is back
  325. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:23 <+CollieBro>  the sombrero card was great in 15
  326. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:34 <+Chance> Hell Trick is good
  327. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:34 <+CollieBro>  but yeah in 16 they're hot garbage
  328. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:36 <+Chance> *heel
  329. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:37 <+BGP>    dribbling got destroyed in PES15/16, because it was the only way to win a 1on1 in PES14 and people hated it.
  330. 2016 Mär 19 16:43:59 <+BASED_GOD>  Heading makes corners more lethal
  331. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:04 <+DescendingBear> isn't Jump the stat that gets tested against Heading when defender and striker clash for high ball? I thought that it could help defenders a little bit more
  332. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:12 <+JohnnyBravo>    it's not that dribbling cards don't work, it's that they never even trigger
  333. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:14 * Mantis has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  334. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:16 <+Rigtor> I tested increased dribbling on non medals and silvers and there was a noticeable difference to the way teams played, but yeah, there was no good runs
  335. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:18 <+Rigtor> ;_;7
  336. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:36 <+Chance> I should go check /out.
  337. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:42 <+Chance> */out/ again
  338. 2016 Mär 19 16:44:51 <+Chance> because their wingers were actually adept dribblers
  339. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:01 <+Megabeastage>   doesn't mazing run force a dribbling run?
  340. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:02 <+Chance> I think Mazing Run is an important tool again
  341. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:04 <+bittenfeld> You can force runs with fluid.
  342. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:08 <+Chance> ^
  343. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:09 <+Chance> Aslo this
  344. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:19 <+Lazyturd>   Do they?
  345. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:25 <+Lazyturd>   I havent dabbled much with >fluid
  346. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:26 <+Tenko-G>    Anyone tested lower AI settings? I remember they affected teams in coach mode different than CPU teams in 13 or 14.
  347. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:32 <@Lear>   Does anyone have a link to it?
  348. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:34 <+Megabeastage>   ye, look at /out/'s wingers
  349. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:39 <+Rigtor> I tested lower AI settings before
  350. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:42 <+Rigtor> it was, uh
  351. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:43 <+JohnnyBravo>    I recall /asp/'s mazing run being a nuicance in tests
  352. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:49 <+Lazyturd>   I think lowering ai settings is a no-go zone
  353. 2016 Mär 19 16:45:51 <+Rigtor> the shots and stats were exactly the same
  354. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:00 <+Hessen> lower AI doesnt do much besides lower quality of play from my experience
  355. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:00 <+Rigtor> but everyone was worse
  356. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:07 <+Rigtor> shots came from non medals being ass
  357. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:09 <+Hessen> just makes it more boring
  358. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:16 <+Rigtor> it was just like the game before but with spaghetti
  359. 2016 Mär 19 16:46:17 <+bittenfeld> dribbling is tied to card settings a 99 player with the wrong cards would just run into a defender.
  360. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:02 <+JohnnyBravo>    the other thing is with 4 cards investing in dribbling is sub-optimal
  361. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:08 <+Tenko-G>    Sounds great, who doesn't like spaghetti.
  362. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:08 <+JohnnyBravo>    when you could be getting heading, long range drive, etc
  363. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:19 <+BGP>    the problem with mazing run/trickster/incisive run is that people value other skills higher (like long range drive, first time shot, one touch pass, etc), so even if you give people more cards to play with, you'll just see more one touch pass, etc.
  364. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:29 <+BASED_GOD>  Jumping being tested against heading would make sense between defenders and attackers
  365. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:35 <+Rigtor> the problem is there's only a select amount of skillcards that are good per position
  366. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:36 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, dribbling isnt a good option is 16 imo
  367. 2016 Mär 19 16:47:50 <+Lazyturd>   Like some people can make it worth, but as a general tactic it isnt working
  368. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:02 <+Rigtor> like
  369. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:07 <+Rigtor> on /u/ they had low lofted/weighted on everyone
  370. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:14 <+Rigtor> and it worked because they're the most broken cards for midfielders
  371. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:24 <+Rigtor> and if you upped cards, they'd just add one touch pass to everyone
  372. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:28 <+Rigtor> and it would be even more broken
  373. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:31 <+Rigtor> and nothing would change
  374. 2016 Mär 19 16:48:32 <+Hessen> same thing happened with throughballs from 13 to 14 with ketchup bug
  375. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:06 <+bittenfeld> I actually liked the global cap for cards before as opposed to the positional cap for cards. The only thing I would've changed is that you can put as many cards as you want on a player of your choice as long as you don't go over the global limit.
  376. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:07 * Edgar (Edgar_Bobi@179CB85C.AA766DFB.591024FE.IP) has joined
  377. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:25 <+Chance> Keeper buff.
  378. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:26 <+Lazyturd>   Increase general defending stats across for everyone.
  379. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:27 <+bittenfeld> medal cap for cards i meant.
  380. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:29 <+Rigtor> best 3 suggestions: nerfed finishing, boosted keepers, i don't have a 3rd
  381. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:30 <+Lazyturd>   And keeper buff.
  382. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:30 <+Tenko-G>    Fast low crosses have always been brokenly good in PES. So much that if you could prevent them from high crossing it would be a benefit.
  383. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:32 <+Chance> It's the only change I would make atm
  384. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:48 <+Megabeastage>   I feel like a compression of stats centred around the silver players would be helpful
  385. 2016 Mär 19 16:49:57 <+BGP>    PMB ran a stream before winter where he played games with several different setup
  386. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:01 <+Megabeastage>   like a +4 for non medals and a -4 for medals
  387. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:13 <+BASED_GOD>  boost keepers
  388. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:16 <+Hessen> lowering gap between medals.
  389. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:17 <+JohnnyBravo>    bitten while that seems nice, remember the reason we went with the current system is so that teams could use their whole roster and not just hte players with cards
  390. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:24 <+Rigtor> i wish we should make wingers that aren't hole players who are basically wide AMFs more viable somehow tbh
  391. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:28 <+Chance> Oh.
