14:36:15 <Taw> [redacted] oh boy
14:36:15 <Wesley>  Twitter  @[redacted]: Oh no Weasyl, please do not protect rapists please do not punish rape survivors for speaking out
14:38:52 <Matt> [redacted] yeah, what is going on
14:38:52 <Wesley>  Twitter  @[redacted]: Weasyl essentially protecting a rapist and silencing a rape victim. Neat.
14:39:21 <Taw> cause y'know, it's not like we don't allow call outs of any kind, regardless of the reason
14:39:53 <Ikani> or that we offered to let them make it just slightly less calloutish
14:40:51 <Taw> idk why people seem to think that certain things should be allowed even if it's against the rules, just because of a certain subject it touches on. Rules are rules. <.<
14:41:17 <term> but taw, their case is special.
14:41:18 <pinardilla> is it the one from a couple months ago that didn't name names, or a different one
14:41:43 <SkylerBunny> Just to play devil's advocate, then why do we allow the [redacted] journals on [redacted]? They're roughly as substantiated and suggest he's embezzeling money.
14:42:07 <Ikani> this one isn't naming names, but they're linking directly to where they are naming names
14:42:30 <Ikani> SkylerBunny: We've had some minor updates for [redacted] to make, but there is that
14:42:48 <SkylerBunny> Well, maybe our further responses to this person should be more along those lines.
14:42:56 <SkylerBunny> "If you would be willing to change X to Y, we can let it stand."
14:43:01 <Ikani> we did
14:43:05 <Taw> they refused
14:43:05 <term> that's what I already did.
14:43:06 <Ikani> they responded with "no"
14:43:30 <term> I said you have two options: either edit the journal to remove the links or remove it in 48 hours.
14:43:44 <term> and they responded, as Taw said, with the one word answer "no"
14:43:44 <Ikani> (worded nicer of course)
14:43:55 <Ikani> er, yours was, that is
14:44:01 <term> yes of course.
14:44:09 <Fiz> weasyl isnt the place for this crap
14:44:13 <Fiz> how dare we have rules
14:44:25 <term> we're an art gallery website, not the sex offender registry.
14:44:44 <pinardilla> perhaps we should get on top of this and note what we did offer before removing it
14:45:11 <SkylerBunny> (Also make sure that whatever you reply with has these points in it, because you know they'll immediately repost it to Tumblr anyway. Just assume you're talking to the world.)
14:45:26 <term> yes we're aware.
14:46:00 <Fiz> "this isn't even going into them fucking with my rape comic submission" wait waht
14:46:13 <SkylerBunny> Fay asked the same thing, Fiz.
14:46:15 <term> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/FOg4DgBh4WdHPWiJDDZq/
14:46:15 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #FOg4DgBh4WdHPWiJDDZq at spacepaste
14:46:27 <term> this is the response we're planning on going with.
14:46:31 <Fiz> https://www.weasyl.com/staffnotes/[redacted] oh it got rerated
14:46:31 <Wesley>  Page title  Weasyl
14:46:34 <Fiz> 'fucked with'
14:47:14 <Fiz> term, that looks good
14:47:26 <term> thanks to Fay for that.
14:47:39 <SkylerBunny> One possible suggest: 'If you are willing, we would like to'.
14:48:01 <SkylerBunny> (Just to think on it. Makes it more of a positive reachout on our part.)
14:48:06 <pinardilla> looking at the removed submission, the description says "If you want to know who my rapist is, you can check out my tumblr or twitter.
14:48:06 <pinardilla> I can't directly link you to anything or it might be considered a call-out post."
14:48:17 <pinardilla> is that what we're considering a link, or did it get changed?
14:48:38 <Ikani> pina: that part is actually fine to have in
14:48:46 <pinardilla> where's the link then
14:48:51 <Ikani> the link is on the journal
14:49:10 <pinardilla> oh, there's another part to this?
14:49:21 <Fiz> https://www.weasyl.com/journal/70879/warning-to-anyone-attending-mff-please-read its this
14:49:21 <Wesley>  Page title  Warning to anyone attending MFF - please read — Weasyl
14:49:22 <term> https://www.weasyl.com/journal/70879/warning-to-anyone-attending-mff-please-read?anyway=true
14:49:22 <Wesley>  Page title  Warning to anyone attending MFF - please read — Weasyl
14:49:33 <term> this is what this is all about pina.
14:49:34 <Fiz> therse three direct links
14:49:54 <Fiz> honestly if she jsut changed it to "if you want more information, please go to my tumblr" without making it a direct link to it all
14:50:07 <Ikani> yup that would be fine
14:50:18 <Ikani> even saying "in my faq" is perfectly fine
14:50:23 <Fiz> yeah
14:51:06 <Fiz> like shit we let that person keep that journal up where they were calling me a pedophile as long as they editted it to not have a direct link
14:51:07 <SkylerBunny> Maybe we should be more explicit about that. Term's first response isn't quite that direct.
