From Sokoloff:

Hi Courtney. My husband and I are traveling until Friday so I can't promise I'll get back right away but I really do appreciate you being willing to have a discussion with me directly. Happy to answer whatever questions I can.

Alex

—

From Courtney:

Hi Alex, no worries—please enjoy your time with your husband. I will include questions below, but they can be answered at your leisure.

I am approaching this conversation with the belief that I haven’t heard your side of the story in full, and don’t know precisely what your objections are. I promise to listen to what you have to say, and to evaluate your claims with as an objective a mind as my legal training offers. There is a tremendous amount of information—days worth of YouTube videos, as well as your impressive body of work, and so I’m aware that I cannot have seen all of the evidence at issue. If there is something out there that is more egregious than the thimbleful I have seen, I definitely want to see it.

I cannot offer legal advice. I also will not promise confidentiality. In fact, I will promise the opposite. If you present me with evidence that I believe proves that Sarra has infringed on your copyright, I will absolutely post this publicly and state my reasons for doing so. The reverse is also true: if I decide that your claims are meritless, I will say that. Nothing you send to me is confidential.

Obviously, the writing community cares about this important issue, and my goal is to try to figure out what is happening. You may want to ask your attorney if it is okay to discuss this matter with me.

I promise to give you the benefit of listening to your words, evaluating your evidence as objectively as I am able, and the courtesy of telling you my conclusions before discussing them publicly, so that if I am mistaken about your claims you can correct me. I cannot promise that I will agree with you, or that if we disagree repeatedly, I will not discuss this conversation.

On to the questions I have, that would help me determine what is happening:

1. You’ve mentioned the magnet workbook that Sarra made. Can you tell me, specifically, where this is/how to find it/provide a copy? Can you tell me which of your works this infringes upon, and in what manner?

2. Which of Sarra’s YouTube videos infringe on your copyright? Which of your copyrighted works does it infringe on? If it’s an entire book, can you point me to the chapters that are infringed upon?

I recognize that you may have a long list here—if this production would be onerous, choosing the one or two that are most egregious would be helpful.

3. You’ve mentioned that you have multiple comparison charts detailing similarities between your work and Sarra’s. Can you provide this to me?

4. Would you be willing to provide copies of all correspondence between your lawyer and Sarra’s lawyer, so that I can see what your lawyer claimed in the letter sent to Sarra, and what Sarra’s lawyer claimed in response?

I know that providing this would be a burden on you, and I also know that it’s possible you may not be able to provide some of these items on the advice of your attorney. If you can only give some of these—or if you want to send a few in advance, and then work on the others—that’s fine. Just let me know what’s going on.

Thanks in advance for your time, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this with me.

Courtney Milan

—

Also from Courtney:

In the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you that while watching some of Sarra’s videos to try to figure out if I could spot an issue, I happened on her series on time management for authors, and I did actually find it helpful enough to sign up for more on that particular topic.

I don’t believe this would make me biased in her favor—I don’t know her personally, and am not interacting beyond watching videos—but you deserve the courtesy of knowing that this is the case.

—

From Sokoloff:

Hey Courtney - I think I may have been confused about why you're asking these questions. I thought you were speaking as an author - in fact, I thought I'd met you at RWA, Romantic Times, something like that.

There are two broad categories of issues here: what is the legal case, but also what we as authors collectively believe is ethical behavior toward other authors — and how those legal and ethical issues are handled by the writers organizations, as well.

If you're approaching me as a lawyer, I do have a legal team and I would need to know more about why you're asking, and also of course, talk to my lawyers. This week that's definitely not going to happen. I'm not going to pretend I'm making a legal argument, that's my lawyers' job. (Sarra's claim in that video is completely false: there has NOT been a "legal outcome" to the issue and my claims have not "been deemed meritless." As you will know, only a court can decide that, and we haven't been anywhere near court.)