  392. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:31 <+Rigtor> all you can do is hope it works on fluid
  393. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:34 <+Lazyturd>   I really dont know about lowering medal stat gaps
  394. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:35 <+DescendingBear> with global card cap, everyone would rather use those on striker guys than defenders and make difference of strength even more visible
  395. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:36 <+JohnnyBravo>    gold wingers ;)
  396. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:43 <+Chance> They're also implementing more A-rank positions for players
  397. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:44 <+Rigtor> tfw no gold wingers
  398. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:48 <+Chance> but that's mostly just me
  399. 2016 Mär 19 16:50:53 <+Chance> and my boner for fluid formation
  400. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:10 <+Rigtor> a #hotopinion is that there should never be a global limit on *anything* that you can distribute at your own discretion
  401. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:14 <+Rigtor> it just asks to be abused
  402. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:25 <+CollieBro>  I wouldn't mind an extra A-rank as long as it isn't overdone
  403. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:28 <+bittenfeld> But that's up to the person. You'll have to weigh in what's important. Also with random conditions then you have to think of card distributions more.
  404. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:30 <+BASED_GOD>  i would not recommend boosting certain stats, it could make the difference between medals and non-medals more extravagant
  405. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:51 <+Lazyturd>   But that would be done with the gap lowering as well
  406. 2016 Mär 19 16:51:53 <+CollieBro>  Like, don't give every player an extra A-rank because mid-match tactical autism will reach a new high
  407. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:05 <+Rigtor> bitten while you would want to set things up like that
  408. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:09 <+Hessen> compressing stats upwards is good i think. also 77/82/88 is less fun to watch compared to 88/94/99. Similar to lowering Ai setting
  409. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:17 <+JohnnyBravo>    an extra A-rank would be so nice, but it's more a pipe dream than anything
  410. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:23 <+Rigtor> you'll get the cheeki cunts who'll play like
  411. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:38 <+Rigtor> all their cards on their CMFs with best height and play /u/tier using the same setup on everyone
  412. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:43 <+Rigtor> and you'd just get hardcore /u/ clones everywhere
  413. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:54 <+Rigtor> you'd open the floor for more tactical diversity
  414. 2016 Mär 19 16:52:58 <+Rigtor> but then
  415. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:02 <+BGP>    Compressing downward just leads to worse play. People enjoy seeing players be good, not seeing them fuck up. Nerfing stats down is a bad idea.
  416. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:08 <+Rigtor> everyone would use the same shit anyway
  417. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:08 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah
  418. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:15 <+CollieBro>  Agreed
  419. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:25 <+bittenfeld> But what cards you give the midfielders you take away cards from your forwards.
  420. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:27 <+Rigtor> since 2012 i've been parroting a theory about singularity in PES the longer we go on in cups, and this would just make it even more hardcore.
  421. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:46 <+Lazyturd>   If we are to give As, they should be given to manlets
  422. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:48 <+CollieBro>  What, everybody using the same thing?
  423. 2016 Mär 19 16:53:56 <+DescendingBear> with low stat differences between three player ranks, or with four ranks in total, those strength gaps can completely blur after applying nerf for lanklets
  424. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:08 <+JohnnyBravo>    speaking of manlets, 4/4 seems to make players worse, not better for some reason
  425. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:26 <+Rigtor> in the past, come autumn everyone used the same shit. In Autumn 14 in was 4-2-2-2, in autumn 12 it was 4-3-3 etc etc
  426. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:27 <+CollieBro>  One thing that extra As would help with is preventing a team from getting shafted by the random conditioning
  427. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:34 <+Rigtor> but now, it's getting to the point where everyone uses the same shit eeven earlier
  428. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:35 <+Megabeastage>   It does make them try shit they usually wouldn't with 4/4
  429. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:35 <+Rigtor> like, by spring
  430. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:47 <+BGP>    Extra A positions for manlets I like, because it allows teams to be more fluid tactically.
  431. 2016 Mär 19 16:54:55 <+Rigtor> which is becoming an issue because people start to realise that some things are just too good and there's not enough diversity in PES
  432. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:03 <+JohnnyBravo>    can we allow people to do 2/2 on manlets by choice tbh
  433. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:27 <+bittenfeld> Gold manlet will be viable now. (and OP)
  434. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:29 <+BASED_GOD>  Yeah that's fine
  435. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:40 <+Rigtor> Yeah that's actually a problem. A 179cm gold with two A positions is OP
  436. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:46 <+Megabeastage>   where would you draw the line on that though?
  437. 2016 Mär 19 16:55:49 <+Rigtor> it should be limited to extra A positions on non medals
  438. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:03 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, that makes sense
  439. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:08 <+Megabeastage>   like 175+ players are actually pretty OP if you play them well enough
  440. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:12 <+Lazyturd>   But would we give them to silver as well?
  441. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:12 <+BGP>    Also, everyone's going to gravitate towards the same formation by autumn because that's just what happens. It doesn't even have to be the best formation, but teams saw it work in winter/spring/summer, and so they use that, because they want to win.
  442. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:28 <+Rigtor> Your medal being a manlet is perfectly viable. 5cm between 179 and 184cm doesn't make a difference
  443. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:28 <+Lazyturd>   Like we should limit the A ranks from gold players
  444. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:37 <+CollieBro>  Right
  445. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:46 <+CollieBro>  Don't give medals another a position, please
  446. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:49 <~DrBorisG>   what about silvers for example
  447. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:55 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Shortstacks has done well for us, if we were allowed an extra A on her, we could easily medal it and probably wreck shit
  448. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:59 <+bittenfeld> Also extra A position should be limited to the position next to the registered one or opposite wing. So we won't have CB/CF A ranks.
