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#zersiax log so far

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  1. 3:42:15 PM - Kanaalmodus +ns ingesteld door weber.freenode.net.
  2.  
  3. 4:06:06 PM - batgirl_ [~batgirl@66-162-161-250.static.twtelecom.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  4. zersiax
  5. heya
  6. 4:12:42 PM - yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  7.  
  8. 4:12:44 PM - yorick heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
  9.  
  10. 4:29:01 PM - RedNifre [~RedNifre@37-247-88-134.natip.skydsl.de] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  11. RedNifre
  12. Hi.
  13. zersiax
  14. heya :)
  15. RedNifre
  16. You're the blind programmer, right? :)
  17. zersiax
  18. so it seems :)
  19.  
  20. sounds likea superhero alias :)
  21.  
  22. threw this channel up so peeps can ask the questions they're throwing onto HN right now ...I got the 'you're submitting too fast'  message so I can't answer on there
  23. RedNifre
  24. haha, I wonder if you can fix computer problems Daredevil style by hitting the machine with a crow bar and perceive its internals based on the echos ;)
  25.  
  26. I just read your blog and it was quite interesting. But it sounded very low level to me.
  27.  
  28. I mean, having the program read to you seems equivalent to the old one line screens.
  29. zersiax
  30. I had to keep it somewhat dumbed down to make sure it was understandable to most peeps
  31. RedNifre
  32. You mentioned IDEs like IntelliJ which makes me wonder if it was possible to port all the nice commodity features to audio.
  33. zersiax
  34. what a screenreader basically does is take the highlighted content on screen and read it out loud. this by itself is very limited, but you have several tools to jump through the screen content by word, line, paragraph, object in the rendered DOM tree etc
  35. RedNifre
  36. What I mean is, if I write Haskell in vim, I don't only have the program in a sequential form, it's actually multiple lines and instead of brackets I have indentation and different keywords or comments actually have a different color.
  37.  
  38. So, what I imaged is that maybe you would have a screen reader that reads code in a male voice and comments in a female voice.
  39. zersiax
  40. being only able to focus on one line at a time is true, then again the same is true for reading. moving to a new line would go faster visually since you just need to look somewhere else on the screen where I would press an arrow key or a hotkey of some kind
  41. RedNifre
  42. Or you mentioned only turnind the brackets on when you want to debug wrong nesting.
  43.  
  44. I wonder if it was possible to increase the pitch of inner blocks.
  45. zersiax
  46. yes, doing some scripting to that extent can be done for Windows screenreaders and for Unix an add-on for Emacs called Emacspeak exists that actually does that very thing
  47. 22 minuten 39 seconden
  48. RedNifre
  49. Well, no. With reading, you see the other lines in your peripheral vision. Imagine if you had three readers at the same time. The current line would be read normally while the adjacent lines could be read at a lower volume ;)
  50. zersiax
  51. the problem with Emacspeak is that it's frankly a bit of a b*tch to get working properly and I  barely speak any Lisp
  52. RedNifre
  53. and you could use your scroll wheel to scroll through the lines by adjusting the volume.
  54. zersiax
  55. haha that might work, it's an interesting idea. I think it might get difficult to focus on more than one line in that way though, but I've never tried it. its like listening to two conversations at once, where one takes precedence I imagine
  56. RedNifre
  57. A while ago I saw a presentation where somebody did the opposite of what you are doing: He programmed using his voice instead of typing.
  58. zersiax
  59. for that particular issue what I do right now is zoom in on one function (the one the debugger tells me the error is in for example) and check common errors ...quote or bracket mismatches, missing keywords etc ...and if thats not the problem I go through it bit by bit to see what's causing code to break
  60. RedNifre
  61. What surprised me that he didn't limit himself to actual language. For example, he input brackets and colons using funny sounds which he called owl sounds or clicks.
  62. zersiax
  63. I saw that presentation too. He did lisp right? with all sorts of strange little words to input programming-related signs
  64.  
  65. yep. I'm surprised he got his dictation program to catch those consistently
  66. RedNifre
  67. I don't remember the exact details, but the language might be irrelevant. I mean, you mentioned some people replacing the long "opening bracket" with something shorter... I wonder if using sound effects for special characters might work.
