[10:33] <+Ricky> I'm a win
[10:33] <+Jobe> hell argue it
[10:33] <+Jobe> and hell lose
[10:33] <+Ricky> just you don't see it
[10:33] <+Jobe> as always
[10:33] <+Jobe> which is generally why he is ftl
[10:33] <+anotherjess> haah
[10:33] <+Ricky> I don't always lose
[10:33] <+Jobe> Ricky: in your eyes
[10:33] * reggie (ircd@reggie.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #afternet
[10:33] <+Ricky> your argument is always 'you're losing'
[10:33] <+Ricky> and it's in your eyes too
[10:33] <+Jobe> uh no Ricky
[10:34] <@SiRVulcaN|Work> hm
[10:34] <+Jobe> 'lo sv
[10:34] <+Ricky> er, yes it is. All you ever do is say 'You're losing at arguments again, so I win'
[10:34] <+Jobe> Ricky: no I dont
[10:34] <+Jobe> :)
[10:34] <+Jobe> ive got months of logs that prove that wrong
[10:34] <+Jobe> :P
[10:35] <+Ricky> Give us an example later on then
[10:35] <@SiRVulcaN|Work> hey Jobe
[10:35] <+Ricky> right now I feel like collapsing on the bed in sleep deprived agony
[10:35] <+Jobe> Ricky: I dont need to, im not the one trying to prove something that isnt true
[10:35] <+Jobe> :D
[10:35] <+Ricky> Fine, I'll keep watching next time we argue
[10:35] <+Ricky> reminds me, I need to email someone
[10:37] <+Ricky> also, I'm not trying to prove something that isn't true. I'm challenging you to provide evidence for your claim that you don't just do that.
[10:37] <+Jobe> youre making an untrue claim Ricky
[10:37] <+Jobe> youre the one throwing the accusation
[10:37] <+Jobe> thus you are the one who has to prove your accusation correct
[10:38] <+Jobe> innocent until proven guilty
[10:38] <+Jobe> remember that
[10:38] <+Jobe> works in courts of law too
[10:38] <+Ricky> actually it usually works where the defence DEFENDS their case
[10:38] <+Jobe> no
[10:38] <+Jobe> in a court of law
[10:38] <+Ricky> they prove they didn't do it
[10:39] <@SiRVulcaN|Work> Jobe, if your interested ive got LOC working in qwebirc
[10:39] <+Jobe> the defence only has to disprove the offence's evidence
[10:39] <+Jobe> nothing more
[10:39] <+Jobe> the offence has to prove beyond resonable doubt that the defendant is guilty
[10:39] <+Jobe> SiRVulcaN|Work: nice
[10:39] <+Ricky> same thing you know?
[10:39] <+Jobe> not really Ricky
[10:39] * @Ravill (ggg@165.166.172.115) Quit (Quit)
[10:39] <+Ricky> Defend the accusation
[10:39] <+Jobe> in a court of law, the offence has to do the proving
[10:39] <+Ricky> defend the case
[10:40] <+Jobe> Ricky: I have by challenging your evidence against me
[10:40] <+Jobe> in your unsubstanciated claim
[10:40] <+Jobe> :)
[10:40] <+Ricky> it's your word against mine
[10:40] <+Ricky> usually the defence has to provide counter evidence
[10:40] <+Jobe> Ricky: again you have thus far failed to prove beyond resonable doubt that your accusation is true
[10:41] <PeanutHorst> * R0b has offered startkeylogger (4 bytes)
[10:41] <PeanutHorst> rofl
[10:41] <PeanutHorst> fail
[10:41] <+Jobe> the defence has to do no such thing
[10:41] <+R0b> haha
[10:41] <+Jobe> the defence only has to prove a possibility of doubt in the evidence
[10:41] <+Ricky> and there you go again - 'you're wrong'
[10:41] <+R0b> yea PeanutHorst noticed
[10:41] <+Jobe> Ricky: I didnt say youre wrong at all
[10:41] * Furo (Ferret@theferret.Users.AfterNET.Org) has joined #afternet
[10:41] <+R0b> PeanutHorst: i actually sent the same one back
[10:41] <+Jobe> I said youve failed to prove your claim
[10:41] <+Jobe> thats not "youre wrong"
[10:41] <+R0b> but appended a message under yours
[10:42] * nesa-laptop (nesa@the.end.is.near) Quit (Quit)
[10:42] <+Ricky> the defence has to PROVE the prosecution wrong