  449. 2016 Mär 19 16:56:59 <+CollieBro>  eh, not convinced
  450. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:00 <+Lazyturd>   That i was saying bors
  451. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:04 <+Rigtor> My issue with it is that, for example
  452. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:08 <+Megabeastage>   Silvers seem to be a slightly better 77 in 16
  453. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:09 <+Rigtor> Everyone runs 2 gold CF's at this point
  454. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:13 <+JohnnyBravo>    that seems arbitrary bitten
  455. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:14 <+Megabeastage>   Golds are a massive jump
  456. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:30 <+Rigtor> being able to move your silvers around effectively completely changes the game imo
  457. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:33 <+Rigtor> idk if that's a good or bad thing
  458. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:54 <+Rigtor> because your silvers are what win the game
  459. 2016 Mär 19 16:57:58 <+BGP>    I don't really see why not. If people are worried about 179cm gold medal players with two A positions, make it only 174cm players and below who get two A positions. The 179cm players would still have good weak foot stats.
  460. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:05 <+Lazyturd>   I think giving silver manlets the extra A rank would be worth a shot
  461. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:06 * Lear gives voice to Marqod
  462. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:08 <+Rigtor> when everyone has two gold CF's, the silvers are what matters most.
  463. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:14 <+Marqod> Not gonna weigh in too much on tactics since I'm not really too well-versed in PES16, but we don't want to make things too complex mechanically either. That would be confusing for both newcomers and viewers alike.
  464. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:17 <+DescendingBear> I really like that JB's idea about extra A for manlets, I can give it some tests on my machine through the next week
  465. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:28 <+CollieBro>  well, silvers have been pretty good at turning average teams into great teams
  466. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:30 <+Megabeastage>   Effective use of silvers are what wins the game
  467. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:40 <+Megabeastage>   it's why /fit/ and /out/ were so powerful
  468. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:43 <+CollieBro>  So sure, 2 A rank silvers may not be a terrible idea
  469. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:54 * Nomo (Denko@5EE456A6.E4AE5A01.508D5228.IP) has joined
  470. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:55 <+JohnnyBravo>    the best argument for an extra A rank is that you're not locked into one formation
  471. 2016 Mär 19 16:58:58 <+Rigtor> on golds, people are only really going to swap between like, CF, SS or AM which i guess is kinda useful, but with silvers, they'll go just about everywhere except fullbacks. Again, not sure if that's a good or bad thing
  472. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:09 <+Rigtor> I still think that for the sake of not taking forever live managing, you can only swap A positions by swapping presets
  473. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:17 <+Rigtor> because it encourages preset changes to different tactics
  474. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:18 <+Lazyturd>   And it would make >fluid a bit better
  475. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:19 <+Rigtor> and not autistic live managing
  476. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:26 <+Rigtor> and it lets you use fluid beter
  477. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:32 <+[d]r[d]troit>   yeah, extra A's would make fluid a LOT more viable
  478. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:46 <+JohnnyBravo>    yeah dtroit, in default PES fluid switches formations all the time
  479. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:51 <+JohnnyBravo>    like LMF to LWF on the attack
  480. 2016 Mär 19 16:59:55 <+bittenfeld> Also you're focusing more on the offensive aspect of extra A/B ranks. I find that these extra ranks help more defensively at least with fluid.
  481. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:04 <+Hessen> Emotions do next to nothing
  482. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:15 <+Hessen> Theyre balanced around long cups and not exhibition matches
  483. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:15 <+CollieBro>  I don't think we're considering B ranks still, are we?
  484. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:19 <+Lazyturd>   Havent tried em.
  485. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:21 <~DrBorisG>   not really
  486. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:24 <+CollieBro>  I thought it was settled they're not good
  487. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:25 <+Lazyturd>   B ranks are shite
  488. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:26 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I dont think so, CollieBro
  489. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:28 <+Rigtor> bitten, here'st the thing
  490. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:28 <~DrBorisG>   rigtor and chance said they were ass
  491. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:32 <+JohnnyBravo>    I never thought emotions actually did anything either
  492. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:35 * Stefan_Burnett (Hiryuu@ABACA0F.B6E66996.43F9F159.IP) has joined
  493. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:38 <+Rigtor> like, 3 managers use defensive tactics
  494. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:40 <+JohnnyBravo>    it's just the condition boost if you score
  495. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:44 <+bittenfeld> B rannks may be shit offensivley but not defensively.
  496. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:46 <+Rigtor> you have to talk about the offensive aspect because that's what 90% of managers will do
  497. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:47 <+BGP>    I tested emotions off/on in PES16. The only difference I noticed was that player condition no longer increased with emotions on when a player performed very well.
  498. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:56 <+DescendingBear> anyone would like to test that global buff to ball control, def prowess, clearing and reflexes?
  499. 2016 Mär 19 17:00:57 <+BGP>    with emotions OFF that is
  500. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:03 <+bittenfeld> Bring back bus parking.
  501. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:14 <+Lazyturd>   said no one ever
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  503. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:18 <+BGP>    in PES15 conditions still increased whether emotions were on or off, which leads me think it was just bugged
  504. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:19 <+bittenfeld> As a viable option.
  505. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:22 <+CollieBro>  I would really like to see changes that make a slow, frustrating the opposition playstyle be more viable
  506. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:33 <+bittenfeld> ^
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  508. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:43 <+Rigtor> DB, clearing and reflexes are goalkeeper stats. A global boost does nothing
  509. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:45 <+Rigtor> unless you want to boost keepers
  510. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:51 <+Rigtor> in which case i've already tested those 4 stats being globally boosted
  511. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:55 <+Rigtor> and posted the pastebin earlier
  512. 2016 Mär 19 17:01:57 <+Rigtor> in 4ccg
  513. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:02 * Nomo (Denko@5EE456A6.E4AE5A01.508D5228.IP) has left
  514. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:07 <+JohnnyBravo>    I do think PES is just built to favor offense
  515. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:13 * RigtorMoreLikeNigtor (Denko@5EE456A6.E4AE5A01.508D5228.IP) has joined
  516. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:21 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, a global stat buff across all stats does next to nothing.
  517. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+DescendingBear> got it, thanks Rigtor
  518. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+CollieBro>  yeah because murricans like more goals
  519. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+Rigtor> yeah. real life competitive PES games always end 4-3 in barca vs bayern episode 300
  520. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:24 <+[d]r[d]troit>   the Defensive AI in and of itself seems to be ill-suit for our purpose at best
  521. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:33 <+bittenfeld> Just my wisfhul thinking anyway. I think enginewise Pes is geared to goals.