But if you want to discuss this as an author, and specifically discuss some of the information in my posts you seem to have investigated a little further beyond that video Sarra posted, I don't have any restrictions on that.

I hope that made some sense. I probably won't attempt to answer again for a few days, this is a blitz trip!

Alex

—

From Courtney:

Hi Alex,

I am not a member of any bar and so I cannot approach you as a lawyer, nor can I claim to be one. I was, however, trained as a lawyer and taught intellectual property in a law school before I quit to become an author.

I am approaching you as a person who wants to know the truth about what is happening, and as an author who cares about the community and what our community norms are. My concerns are entirely about the ethics. I obviously cannot adjudicate the legal claims. I also agree with you that since the matter has not been discussed in a court, your claims are still “live” and open for adjudication.

But the ethical issues cannot be fully separated from the legal claims. For one, I also believe it is unethical for an individual to falsely claim that someone else has infringed on copyright. So if I’m trying to make up my mind about the ethics of the situation, I do need to know something about the legal situation.

I am very confused about what you are claiming. You’ve told us that what Sarra says about your claims is false, but the reason that her version of events is taking hold is because you have not specifically identified infringing material, nor made a public claim that links directly to specific evidence that would help us understand what you’re objecting to.

I would like to hear you out on your claims. In order for that to happen, I need to know what precisely you are objecting to. I would like links to the specific material that you think is a problem. I would like you to tell me, specifically, what about the material it is that you think is a problem. And I would like you to point to the specific intellectual property of yours that it infringes on.

I understand that legal arguments are your lawyer’s job. But it is not possible for me to decide the ethical issues without specific information about what has been done. I cannot figure out what that is from your Facebook posts.

Right now, the only person providing specifics is Sarra—and I think that’s why she’s winning in the court of public opinion. I’m open to the possibility that she’s not telling the truth, but in order for me to evaluate that, you have to tell me what the truth is, so that I can examine the evidence and make up my mind.

If you would rather have your lawyer provide this information to me, that is also okay. Since this is a matter that is in active legal dispute, I absolutely do not want you to injure any chances you might have, and I agree with your assessment that it would be wise for you to discuss this entire situation—and what you should or should not say online—with counsel.

Enjoy your vacation!

—

From Sokoloff:

Hey Courtney - sorry for the delay in getting back to you. This time of year…

First, thanks for those clarifications. I understand where you’re coming from but I think you know that no lawyer would hand over the material you’re requesting, especially after you kind of prosecuted almost an entire case against me without ever trying to speak to me about what the other side of the story might be and what my actual claims are.

But I’m happy to have a dialogue about what I can talk about, if you’d really like a more balanced view of the issues here.

And if you’ve gotten your “facts” from Sarra’s slam video, I’d ask you to consider some of these points.

I can’t know what’s going on inside Sarra’s head or if she really believes any of the things she says in that video. But I know there is a whole lot she says that’s demonstrably false.

In case you haven’t seen my post on it -

1.     She claims that this matter has been “legally settled”, that my claims were “deemed meritless” and that I “have no legal recourse.”

“Legally settled” how, exactly? “Deemed meritless” by whom?

Only a court can determine the merits of this case and we haven’t been anywhere near a court yet. So who decided my “claims are meritless” and the case has been “legally settled” and I have “no legal recourse”? Sarra decided? Her lawyer decided? Does she really not know that’s not the way this works? Or is she trying to pretend otherwise to her followers?

2.    She tells her followers I claim to have exclusive right to teach the Three Act Structure.

By Sarra’s own admission, she’s taken my workshop “several times” and my Screenwriting Tricks for Authors is one of her “favorite books”. So she must know I always start my workshops by tracing the beginning of the Three Act Structure to the Golden Age of Greek theater, and Aristotle’s Poetics. I write the same in early chapters of each of the books.

I don’t claim any exclusive right to teach it.  I never have. My lawyers have never said I have. It is false and absurd to say that I ever claimed that.