[10:42] <+Ricky> else they
[10:42] <+Jobe> Ricky: youd be a terrable offence lawyer
[10:42] <+R0b> PeanutHorst: under your "lol" i wrote "wut"
[10:42] <+Ricky> 're not free, and it may go to a retrial
[10:42] <+Jobe> expecting the defence to disprove claims with no evidence
[10:42] <+Jobe> no the defence doesnt
[10:42] * +R0b decides it's time to go to bed
[10:43] <+Jobe> the defence only has to place doubt in the offence's evidence
[10:43] <+Jobe> its as simple as that
[10:43] <+Jobe> go sit on a jury for 2 weeks
[10:43] <+Jobe> I dare you
[10:43] <+R0b> g'night everybody
[10:43] <+R0b> g'night jobe
[10:43] <+R0b> if you can take time away from ur speach
[10:43] * POWDERDUCK (POWDERDUCK@webtv.dialup-4.167.160.38.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) has joined #afternet
[10:43] <+R0b> to say it back
[10:43] <+Ricky> like my aunty did? They were told that if the evidence isn't relevant, discount it
[10:43] <+Jobe> cya Ricky
[10:43] <+Jobe> R0b*
[10:43] <+Ricky> but he was guilty anyway
[10:43] * TheFerret22 (Ferret@theferret.Users.AfterNET.Org) Quit (Ping timeout)
[10:43] <+R0b> lol
[10:43] <+R0b> please tell me that was thx to pressing tab not enough times
[10:43] <+Ricky> bastard did carjacking
[10:44] <+Jobe> Ricky: they were also told they cannot legally find the defendant guilty unless the offence proves beyond reasonable doubt the guilt of the defendant
[10:44] <+Jobe> that's the law
[10:44] <+Ricky> if there is guilt but not beyond reasonable doubt the defendant is not off free
[10:44] <+Ricky> it could go to a retrial
[10:44] <+Jobe> Ricky: if there is any ammount of doubt as to the guilt of the defendant, then finding the defendant guilty is a crime in itself
[10:45] <+Ricky> just like Mr Spector yesterday. Ideally you should provide counter evidence and prove the prosecution is wrong.
[10:45] <+Jobe> you dont prove the prosecution wrong
[10:45] <+Jobe> you dont have to
[10:45] <+Ricky> they don't find him guilty
[10:45] <+Jobe> the prosecution has to prove your guilt
[10:46] <+Jobe> </discussion>
[10:46] <+Ricky> they find him guilty, but not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It may go to a retrial, it may be thrown out
[10:46] <+Jobe> because this is simply going nowhere
[10:47] * POWDERDUCK (POWDERDUCK@webtv.dialup-4.167.160.38.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) has left #afternet
[10:47] <+Ricky> the defendant is not off the hook just because they're not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You cannot grasp that, and I'm going to throw up now, BRB
[10:47] * X3 sets mode: +l 110
[10:48] <+Jobe> Ricky: you cannot grasp that regardless of retrial or not, the defendant cannot be found guilty unless guilt has been proven beyond reasonable doubt
[10:48] <+Jobe> end of
[10:48] <+Ricky> I've grasped that
[10:48] <+Jobe> the same applies to a retrial
[10:48] <+Jobe> a retrial doesnt automatically mean the defendant isnt off the hook
[10:49] <+Jobe> nor does it mean that some doubt is allowed
[10:49] <+Jobe> the rule applies to all triels
[10:49] <+Jobe> regardless
[10:49] <+Ricky> but you seem to imply that if they're not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then they're off the hook
[10:49] <+Jobe> Ricky: they pretty much are Ricky
[10:49] <+Ricky> er no
[10:49] <+Jobe> most cases where the defendant is found not guilty never go to a retrial
[10:50] <+Ricky> this is in the case of a hazy trial, they nearly always go to a retrial
[10:50] <+Jobe> so Ricky, if I accused you of something you didnt do, took you to court, and you was found not guilty, would you be off the hook?