  522. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:37 <%GB> Give the people goals! [/rabble]
  523. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:38 <+Lazyturd>   If we are to do a global sta buff, it needs to be on specific stats.
  524. 2016 Mär 19 17:02:48 <+[d]r[d]troit>   there's weird things liek the defenders just randomly splitting at the middle even playing compactly
  525. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:08 <+JohnnyBravo>    yeah low compactness is unviable
  526. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:12 <+Rigtor> #bringbackpes13
  527. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:19 <+Lazyturd>    ^
  528. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:23 <+Megabeastage>   nu
  529. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:26 <+Hessen> #bringbackthroghballabuse
  530. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:27 <+Rigtor> low how?
  531. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:30 <+BGP>    Possession is not particularly viable because there are not that many shots in PES16, and with possession play there are even fewer. Also 77s suck at passing, so you just lose the ball on your half of the field more often. I imagine it's a good style to play when you're ahead and just want to shut out the game, though.
  532. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:31 <+Rigtor> like, 2 or 3 is kinda shit
  533. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:33 <+Rigtor> but 4 or 5 is fine
  534. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:35 <+CollieBro>  #bringbackpes15
  535. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:36 <+JohnnyBravo>    doesn't help that fucking everyone plays through the middle though
  536. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:37 <%GB> #removemanagers
  537. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:42 <+CollieBro>  I still think with a couple changes pes15 could be made fresh again
  538. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:50 <+Rigtor> tbh PES13 wasn't even throughball abuse. That was the PESJP patch
  539. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:55 <+Megabeastage>   Actually BGP, I've been able to run a 4-3-3 possession that works quite well
  540. 2016 Mär 19 17:03:59 <+JohnnyBravo>    ehhh bgp we won a pair of knockout games on poss, it's not dead, you just have to find spaces for it
  541. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:03 * spreach_ (spreach@575E8AD4.BF63E245.77BA9BEF.IP) has joined
  542. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:06 <+bittenfeld> I disagree with possession being unviable. It only is because of the goal to save ratio.
  543. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:07 <+CollieBro>  ^^
  544. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:08 <+Rigtor> possession is my waifu
  545. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:15 * User (User@FAE06F77.AE10949.4729E39F.IP) has joined
  546. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:17 <+[d]r[d]troit>   posession isn't bad at all
  547. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:17 <+Megabeastage>   it works but only in less ways than counter
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  549. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:23 <+Rigtor> ^
  550. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:31 <+Lazyturd>   Keeper buffs, Manlets extra A:s to silver and below, and global defensive stat buffs.
  551. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:34 <+Rigtor> 4-4-2 possession attacking FBs (mm)
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  553. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:38 <+Marqod> I'd really like to see what would happen if player stats are closer together, if GKs are buffed and if manlets are buffed.
  554. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:46 <+[d]r[d]troit>   it's bad against specific team setups like /u/ where they rule the midfield, but it's not unusable
  555. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:51 <+Hessen> Shortening skill gaps upwards, extra A for manlets and keeper only buffs are the most popular i think
  556. 2016 Mär 19 17:04:56 <+Rigtor> here's a really #hotopinion nobody has suggested
  557. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:06 <@Lear>   I agree with Marqod those are the three I'd like to see more of.
  558. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:09 <+Rigtor> people say golds are too good
  559. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:13 <+BGP>    Compress stats upwards, extra A positions for manlets.
  560. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:21 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Agreed with Marqod/Hessen
  561. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:23 <+Rigtor> so why not run GGGG with all 80 non medals and all 90 golds
  562. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:25 <+Rigtor> or at least test it
  563. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:30 <+Rigtor> then everyone is better but golds are less broken
  564. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:34 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, Marqod as a great point.
  565. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:35 <+Rigtor> h o t o p i n i o n s
  566. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:41 <+CollieBro>  that's actually not a terrible idea
  567. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:41 <+BASED_GOD>  Individual stat buff v Overall Position buffs
  568. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:44 <+Lazyturd>   has*
  569. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:52 <+Lazyturd>   Fuck my typoing
  570. 2016 Mär 19 17:05:52 <+BASED_GOD>  and Goal Keeper Stat buffs
  571. 2016 Mär 19 17:06:14 <+DescendingBear> Rigtor, could you list stats that would benfit defending? ball control, def prowess, ball winning, speed, body balance? something else?
  572. 2016 Mär 19 17:06:28 <+Rigtor> I'd have to talk to tenk, vaughan and HT about it but the wrassling cup is next week and maybe that could be used to test a different medal structure
  573. 2016 Mär 19 17:06:52 <+Megabeastage>   jump is the defending stat against heading I think
  574. 2016 Mär 19 17:06:58 <+Rigtor> DB if you look in the editor, every stat is ordered by what they're used for
  575. 2016 Mär 19 17:06:58 <+bittenfeld> I'd go with the top 3
  576. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:00 <+bittenfeld> I'd go with the top 2
  577. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:02 <+bittenfeld> I meant
  578. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:15 <+BGP>    PMB tested some games with 80/90/99 on his channel before winter. You have to watch out with buffing non-golds too much, or the game turns into box to box pinball.
  579. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:18 <+Rigtor> in order of attack, passing, defensive, physical, keeper
  580. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:25 <+Marqod> Tbh, putting stats closer together will automatically also make defenders closer to golds in skill, essentially buffing them.
  581. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:29 <+Rigtor> i can't list them all off the top of my hea
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  583. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:35 <+Rigtor> i believe it's heading, defensive prowess and ball winning
  584. 2016 Mär 19 17:07:59 <+Hessen> 80/90/99 is barely a change
  585. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:01 <+BGP>    Marqod, that's why I prefer putting stats closer together. It buffs defense without trying to turn keepers into superman or whatever
  586. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:02 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Can I ask why there's no consideration for a stat shift fownwards, like 77/84/90 o some such?
