Kroytz - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
Hey, so it’s been a month since your stunt on :b:alkryia and Doormat got a little warning thing cuz apparently there needs to reach an agreement between us (since you bubble popped)? You never responded back in thread so I just assume things are like okay ..
Mir - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
well
you disagreed and i don't agree with your disagree so um
y...yea..
i mean i probably shoulda said so but i didnt know when you were gonna push it again
Kroytz - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
I want to rank my maps too yknow zz... of course I will push forward but I cannot rank simply if my concepts get discriminated. It’s almost like alien but not as extreme and I’d hate to have to wait months just explaining symmetry and natural progression or arguing about ideals
Mir - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
i mean it's not discrimination
in the sense that
"oh it's a kroytz map with symmetry therefore i must veto!"
its more like
the symmetry isn't executed to the point where i can agree with it going forward
Kroytz - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
>Overall I think the symmetry execution here doesn't work for a song of this bpm and definitely doesn't represent the song's actual emphasis. What the style you went with essentially does is force uncomfortable angles and high spacing on notes and phrases that don't deserve it and the map itself seems to forget its own emphasis at points
idk about you but this is pretty discriminative
Mir - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
how is it discriminative
Kroytz - Yesterday at 11:52 PM
if the bpm was lower it’d make sense suddenly? The songs repetitive 1,2,3s can’t ask for a different concept? uncomfortable angles and high spacing is what’d you end up getting for varying patterns in symmetry. I could get cleaner flows but then all the patterns would look more/less the same (and I did try to). For variance, I ended doing as I did so patterns wouldn’t be all the same cuz then that’s backwards.
I encourage you try to make ‘comfortable’ angles with symmetry in the editor and keep the patterns fresh each time :V you’ll find you can’t I’m telling ya
as far as emphasis things go, it’s not to be looked at ‘oh hey 3->1 is really big therefore 1 is the emphasized object’ when the theme of map is to individualize patterns. A lot of maps tend to do this too, it’s not inherently wrong to separate patterns with spacing..
Mir - Yesterday at 11:59 PM
i mean i kinda worded that a little wrong, it was more the execution of the concept doesn't really fit with the emphasis of the song, especially with the places that i pointed out
December 31, 2017
Mir - Today at 12:00 AM
like just cuz there's a different way of individualizing the patterns or whatnot doesn't mean the song's own emphasis should be as... skewed in the map as it is
if that makes sense
Kroytz - Today at 12:00 AM
now you’d have to elaborate what ‘the emphasis of the song’ means(edited)
Mir - Today at 12:00 AM
im not saying symmetry flat out doesnt work and if you think i meant that that isn't what i meant i meant more how it's done
yeah like there's the points in the mod that i did
i pointed out parts of the song where you emphasize that the song doesn't or vice versa iirc
uh there was also stuff about contrast
Kroytz - Today at 12:02 AM
yeah I’m rereading through these all
I believe my ideas are justified with things like natural progression
Mir - Today at 12:03 AM
the way the map is there is no progression it goes from 0-100 before the kiai starts and then it just stays that intensity
Kroytz - Today at 12:03 AM
I’m not one to compare maps but you ever see Monstrata’s Blue Encount map? Now that’s a lol map that ignores music for the sake of progression but nobody bats an eye xd
the kiai’s progression is just like
no sliders
that’s the contrast
idk why you’re so reluctant to dq mod tho..
er
the opposite of reluctant I mean
Mir - Today at 12:05 AM
oh you mean eager
Kroytz - Today at 12:05 AM
persistent I guess*
Mir - Today at 12:05 AM
i don't actively search to dq maps
contrary to what it looks like
like before i dq anything i always look at what other people say
i actually was going to let candyyyland go
Mir started a call.Today at 12:05 AM
Mir - Today at 12:05 AM
wtf
discord hotkey sry
Kroytz - Today at 12:06 AM
I remember having a 2-3 hour discussion with Sergio on snow drive and while he disagreed with most of my mapping choices he never bothered to dq mod any of it. It’s just like a hassle that can more/less go nowhere
Mir - Today at 12:06 AM
well sergio's different
he might be content to just sit by and let stuff get ranked
but like
if something gets ranked other people will compare to that thing
and be like
'well he did it so why can't I!'
