09:52	*** Flickerdart joined #agameof5e mibbit@gamesurge-362ffff1.nycmny.fios.verizon.net
This is a channel for grishnax's currently unnamed 5e campaign. More information here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y5Too5ntp1wKllJsJCDWZo0nUiZ2JYbZtAlWv32UWEs
Topic set by *.GameSurge.net on Mon Aug 31 2015 18:47:43 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
11:39	*** For|rest is now known as Forrest
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14:10	<Forrest> so, what sort of aesthetics do we want for this world?
14:11	*** Callyn|NinjaVanish is now known as Callyn
14:12	<Flickerdart> Stone age Rococo
14:13	<Flickerdart> Swirls and flowers and shit, drawn on cave walls with soot
14:13	<Forrest> I like the idea of ARABIAN NIIIIII~IIGHTS or something jungly
14:13	<Flickerdart> Poofy ballgowns made out of mammoth hides
14:14	<Callyn> I don't want to wear stone plate
14:14	<Flickerdart> Rococo was post-plate IIRC
14:14	<Flickerdart> Firearms and all that
14:14	<Flickerdart> 18th century yep
14:14	Callyn shrugs
14:15	<Flickerdart> So you'd have curaissiers or whatever but no knights
14:15	<Forrest> needs more thaluud stone armor
14:15	<Flickerdart> More like stoned armour
14:15	<Flickerdart> *takes a hit* I'm so well-defended, man
14:15	<Forrest> XD
14:15	<Callyn> lol
14:16	<Forrest> thaluud stone was what
14:16	<Forrest> a base armor value of +14?
14:16	<Forrest> "Mechanus gear can suck it"
14:17	<Flickerdart> Real men just take clockwork armour
14:17	<Flickerdart> And set themselves on fire to offset the freezing thing
14:17	<Forrest> aristocrat dip for proficiency?
14:17	<Flickerdart> You don't need to be proficient to use clockwork armour
14:18	<Flickerdart> It's not, strictly speaking, an armour
14:18	<Forrest> ah
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15:19	<grishnax> Well now I feel awkward
15:19	<Callyn> ?
15:19	<grishnax> Apparently GoldDragon gets an error message when he tries to join the chatroom
15:19	<Callyn> Huh
15:19	<grishnax> So I feel a bit worse for kicking him
15:20	<Flickerdart> It's his fault that he didn't tell you
15:20	<Flickerdart> until now
15:20	<grishnax> True
15:21	<grishnax> As I said, I feel a bit worse
15:21	<grishnax> But it's ultimately his fault for the lack of communication
15:29	<Flickerdart> Are you allowing non-core races?
15:31	<grishnax> Go for it
15:31	<grishnax> Run it by me first
15:31	<grishnax> But it should be fine
15:32	<Flickerdart> I was looking at Aarakocra from Elemental Evil
15:33	<Flickerdart> Was thinking that it would be cool for a reincarnatey druid to be a weird fucked up race
15:33	<Flickerdart> And insisting that he's a people
15:33	<Flickerdart> Plus it's funny to be reverse otherkin
15:33	<Forrest> XD
15:34	<grishnax> The one problem with that is that they have fly speed
15:34	<grishnax> Of 50 ft
15:34	<grishnax> Which is quite strong, from what I understand
15:34	<Flickerdart> It says 30ft
15:34	<Flickerdart> Or did I mis-remember
15:35	<grishnax> I'm looking at the Player's Companion right now
15:35	<Flickerdart> I figure I can turn into a bat or something anywya
15:35	<grishnax> It says 50
15:35	<Flickerdart> Oh, ok
15:35	<Forrest> you did, it's 50 feet.
15:35	<Forrest> the big reason it's incredibly strong is because fly speeds have an opportunity cost of Concentration in most cases
15:35	<Forrest> come online at high levels
15:35	<Forrest> or are from magic items
15:35	<Flickerdart> So I can't turn into a bat?
15:35	<Forrest> now, an aarakocra isn't actually that OP if people can get their hands on brooms of flying
15:35	<Forrest> or refluffed brooms of flying
15:36	<Forrest> they built in a really cheap method of getting flight
15:36	<Forrest> right into the system
15:36	<Forrest> but it does completely change how the game is played
15:36	<grishnax> Flying could be problematic
15:36	<grishnax> Possibly
15:37	<grishnax> The problem is, I still don't have a good idea of what I'm doing
15:37	<Forrest> well, not really a "could." Outside of dungeons (and even in some dungeons), it's immunity to melee
15:37	<Forrest> it's the same problem 3.x had
15:37	<Forrest> if you have flying, things without flying stop being relevant in many situations
15:37	<Forrest> which is why everything at high level 3.x needs flying
15:37	<grishnax> oh
15:37	<grishnax> huh
15:37	<Flickerdart> Doesn't 5e have better archery?