  587. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:10 <+Lazyturd>   Nope
  588. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:10 <+[d]r[d]troit>   just out of curiosity
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  591. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:17 <+CollieBro>  we want to see players play well
  592. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:19 <+Lazyturd>   That wouldnt make sense imo
  593. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:22 <+Rigtor> silver keepers aren't supermen. I've tested it
  594. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:22 <+JohnnyBravo>    we touched on it, players just play worse
  595. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:25 <+CollieBro>  not more spaghetti
  596. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:30 <+Lazyturd>   And seeing not shite players is what people want
  597. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:33 <+Megabeastage>   would want better play, than more spaghetti
  598. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:37 <+Rigtor> In 21 games, so 42 keeper performances
  599. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:43 <+Rigtor> the most any keeper got was 7 saves
  600. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:44 <+bittenfeld> Just tests with buffing GK stats
  601. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:45 <+Rigtor> and that happened once
  602. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:46 <+[d]r[d]troit>   alright, just checkin'
  603. 2016 Mär 19 17:08:55 <+CollieBro>  no problem
  604. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:00 <+Rigtor> the next highest was a single 6 that happened in the same game
  605. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:02 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah its ok
  606. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:08 <+Hessen> dtroit, stat shift downward is like stat shift upward but more boring to watch
  607. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:09 <+Lazyturd>   This is a open forum at the moment.
  608. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:14 <+DescendingBear> maybe because 90 "gold" player that is over 200cm tall would get nerfed to 85, making him effectively silver and ruining height aboos strategies
  609. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:14 <+Rigtor> so there was only one game it went over 5 saves for silver keepers
  610. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:28 <+Rigtor> well DB nobody is making height abuse OP right now
  611. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:41 <+Rigtor> like, /u/ used it for keepers only really
  612. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:46 <+Rigtor> and /asp/ wasn't that great with it
  613. 2016 Mär 19 17:09:47 <+BGP>    I'm not saying 80/90/99 is the answer, I just said someone tested it. You have to look at how the game plays. You need to buff with baby steps, otherwise you swing the balance too far and the game just becomes a pinball simulator.
  614. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:09 <+Lazyturd>   Hey, you guys want a #Hotopinion?
  615. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:20 <+Rigtor> i love a cheeky #hotopinion lad
  616. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:21 <+Rigtor> hit me
  617. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:22 <+Megabeastage>   no
  618. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:25 <+Hessen> 80/90/99 changes next to nothing. Its a stat change by 3 and 2.
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  620. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:43 <+JohnnyBravo>    any stat change under 6 or so feels placebo-ish
  621. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:47 <+Rigtor> ^
  622. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:49 <+Hessen> ^
  623. 2016 Mär 19 17:10:58 <+Rigtor> i changed all mine by 11, from 77 to 88 to 99
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  625. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:04 <+Lazyturd>   First of all, make all GKs gold(or above).
  626. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:10 <+Rigtor> >(or above)
  627. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:11 <+Rigtor> >above 99
  628. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:12 <+Rigtor> wew lad
  629. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:13 <+Rigtor> w e w l a d
  630. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:15 <~DrBorisG>   >above 99
  631. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:16 <+Lazyturd>   Oh fugg
  632. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:18 <+Megabeastage>   >99+
  633. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:18 <+Lazyturd>   My bad
  634. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:20 <+Lazyturd>   >99+
  635. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:24 <+Lazyturd>   >shitty of me
  636. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:30 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Plug in the gameshark, we're makign golds 120
  637. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:31 <+bittenfeld> Platinum
  638. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:32 <+bittenfeld> Mad
  639. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:37 <+JohnnyBravo>    NINETY NINE PLUS
  640. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:38 * ART (Mibbit@179CB85C.AA766DFB.591024FE.IP) has joined
  641. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:48 <+Rigtor> WHEN THIS KEEPER HIS 108 YOU'RE GONNA SEE SOME SHIT
  642. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:54 * TOP_KEK (Mibbit@179CB85C.AA766DFB.591024FE.IP) has joined
  643. 2016 Mär 19 17:11:57 <+Hessen> Fucking mulp with 99+ abuse
  644. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:02 <~DrBorisG>   anyway
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  646. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:07 <~DrBorisG>   I think silver GKs is a good place to start
  647. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:07 <+BGP>    again, not saying 80/90/99 is the answer. It's an example. You need to watch it to judge it. If it's too little, just buff it some more. The thing I'm saying is don't take it too far by going straight to 88/99/99.
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  649. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:10 <+Lazyturd>   I just made a fucking meme didnt i?
  650. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:15 <+Megabeastage>   no
  651. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:15 <+BASED_GOD>  You can have this keeper at only 9.99+
  652. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:19 <+DescendingBear> should I test double A for manlets along with GK buff and def buff, or each of those changes should be tested separatedly?
  653. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:19 <+Megabeastage>   you called it a meme
  654. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:20 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Yep, feel proud
  655. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:22 * Marquis (Mibbit@F58F1343.27D42F83.EAB55015.IP) has joined
  656. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:23 <+Megabeastage>   and now it's ded
  657. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:26 * FREEIRC (Mibbit@179CB85C.AA766DFB.591024FE.IP) has joined
  658. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:33 <+BGP>    If you test on 88/99/99, your final stats will look alright, but the games will be boring to watch because it's just pinball.
  659. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:39 <+Rigtor> ^
  660. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:48 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Test them seperatelyu, I'd say, then if they both work you can merge them for further testing
  661. 2016 Mär 19 17:12:53 <+Lazyturd>   But yeah, i think gold keepers for every team should be tried
  662. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <+Lazyturd>   While that seems...extreme i think its worth a shot
  663. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <+Rigtor> I already know exactly how gold keepers will play
  664. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <~DrBorisG>   yeah, I'd see how the manlet buff + GK does against current rules
  665. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:09 <+JohnnyBravo>    definitely test the GK buff on it's own since that seems to be the more pressing of the two issues
  666. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:23 <+Rigtor> gold keepers would save every single easy shot but you'd still get the same amount of goals
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  668. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:30 <+[d]r[d]troit>    <bent> Just for the record, we tested putting all stats on 127 and it didn't do anything. it's capped ;_;
  669. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:33 <+Rigtor> as not even a gold can save a 99 striker's perfect shot in the corner
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  671. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:43 <+Rigtor> and those happen too often
  672. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:46 <+Rigtor> which is why goals ae so high
  673. 2016 Mär 19 17:13:47 <+Megabeastage>   actually yeah, there are some disgustingly unlikely shots that go in in 16
  674. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:03 <+JohnnyBravo>    yeah they can score from little windows of space outside the box
  675. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:07 <+bittenfeld> Also one of the GK buff tests should involve no cards.