3.    I have not claimed any exclusive right to use the word “pantser” or to talk about Harry Potter’s wound.

That is so false and ridiculous I can’t believe anyone would buy it for a second. But it sure looks like Sarra is trying to convince her followers that’s what I’ve claimed.

In fact, her entire list of “my claims” is false, and I can say that with confidence, because I know what I and my lawyers are claiming. For example -

4.    It seems like you yourself have figured out that one of my actual, specific contentions is that Sarra is using and distributing one of the CORE teachings of all my books and workshops, the Master List method that I detail throughout all the books, Sarra never asked permission to make her videos and blogs and workbooks about any of my methods, but at least she USED TO admit that she got methods like the Master List from my Screenwriting Tricks for Authors. She also called it “the BEST way to get story ideas and inspiration” and that it “changed her life.” But now she’s doing it WITHOUT attribution.

Does Sarra somehow not know that I and my lawyers have repeatedly, specifically objected to her now distributing this method that she USED TO admit she got from my copyrighted material -  to thousands of people as a lead magnet booklet to build her business - with no credit whatsoever to me?

If she does know, why didn’t she mention it in that slam video, if she “has nothing to hide?”

5.     This is what her own lawyer has said about it - unlike Sarra, I’m giving you a direct quote:


“Since Ms. Sokoloff has no patent, anyone can use the method, teach it, discuss it, earn money from it, etc. Accordingly Ms Cannon has no need to ask Ms. Sokoloff for permission to distribute or otherwise use the Master List method. Even if Ms. Cannon happens to have first learned master list method from Ms. Sokoloff, that does not mean that Ms. Sokoloff owns any legal rights in it or that Ms. Cannon needs Ms. Sokoloff’s permission to use such a method.”


Just from that quote, you can see that her lawyer knows this is not a debate about “the Three Act Structure” or the word “pantser” or “Harry Potter’s wound.” Does Sarra really not know?

Or is she deliberately keeping that from her followers?

And why didn’t Sarra mention in that video that her lawyer is claiming that she has the right to use specific work from my copyrighted books any way she likes  and “make money from it”?

Does she not know that her lawyer is claiming she has the right to use my work without permission or attribution?

Or does she not want her followers to know that that’s what she and her lawyer are trying to argue?

Because think about it.

If Sarra thinks she has the right to do that with the painstakingly developed work of someone she actually calls her “mentor” - that she has the right to use anything in my copyrighted books any way she wants -  then why should any writer she works with think that she won’t do the same to them and the work of THEIR heart?

Why should any author think that she won’t take anything from THEIR books that she thinks she can use for her own profit? Why would you think she wouldn’t do it to you and your work?

What kind of author—let alone a writing teacher, writing mentor, writing coach—would try to make that claim?

As for her claim I’m “weaponizing” my “fan base” to “attack her fans” - I haven’t. People who have come to my Facebook page to ask that question themselves seem to understand that’s not what’s going on, here. I’ve specifically, publicly asked some pretty high powered author friends NOT to take action yet. What I am doing is publicly objecting to Sarra using and distributing, without attribution, material she USED TO admit she got from my copyrighted books.

As a law school grad, I’m sure you’re familiar with the principle: Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

So I hope that some of these points will make you at least a tiny bit more skeptical that you are getting the full picture from Sarra, and even make you wonder a little about why she would present such a demonstrably false set of claims. Maybe you could start asking her some of the questions you’ve asked me.

Again, I’m happy to keep the dialogue going, bearing in mind that you and I both have a lot more important work to do.

Very happy holidays to you and all  -  Alex

—

From Courtney:

Hi Alex,

Thank you for your detailed response.
I would love to be able to rely on something specific from you, in lieu of Sarra’s claims which of course are one-sided. I am willing to accept that Sarra has not accurately represented your claims. And as you say, I cannot know what your claims are until I ask you.