[10:50] <+Ricky> not guilty != guilt not proven beyond a reasonable doubt
[10:51] <+Jobe> guilt not proven beyond resonable doubt is in the eyes of the law not guilty
[10:51] <+Jobe> you cannot be considered guilty until proven guilty
[10:51] <+Ricky> it is not that at all
[10:51] * Castor_Troy is now known as Castor_Troy[g0ne]
[10:51] <+Jobe> go sit on a jury Ricky
[10:51] <+Ricky> it is the possibility of guilt, but not proven
[10:51] <+Jobe> seriously
[10:51] <+Jobe> wake up and smell the real world
[10:52] <+Jobe> now unlike you I cant argue all day
[10:52] <+Jobe> I have work to do
[10:52] <+Jobe> life experiance to continue gaining
[10:52] <+Jobe> money to earn
[10:52] <+Ricky> you don't know what I do off this computer, that's a nice accusation you've given there
[10:52] <+Jobe> Ricky: because the opinions you have show no life experiance of any kind
[10:52] <+Jobe> they show more dillusion then Gordon Brown
[10:53] <+Jobe> and youve never been able to see that
[10:53] <+Jobe> half of this network tells you that
[10:53] <+Jobe> and yet you still dont get it
[10:53] * @SiRVulcaN|Work blinks
[10:53] <+Ricky> you don't know how I spend the time off this computer
[10:53] <+Ricky> life experience half the time is about learning
[10:54] <+Jobe> Ricky: I didnt say what you do off your computer in that last statement, so your response is irellevent to the argument
[10:54] <+Ricky> I haven't learnt lots of stuff yet, but you're implying that because I'm putting my education into practice I have zero life experience
[10:55] <+Jobe> Ricky: you give that impression
[10:55] <+Jobe> if you dont want people to think that of you
[10:55] <+Jobe> stop giving that impression
[10:55] <+Jobe> if you dont like what im saying, then well you know what to do
[10:55] <+Jobe> but im only telling you how things are
[10:55] <+Ricky> Well that's tough that I have trouble putting my point across. I cannot not give that impression because this is my writing style. Give over. I'm more in the real world than anyone in my year at school.
[10:56] <+anotherjess> nobody loves me, everybody hates me, let's all go eat worms
[10:56] <+Ricky> You're telling me a) what I already know b) what you think is right because you're a tory supporter
[10:58] <+Jobe> Ricky: its not you have trouble putting your point accross, it's that your points rarely fit with reality
[10:58] <+Ricky> and I don't like what you're saying with regards to treating me like a total retard when I'm not, but you're not going to stop me exercising my freedom here. You're not the one to stop that.
[10:58] <+Jobe> and ricky I dont currently support any party
[10:58] <+Ricky> Still right wing tosh
[10:58] <+Jobe> Ricky: who happen to be more in touch with reality then you
[10:58] <+Ricky> right wing = lunatics
[10:59] <+Jobe> Ricky: im not trying to stop you excercising your freedom
[10:59] <+Jobe> im trying to stop you making the idiot out of yourself that you are making
[11:00] <+Ricky> and it's well proven I have trouble putting my point across. English teacher noted that in fast moving situations my English arguing skills deteriorated slightly. I don't handle it well.