  676. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:09 <+Rigtor> like, i have a webm of a 88 keeper in action, let me pull it up
  677. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:14 <+Lazyturd>   Rigtor, that would be my poinmt though
  678. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:19 <+Marqod> What about 85/90/95 for stats?
  679. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:25 <+DescendingBear> okay, I have to go now, thanks for discussion and nice ideas, I'll report once I'll have some results
  680. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:28 <+Lazyturd>   Those easy shots are converted way too many times
  681. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:32 <+Rigtor> this is an 88 keeper http://webmshare.com/OMJLB
  682. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:49 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Good luck DescendingBear
  683. 2016 Mär 19 17:14:59 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, take care.
  684. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:09 <+Megabeastage>   see ya
  685. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:12 <+BGP>    IMO we don't need huge changes. Winter was alright. We just need some tweaking. I don't think we're going to get anywhere unless we've got some results to actually talk about (keeper buffs, mostly). IMO, keeper buffs by themselves are ueless, because most goals happen because of terrible defending.
  686. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:33 <+bittenfeld> that's an unfair webm. the test would be direct shots or 1-on-1s.
  687. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:39 <~DrBorisG>   yeah the issue is we have a lot of proposed stat change systems
  688. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:48 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, we should do minor tweaks if something is to be done.
  689. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:49 <~DrBorisG>   where obviously we can't go with all of them
  690. 2016 Mär 19 17:15:58 <+Rigtor> the problem is not enough people are actually testing and presenting data tbh
  691. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:07 <+Hessen> I'll probably do a test cup, I hope others do to
  692. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:12 <+Rigtor> like, what, 4 or 5 people came in with data today?
  693. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:13 <~DrBorisG>   lel welcome to my last 4 years
  694. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:18 <~DrBorisG>   nobody tests
  695. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:20 <+Lazyturd>   And while my gold keeper suggestion isnt a minor tweak per say, it should be a platform for future testing.
  696. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:26 <+Megabeastage>   Brois, delegate a few of us to test lel
  697. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:35 <+Marqod> Going afk for a while now, hopefully I'll be back before the end of discussions.
  698. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:37 <~DrBorisG>   I can't force people to
  699. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:37 <+BGP>    someone needs to stream tests, because results are useless unless you see how the game plays.
  700. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:41 <+Rigtor> nigga i'm from the days where GB made changes without consulting anyone other than himself don't you backtalk me about people not testing changes
  701. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:51 <+bittenfeld> just put the tests up on klaxa
  702. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:54 <+bittenfeld> or something
  703. 2016 Mär 19 17:16:54 <+BGP>    you cant judge how effective changes are based off stat screens
  704. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:00 <+[d]r[d]troit>   How can we test changes if Test is still dead?
  705. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:27 * Heavenly_Pond has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  706. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:38 <~DrBorisG>   rip test I cri everytim
  707. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:38 <+Rigtor> is test still dead?
  708. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:39 <+Hessen> Is he tho? Check the twitter first dtroid
  709. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:57 <+Megabeastage>   #pray4test
  710. 2016 Mär 19 17:17:58 <+Rigtor> oh yeah dtroit you're here
  711. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:00 <+Rigtor> for something i mentioned earlier
  712. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:05 <+Lazyturd>   rippi test
  713. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:08 <+Hessen> https://twitter.com/isteststilldead yep, hes still dead
  714. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:09 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I'd offer to test, but I wouldn't know what to look for
  715. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:09 <+Rigtor> what do you think about testing a different medal format for the wrassle cup next week
  716. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:13 <+Lazyturd>   barely even knew ye
  717. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:17 <+Rigtor> seeing as it's just a big meme
  718. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:19 <+Rigtor> with fake teams
  719. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:24 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I'd be for that, it'd be a good way to make it useful instead of just fun
  720. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:55 <+Rigtor> well Boris the wrassle cup is literally next week
  721. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:55 <+Lazyturd>   The problem with medal change is that we need DATA for that
  722. 2016 Mär 19 17:18:57 <+Rigtor> so it's in the right timeframe
  723. 2016 Mär 19 17:19:03 <+Lazyturd>   And as boris said, were on a clock.
  724. 2016 Mär 19 17:19:06 <+BGP>    Babysteps, honestly. Winter wasn't that bad, considering how terrible we thought it was going to be.
  725. 2016 Mär 19 17:19:26 <+Tenko-G>    It wasn't as crazy as unfriendlies.
  726. 2016 Mär 19 17:19:39 <+Megabeastage>   unfriendlies was quite broken
  727. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:13 <+Rigtor> i didn't post the stats publically but I made 16 fake teams/historic fake teams in PES16
  728. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:18 <+Rigtor> and when people didn't have meme tactics
  729. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:19 <+Hessen> I gave f4r some tests too, got about the same results as NED
  730. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:20 <+Rigtor> aka my teams
  731. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:22 <+Rigtor> it was as normal
  732. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:31 <+Rigtor> well, normal, it went in line with winter
  733. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:40 <+Rigtor> but here's the problem. The babbies is full of people like SDA
  734. 2016 Mär 19 17:20:45 <+Rigtor> so we may see the ridiculous 8-6's still
  735. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:03 <+BGP>    People are underestimating the impact of small changes. We shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel.
  736. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:04 <+Tenko-G>    You make that sound like it's a bad thing.