  68. zersiax
  69. I know a fellow blind programmer who used piano note sounds to determine what indentation level he was at. thats sort of the same thing
  70. RedNifre
  71. In your blog you quoted your speech synthesizer by actually spelling out "bracket" as a word instead of typing the single character. I guess typing the single character of a bracket is equivalent to outputting a sound effect. Hm...
  72.  
  73. Yeah, that's what I was just thinking.
  74.  
  75. Well, not exactly... the piano note is just a single event... if I were blind I might prefer having it read in a different pitch.
  76. zersiax
  77. which is what Emacspeak does. you good with emacs by any chance and willing to give me a hand to get it working? :P
  78.  
  79. would be a good addition to my arch dev box :)
  80. RedNifre
  81. I'm sorry, I only use vim.
  82.  
  83. Another thing, do you use a smartphone? Or do you play MUDs?
  84. zersiax
  85. Yes and yes :)
  86.  
  87. Own an iPhone 5C which is my primary phone, have somewhat older Android device rooted to test Android's accessibility improvements
  88.  
  89. and I have been playing muds for about 10 years :)
  90. 4:45:45 PM - batgirl_ heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
  91. RedNifre
  92. I had this crazy idea of playing a Mud using only a speech synthesizer and a text to speech program. That way, you could for example play while lying in bed in total darkness.
  93.  
  94. But your blog post made me think.
  95.  
  96. I wonder if I could program on my phone, only using the headset, using text to speech, while going for a walk in the forrest.
  97.  
  98. I mean, I tried programming directly on the phone, but the screen is inconveniently small. But for sound, a phone is as good as a desktop machine.
  99. zersiax
  100. i wonder how accurate dictation would be for that. I find on my pc, Dragon Naturally Speaking does a very good job in transcribing what I am saying but that is in a room with almost no background noise
  101.  
  102. I can program lying on my back though ...I do that all the time when I'm doing light stuff. Get a little out of focus after a while though
  103.  
  104. and my screen tends to be fully turned off
  105. RedNifre
  106. The more I think about it, the more I like the thought of programming with audio output. I just pictured you walking in a Starbucks only with a tiny bluetooth keyboard, headphones on, and just start typing. :)
  107. zersiax
  108. grin. it does have its perks :)
  109.  
  110. still a little overwhelmed about how viral this thing went :)
  111.  
  112. just wrote a bit about how I do things for the folks at FCC :)
  113. RedNifre
  114. I guess it's interesting for several completely different reasons. People who create websites or programs are interested in hearing how you experience their stuff, hackers are fascinated by a different way to program etc.
  115.  
  116. You also mentioned a braille line. I think I already heard about such devices about 20 years ago and would have thought that they progressed. Why are there no screen sized devices?
  117. zersiax
  118. because there aren't. Nobody made them and I think money might be an issue ...braille lines cost upwards from 4000 bucks
  119.  
  120. ugh ...this is kind of annoying. People ask genuinely good questions on HN and I cannot answer them due to this HN throttle
  121. 29 minuten 56 seconden
  122. RedNifre
  123. Yeah, it seems like nobody noticed that you mentioned this irc channel.
  124.  
  125. Or people don't read comments before posting their own.
  126. zersiax
  127. well I had to edit it into an already existing comment since HN cut me off after 4 replies or so :)
  128.  
  129. so it may have gone a little unnoticed
  130. RedNifre
  131. Ah, there are quite a few comments now... I'll go and read them first, brb.
  132.  
  133. How do things like 😄 and 🏩  sound to you? What happens iff teh spellng gets wery haard to reed?
  134. zersiax
  135. there's a modified dictionary file in the wild for NVDA screenreaders that reads out emoji :) as for spelling getting a little crazy, I've been on muds andIRC for 10 years. I got used to it ;)
  136.  
  137. smiling face with open mouth and smiling eyes ... love hotel
  138.  
  139. thats the translations of your emoji ;)
  140. RedNifre
  141. Are there any blind friendly games that aren't 100% text?
  142. zersiax
  143. www.audiogames.net
  144.  
  145. there's games that are 100% audio :P also, some mainstream games are playable ...most fighting games for example. I'll pwn you at a game of Tekken :P
  146. RedNifre
  147. Ah, great! I'll check those out.
  148.  
  149. Can you recommend one of those audiogames?
  150. zersiax
  151. hmmm. depends on what you're into. there's shooters, RPG, Strategy, Arcade ...just have a glimpse around :)
  152.  