I am very interested in hearing more about this: “One of my actual, specific contentions is that Sarra is using and distributing one of the CORE teachings of all my books and workshops, the Master List method that I detail throughout all the books.”

I would like to hear more about how this is happening, because it’s very relevant to this conversation.

Is she teaching the method in her own words, and you object to that? Or has she copied your actual words? If the latter, can you point me to the specific material that you’re objecting to? You’ve mentioned the reader magnet before, but I apparently have not been able to identify that material correctly, so a link would be helpful so that we are on the same page.

As for why I’m not asking her the questions, I am asking you this precisely because the only person who can actually tell me what you are claiming is you. If Sarra is not telling the truth, and so I could not possibly find out the truth by asking her.

I do need to ask you.

Thanks, and happy holidays,
Courtney

—

From Sokoloff:

Hey Courtney. I do want to go further with this discussion, and given these emails I think - hope - we can.

But look. You say “I am asking you this precisely because the only person who can actually tell me what you are claiming is you.”

The fact is, you didn’t ask me anything before you posted your case against me on Twitter. As you know, the only reason we are talking now is that I contacted you. You not knowing anything for real is not down to me not telling you, it’s down to you not even trying to ask before you posted your extensive and damning conclusions on Twitter and maybe other places as well.

And apparently you didn’t apply your rigorous standards of evidence to Sarra’s presentation against me—you just ran with what she says I did and said and claimed, even though again, as you are saying privately, the only person who can actually tell you what I am claiming is me (and my lawyers) and Sarra “may not have accurately represented (my) claims.”

So if this is really going to be a good faith discussion, I’d first like to know what you’re going to do in good faith about that false case against me that you’ve already so publicly presented.

Are you going to start with a clean slate and state some facts publicly, honestly - for example -

—That you never talked to me before you posted ANY of what you posted or asked me to clarify anything for you?
—That you didn’t know and don’t know my actual claims because you never asked me?
—That you analyzed the wrong lead magnet workbook because Sarra left that actual claim of mine completely out of her slam video, and you didn’t ask me (until now, after I contacted you) which lead magnet workbook I was referring to?
—Or at the very least, that you’ve been getting your information from Sarra’s video in which, as you now say, Sarra perhaps “has not accurately represented (my) claims”?

Because yes, I’m willing to go much further with this discussion - but I’m not an idiot. Given your very public case against me so far, why should I believe that you have any intention of treating me fairly and objectively now?

If you’ve already taken down and clarified the misleading information you’ve posted, I apologize for not having seen your retraction. We have a full house for Christmas.

Have a great one, whatever you’re celebrating.

—

From Courtney:

Hi Alex,

In order to have a good faith discussion, I believe both sides must participate in good faith. To that end, I ask you to kindly amend what you have stated in your last email, as I believe it inaccurately states what I have done.

The vast majority of what I have posted has been in response not to Sarra Cannon’s video, but in response to your own Facebook posts. The only response I had to Sarra Cannon’s video itself was to post generic advice, followed by a link to someone else’s tweet and this exact statement: “lol at thinking you could claim this.” This is not precisely lengthy analysis, nor does it constitute prosecuting a case.

This is where that happened: https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1466519115070386178

If you can point me to anywhere else that I have taken the truth to be that which was stated in Sarra’s video rather than your own words, I would appreciate it.

The remainder of my tweets were solidly and clearly in response to your words, and analyzed your claims as you, yourself expressed them, without reference to Sarra’s videos.