  737. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:27 <+Megabeastage>   tbh Rigtor, SDA is going marginally less meme
  738. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:37 <+Rigtor> do you believe that
  739. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:38 <+Megabeastage>   but I still expect obscene decisions
  740. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:40 <+Rigtor> look in to your heart
  741. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:42 <+Rigtor> and tell me you believe that
  742. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:51 <+Megabeastage>   I believe
  743. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:55 <+Megabeastage>   fak you
  744. 2016 Mär 19 17:21:57 <+Tenko-G>    Well it's like your life is sucked out as streamer when you have like 50 goals a day.
  745. 2016 Mär 19 17:22:08 <+Megabeastage>   #SENSIBLESDA
  746. 2016 Mär 19 17:22:18 <+Rigtor> #JusticeForYaoi #WeWantElites
  747. 2016 Mär 19 17:22:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>   When you have multiple goalhorns looping, some multiple times, that gets a bit shitty
  748. 2016 Mär 19 17:22:50 * iMaasie has quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds)
  749. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:13 <+Rigtor> my biggest concern with goalhorns is that the went from 30 seconds long in PES13 to 40 seconds in 14 to 50 in 15 to over a minute in 16
  750. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:16 <+Rigtor> why is this happening
  751. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:21 <+Rigtor> nobody likes replays in actual PES
  752. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:27 <+Rigtor> is this an adaption for us? Does konami love us?
  753. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:39 <~DrBorisG>   they did see the final boss with the boats
  754. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:44 <+Megabeastage>   the goal replays are getting longer
  755. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:46 <~DrBorisG>   you have to wonder
  756. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:47 <+Megabeastage>   that's why
  757. 2016 Mär 19 17:23:48 <+Lazyturd>   i dunno
  758. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:04 <+Rigtor> i found fanart of the boats and sent it to ved a few weeks ago
  759. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:04 <+BGP>    they do it for youtube people who make MLG goal compilations
  760. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:12 <+Megabeastage>   lelwot
  761. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:18 <+Megabeastage>   do you have the link still?
  762. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:39 <+Rigtor> uhhh
  763. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:43 <~DrBorisG>   so is there anything else we need to throw on the table
  764. 2016 Mär 19 17:24:44 <+Rigtor> you can't post images in irc can you (i don't normally do this shit)
  765. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:01 <@Lear>   No but you can link.
  766. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:09 <+Lazyturd>   Just puush it or something.
  767. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:16 <+BASED_GOD>  Not a damn thing
  768. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:19 <+Hessen> goalhorn time has nearly doubled which sucks i think
  769. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:25 <+Rigtor> http://i.imgur.com/0wgDgHF.jpg
  770. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:29 <+Megabeastage>   I think, the prevalent ideas have been presented Boris
  771. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:34 <~DrBorisG>   well the host can always push start past the ingame PES replays and just use the user controllable one
  772. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:37 * Marquis has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  773. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:42 <+Lazyturd>   Yeah, if goal amounts are to stay the same, we need to lessen goalhorn times.
  774. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:44 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I think we're missing the biggest idea
  775. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:47 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Why PES and not FIFA?
  776. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:53 <+Lazyturd>   >feefur
  777. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:54 <~DrBorisG>   so how can we narrow down what the best stat compression / medal change / defensive stat boost options are
  778. 2016 Mär 19 17:25:56 <+Hessen> Or just skip the user controllable one. I like that one the lease
  779. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:01 <+BASED_GOD>  >FIFA
  780. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:09 <+Megabeastage>   >FIFA
  781. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:12 <+Megabeastage>   >feefur
  782. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:16 <+Megabeastage>   ISHYGDDT
  783. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:22 * Q2 (Mibbit@9B5A770B.29D3F4A7.C05836FF.IP) has joined
  784. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:30 <+Rigtor> let's have the cup on football manager
  785. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:40 <+BGP>    Is there a rough plan for when the summer cup is going to happen?
  786. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:41 <+Hessen> IS THIS LIVE? ARE THESE REAL PLAYERS?
  787. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:45 <+Lazyturd>   Nope
  788. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:49 <+Lazyturd>   This is like wrasslin
  789. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:49 <+Megabeastage>   ?live
  790. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:52 <+Megabeastage>   >real
  791. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:53 <+Lazyturd>   Everything is predetermined
  792. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:55 <+Rigtor> trb cup when http://webmshare.com/eR6G5
  793. 2016 Mär 19 17:26:58 <+Lazyturd>   Nothing is real
  794. 2016 Mär 19 17:27:05 <+Lazyturd>   Your existance is a lie.
  795. 2016 Mär 19 17:27:51 <+bittenfeld> make a google docs for tests so we can standardize the test spreadsheet
  796. 2016 Mär 19 17:27:58 <+Lazyturd>   ^ that tbh
  797. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:03 <+Lazyturd>   It actually makes sense
  798. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:04 <+Megabeastage>   yeah
  799. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:11 <+JohnnyBravo>    could easily become a disaster but good idea
  800. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:12 <+Lazyturd>   (unlike 90% of what we said here)
  801. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:31 * Sda_phone has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  802. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:31 * SUPERtwinky (SUPERtwink@B30A7511.EDEAA7DB.7FF2BCE4.IP) has joined
  803. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:33 <+Megabeastage>   Also if we test, can we have a standard slew of tactics
  804. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:35 <+Lazyturd>   It requires trust
  805. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:35 <+BASED_GOD>  >cyclo's opinions matter
  806. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:36 <~DrBorisG>   We can like wiki link it or something but I have zero google docs experience
  807. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:47 <+Megabeastage>   i.e. as specific set of teams/games
  808. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:47 <+Rigtor> oh, I know, instead of testing a format change, the wrasslecup can be on SDA's patch
  809. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:54 <+Lazyturd>   and trust combined with 4chan hasent worked out well.
  810. 2016 Mär 19 17:28:54 <+JohnnyBravo>    I don't believe you can fix refs outside of a patch
  811. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:08 <+Hessen> Making it completely open and editable to the public is a disaster waiting to happen
  812. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:19 <+bittenfeld> We have to agree on the paramaeters of the tests. Are we testing with random conditions or all green, all orange etc?
