Wolvenreign - Today at 8:06 PM
There's something I've always wanted to ask Josue.
How does he feel about snipers in TF2? Personally I think they're a load of hot fucking garbage that even Valve tacitly admits were a bad idea.
http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477
Despite playing TF2 for more than 2,500 hours, I've decided that I can't play it anymore because snipers make me sick to my fucking stomach.
yummines - Today at 8:10 PM
Personally the only issue i have with them is aimbotters and newbs who gravitate to that class
They're countered pretty hard by spies, and the laser pointer makes it somewhat easy to spot them if you have good map awareness
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:11 PM
The thing that really screws me up about them is that you either have to play your whole fucking game around them and trying to overextend way past the enemy team or else you'll get killed out of nowhere for just trying to deal with the rest of the game, the enemy frontline, the point, enemies behind you, etc.
5007 - Today at 8:11 PM
lots of sniper players have tunnel-vision
yummines - Today at 8:12 PM
Same can be said about spy and medic
And engie
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:12 PM
No it can't. With those classes you can see them and they don't kill you instantly. Plus they're usually within some kind of range of your weapon.
Hisnitch - Today at 8:13 PM
I'm actually gonna agree with Yummine on this one.
yummines - Today at 8:13 PM
Never turned a corner to a lvl 3 sentry?
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:13 PM
Sniping has the cancerous trio of instant kill, hitscan, and essentially infinite range.
yummines - Today at 8:13 PM
Or an uber?
Hisnitch - Today at 8:13 PM
If your pocketing someone, it's real easy to forget that other people need help.
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:13 PM
I've ran into those, but there is always the option of retreat. Plus that's why I turn corners slower (ironically making me even more vulnerable to snipers).
Bat - Today at 8:14 PM
Snipers tend to be limited by map placement
The ones that aren't going yolo bow
5007 - Today at 8:14 PM
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/262721955366482069/F76BB88A4876347CB0205DB68674588457A4B0BB/

Wolvenreign - Today at 8:14 PM
@5007 That scenario is extremely unlikely. Especially since Snipers love hanging out near engie nests (and behind their whole damn team).
5007 - Today at 8:15 PM
kept happening in that round
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:15 PM
And using Spy to counter them? Fucking forget it, they have hard spy counters for some godforsaken reason.
Because the character made to kill you instantly from a range you could never possibly do anything about really needed a melee instant kill combo.
Jesus fucking christ.
Even if it did work, it really wouldn't touch on the core of the problem.
yummines - Today at 8:16 PM
Ambassador was made specifically to counter the razorback
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:16 PM
Not the razorback, Jarate.
Bat - Today at 8:16 PM
Jarate requires close range awareness
It's more useful for Countering Pyros
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:16 PM
@Bat Which is incidentally the only thing needed to counter a spy.
yummines - Today at 8:16 PM
Yeah but is a sniper going to see a cloaked spy?
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:17 PM
@yummies The Spy has to uncloak to attack.
yummines - Today at 8:17 PM
yeah but a scoped in sniper isn't going to see the spy uncloak behind him
Hisnitch - Today at 8:18 PM
Spy has an audio cue, right?
When uncloaking?
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:18 PM
Anyway, the real core of the problem is that playing any role that isn't laser focused on countering the sniper is doomed to be instant killed from across the map by a sniper while you are unable to do anything about it.
@Hisnitch That too.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 8:18 PM
bad excuse
If you stand still -> you get sniped
You need to be zoomed in to be able to instakill anyone
and even then, only with the basic sniper rifles
Wolvenreign - Today at 8:19 PM
@╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ You can get sniped while moving too.

╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:23 PM
Not valve, a random dude on the TF2 team
Again, ask the question
Klavinmour - Today at 9:23 PM
They don't engage with the enemy
They are TWO FUCKING KILLOMETERS AWAY FROM THEM
Hisnitch - Today at 9:23 PM
Sometimes even 3.
Klavinmour - Today at 9:23 PM
Once they take that one shot, ONE SHOT they get the hell out of dodge
If you're Canadian they sit 4km away
Hisnitch - Today at 9:24 PM
Also, what is that in freedom units?