15:37	<Forrest> if you focus on it
15:38	<Forrest> if the monster was written with a focus on it
15:38	<Forrest> most weren't
15:39	<Forrest> anyway, aarakocra is weird because it's either broken or not hugely useful
15:40	<Forrest> if flight isn't a big deal in the game, then them getting flight as their only relevant race feature makes them bad
15:40	<Forrest> if flight is a big deal, then it's significantly stronger than every other race
15:40	<Forrest> also, you can turn into a bat
15:40	<Forrest> but only at level 8 or higher
15:41	<Forrest> druids can't take flying forms until then
15:41	<Flickerdart> oh hm
15:42	<Forrest> I like how aarakocra are... birds, though
15:42	<Forrest> they're not people shaped like birds
15:43	<Forrest> they're birds that happen to be people
15:43	<Forrest> with the mannerisms to match
15:43	<Forrest> it's kinda great
15:44	*** grishnax is now known as grishnaway
15:44	<Flickerdart> Caw! Caw!
15:45	Flickerdart shits on the party from up high
15:45	<Forrest> "Many aarakocra punctuate their speech with chirps,
15:45	<Forrest> sounds they use to convey emphasis and to shade
15:45	<Forrest> meaning, much as a human might through facial
15:45	<Forrest> expressions and gestures. An aarakocra might become
15:45	<Forrest> frustrated with people who fail to pick up on the
15:45	<Forrest> nuances; an aarakocra’s threat might be taken as a jest
15:45	<Forrest> and vice versa"
15:45	<Forrest> actually yes
15:46	<Flickerdart> "Chirp chirp, motherfucker."
15:49	<Flickerdart> You know...if aarakocra have bird noises instead of facial expressions
15:49	<Flickerdart> They are amazing liars
15:49	<Forrest> yeah
15:49	<Forrest> hrm
15:50	<Flickerdart> AND they are a Good race so people will think they are honest
15:50	<Forrest> like lammasus
15:50	<Flickerdart> But then haha, it was a trick!
15:50	<Forrest> we should rewrite the aarakocra to get a raptoran-like scaling fly speed
15:50	<Forrest> and actual abilities
15:50	<Forrest> like free proficiency in deception
15:51	<Forrest> or maybe advantage on it
15:51	<Forrest> trade away the binary broken/useless ability for real stuff, I guess
15:54	<Flickerdart> I kinda just want to walk into a room and accidentally knock people's hats off with my wings
15:54	<Flickerdart> And then pretend I did it on purpose and they should bare their heads out of respect for Star's character
15:54	<Forrest> XD
15:55	<Flickerdart> Do druids not get animal companions this time around?
15:56	<Forrest> they can Charm animals to follow them around but otherwise do not
15:56	<Forrest> the handle animal skill also works
15:56	<Forrest> but it's not native to the class
15:56	<Flickerdart> Weird
15:57	<Flickerdart> Is awaken a thing?
15:57	<Forrest> yeah
15:57	<Forrest> 5th-level spell
15:57	<Flickerdart> I want to awaken some owls and give them chain-smoking New Jersey trucker personalities
15:57	<Flickerdart> I don't know why that particular combination
15:59	*** grishnaway is now known as grishnax
15:59	<grishnax> heh
16:03	<Forrest> http://pastebin.com/g4vhsTDA
16:03	<Forrest> proposed Aarakocra fix
16:05	<Flickerdart> Isn't +2 to an ability really really good?
16:05	<Forrest> all races get +2 to one and +1 to another
16:05	<grishnax> Most things have a +2, iirc
16:05	<grishnax> Yeah
16:05	<Forrest> half-elves get +2 Cha and +1 to two others
16:05	<Forrest> humans get +1 to all scores
16:05	<Flickerdart> oh
16:05	<Forrest> aarakocra's baseline is +2 dex and +1 wis
16:06	<Forrest> I saw no reason to change it. they have a good stat spread
16:06	<Forrest> especially for non-moon druids
16:08	<Forrest> oops
16:08	<Forrest> forgot a thing
16:08	<Forrest> http://pastebin.com/TSkbpsQj
16:08	<Forrest> glide should give horizontal movement, even if it's just a bit
16:08	<Forrest> also made it so that if falling in heavy armor, you can still wings to reduce the fall
16:08	<Forrest> thoughts, grishnax/Flickerdart?