  153. swamp is a multiplayer first-person shooter ...shades of doom is sort of ...well ...doom-like, things like Troopanum and Alien Outback are kinda like Space Invaders, etc
  154. RedNifre
  155. Thank you, I'll try those first.
  156. zersiax
  157. then there's soundRTS which is your basic Real-time strategy game, etc etc
  158. 5:16:36 PM - s7z7g7 [~s7z7g7@gateway/tor-sasl/s7z7g7] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  159. zersiax
  160. heya :)
  161. s7z7g7
  162. Hi, I have a quick question, if you don't mind, zersiax. :)
  163. RedNifre
  164. Have you heard of Advance Wars? It is a great strategy game, but it was only released on the Nintendo Game Boy. However, somebody made a pure html version of it. Unfortunately, the board is one big image, but every unit is a separate image. Can you see what is going on in this game? http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=219363&grid=ON
  165. zersiax
  166. go ahead s7 :)
  167. s7z7g7
  168. Cool. I listened to that audio clip of your screen reader. What is the max WPM you have for that?
  169. zersiax
  170. no, I cannot read whats going on in that game, since none of the individual tiles are labeled. All I get back is 'link link link link link link link ......'
  171.  
  172. the max wpm ...i reckon about 150-175 somewhere
  173.  
  174. what you heard , the audio clip, was about 75% maximum speed
  175. RedNifre
  176. Regarding the screen reader, I once tried listening to my favorite podcast at 3x the speed to save time. It worked, but it was so tiresome that I dialed it back to 1.5x. Can you listen to your screen reader at that speed for several hours? Do you get exhausted at all, or are you so used to it that you no longer notice?
  177. s7z7g7
  178. Oh, interesting. But that sounded faster than typical auctioneers at 250WPM. Could I be mistaken?
  179. zersiax
  180. I'dhave to hear it, do you have a link s7?
  181. s7z7g7
  182. Sure
  183.  
  184. Be careful, soundcloud plays a song right after this is over: https://soundcloud.com/freecodecamp/zersiaxs-screen-reader
  185. zersiax
  186. and I don't get exhausted by listening to speech at the speed you guys heard, I tend to go a little bit faster if I am in a hurry and that does get tiring after a while.but I can read novels at this speed just fine
  187.  
  188. speeding up a human voice like that makes it choppy, which forces your brain to fill in the missing pieces though. kinda like how you don't notice a spelling mistake because you read over it ...that is tiring, digitally this doesn't happen as much though
  189. s7z7g7
  190. Damn, reading at that speed would be a huge benefit. I need to find a good program so I can listen to the 100 sci-fi audiobooks I have.
  191. zersiax
  192. haha :) no, I know what my screenreader sounds like :) I meant the guy speaking at 250wpm so I can compare
  193. s7z7g7
  194. Ah, very intersting.
  195.  
  196. Sorry, zersiax, I'll get one real quick.
  197. zersiax
  198. take your time :)
  199. RedNifre
  200. s7z7g7 you can actually read at that speed. let me search the link...
  201.  
  202. Ah, here it is: http://www.spritzinc.com/
  203.  
  204. That's actually what my next question would be about :)
  205. 5:27:10 PM - sstangl [~sstangl@fsf/member/sstangl] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  206. s7z7g7
  207. I read at 500-600wpm with nearly 100% comprehension.
  208. 3 uur 25 minuten
  209. sstangl
  210. out of curiosity, do you have a preferred screen reader for GNU/Linux?
  211. s7z7g7
  212. zersiax, I'm having a hard time finding a link for 250wpm specifically. I am, however, finding links to people who speek over 600wpm.
  213. RedNifre
  214. Visual text is usually arranged in lines in a two dimensional way, while a screen reader is obviously sequential. The link I just posted displays words visually all in the same spot one after another, but longer or more complicated words appear for a longer time. Is it possible to have the braille line work in this way as well? As in, you put eight fingers on eight characters and the braille line just puts one word under them at a time
  215.  
  216. instead of a full line in quick succession?
  217. s7z7g7
  218. Here's one, a world record holder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-o9vTk8Poo
  219. zersiax
  220. hmm. I can't get the sprints thing to actually output sound :) as for the woman ...I cannot follow this speed, but I can pick out bits and pieces from it
  221.  
  222. red, what would that do exactly? you mean you would no longer need to move your hands but let the words just scroll by as it were?