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:24 PM
jokes aside
shooting someone over 1 km away is a feat
snipers stay far, but not THAT far
@Wolvenreign are you going to ask the question again or not?
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:26 PM
That doesn't reduce my point in the slightest, whether it was some guy on the TF2 team or Valve, the person in charge of the design of TF2 saw an inherent problem with the design of the class, as was shown in their extensive playtesting, and put effort towards solving it. The fact that they had to try to solve it using some method or another shows that they understand it to be broken.
Klavinmour - Today at 9:26 PM
I think his statement is supposed to be the question?
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:26 PM
@╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ That's another way that I know that you're not paying attention. I asked it again already.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:26 PM
Stop using "They"
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:26 PM
Scroll up even a little and you'll see it.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:26 PM
it was a random writer
Klavinmour - Today at 9:26 PM
It wasn't someone in charge of the TF2 team
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:26 PM
Can't you resend it?
Don't you care enough?
Klavinmour - Today at 9:26 PM
And back then the TF2 team barely even play tested their own game
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:27 PM
@╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ And you once again prove you didn't read the post. Robin Walker is a random writer?
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:27 PM
Yes
Klavinmour - Today at 9:27 PM
The only reason TF2 is play tested today is because the team (of like 9 people) are mostly people who are fans of the game that got hired into Valve
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:27 PM
Robin Walker, the main designer of TF2, the director of the original Team Fortress and Team Fortress 2, is just some random writer.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:27 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Walker_(game_designer)
Robin Walker (game designer)
Robin Walker is an Australian video game designer best known for co-developing Team Fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2.
No he isn't, and wasn't
Co-developing
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:28 PM
So one of the main co-designers behind TF2 and TFC is just some random writer.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:28 PM
Yes
In this case, yes
specially in a 2009 post
Klavinmour - Today at 9:29 PM
As we keep saying
2009 TF2 was a VERY different game
That post was what, right before the update that gave us hats and unlockable weapons yeah
(hence Huntsman)
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:30 PM
@Klavinmour What specifically changed to make this a non-issue? What changed to make Robin Walker "a random writer"? You can't just say "it changed" and leave it at that, or else the point remains unproven.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:30 PM
the community
they've proven that snipers are not just not op, but an optional class to use consistently
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:31 PM
Did the community change how the sniper is designed? Did the community make it so that snipers can no longer kill you from the background while you're engaged in the foreground?
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:31 PM
No, they simply learned to play against it
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:31 PM
That doesn't stop it from being a broken concept.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:31 PM
It does
Klavinmour - Today at 9:31 PM
The point is, Robin didn't play TF2, especially on a level that matters, no game dev plays their game that much or with that much skill, the game changed HARD in 2009/2010, new weapons opened up the field massively
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:31 PM
In concept many things are one thing, in reality those things change in practice
that was weird to reread
Klavinmour - Today at 9:32 PM
Honestly going by your own logic @Wolvenreign any class that isn't played in 6v6 is broken and shouldn't exist
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:32 PM
Some things as concepts looks stupidly strong, when they actually are weak in practice
see: Dota 2 hero balance
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:32 PM
@Klavinmour Wrong, I never said anything about 6v6 and it is completely irrelevant.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:32 PM
it isn't
it's the competitive mode
wouldn't you think that someone good enough would abuse sniper if it was THAT good?
Klavinmour - Today at 9:33 PM
You said based on what we were saying that the Sniper doesn't have impact (at least on the scale you believe he does) then he shouldn't exist
Like I said before 6v6 meta is 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, One Medic and One Demo. NOTHING ELSE.
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:34 PM
@Klavinmour If he has less impact, then COMBINED with the fact that he has a fundamentally broken concept, then it is more evidence towards him not really being a necessity to include without thinking about how he fits with the rest of the game.
TF2 is almost done downloading.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:34 PM
then, one thing
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:34 PM
Going to make a video and hopefully illustrate my points more.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:34 PM
how do you plan on killing the medic + heavy pocket?