This is what I believe to be a complete list of things I have said about your claims:

* This is a response to your tweet directed at Sarra accusing her of infringement. It references your words, not hers.
https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1466519702549708805

* This is a reaction to your Facebook post. It references your words, not hers. https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1466804424450273286

* This is a response to another Facebook post. This is where I identify the only lead magnet workbook I have been able to find as a potential culprit. Immediately upon being told that this was in error, I asked you to provide a link to the real offending material. You have not replied.
https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1466934619907837953

* This thread is general background which explains why methods are not copyrightable, and why I believe it would be damaging to allow others to claim ownership of them. It does not reference either you or Sarra, but provides background legal material.
https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1467137107185397764

* Finally, there is this thread, in which I acknowledge that I cannot possibly rule out infringement because I have not been had any direct claims:
https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1467517746950729730

There is also this brief thread, which is pertinent to this case, but hardly lengthy, and more background than specific:

https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1466801711004090379

If we are to have a conversation in good faith, I ask you to acknowledge that the vast majority of my discussion here—aside from a single tweet saying “lol”—has been in response not to Sarra’s video, but to your posts. It would therefore be false for me to admit that I relied on Sarra’s video; I did not. I relied on your posts.

I also ask that you understand the framework in which you operate. You are the one who made the claim that Sarra has acted badly. You are the one who has suggested, multiple times, that the question here is one of author morality and how we act as a group. As the one making the accusations, you bear the burden of proof. The fact that I have not been able to identify with particularity the material that you are objecting to is a result of your unwillingness to publicly identify that material.

I analyzed the only lead magnet workbook I have been able to find, and when you told me I was wrong, explicitly asked you to provide me with a link to the correct one. I have asked you, repeatedly, to provide that link.

I will ask you again. Will you provide links to the specific content that infringes on your work? This is, quite frankly, what you owed the community when you first leveled the accusations against Sarra. If you want people to be morally outraged about a person’s behavior, you must be willing to prove that behavior has occurred. Demonstrating that you have a basis for your claims is not a special favor that you would be doing me in exchange for my taking my threads down. It is what I believe is morally required of anyone who makes the public accusations that you have made.

—

From Sokoloff:

Hi Courtney - Happy New Year. I think you have misinterpreted my email. It is true, right, that you never asked me to clarify ANYTHING about this situation before you posted extensively on Twitter?

Your links are a bit overwhelming. You posted even more about this than I was aware of. I'm a bit stupefied that you would post so very much against another author, a peer, without once seeking input from that author.

Can we just start this one at a time? Your tweet:

Just re-upping my generic advice that you should not sue someone for copyright infringement unless you can get someone who specializes in copyright to say that you definitely have a clear claim and the person you are suing has assets to make it worthwhile.


I have made it VERY clear to Sarra from the beginning that I DO NOT WANT TO SUE HER. She is the one who has consistently refused to talk to me and brought a very aggressive attorney into this. I DO have a large and reputable copyright attorney team involved and the evidence they have gathered is exactly what they say is needed to prove copyright infringement:  repeated and striking similarities of language and examples taken from the copyrighted source material.

But I want to be very clear. I don't want Sarra's assets. I don't want to sue her. I want her to STOP using, without permission or attribution, material that her own videos, blogs and posts USED TO make clear she got from my copyrighted Screenwriting Tricks for Authors books and which she is now distributing to thousands of people without ANY credit to me.

That is very much a moral argument to me.

—

From Courtney:

Alex,

I have asked you repeatedly to back up your moral argument by providing me with a single one of the—your language—“repeated and striking similarities of language and examples taken from the copyrighted source material.”

You have not done so, despite claiming to want to have an actual conversation.

A response to this email that does not contain examples of the similarities you claim will exist will be taken as an outright refusal to provide those similarities and an end of the conversation. A lack of response within a week will be taken as the same.

I promised you the benefit of telling you what I believed to be the case before I went public with it, so here is what I think: Right now, I think you don’t have a case. Because anyone who did wouldn’t bother with yelling at me about all of this stuff. You’d just say “hey, you’re wrong, here’s the proof.” When someone yells without proof? I dunno, seems like you’re trying to gaslight me into taking down things that are essentially correct.

You can easily prove me wrong, if I am wrong, by providing me with the thing I have requested five times now. Provide me with examples of the similarities you claim exist.