16:09	<grishnax> Sounds good to me
16:09	<grishnax> Although maybe the fly speed could start at 30, then go to 40, then 50?
16:09	<Flickerdart> Do raptorans really get discount Slow Fall?
16:09	<Forrest> I can't remember
16:09	<Forrest> I made it up as I went
16:09	<grishnax> I am not a 5e expert by any means
16:10	<Forrest> raptorans don't exist in 5e
16:10	<Flickerdart> Because "breaks 10ft of fall" is kind of a sad power, at least by 3.5 standards
16:10	<Flickerdart> Dunno if it's better in 5th
16:10	Forrest checks feather fall
16:10	<Forrest> ... yeah
16:11	<Forrest> feather fall is 60ft of fall per round for one minute
16:11	Forrest checks slow fall
16:11	<Forrest> slow fall is "reduce damage you take by 5*level when you fall."
16:11	<Forrest> huh
16:12	<Forrest> that's actually really good. at level 14, you never take fall damage
16:14	<Flickerdart> What is this, drowning and falling
16:14	<Forrest> on average, that is
16:16	<Forrest> http://pastebin.com/QZP4yq4k
16:17	<Forrest> scales much better in this version because yeah, that first one was crappy
16:18	<Forrest> at level 8 it stops mattering in most cases but can be abused for extra movement in some cases
16:19	<Flickerdart> I'm just getting the image of aarakocra paratroopers
16:19	<Forrest> haha
16:19	<Flickerdart> Jumping off dragons and moving 200ft horizontally
16:19	<Flickerdart> Because I have the need, Forrest
16:19	<Flickerdart> The need
16:19	<Flickerdart> for speed
16:20	<Forrest> up to their land or fly speed, so generally not quite as much
16:20	<Forrest> but a high-level one
16:20	<Forrest> with speed boosts
16:20	<Forrest> hell yes
16:20	<Forrest> I need this too
16:20	<Forrest> hey grishnax
16:20	<Flickerdart> entire party of aarakocra
16:20	<grishnax> ?
16:20	<Forrest> what sort of aesthetics are we going for in this world?
16:20	<grishnax> Oh
16:20	<Flickerdart> Dungeon World it up
16:20	<grishnax> Oh god
16:21	<Forrest> I like the idea of ARABIAN NII~IIIGHTS or something jungle/wilderness/zendikar
16:21	<grishnax> Also, for that, I'd probably do some sky world
16:21	<grishnax> Floating islands and stuff
16:21	<Forrest> well, presumably there are places with floating landmasses
16:21	Flickerdart vows to crash a floating island into another floating island
16:21	<Forrest> ala that one mountain in Avatar
16:21	<Forrest> er
16:21	<Forrest> blue indians Avatar
16:21	<Forrest> that's probably where the aarakocra come from
16:22	<Flickerdart> can I play a paladin and designate a floating island fortress as my mount
16:22	<Flickerdart> how awesome would that be
16:22	<Forrest> Call Vehicle
16:22	<Flickerdart> (way awesome)
16:22	<Forrest> for a flying boulder
16:22	<Flickerdart> Howl, Eat Your Heart Out (Ex)
16:22	<grishnax> This is a pretty amusing concept
16:22	<Forrest> UA_ModernMagic.pdfView next to chat page 6 of this
16:23	<Forrest> best
16:23	<Forrest> spell
16:23	<Forrest> EVER
16:23	<Flickerdart> can we use Modern UA, grishnax
16:23	<grishnax> Digital Phantom?
16:23	<Forrest> no
16:23	<Forrest> the other one
16:23	<Forrest> Find Vehicle
16:23	<Forrest> I feel like whether or not modern UA was in play would depend on the world in general
16:23	<grishnax> Yeah, it depends on things
16:23	<Forrest> is it a weird schizophrenic mix of fantasy and technology?
16:23	<Forrest> cus that'd be neat
16:23	<Forrest> but it'd very much change stuff
16:24	<grishnax> I'd probably allow spells per request
16:24	<grishnax> And if they fit into the world
16:24	<Forrest> most need to be rebalanced anyway
16:24	<Forrest> find vehicle to summon a unique demon car is badass though
16:24	<Forrest> and eventually a demon BRRRT
16:24	<Forrest> once you hit CL 13
16:24	<Flickerdart> "When)you)cast)this)spell)using)a)spell)slot)of)7th)  level)or)higher,)you)can)conjure)any)type)of)  vehicle,)subject)to)the)DM’s)approval."