Klavinmour - Today at 9:35 PM
6pm AEST Tuesday to Friday I play TF2 on my stream, I'll easily put your worries about sniper to rest
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:38 PM
@╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ Good positioning, stickying the health kits with SR as well as blocking several key chokes. Or going Scout and quickly killing the med. Or going Pyro and axtinguishing the med or heavy. Or Spy. Or just having a better Heavy+Medic combo than they do. Especially the last one, because that would be an actual fucking CONTEST. Wow, what a concept! A multiplayer game actually is a contest between multiple people as to who plays the better game as opposed to a one-sided fight between a guy with falloff damage on his weapon (8/9) classes and one special snowflake motherfucker who gets to kill you from a range you could never do anything about or fire back on!
Fire back on with any reasonable effect, that is.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:39 PM
you can do all that
or, you could just have a class that punishes bad game sense and positioning like the sniper
you're a heavy in the open shooting randomly?
get headshotted, son
Klavinmour - Today at 9:40 PM
You're a heavy in the open shooting the enemy and you know there is a sniper? Duck.
Random ducking will throw off even the best snipers
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:41 PM
And in the process include an inherently broken concept that not even playtesting that proves it's broken would ever dislodge. Or, you could just have actual contests where the player's skill to skill ratio matters and not sacrifice actual engagement mechanics or have map design dominated by the concern that the sniper will become too overpowered on it.
There is so much that you sacrifice by including a character with that ability. Open sightlines could be totally awesome if it werent' for the sniper.
*weren't
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:41 PM
"inherently broken concept" why
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:41 PM
You could use them for more than just instant kills and sniper alleys.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:41 PM
broken concept, why
Klavinmour - Today at 9:42 PM
The simple matter is that no matter how far away a Sniper is, in TF2 you are never removed from the fight
As a Demo or Soldier can explosion jump to you, faster than you can react
A Scout can use Bonk to bypass your damage
A Spy can go invisible
Hell even an Engineer with a set of balls can Sentry jump into your face and crit wrench you
I'll go Pyro, airblast an enemy rocket so I can rocket jump into the face of your sniper
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:45 PM
I already explained why. If you are taking a vast amount of risk (instant kill levels of risk) just for being in their range while they have little to no risk of being killed by you and can see all of your projectiles coming while the hitscan damage has so much damage falloff that it means essentially nothing, even if you rarely ever get hit by it, that is fundamentally broken. Not to mention that the sniper has their whole team and hides behind them, forcing you to overextend if you want to get anywhere near them, forcing you to deal with THEM and not the objective. (You can deal with every other class while dealing with the objective. When the sniper shows up, he takes little to no risk while impeding your efforts to take the objective with maximum kill risk.)
TF2 is downloaded, so I'm going to make the video.
Brb.
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:46 PM
good night
keep the rest of this civil, please
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:46 PM
Yeah. Sorry if I got rude.
This is a subject that hurts me a lot. I try to be as rational about it as I can.
Klavinmour - Today at 9:47 PM
If you're sticky jumping or rocket jumping, overextending is your goal
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:47 PM
I only keep arguing about it because I'm open to having my mind changed on the subject.
Klavinmour - Today at 9:47 PM
On top of that, not only is your goal to overextend, but you have the means to escape without being touched at all
╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ - Today at 9:47 PM
"i am open to having my mind changed" no you don't(edited)
Klavinmour - Today at 9:47 PM
There is little to no risk getting into a Sniper's face as a Soldier or Demo
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:48 PM
@╲⎝⧹ Gallicien ⧸⎠╱ Just because I didn't change my mind immediately upon hearing what I currently understand to be bad arguments doesn't mean I'm not open to changing my mind if I find what I understand to be good arguments, especially if I can apply them to my play to make snipers irrelevant.
I would fucking LOVE to come back to TF2 and never be bothered again by this fucking game stopping menace.
Klavinmour - Today at 9:48 PM
Well you're coming into TF2 at a great time
With 40,000 cheaters just VAC banned yesterday
Wolvenreign - Today at 9:49 PM
brb
Klavinmour - Today at 9:49 PM
You're entire problem becomes non-existent, because everything you've described has to be from facing scripters