  223. RedNifre
  224. zersiax no, the spritz thing doesn't output sound, instead it displays written text in the same way your screen reader outputs it: all in the same place, but sequentially. Even if you could get it to work it would just sound the same to you. I posted it to s7z7g7 because your screen reader might be faster than reading conventionally arranged text visually.
  225. zersiax
  226. ahh. I just got back that I am actually mistaken about theWPM, the max is about 700 WPM. so, that would mean that the clip you heard is about 525 WPM
  227. RedNifre
  228. zersiax not scroll, but just switch from one to the next.
  229. s7z7g7
  230. zersiax, I thought that was faster! :) Very impressive.
  231. zersiax
  232. that might work red, but would lose the advantage a braille display currently holds vs just audio, namely that youcan zoom in on a particular part of the line and keep your hand there while scrolling. that is handy for finding inconsistencies in the end of lines of code for example (no ;, no } ) if your lines have roughly the same length
  233. RedNifre
  234. I was asking because I find I can read faster using spritz, because I don't have to move my eyes over the page (This is the whole point of spritz anyway) so I was wondering if that made sense for the braille line as well. So instead of moving your hands over the whole line you have the braille line push the text right into your hands one word at a time like the screen reader does.
  235.  
  236. ah, so the braille line is useful for programming while the screen reader is better for natural language?
  237. zersiax
  238. braille display is generally useful for very precision-oriented tasks. programming, mathematics, even indentation for reports etc. because that is a bit of a nuisance to check with a screenreader (it involves hitting left and right arrow often to check small things like are there enough spaces? ) while you can see that at a 'glance'  on a braille display
  239.  
  240. huh ...is there a tactile term for glance? ...I end to just og with mainstream lingo, most blind people do really. 'hear you later' just sounds creepy
  241.  
  242. Sorry for the typoes btw ...I think I have too many programs open or so , typing isa bit laggy. Pc can't keep up with my 500CPM so scrambles words now and again...a little annoying but
  243. RedNifre
  244. which keyboard layout do you use?
  245. zersiax
  246. qwerty :)
  247.  
  248. i've briefly looked at dvorak but never really got around to really learning it
  249. RedNifre
  250. And I'm not sure if I should actually recommend it. I learned it in school and it is definitely more comfortable, but not necessarily faster or more accurate.
  251.  
  252. Or maybe a bit accurate because you don't have to move your fingers at much, but oh well. Might not be worth it.
  253.  
  254. When reading visually, I usually read each word as a whole. I only have to look at the individual letters if I don't know the word. How does this work for braille? Do you read whole words at once? How many fingers do you use?
  255. zersiax
  256. it varies. you tend to use eight fingers, but you use those for the whole line. A line isn't very long though ...typical braille displays take 40-45 characters, office ones take 80. but eight fingers on a 40-cell line ...you have the line read in under a second if you're quick
  257.  
  258. my type of braille display has a gimmick where it scrolls to the next line instantly when it detects your fingers reaching the end of the line , where you usually push a key for that
  259. 5:49:15 PM - cccp [~u@loon.sponc.de] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  260. cccp
  261. hey zersiax, just read your article - regarding inaccessible text in pictures, have you tried project naptha yet? it's an extension for chrome that does ocr on pictures with often decent success. not sure how accessible the extension itself is, though. https://projectnaptha.com/
  262. 5:50:45 PM - cccp is nu bekend als mxn.
  263.  
  264. 5:51:52 PM - tsp [tsp@unaffiliated/tsp] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  265. tsp
  266. zersiax: grats, you're still on the hn frontpage
  267. zersiax
  268. thanks cccp :) I didn't know of this extension. I can do OCR on most screens but the Dash tutorials did something that made the actual img tag invisible , so I couldn't focus on it with my screenreader. An extension directly into a browser like this might work better though
  269.  
  270. tsp I'm still kind of shocked by that tbh :) I just wrote that blog post because I was asked to by a community that has done a lot for me and I am learning a lot from ...I go to sleep, walk away from my pc for a few hours and the thing goes viral :)
  271.  
  272. if anyone is interested in learning JS and having some fun along the way I highly recommend FCC btw, its a fun community and its free ...so nothing to lose but time :)
  273. mxn
  274. it is usually used by highlighting text in the image with the mouse, i guess that might be difficult for you? maybe there is a another way as well, though, haven't checked
  275. zersiax
  276. now looking into alternatives for my blog
  277. mxn
  278. hm, looing at the project naptha website i just came up with a question for you: that site is quite long and I'd navigate it using the headings of subsections, which in this case are not html h1 elements, but just some special div. does your screenreader recognize that somehow, can you use auch headings to navigate a long text?