16:24	<Flickerdart> ehehehe
16:25	<Forrest> also wtf did they do to the formatting of that pdf
16:25	<grishnax> That's weird
16:25	<grishnax> I think I know why they did it
16:25	<grishnax> To make it too much effort to copy/paste it
16:26	<Forrest> none of the other UAs are like that
16:26	<Forrest> iirc
16:26	<grishnax> oh
16:26	<grishnax> eh
16:26	<Forrest> yeah
16:26	<Forrest> just checked
16:26	<Forrest> okay
16:26	<Forrest> spells that would likely fit
16:26	<Forrest> Arcane Hacking (just messing with magic smartly, after all)
16:27	<Forrest> Commune With City
16:27	<Forrest> Find Vehicle (unique demon car, hell yeah)
16:27	<grishnax> So Arcane Hacking is basically tampering with existing spells?
16:28	<Forrest> Arcane Hacking is "you get advantage when hacking, and can use hacking to break arcane locks and low-level warding glyphs"
16:28	<Forrest> change it to use thieves tools
16:28	<Forrest> and normal locks
16:28	<Forrest> and then leave the magic
16:28	<Forrest> bam, fits into a fantasy setting
16:28	<Flickerdart> "Spells: hacked"
16:28	<Flickerdart> "Gods: hacked"
16:28	<Flickerdart> "All the magic: hacked"
16:28	<Forrest> Infallible Relay would work except there's no focus for it
16:28	<Forrest> but honestly
16:28	<Forrest> fitting it in could be neat
16:28	<Forrest> maybe it takes the nearest pen and paper and starts writing a message
16:29	<Forrest> and people can have specially-prepared sheets and pens for this spell
16:29	<Flickerdart> It beams the message into the mind of the nearest unsuspecting passer-by
16:29	<Flickerdart> Who goes blank and speaks it in monotone
16:29	<Forrest> Invisible to Cameras isn't relevant
16:29	<Forrest> On/Off isn't relevant
16:29	<Forrest> Protection from Ballistics is 'you take half damage from guns'
16:30	<Forrest> which may be fine to change to work against other ranged attacks but honestly, eh
16:30	<Flickerdart> On/Off could be neat if adapted to toggle torches or something
16:30	<Forrest> ooh
16:30	<Forrest> yeah
16:30	<Forrest> remote access is irrelevant
16:30	<Flickerdart> But that's basically just a hooded lantern then
16:30	<Forrest> shutdown changes to Blackout
16:30	<grishnax> Protection from Ballistics could be cool if it applies to arrows and stuff too
16:30	<Flickerdart> Which is roughly the level of a cantrip's power
16:30	<Forrest> @grishnax yeah
16:30	<Forrest> okay I'm gonna write up a list of these
16:30	<Forrest> and modifications to them
16:30	<grishnax> Go for it
16:31	<Forrest> if that aarakocra rebuild is alright for your game, could you add it to the google doc so we don't lose it?
16:31	<Forrest> http://pastebin.com/QZP4yq4k
16:31	<grishnax> Btw, I'm going to add the Aarakocra thing- yeah, that
16:31	<Flickerdart> Conjure spam: Target creature has disadvantage on Wisdom (concentration and spot) rolls
16:32	<Flickerdart> Hot Singles in Your Area (Su)
16:32	<Flickerdart> Target incorrectly believes it is sexually desirable
16:33	<grishnax> Actually, for shutdown, it could cause all mechanical devices to jam
16:33	<grishnax> Things like crossbows, catapults, etc.
16:33	<grishnax> Also, I kind of want to add a level of technology to this campaign
16:34	<Forrest> tangentally-related: http://demonsmirror.com/page/348 you should read this webcomic
16:34	<Forrest> it's got a fun weird mix of tech and fantasy
16:34	<Flickerdart> grishnax: Look up some alternate -punks
16:35	grishnax notes for later
16:35	<Flickerdart> Also consider that the ancient world had quite a bit of tech in terms of water, wind, and animal power diverted to things like processing wheat or grapes
16:35	*** grishnax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ~grishnax@grishnax.user.gamesurge
16:35	<Flickerdart> It's not too far-fetched to expand that
16:35	<Flickerdart> Escalator powered by a water wheel
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16:36	<grishnax> Blarg internet
16:36	<Flickerdart> 16:35	<Flickerdart> Also consider that the ancient world had quite a bit of tech in terms of water, wind, and animal power diverted to things like processing wheat or grapes 16:35	*** grishnax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ~grishnax@grishnax.user.gamesurge  16:35	<Flickerdart> It's not too far-fetched to expand that 16:35	<Flickerdart> Escalator
16:36	<Flickerdart>  powered by a water wheel
16:36	<grishnax> Hmm...