and that thing usually isn't the best executed thing to a lot of people
or the mass consensus is "this map is so lol"
and that it shouldn't have been ranked to start with for certain reasons blah blah
Kroytz - Today at 12:07 AM
then you realize a lot of our ranked maps have strange stuff in them that anybody could still argue for to use xd
Mir - Today at 12:08 AM
my point is it's not targeted from my perspective like your map has to genuinely garner negative feedback for me to even consider dq-modding
and if the mapper is like "but players like it!" i can't really consider that a valid reason to let the map go
cuz what players like might not be the best for the map :/
Kroytz - Today at 12:09 AM
just like, point out something I said that you don’t agree with and why my idea/claim isn’t fair to use
Mir - Today at 12:11 AM
"This is the most obvious recurring theme that happens in the map and as to not repeat myself dozens of times I'm just going to say that the spacing is not a real emphasis and that patterns are to be seen individually rather than to compliment each other through general spacing principles."
im not going to say this isn't fair to use or anything
because
subjective
but you need to consider spacing has emphasis objectively
so if you put so much spacing it's going to feel like it has more emphasis than it should
maybe you don't intend for it to have spacing emphasis
then lower the spacing?
kinda like that is what i dont agree with
if you want the patterns to be individualized putting massive jumps to the first note of the pattern makes it stand out way more than the rest of the pattern
Kroytz - Today at 12:17 AM
spacing have emphasis if you give it emphasis.. saying that all spacing is objective emphasis, is objectifying your own ideology Mir. What will you say if someone used a star pattern and the supposed drums have the same spacing as the weaker beats? sorry you can’t do this because the spacing of the strong beat isn’t spaced higher than the weak beat, it’s incorrect. That’s just a poor way to look at mapping. Things need to be looked at in context. Having back and forth jumps? the spacing for the weak beat is no different than the strong beat so I suggest you change it. Like? You can’t be serious about this. Even anime songs with jump sequences will separate their jump patterns with spacing and NCs but you don’t look at ‘oh 8->1 is higher meaning 1 is more emphasized than the climax of the pattern 8 belonged to’ its really just to separate patterns and in some sense add a bit of visual thing to them
Mir - Today at 12:18 AM
well obviously i didn't think you'd take it so literally
ofc i mean in context
i literally reference the patterning in what i said o.O
Kroytz - Today at 12:19 AM
Yeah..
Mir - Today at 12:19 AM
maybe like if you dont intend for the patterns to have that much spacing emphasis lower the spacing but i essentially meant the same thing
ofc not all spacing down to the pixel has a certain emphasis that's kinda dumb llo
but with reference spacing does play a part in how emphasized a note feels relative to the notes around it
thats what i mean
im really bad at explaining things btw
disclaimer
Kroytz - Today at 12:21 AM
but you keep saying spacing emphasis as if I’m trying to emphasize a direct two-circle-relationship, rather than separating combos and patterns from each other via symmetry
Mir - Today at 12:22 AM
but the spacing creates that two circle relationship
okay wait
let me try to like
visually show you
Kroytz - Today at 12:22 AM
but the combos are separate..
Mir - Today at 12:23 AM
so you have this right just an example
https://i.imgur.com/HFYp5bK.jpg
the spacing between these notes https://i.imgur.com/gJ71Bp7.jpg
is waaay more than the spacing between the notes of the pattern itself
therefore it feels super emphasized
to the 1
if that spacing were lowered it wouldn't feel like such a massive jump
and 1 would lose that emphasis while still having the patterns be individual
if that makes sense
Kroytz - Today at 12:27 AM
I’m trying to comprehend
are you saying you don’t want me to do things in pairs because..?
if I had the sequence repeat 4 times it’d be incredibly dull and cannot perform symmetry to begin with
Mir - Today at 12:29 AM
im not saying that im saying the jump to 1 is not substantiated by anything significant in the song
Kroytz - Today at 12:29 AM
If I symmetry after every combo of 3 then it’d be crazy overdone
Mir - Today at 12:29 AM
so im trying so suggest a way to not be that spaced/emphasized
while keeping your individual pattern thing
the most basic way would just be lower spacing or something https://i.imgur.com/XnEhY3V.jpg
Kroytz - Today at 12:29 AM
ok, so at least I understand you on this
right
and then the issue is the overlaps so i avoid those
Mir - Today at 12:30 AM
yeah basically
Kroytz - Today at 12:31 AM
as I not allowed to do that
am*
Mir - Today at 12:31 AM
if you wanted even less emphasis on 1 (i guess that's kind of what we're trying to get here?) inverting those patterns would make the flow from 3 into 1 a lot more fluid
what do you mean you're not allowed to do
Kroytz - Today at 12:32 AM
to avoid overlaps, I separate them a bit higher because at the core, they’re to be individualized
Mir - Today at 12:32 AM
i mean im on ar 4
on ar 10 that overlap isn't gonna be visible(edited)
Kroytz - Today at 12:32 AM
regardless, I try to avoid overlap on previous measures
one measure in time is okay for me to overlap
but not a previous measure
Mir - Today at 12:33 AM
you can just move the 2s on 00:49:707 (1,2,1,2) - a bit then?
