Distributional v. binary constructs; law v. science; norms

JaysonSunshine Sep 17th, 2019 76 Never
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  1. Hedrin 14:55:20
  2. It's Taco Tuesday
  3. innit 14:55:40
  4. Not essentially, no.
  5. It's a cultural construct, like age of consent laws.
  6. Zing!
  7. Joel 14:58:27
  8. innit have you looked at maryland's age of consent law? it's very straightforward - it just says that if any partner is under 16, they must be within four years of the age of the other partner.. and therefore at 16 one is legal for any adult age.. i think that's a very reasonable approach, grounded in reality, but protecting people from exploitation
  9. i would almost want to watch it but i grew weary of cohen's antics
  10. i used to think he was funny but it's always the same crap
  11. innit 14:58:48
  12. That's better than most age of consent laws.
  13. I do not support age of consent laws, however.
  14. Including that one.
  15. The highest source of truth in our society is science, Joel, not the law.
  16. The law is factually subordinate to science and its legal constructs need to reflect scientific truth, not vice versa.
  17. What do truth constructs look like in science? They're distributional entities.
  18. Hedrin 15:00:03
  19. stay classy NJ -
  20. innit 15:00:12
  21. For example, a normal distribution of height or intelligence.
  22. That is, they're continuously varying constructs without binary thresholds.
  23. Binary thresholds are almost never found in nature.
  24. Nature is a continuously varying system, at the level of human perception -- i.e. not quantum mechanics where there are discrete events.
  25. What we care about with age of consent is the cognitive phenomenon of consent, with a statistical/ethical/philosophical/scientific/legal construct that is a map from an underlying extremely complex mind that we can't directly work with easily.
  26. So, that's fine.
  27. What will a scientific model of consent look like? It will be, like all scientific constructs, continuously varying.
  28. So, at age 25, there will be some percentage of humans who can give consent to sexual activities in at least some cases, maybe 98%.
  29. At age 21 it might be 94%.
  30. At age 18 it might be 89%
  31. At age 16 it might be 64%.
  32. At age 14 it might be 34%.
  33. That's how real truth works in science. Now, the law is not going to be a perfect representation of scientific truth at all levels of the law.
  34. Law enforcement officers will work with simpler constructs, that might include tentative age of consent constructs to facilitate rapid decision making.
  35. I'm open to supporting those.
  36. However, with full due process in a court of law, we need to have our legal systems approach scientific truth very closely, as otherwise we cannot find innocent people guilty in our common law system
  37. And that will require a case-by-case analysis of the the specific minds in question and the circumstances involved to reflect that above, continuously varying true model of consent.
  38. As opposed to merely only showing one of the participants was belong a given age.
  39. That is why I do not support age of consent constructs, Joel.
  40. Joel 15:05:12
  41. yeah but how do you say that it's ever ok for an 18 year old to bang a 12 year old
  42. innit 15:05:45
  43. Because sometimes some 12-year olds can provide consent and coercion need not always ben involved if one of the participants is 18.
  44. There are some 12-year olds that can be the dominant party with some 18-year olds.
  45. CaveGuy 15:06:02
  47. innit 15:06:05
  48. That is rare, but that's okay.
  49. The point of courts is to work with rare events, too.
  50. CaveGuy 15:06:15
  51. some Bible thumpers are gona be upset
  52. innit 15:06:42
  53. Joel: We cannot throw people in jail unless we're sure they're guilty.
  54. Hedrin 15:06:48
  55. LOL - the idiot tweeted this today "The New York Times is at its lowest point in its long and storied history."
  56. innit 15:06:54
  57. I'm advocating for a *fuller* system of due process and analysis of the facts, not a lesser.
  58. If there is a violation of consent, that will emerge.
  59. Hedrin 15:07:06
  60. sordid - dumbass.
  61. Joel 15:07:36
  62. NYT is overrated to be honest
  63. innit 15:08:34
  65. Hedrin 15:09:06
  66. It's amazing that the POTUS is such a fucking dumbass he doesn't know the word "sordid"
  67. innit 15:09:06
  68. Joel: Do you have any fundamental issues with my assertions?
  69. Hedrin 15:10:10
  70. 'long and storied' isn't a thing.
  71. innit 15:10:10
  72. There have been 12-year olds that have killed more people than you.
  73. There have been 12-year olds with my higher IQs.
  74. Hedrin 15:10:29
  75. higher then yours? Well, yeah.
  76. Barabbas` 15:10:29
  77. The fact is the brain/mind isn't fully developed until approx age 25. So, no one whose brain/mind is half developed is capable of giving INFORMED consent.
  78. innit 15:10:30
  79. There have been 12-year olds who are far more moral.
  80. Joel 15:10:30
  81. they do some real gems but they don't have the coverage that wapo does
  82. i subscribed to both briefly, NYT even tried to get me charged for another month when i wanted to cancel, but i blocked it in paypal when they didn't get back to me right away about canceling
  83. innit 15:10:42
  84. My IQ is 154-161, Hedrin.
  85. Joel 15:10:49
  86. innit i wouldn't prosecute statutory rape cases where the "victim" was the one pushing it.. but i wouldn't make it legal either.. i don't see how the law can recognize that as a good thing, but prosecutorial discretion can handle outlying cases
  87. innit 15:10:54
  88. But some 12-year olds have had IQs above 180.
  89. Barabbas` 15:11:06
  90. IQ doesn't measure maturity
  91. innit 15:11:10
  92. Now, consent isn't the same thing as IQ, but it's related.
  93. Hedrin 15:11:15
  94. so - go join Mensa
  95. innit 15:11:15
  96. They're correlated.
  97. * 15:11:18
  98. Ignoring Hedrin
  99. innit 15:11:25
  100. Hedrin: I put you on ignore for 24 hours.
  101. Barabbas`: I am leveraging one way of measuring the mind to make a sub-point.
  102. We're so quick to recognize that the minds of some young people are superior to ours in some regards, but some parts of our mind we hold as 'sacred'.