16:37	<grishnax> I was thinking some level of magitech
16:37	<Flickerdart> Magic punk works too
16:37	<Flickerdart> Eberron styles?
16:37	<grishnax> Kinda
16:37	<Flickerdart> The interesting thing about any kind of tech is that it would be extremely localized socially
16:38	<Flickerdart> Peasants can't afford jack shit pretty much ever
16:38	<Flickerdart> Nobility is too tradition-bound to bother
16:38	<Flickerdart> It's only your bourgeois that embrace it
16:38	<Flickerdart> Especially if they can use it to make their businesses more profitable
16:38	<grishnax> That's interesting
16:38	<grishnax> That also gives me another diea
16:38	<grishnax> *idea
16:38	<Forrest> mostly linked the above webcomic because its weird mix has fun magitech like cybernetics, and "modern-ish" civilization, but also fantasy stuff and the results of mixing fantasy thematics with modern thematics
16:38	<Forrest> as opposed to Eberron's WW1 thematics
16:38	<Forrest> etc
16:39	<grishnax> huh
16:39	<Forrest> well-written and worth the read.
16:39	<Flickerdart> Also there's a really neat book I read once
16:39	<Flickerdart> Tunnel in the Sky
16:40	<grishnax> I think I'm going for late middle ages-to-early renaissance society
16:40	<Flickerdart> it's about a spacefaring future of the Stargate variety, where actual ships are impractical so they use portals
16:40	<Flickerdart> But these portals are hella spensive
16:40	<Flickerdart> So they send colonies and check in after a few years
16:40	<Forrest> @grishnax sounds good to me
16:40	<Flickerdart> The colonists bring very little tech because if a cow breaks a leg, the leg heals
16:40	<Flickerdart> But if a robot breaks a leg, you need a new robot leg
16:40	<Flickerdart> So you have laser guns and cattle side by side
16:43	<Flickerdart> Basically it's super easy to justify any kind of tech level
16:43	<Flickerdart> Or mix.
16:43	<Flickerdart> You could also go the Arcanum route of magic VS tech rather than magitech
16:43	<grishnax> Arcanum?
16:44	<Flickerdart> An old CRPG
16:44	<Flickerdart> You can deck out your dude as a spellcaster or tech guy, but magic and tech don't mix together
16:44	<grishnax> huh
16:44	<Flickerdart> It's a lot more involved than Shadowrun's "more robot bits = less mejick" thing
16:45	<Forrest> http://pastebin.com/EWMP26LW
16:45	<Flickerdart> You could have an elite bunch of mages resisting mass-produced, cheap tech - or tech guys enforcing their stuff on a pastoral, druidic focused peasantry
16:46	<Flickerdart> Or why not both - middle class tech, upper class wizards, lower class shamans
16:46	<Forrest> I like magitech, personally. or at the very least tech that /works/ for mages
16:46	<Flickerdart> Well, it's more like
16:46	<Forrest> magic can't be used to build tech or augment tech, perhaps
16:46	<Forrest> but a wizard can use a computer
16:46	<Flickerdart> Put an old person in front of a computer
16:46	<Forrest> unlike in, say, Dresden
16:46	<Flickerdart> It WORKS for them
16:46	<Flickerdart> But it doesn't work for them
16:46	<Forrest> right
16:47	<Forrest> that could be neat
16:47	<grishnax> So they just don't get it?