14:51:12 <term> the fact that its a direct link we can't really excuse. if it was just, "go to my tumblr" then whatever, that requires a bit more snooping on someone's part then "click here to see my rapist"
14:51:20 <SkylerBunny> 'If you wish to say 'If you want to find out X and Y about the person, go see my Tumblr or Twitter.'
14:51:23 <Ikani> Term, I'm tempted to say don't pull the journal yet, and in the response something like "We're only asking you to remove the links themselves, not any of the text."
14:51:34 <Fiz> yeah maybe we need to spell it out for them
14:51:39 <SkylerBunny> And this: perfectly acceptable. "..."
14:51:42 <pinardilla> alright, I remembered the submission and I thought that's what got pulled, which I would have had a problem with
14:51:47 <pinardilla> but I can see why the journal needs to go
14:51:48 <SkylerBunny> Spell it out for them, yes, exactly.
14:52:06 <Fiz> the submission didnt get removed, they said it got "fucked with" for being bumped to moderate
14:52:11 <Fiz> which is like...ok
14:52:19 <Ikani> the journal doesn't even need to go, it just needs to not have that text be clickable
14:52:42 <term> the only reason we'd remove it is for outright refusal to do anything on their part.
14:52:49 <pinardilla> since this is becoming a public thing, though, we should maybe dedicate some space in our response to acknowledging that this is a difficult issue and we understand their frustratin
14:52:56 <pinardilla> frustration*
14:53:04 <Fiz> yeah
14:53:07 <Ikani> agreed
14:53:12 <SkylerBunny> Probably. And also, as I say, even if it means 'If you say these words, we will gladly let the journal stand.'
14:53:39 <SkylerBunny> 'If you want blah blah blah check out my Twitter or Tumblr sites.'
14:54:15 <SkylerBunny> The way she's seeing it, and I kind of get it, is 'You can't say it your way or it'll be removed. We didn't give an explicit counteroffer ending with 'And with that, you can leave it up.'
14:54:58 <term> as far as I'm concerned about pulling the journal they still have a 48 hour deadline. so yeah if we want to keep trying to get them to understand then great.
14:55:10 <term> I'll get another response ready.
14:55:14 <SkylerBunny> Kind of like with [redacted] when we said 'Look, you can leave this journal up, but sentence X has to go.'
14:55:23 <Fiz> yeah
14:55:27 <Ikani> term: yeah agreed on that
14:55:52 <Ikani> offer them the clarification, but in the background the journal still goes if they refuse
14:56:04 <Fiz> basically have to say "direct links to the info is something we can't have, indirect links or saying 'check out x page for more info"
14:56:37 <SkylerBunny> Indirect links (like to your Tumblr, but not the absolute post in question), or a general statement of sites on which you can be found, where the information is, is okay.'
14:58:02 <Fay> like we did though
14:58:22 <Fay> she could keep all the info, literally just removing the direct link
14:59:03 <SkylerBunny> I've read Term's response. It doesn't say that. It says 'You can't do this', and the mitigation is too general for a person to necessarily understand what's meant.
14:59:22 <SkylerBunny> Spell it out with exact quotes and sentences, ending with 'We will happily let this journal remain if you do this.'
14:59:30 <Fay> hmm
14:59:49 <Ikani> I'm agreeing with Skyler here
14:59:49 <SkylerBunny> Say THIS. : 'Exact quote provided.'
15:00:55 <Fay> lemme write something up.
15:01:02 <pinardilla> "While we support your free expression of your experience as a rape survivor, we cannot open ourselves to liability by permitting an accusation or a direct link to such an accusation to remain on our site.  If you instead simply stated 'Please see my Tumblr for the details' in lieu of a direct link, this would be sufficient to shield us from this liability."
15:01:04 <term> I'm working on it Fay
15:02:59 <Ikani> "shield us from liability while still allowing your experience to be shared."
15:03:05 <Ikani> or something like that
15:03:58 <SkylerBunny> I still think "and then we will happily allow this journal to stand" really wants to be in this response. Absolutely clear that our primary interest is NOT in removing the journal.
15:04:50 <pinardilla> I recall the other party in this filing a ticket on her submission that mentioned legal action - is that something we may want to note to help emphasize the difficult position we're in, or is that best kept secret?
15:05:37 <Ikani> I think that should probably be kept secret in both directions
15:05:54 <SkylerBunny> ...if it was filed as a ticket, right, I was going to say, I think there's an expectation of privacy. But we don't really have to go there.
15:06:17 <pinardilla> yeah, I figured as much :\ thought it was worth considering tho
15:06:25 <Ikani> yeah
15:07:51 <Taw> was afk to make/eat dinner, back now
15:08:29 <pinardilla> wb
15:08:51 <Ikani> on a personal note, I at one point saw some statistics on false rape accusations. The numbers are pretty insanely low. If we didn't have a legal requirement here, I'd probably be arguing to keep the journal entirely.