  279. zersiax
  280. let me have a look at that page, just a sec
  281. tsp
  282. e
  283.  
  284. =
  285. zersiax
  286. i see a number of headings on that page, yes
  287.  
  288. they may have the role heading attribute
  289.  
  290. lemme check the hTML source
  291. mxn
  292. can't see anything like that, but the font size is 30pt, so that will probably give it away.
  293. zersiax
  294. i actually see styled headings ...are you on this page? https://projectnaptha.com/
  295. mxn
  296. oh. I didn't notice, there are two kinds of headings. The non-h1 heading is actually more pronounced than the h1 ones. The non-h1 ones are "Example: Comics", "Example:Scans" etc
  297. 6:04:16 PM - RedNifre heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Verlassend).
  298. s7z7g7
  299. Thanks for answering my question, zersiax. :)
  300. zersiax
  301. not a problem:)
  302. 6:27:08 PM - s7z7g7 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part: "Leaving").
  303.  
  304.  
  305. 9:14:33 PM - jt2190_ [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  306. jt2190_
  307. Hello
  308. 9:27:24 PM - sstangl_ is nu bekend als sstangl.
  309.  
  310. 9:31:24 PM - jt2190_ heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit).
  311.  
  312. 9:53:57 PM - fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@162.243.206.108] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  313. fiatjaf
  314. am I too late for the Q&A? I wish there was a log of this channel (so I could not ask repeated questions).
  315.  
  316. zersiax: thank you for that post. It was very good news for me from a lot of perspectives. I just wanted to know if you can understand normal english text with that screen reader in that incredible speed. for example, can you read a book like that? the first times you used a screen reader you did in a slow speed, or was it always that way? thank you for answering.
  317. 10:08:25 PM - phaethon [~Q@c-67-177-252-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  318. phaethon
  319. zersiax: Thanks bor bitching about the inaccessibility of developer apps, but you shoulda really mentioned the damn frameworks that are inaccessible by default.
  320. 11:28:35 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  321. jt2190
  322. Hi Florian
  323.  
  324. Have you ever built your own web interface on a REST API?
  325. zersiax
  326. you guys around?
  327. tsp
  328. yep
  329. 12:16:38 AM - jt2190 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Remote host closed the connection).
  330.  
  331. 12:30:56 AM - sstangl heeft de ruimte verlaten (Part).
  332. zersiax
  333. there we go ...HN lets me post again and I answered every comment I could
  334. zersiax
  335. and now I shall sleep. I'll lurk to intercept questions though ;) waves
  336. fiatjaf
  337. thank you, zersiax (please use your ability to read so fast and be an erudite on all the matters).
  338. zersiax
  339. erudite? :) please elaborate  fiatjaf
  340. fiatjaf
  341. (I don't know the words, a scholar, a polymath, a philosopher. more than a cientist, a sage)
  342. zersiax
  343. ahh, I understand you now :) thanks a lot
  344.  
  345. aww ...code combat currently is just a bit too inaccessible to play. it really seems like a fun game ...I hope they fix it :(
  346. 5:48:26 AM - rogeliodh [rogeliodh@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe73:99ea] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  347.  
  348.  
  349. 3:25:28 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  350. zersiax
  351. jt2190
  352.  
  353. I was looking for you ;)
  354. rogeliodh
  355. zersiax: do you have a log of this channel from yesterday? I can't find any one
  356. 4:33:18 PM - jt2190 heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Remote host closed the connection).
  357. zersiax
  358. yes, I have been lurking from the first message
  359.  
  360. I can copy-paste it into an email if you like
  361. 4:48:45 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  362.  
  363.  
  364. 5:43:45 PM - jt2190 [~jt2190@107-0-80-86-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
  365. zersiax
  366. if I missed any questions, I'm sorry I was traveling :) kindly ask again
  367. rogeliodh
  368. can you paste the log to pastebin? (for anyone interested)
  369. 2 uur 30 minuten
  370. 6:04:18 PM - otiose heeft de ruimte verlaten (Quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
  371.  
  372. 6:05:49 PM - De verbinding met uw account is verbroken.
  373.  
  374. 8:28:29 PM - Uw account is weer verbonden.
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