16:47	<Forrest> well
16:47	<Forrest> plenty of old people get it
16:47	<Forrest> but they're not channeling the power of their Old through it to make it stronger
16:47	<grishnax> Ah
16:47	<Forrest> and a wizard might find tech to be unintuitive and mind-boggling
16:47	<Forrest> but a mage could learn a computer
16:47	<Forrest> and a programmer could learn magic
16:48	<Flickerdart> Oh
16:48	<Flickerdart> That reminds me
16:48	<Forrest> but the two couldn't mix
16:48	<Flickerdart> Best magitech book ever
16:48	<Forrest> can't program spells
16:48	<Flickerdart> Monday Begins on Saturday
16:48	<Forrest> and can't mage computers into existence
16:48	<Flickerdart> A computer programmer is shanghaied by a magic research institute to run their IT
16:48	<Flickerdart> hilarity ensues
16:48	<Forrest> the line may blur a bit for some things (artificers "building" spells in a similar manner to a computer program)
16:48	<Forrest> but overall, trying to mix them results in things breaking
16:49	<Flickerdart> Forrest: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thoughtstem/codespells-express-yourself-with-magic
16:49	<Forrest> presumably, intent is involved, too
16:49	<Flickerdart> like this?
16:49	<Forrest> yeah
16:49	<grishnax> be back in a minute
16:49	*** grishnax is now known as grishnaway
16:49	<Forrest> I've always envisioned wizard magic in D&D as being basically codespells
16:49	<Forrest> except the code explodes you instead of segfaulting
16:49	<Forrest> but it's got its own rules; you couldn't be able to, say, code a spell in Java in this setting
16:49	<Flickerdart> Also no wizard knows good code style
16:50	<Forrest> you'd need to build it using Eye of N3wt
16:50	<Flickerdart> I'm sure someone could write a JVM in magic
16:50	<Flickerdart> That's the entire point, isn't it
16:50	<Flickerdart> of Java
16:50	<Forrest> heh
16:50	<Flickerdart> But then it's one of those things where it's easier to just buy a computer
16:50	<Forrest> there was a similar conversation a while back about 3.x artificers
16:51	<Flickerdart> Like how you could cast Throw Item, or buy a crossbow
16:51	<Flickerdart> Launch Bolt*
16:51	<Forrest> "Saying an artificer has really powerful magic is like saying a programmer has really powerful Java, when he programs in Assembly."
16:51	<Flickerdart> haha
16:51	Flickerdart has level 9 methods
16:52	<Forrest> anyway
16:52	<Forrest> yeah
16:53	<Forrest> I like the idea of some sort of tech existing (even if it's a weird -punk tech)
16:53	<Forrest> but being incompatible with magic because of Reasons that are likely efficiency and just non-interaction
16:53	<Forrest> "it's just how the world works"
16:53	<Forrest> intent comes into it. If you try to use magic in the construction of a -punk machine, the magic rebels
16:53	<Forrest> if you try to use -punk in the assembly of a spell, the magic rebels
16:54	<Forrest> if you happen to accidentally mix the two
16:54	<Forrest> the magic works fine until someone points it out
16:54	<Forrest> and then the magic rebels
16:54	<Forrest> that could be the major difference between tech and magic, actually
16:54	<Forrest> magic has build-your-spell and rules and everything
16:54	<Forrest> but above all else
16:54	<Forrest> it's based on intent
16:55	<Forrest> and belief
16:55	<Forrest> and some sort of personal power
16:55	<Forrest> the -punk tech is not, it works and does what you tell it to do
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16:55	<Forrest> but does not care about intent whatsoever
16:55	<Forrest> if you cast a fireball and accidentally put in too much bat shit, your fireball is going to still be the right size instead of backfiring
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16:55	<Forrest> because that's what it's supposed to do
16:55	<Forrest> if you make a -punk cannon and add too much gunpowder
16:55	<Forrest> it's going to fuck something up
16:55	<Forrest> which might be you
16:56	<Forrest> but it's significantly easier to set up to work in a specific way
16:56	<Forrest> thoughts?
16:59	<Forrest> ooh, this could also be why arcane and divine focuses work
16:59	<Forrest> because magic doesn't /care/ what you use
16:59	<Forrest> it's all just placebos
16:59	<Forrest> and mental crutches
17:00	<Forrest> also
17:00	<Forrest> this could explain why there aren't guns
17:00	<Forrest> even if there's -punk tech
17:01	<Forrest> -punk tech works on certain principles but everyone has magic. A crossbow works better because it's built out of natural materials. A crossbow bolt is made of wood, which was once alive with its own magic
17:01	<Forrest> (also gives an easy way to handle guns)
17:01	<Forrest> (guns = refluffed crossbow. Because they do roughly the same stuff)
17:02	<Forrest> (wood's passive magic interacts better with the targets' passive magic than a lead bullet does)
17:02	<Forrest> (so on average, a pistol does the same as a crossbow bolt)
17:03	<Forrest> melee weapons don't have that issue because a person's holding them.