15:09:00 <Ikani> That said, I also don't want to go to court over a website
15:09:31 <pinardilla> right
15:09:41 <Taw> Eh, regardless, we're an art website, not a sex offender's registry as mentioned. It's not really suitable to have on our site
15:10:04 <term> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/HlMVmTQWWPYNnGFC9VGl/
15:10:04 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #HlMVmTQWWPYNnGFC9VGl at spacepaste
15:10:17 <term> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/HlMVmTQWWPYNnGFC9VGl/
15:10:17 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #HlMVmTQWWPYNnGFC9VGl at spacepaste
15:10:25 <pinardilla> taw: we don't hold journals to artistic standards and there's a community interest here
15:10:26 <term> my draft here.
15:10:46 (-) Armaina joined
15:11:07 <SkylerBunny> If you all can give me a few minutes, I could do some edits, see what you think.
15:11:17 <Taw> True, though I'd much rather our site and journals be used for something other than calling out other users on things. :v
15:11:34 <pinardilla> yeah go for it skyler, there's a couple clarity suggestions I can think of too
15:11:55 <Ikani> hi Arm!
15:11:57 <Fay> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/5LypMWfqrnyMLtnVMMVb/
15:11:57 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #5LypMWfqrnyMLtnVMMVb at spacepaste
15:13:43 <SkylerBunny> Hm. Okay, now I've got two to merge. May take a bit longer but working.
15:13:54 <Ikani> hah
15:14:12 <Ikani> Fay, I'd kill line 5 from yours entirely but otherwise like the tone
15:14:14 <Fay> whoops sorry >.>
15:14:26 <Ikani> its okay
15:14:34 <Armaina> Ikani, hii
15:14:35 <Ikani> Skyler, work your magic :)
15:14:36 <Fay> also sure can do that. whatever draft works best for you guys
15:16:44 <Fay> got a tweet we might want to respond to after this note goes out
15:17:07 <Fay> can't seem to link to it but it's the latest @weasyl one
15:17:17 <SkylerBunny> Still working as fast as I can.
15:17:35 <Ikani> the [redacted] one?
15:18:16 <term> skyler take your time.
15:19:22 <Ikani> I'm also thinking that we make a very public post about our position on callouts, and our position on censorship, after this
15:19:49 <Taw> Might be a good idea
15:19:51 <pinardilla> probably a good idea
15:19:52 <Armaina> yep
15:20:50 <Fay> [redacted] yeah
15:20:54 <Ikani> okay
15:21:00 <pinardilla> https:[redacted] for reference
15:21:00 <Wesley>  Twitter  @[redacted]: @[redacted] @weasyl curious whether any of these policies get run past Actual Lawyers
15:21:05 <term> mmm yeah I can work on something regarding that.
15:21:29 <term> fuck'n hell I really didn't want to have to pushback the spotlight.
15:21:30 <SkylerBunny> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/d0TpaUjROEInw1ZXhebv/
15:21:30 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #d0TpaUjROEInw1ZXhebv at spacepaste
15:21:41 <Fay> "we're happy to report we have on staff lawyers to review our TOS and policies"
15:22:37 <pinardilla> are those URLs okay, or is that still too close to a direct link?
15:22:56 <Fay> director call on that one
15:22:57 <SkylerBunny> I don't know. But I wanted to give this as a good starting point either way.
15:23:13 <SkylerBunny> The main thrust is that I want to spell out EXACTLY what she can do, and then we say 'Great, journal stays'.
15:23:41 <term> pinar: this issue is the direct link to the FAQ.
15:23:44 <SkylerBunny> If the answer is no, I can reword it so that it says 'My Twitter or my Tumblr'; you can check my profile page (_link_) for either.
15:23:52 <term> Everything outside of that is fine.
15:24:02 <SkylerBunny> Term: Would you say then that what I put in that response above is acceptable?
15:24:12 <term> I'd say so.
15:24:13 <Fay> I like the message
15:24:18 <SkylerBunny> Okay. Let me actually make one more tweak to it.
15:24:42 <term> post it here and I'll send it on its way.
15:24:49 <pinardilla> I'd like to put in my own input too if you don't mind
15:25:04 <Fay> directors are okay with it?
15:26:45 <Taw> I'm fine with it.
15:26:50 <Ikani> sorry was getting more background on them from [redacted], who's known them for a while
15:26:53 <Ikani> let me read over it quick
15:27:01 <SkylerBunny> I'm writing another draft Ikani, one sec.
15:27:17 <Ikani> oh okay
15:27:19 <Ikani> waiting <3
15:27:47 <Ikani> also [redacted] says she remembers there being a ticket a few months back with a reported journal on this subject
15:28:15 <Fay> There was a submission
15:28:28 <Ikani> aah okay
15:28:41 <SkylerBunny> https://paste.weasyldev.com/show/xQvR3AYBMfoN2A5xmUhy/
15:28:41 <Wesley>  Page title  Paste #xQvR3AYBMfoN2A5xmUhy at spacepaste
15:29:11 <Fay> she has a submission about her experience. Which was reported by [redacted]. we let it stay as itremoved reference to [redacted]
15:29:22 <Fay> or rahter it had no reference
15:29:41 <Fay> the ticket stayed up since [redacted] mentioned he would be looking into legal stuff