  103. Barabbas` 15:12:20
  104. innit You fulcrum is missplaced, you leverage isn't working.
  105. innit 15:12:33
  106. You have 4-year old Capablanca playing chess at the level of a master.
  107. You have 6-year old Mozart writing symphonies.
  108. But it's beyond possibility there has ever been a 12-year old who was mature enough to give consent to sexual activity.
  109. That's highly unlikely.
  110. Barabbas` 15:13:32
  111. What does the ability to play chess have to do with making informed consent decrees. That same 4 year old will eat ice cream till he throws up, cuz he doesn't know any better.
  112. Joel 15:13:35
  113. innit it's not the norm
  114. innit 15:13:53
  115. Joel: I have, at no point, leveraged a concept of 'norm'.
  116. Barabbas` 15:13:56
  117. mature enough according to who?
  118. innit 15:14:18
  119. Barabbas`: No, 4-year olds writing symphonies do not behave like typical 4-year olds in all other regards.
  120. Barabbas` 15:14:21
  121. What is your standard  to determine the level of maturity?
  122. karstensrage 15:14:25
  123. why are you not supporting age of consent constructs
  124. are you a pedo
  125. innit 15:14:33
  126. My standard would be the standard provided by scientific methodology, of course.
  127. * 15:14:37
  128. Ignoring karstensrage
  129. innit 15:14:47
  130. karstensrage: I put you on ignore for 24 hours for your fallacy.
  131. Barabbas` 15:14:48
  132. in otherwords nada.
  133. innit 15:15:06
  134. What does the ability to play chess have to do with informed consent?
  135. Well, informed consent is obviously a complex mental construct, but general cognitive ability is part of it.
  136. Along with other aspects of mind, like memories of prior experiences across a range of social events.
  137. Barabbas`: That last post of yours is a strawman fallacy.
  138. Barabbas` 15:16:25
  139. according to science the brain isn't fully developed, regardless of IQ, until age 25. So, according to science a 12 year old brain is NOT capable of giving INFORMED consent. So, if you are going to use science as your standard, you have lost your argument.
  140. innit 15:16:26
  141. Do better.
  142. @ "in otherwords..."
  143. Barabbas`: There are a number of problems with your most recent post.
  144. Yes, the brain is not fully anatomically developed with myelination until age 25 -- agreed.
  145. CaveGuy 15:17:23
  146. oh
  147. innit 15:17:25
  148. If you require full anatomical maturation, then the current age of consent constructs are also unethical.
  149. Barabbas` 15:17:32
  150. No there really isn't. But there are a host of problems with all the non sequiturs you are employing in a pathetic attempt to justify pedophilia.
  151. innit 15:17:33
  152. As they're typically at age of 18 in most Western nations.
  153. Barabbas`: I put you on ignore for 24 hours for your ad hominem fallacy.
  154. * 15:17:47
  155. Ignoring Barabbas`
  156. innit 15:17:56
  157. It's okay, very few people have the maturity to discuss this topic.
  158. Maybe 2-5% of our species.
  159. I'll continue my response to his final post.
  160. It's a leap -- though could be true -- to connect full anatomical maturation with ability to provide consent.
  161. I would defer to scientific truth on this, of course, as I have no views on this topic independent of science.
  162. That is, if my views are in contradiction to science, then I will abandon my views.
  163. Presumably, anatomical maturation is connected to the ability to give informed consent, but it's unclear exactly how much.
  164. Our current society allows that program to be incomplete before providing the ability to give consent at the age of 18 -- maybe that's wrong. Maybe it should be pushed to age 25.
  165. CaveGuy 15:20:25
  166. Just Dew it!!
  167. innit 15:20:45
  168. That would seem somewhat problematic, though, in regards to sexual informed consent, given physical maturation occurs between 12-16/18/20.
  169. Depending on the level of physical of maturation we're referencing.
  170. In all cases, that is actually a non sequitur to my point.
  171. That will only be visible to highly intelligent philosopher types with an IQ above 135, probably.
  172. Recall my thesis: The ability to give consent is a continuously varying distribution, as opposed to the binary legal construct of an age test.
  173. I don't know the precise structure of that distribution. All Barabbas` point is, in regards to anatomical maturation at 25, is when that distribution would be located.
  174. That is, it's 100% compatible with my thesis
  175. DALnet 15:22:55
  176. This channel is protected, you may need to wait 40 seconds before being able to talk!
  177. CaveGuy 15:23:00
  178. yeah
  179. hi innit
  180. hi Raven`X
  181. innit 15:23:41
  182. Say that physical maturation 'occurs at 25'. That will not be a binary threshold. No, brains for our species do not mature at age 25. False.
  183. CaveGuy 15:23:50
  184. innit??
  185. Cannot join channel (+b)
  186. innit 15:25:07
  187. Uploaded file:
  188. Cannot send to channel
  189. innit 15:25:12
  190. There is, once again, a *distribution* of ages over which brains of our species mature, with the average about 25 -- again, a distribution, not a binary threshold. The universe we inhabit at our scale of perception is continuously varying. Binary thresholds found in the law are simplified models to help facilitate quick, often accurate judgments (if it's a good construct).
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