17:03	<Forrest> the force behind it is a person's force, not the gunpowder explosion
17:03	<Forrest> ... wait, this is basically how Tower of God ran it
17:03	<Forrest> hah
17:11	*** grishnaway is now known as grishnax
17:11	<grishnax> I'm back now
17:11	<grishnax> Anything happen while I was gone?
17:12	Forrest proposed a metaphysics system
17:13	grishnax reads over it
17:15	<grishnax> I'm kinda confused
17:15	<Flickerdart> So magic is Ork tech?
17:15	<Forrest> not sure if "proposed" is the right word. It is an idea for reconciling magic and tech being incompatible
17:15	<Forrest> @Flickerdart basically, yes
17:17	<Forrest> @grishnax what can I help clear up?
17:19	<grishnax> So for my understanding, tech is just building stuff
17:19	<grishnax> But how exactly does magic work?
17:19	<Flickerdart> I've always found the "magic is a mental crutch" thing amusing but not very satisfying
17:19	<Forrest> tautologically
17:19	<Flickerdart> Since it doesn't explain why everybody needs the crutch
17:20	<Forrest> well, not everyone needs one. The hypothetical interaction with arcane and divine implements could just be a focus
17:20	<Forrest> since not all magic needs implements
17:20	<Flickerdart> Unless this is Discworld and the Rite of Ashk'ente can be performed with a candle and 3ccs of mouse blood
17:20	<Forrest> @grishnax "magic works because magic works."
17:20	<Flickerdart> I've always liked the original idea - the foci and components are offerings made to spirits
17:20	<Forrest> and it works the way it does because people think it works that way
17:20	<Forrest> and that expectation has been built up over thousands of years
17:21	<Flickerdart> It works if you get it wrong because the spirit entity gets roughly what you want out of it
17:21	<Forrest> working its way into the way reality works as sort of a baseline
17:21	<Forrest> @Flickerdart could also work
17:21	<Flickerdart> But it can't talk to circuits
17:21	<Flickerdart> Because of soul things
17:21	<Forrest> really, the core of this idea is that magic is something inherent to the world
17:21	<Forrest> but it requires a person behind it
17:21	<Forrest> or a being of some sort
17:22	<Forrest> technology sorta does
17:22	<Forrest> but it can run on its own when you turn it on
17:22	<grishnax> Okay, so I think I have an idea
17:22	<grishnax> Of how this works
17:22	<Forrest> you don't need someone telling it what to do at all times, a clockwork machine will work until it runs down
17:22	<Forrest> while someone using magic to run a machine will need to be there to run that machine
17:23	<Forrest> the stuff about tech vs magic is mostly because I wanted an explanation for magic not interacting with tech
17:23	<grishnax> Ah
17:23	<grishnax> Okay
17:23	<grishnax> I can see it making sense
17:23	<Forrest> and magic as a semi-sentient force that cares more about intent than words could fit there
17:23	<grishnax> I kinda like that
17:23	<grishnax> It also works as both divine and arcane
17:23	<Forrest> and maybe it doesn't like technology
17:23	<grishnax> That way
17:24	<Forrest> or maybe it does
17:24	<Forrest> depends on how the worldbuilders want it to interact
17:24	<Forrest> the thing about guns could work in either
17:24	<Forrest> I just like the idea of the metaphysics of a world pushing towards melee + fantasy weapons
17:24	<Forrest> rather than guns being king
17:24	<grishnax> Yeah
17:24	<Forrest> and "everyone's got baseline magic, but a bullet doesn't, so a bullet has to deal damage by physics"
17:25	<Forrest> someone with a sword swings with their Character Level backing that blade's edge
17:25	<Forrest> someone shooting a bullet doesn't. All they're doing is aiming
17:25	<Flickerdart> It's funny because this is basically the problem with AI right now
17:25	<Forrest> the bullet's power doesn't increase
17:25	<Flickerdart> Natural Language Processing is really REALLY hard
17:25	<grishnax> huh
17:25	<Forrest> someone shooting a crossbow is in an odd middleground
17:25	<Flickerdart> So if you have any kind of bare minimum intelligence involved it becomes stupid easy
17:25	<Forrest> and maybe wood is just good at absorbing the power
17:26	<Forrest> @Flickerdart huh
17:26	<Forrest> interesting
17:26	<grishnax> Actually, in this case, the magic could be represented as proficiency bonuses to weapons
17:26	<grishnax> So guns don't get that bonus
17:26	<Forrest> ... no
17:26	<Flickerdart> I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I aim with my eye.