Kroytz - Today at 12:33 AM
where would they go lol
Mir - Today at 12:33 AM
you dont wanna overlap those?
all the others are overlapped
something like this idk
Kroytz - Today at 12:34 AM
and you think this is an improvement?
Mir - Today at 12:34 AM
yea
Kroytz - Today at 12:34 AM
sad
lol
oh my
yeah we’ll never get anywhere x/
I can’t imagine what’d happen to me if xexxar rejoined bng. dude talks memes with me but has some personal vendetta against my maps, I’d be single target veto and never rank anything more
Mir - Today at 12:35 AM
whatever way you want to view it the core issue is the spacing between the patterns is emphasizing the pattern difference but the song doesn't support such spacing cuz there's like barely any change on those notes
Kroytz - Today at 12:35 AM
it’s not a good feeling mir
Mir - Today at 12:35 AM
im just trying to figure out some way for it to work but if you don't see it as an improvement i can't help you further
Kroytz - Today at 12:35 AM
especially when the cases like this are just a clash of ideals and nothing inherently wrong with the mapping itself
Mir - Today at 12:36 AM
i mean whether it's wrong or not is your opinion
i think it doesn't work completely but that's my opinion lol
but i didn't dq mod it solely on my opinion
there's a lot of other people riding on the same issues i have
i just actually you know
said something(edited)
Kroytz - Today at 12:36 AM
inherently is the word here, things like offscreen or some weird out of place 3/4 slider or maybe a thing that was supposed to be ctrl-g etc
modding is to improve map, if what you see is improvement is something that’s out of character with the map, then I can’t call that improvement. It’s like if I said monstrata shouldn’t do his hex grid things because the song doesnt get captured enough, doing these things is better he can say that’s not improvement because it’s not in character with the map(edited)
Mir - Today at 12:38 AM
well yeah then improve it yourself if you dont like my suggestion, just fix the core issue that's all
maybe my suggestion isn't an improvement to you but you know what i have a problem with
it's a little unfair to ask me constantly for a solution without me even knowing if what im suggesting works for you :x
Kroytz - Today at 12:39 AM
that’s where we’re at an impasse because you don’t agree with the core theme of separating things with symmetry because ‘emphasis gets missed’ or whatever
Mir - Today at 12:39 AM
you can emphasize things with symmetry properly lets get that out of the way
the problem is the map doesn't actually do that in my opinion
that's the jist of why i don't agree with it
if you want me to tell you how i think it should be done that defeats the purpose of it being your map anyways i just pointed out the things that could be fixed and provided a sort of "example"
where you go from there I can't direct you, it's your map
Kroytz - Today at 12:41 AM
now I know what it feels to be probox
at least I didn’t apply worse changes
Mir - Today at 12:41 AM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
most of the changes probox made were his own and people did think the remapped ver is better
of candyland at least
Kroytz - Today at 12:42 AM
most disliked it afaik
Mir - Today at 12:42 AM
eh they only "liked it" cuz it looked cool
Kroytz - Today at 12:42 AM
Not a wrong reason to like something
Mir - Today at 12:42 AM
from a gameplay design/level design perspective the map imo wasn't fit for the ranked section
i mean that's the problem with vetos anyways i feel bad for doing it but like im not the only person who was against that map, ik for a fact some people in my division wanted to dq mod it but they weren't motivated to do it
Kroytz - Today at 12:44 AM
doesn’t mean you have to
Mir - Today at 12:44 AM
i just have to take the flak ykno
nah if i dont do it who will
Kroytz - Today at 12:44 AM
but for what purpose or benefit does it serve
unless you know you can help the map just doing it because nobody else will gets people nowhere
Mir - Today at 12:44 AM
it at least promotes discussion and the finding of a compromise
yes a veto/dq is a shitty thing
i know that, but like... what other way is there to do it
it's not like we can edit maps in qualified
Kroytz - Today at 12:45 AM
oh mir... I don’t know what to do with you man
Mir - Today at 12:45 AM
the feeling is mutual lol
Kroytz - Today at 12:46 AM
I think I’m just gonna find another bn to rebub or smth since doormat isn’t allowed to
Mir - Today at 12:46 AM
if you say so
Kroytz - Today at 12:46 AM
I get tired of arguing mapping ethics and ideals
Mir - Today at 12:46 AM
same, but that's essentially what mapping is
Kroytz - Today at 12:46 AM
it’s not but if you want to believe that then sure
Mir - Today at 12:46 AM
it sure seems to be
like 99% of things are subjective and can be argued out
it's just a matter of do more people agree or disagree