  813. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:21 <+Rigtor> would have to get the patch to me and tenk so I can make the save and he can use it without breaking the game, but uh
  814. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:23 <+Rigtor> yeah
  815. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:26 <+BGP>    You cant really test multiple A positions. It's just something people will have available to them.
  816. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:48 <+JohnnyBravo>    you could run an invitational with it
  817. 2016 Mär 19 17:29:54 <+Megabeastage>   there's too many possibilities for that
  818. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:04 <+JohnnyBravo>    and see what people come up with
  819. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:15 <+Megabeastage>   some which are retarded and some that makes sense
  820. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:19 <+Rigtor> i don't know if i can trust something SDA's australian semen covered yaoi hands have touched without it breaking my PES
  821. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:20 <+Rigtor> but boy can we trry
  822. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:23 <+[d]r[d]troit>   I'd be up for running a test invitational on stream so someon who knows what they're looking for could se what they need to see tbh
  823. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:27 <+BGP>    which are the SDA changes again?
  824. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:34 * Stefan_Burnett (Hiryuu@ABACA0F.B6E66996.43F9F159.IP) has left
  825. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:37 <@Lear>   He has a patch he found.
  826. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:42 <@Lear>   He wants to try that.
  827. 2016 Mär 19 17:30:51 <+[d]r[d]troit>   >yfw SDA's patch c-crashes the game
  828. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:01 <+Megabeastage>   this is how /y/ crashes pes
  829. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:02 <+Lazyturd>   of course it does
  830. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:05 <+JohnnyBravo>    YOU CAN'T SEE IT
  831. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:08 <+Lazyturd>   what the fuck are you expecting.
  832. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:18 <+Rigtor> yeah if anyone has the link, i'm obviously not a manager so i can afford to fuck up my PES with a patch before spring
  833. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:38 <+BGP>    Some kind of bootleg 3rd party AI patch sounds like a terrible idea, IMO.
  834. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:38 <+bittenfeld> Nay.
  835. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:42 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Uh oh, bors is retiring
  836. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:43 <+Megabeastage>   what have we got so far?
  837. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:45 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Press F
  838. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:48 <+Chance> Sure
  839. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:51 <+Chance> AHEM
  840. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:54 <+Chance> imgay
  841. 2016 Mär 19 17:31:55 <+Chance> thank you
  842. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:04 <+Lazyturd>   >big announcement
  843. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:08 <+Lazyturd>   PogcHAMP
  844. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:09 <+Rigtor> the announcement is that after my contribution to this discussion i am unbanned congrats guys
  845. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:13 <+Rigtor> welcome to the future
  846. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:16 <+BASED_GOD>  Fuck your annoncement
  847. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:17 <+Lazyturd>   Oh boi
  848. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:22 <+JohnnyBravo>    bring back leddy
  849. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:23 <+BASED_GOD>  announcement
  850. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:25 <+Megabeastage>   aww shit
  851. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:30 <+Megabeastage>   DF mk 2 again
  852. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:32 <+Hessen> congrats rigtor
  853. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:38 <+Rigtor> it was worth a shot ;_;7
  854. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:52 <+Lazyturd>   #bringbackGB
  855. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:56 <+Chance> #justiceforBetRigtor
  856. 2016 Mär 19 17:32:58 <+[d]r[d]troit>   Red Dragonfag
  857. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:08 <+JohnnyBravo>    #BringBackTorres #2stars
  858. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:15 <+Megabeastage>   #2stars
  859. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:17 <+bittenfeld> Bring back Tottori
  860. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:21 <+[d]r[d]troit>   #BringBackBoris
  861. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:32 <+Lazyturd>   >totto-goes missing for a year
  862. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:38 <+Hessen> #bringbacknickleddy #bringbackafwulcommentaryandliteralrigging
  863. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:42 * DrBorisG removes voice from [d]r[d]troit BASED_GOD BGP
  864. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>   ░░░░▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░░░░
  865. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>   ░░░█▒▒░▄▄▀▀▀▀▄░▒░▄▄▄▄▄░▀▀▄░░░░
  866. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>   ░░█▒░▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒░▀▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒█░░░░░
  867. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>   ░█▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▄▒█░░░░
  868. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>   ▄▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒█░░
  869. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:50 * DrBorisG removes voice from bittenfeld Chance DescendingBear
  870. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:50 <+Lazyturd>   █▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒░░░░░░░▒█
  871. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:52 <+Lazyturd>   █░▒▒▀▄▄▒░░░░░░▒▄▀▄▄░░░░░░▒█
  872. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:53 <+Lazyturd>   ░█░▒▒▒▒▀▄▄▄▄▄███████▄▄▄▄▄▀
  873. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:55 <+Megabeastage>   oh shit we'e silenced
  874. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:55 <+Lazyturd>   ░░█░▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▄▀▀████▀▀▄▀▒▒█
  875. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:57 <+Lazyturd>   ░░░▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▀
  876. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:58 <+Megabeastage>   save us
  877. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:59 <+Megabeastage>   SAVE
  878. 2016 Mär 19 17:33:59 <+Lazyturd>   EBIN
  879. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:01 <+Megabeastage>   US
  880. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:01 <+JohnnyBravo>    benis
  881. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 <+Hessen> b
  882. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 <+Hessen> e
  883. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 * DrBorisG removes voice from Lazyturd JohnnyBravo Hessen
  884. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:07 <+Megabeastage>   HELP
  885. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:08 <+Megabeastage>   H
  886. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:09 <+Megabeastage>   E
  887. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:10 <+Megabeastage>   L
  888. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:11 <+Megabeastage>   P
  889. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:15 * DrBorisG removes voice from Marqod Megabeastage Rigtor
  890. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:21 * DrBorisG removes voice from Tenko-G
  891. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:42 * DrBorisG sets mode -m on #4chancup
  892. 2016 Mär 19 17:34:42 * DrBorisG sets mode -N on #4chancup
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