[11:00] <+Ricky> Yes, there you go again
[11:00] <+Ricky> accusations
[11:00] <+Ricky> 'You're an idiot'
[11:00] <+Ricky> you're implying I'm an idiot off this computer
[11:00] <+Ricky> and must chuck again
[11:00] <+Jobe> Ricky: not so long ago you were making accusations without evidence and claiming you didnt have to prove them
[11:00] <+Ricky> back in a min
[11:01] <+Jobe> my proof that goes with my accusatons is your entire conversation today
[11:01] <+Jobe> as for having trouble putting your point across, I got an E for GCSE English, I myself have trouble putting my points into words
[11:01] <+Jobe> so dont use that excuse with me
[11:02] <+Ricky> You and I aren't the ones to judge whether my conversation is proof or not. Your word against mine.
[11:02] <+Ricky> also, there are even one or two people in afternet who have noted I may have a little learning disorder.
[11:02] <+Jobe> Ricky: and to those who judge I provide your conversation as proof
[11:03] * penten (Mibbit@221.239.56.34) Quit (Quit)
[11:03] <+anotherjess> hmm
[11:03] <+Ricky> and I provide your accusations as proof you're baiting me to say things like this.
[11:03] <+anotherjess> i think r0bs asleep lmao
[11:03] * X3 sets mode: +l 109
[11:03] <+Ricky> well he did say 'I'm going to bed'
[11:03] <+Jobe> the problem is Ricky there are a few of us who try to help you by putting you straight and trying to stop you making a fool of yourself
[11:03] <+anotherjess> oh yeah
[11:03] <+anotherjess> he did too
[11:04] <+Ricky> why?
[11:04] <+Jobe> but instead you chose to take it way out of proportion and argue
[11:04] <+anotherjess> lol, my bad
[11:04] * POWDERDUCK (POWDERDUCK@webtv.dialup-4.167.160.38.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) has joined #afternet
[11:04] <+Ricky> because I don't listen to people on this channel. I don't trust people I don't know that well
[11:04] <+anotherjess> so why are you here?
[11:04] <+Jobe> but that doesnt mean argue with them though
[11:04] <+Ricky> I get an impression you're leading me to make an idiot of myself
[11:05] <+Jobe> something you will find out there in the real world is that sometimes when you disagree with someone, arguing wont help, the best thing you can do is just walk away
[11:05] <+Ricky> and again
[11:05] <+Jobe> Ricky: I dont need to, a lot of people think you manage that all by yourself
[11:05] <+Ricky> you don't know what I do off this computer
[11:05] <+Ricky> FYI, I do walk away a lot of the time
[11:05] <+Jobe> Ricky: I dont care what you do off your computer
[11:06] <+Ricky> you're implying what I do on this computer is what I do everywhere though
[11:06] <+Jobe> my point is you act and behave in a way that suggests you have little to no experiance in the world
[11:06] <+Jobe> other then what you have at school/college
[11:06] <+Ricky> I'm a different person when off the computer
[11:06] <+Jobe> school and college can NEVER prepare you for the world beyond
[11:07] <+Jobe> so use some of your real world experiance in your arguments then
[11:07] <+Jobe> cause so far ive seen little of you doing that
[11:07] <+Jobe> and mostly you just using google instead
[11:08] <+Ricky> On the contrary that school and college doesn't prepare you. While it doesn't help many of the situations, it's the base of your knowledge. It's taught you to read and write.
[11:08] <+Jobe> knowledge isnt experiance though
[11:08] <+Jobe> knowledge of experiance is
[11:09] <+Jobe> and believe it or not, there is no substitute for experiance itself
[11:09] <+Ricky> and school can help with that.
[11:10] <+Ricky> work experience (although I think a week working for a company you'll never work for again isn't experience and pointless), visits to sites, foreign trips to put languages into practice and gain experience using it
[11:10] <+Ricky> while they're trivial things
[11:10] <+Ricky> it does give you experience
[11:10] <+Ricky> they all add up
[11:10] <POWDERDUCK> Rickey
[11:10] <+Ricky> I agree that working in a classroom isn't experience though
[11:11] <POWDERDUCK> Stop it.
[11:11] <+Ricky> I'd already finished
[11:12] <POWDERDUCK> i like it.