17:26	<Forrest> don't do that
17:26	<Forrest> this is a way to simplify guns by making them equivalent to crossbows and not needing anything but a refluff
17:26	<grishnax> Ah
17:26	<Forrest> "guns don't get proficiency" is "you don't use guns"
17:26	<Forrest> "ever"
17:26	<grishnax> Fair
17:26	<Forrest> "because it's shooting yourself in the foot"
17:27	<Flickerdart> He who shoots himself in the foot has forgotten the face of his father.
17:27	<Forrest> XD
17:27	<Forrest> I mean, "guns don't work at all" would be another valid way
17:27	<Flickerdart> Also http://www.toodarkpark.org/computers/humor/shoot-self-in-foot.html
17:27	<Forrest> "as an aesthetic choice, we don't want guns"
17:27	<Forrest> "nevermind that there's thing-punk tech"
17:28	Forrest shrugs
17:28	<Forrest> it's an idea, anyway
17:28	<grishnax> Possibly
17:28	<grishnax> We can run it by the other people
17:29	<grishnax> I do like the idea of having tech in there
17:29	<Forrest> I like the idea of tech being incompatible with magic on a construction level
17:30	<grishnax> And having magic separate from tech is an interesting way to do it
17:30	<Forrest> since most "tech vs magic" things go the way of "tech and magic can't be used together by the same person EVER neener neener"
17:30	<grishnax> Although I did have an idea that I feel should be shared
17:30	<Forrest> someone using magic to fly and guns to shoot is more fun than someone for whom guns just don't function
17:30	<Flickerdart> I kind of like the idea of technology being able to disrupt magic though
17:31	<grishnax> Anti-magic generators?
17:31	<Forrest> special sticks made of tech-punk
17:31	<Flickerdart> Like a supercomputer that proves the Pythagorean theorem a million times per second
17:31	<Forrest> you stab it into a wizard
17:31	<Forrest> and it does math
17:31	<Flickerdart> To remind physics that it works
17:31	<Forrest> lots and lots of math
17:31	<Forrest> yeah
17:31	<grishnax> That's amusing
17:31	<Forrest> presumably at higher levels of magic and tech it starts to spill over
17:31	<grishnax> They can
17:31	<Forrest> someone capable of casting Wish proooobably just overflows magic enough to break computers
17:31	<Flickerdart> I imagine it also goes both ways yeah
17:31	<Forrest> and the above computer probably fucks magic over
17:32	<Forrest> but normal things are mostly fine
17:32	<grishnax> But it takes extreme skill to do so
17:32	<Forrest> since their magic and tech levels don't interfere with the other unless mixed very closely
17:32	<Flickerdart> Near dragons, all the variables in your program become 2
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17:32	<Flickerdart> x = 3; echo x;
17:32	<Flickerdart> "2"
17:32	<Forrest> @Flickerdart all variables?
17:32	<Forrest> so i guess
17:32	<Forrest> you could say they're
17:32	<Forrest> magic numbers?
17:32	<Flickerdart> No.
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17:32	+++ ChanServ has given op to grishnax
17:33	<grishnax> blarg internet damn it
17:33	<Forrest> it just overwrites your variable names with 2
17:33	Flickerdart read that as ChanServ has given up
17:34	<grishnax> Btw, can someone pastebin this whole conversation at some point? I'm gonna have to leave to go home soon and won't have access to it.
17:34	<Forrest> I can't read this shootign yourself in the foot page while eating
17:34	<Forrest> I keep laughing and choking
17:36	<Forrest> >English
17:36	<Forrest> You put your foot in your mouth, then bite it off.
17:36	<Forrest> pffft
17:37	<Flickerdart> Forrest: You've never read that? Those are like the oldest programmer jokes
17:37	<Flickerdart> Those and the "how do you catch a lion in the desert" jokes
17:38	<Forrest> I have not
17:38	<Forrest> and these are hilarious
17:38	<Flickerdart> http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/catch-lion.html
17:39	<Flickerdart> There are LOADS of the lion ones
17:39	<Flickerdart> http://bjornsmaths.blogspot.com.es/2005/11/how-to-catch-lion-in-sahara-desert.html this one has more
17:40	<grishnax> Anyway, I gotta get going, I'll be back in a while
17:40	<grishnax> Someone pastebin the conversation for me
17:40	<grishnax> Or something
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