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sequel to nymag openmarriage article

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  1. http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/07/youre-a-male-feminist-in-an-open-marriage.html
  2.  
  3. sequel article to
  4. http://pastebin.com/xUh6Djef
  5.  
  6. Probably not AS interesting / triggering.
  7. NYMag will probably leave these very popular traffic driving articles up, but just in case:
  8.  
  9.  
  10. So, You’re a Male Feminist in an Open Marriage … ?
  11. By Stella Bugbee Follow @stellabugbee
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  21. Young couple holding hands
  22. Young couple holding hands Photo: Lane Oatey/Getty Images
  23. Recently, the Cut published a personal essay by a man who found that opening his marriage had sparked a new sense of feminist awareness. “Feminism always comes back to sex, even when we’re talking about everything else,” wrote Michael Sonmore. “The point is that it should be women who choose, not men — even the men they’re married to.”
  24.  
  25. We knew people might disagree with the ideas in the essay, but we were unprepared for the avalanche of responses the piece received. “Cuckolded New York Magazine Writer Thinks He Discovered the Meaning of Feminism,” blared Rush Limbaugh. Men’s-rights activists pounced, calling the writer deluded and emasculated. “Do you need further proof that modern feminism is nothing but some disgusting freakshow to give in to self indulgement [sic]?” read one representative comment of the more than 1,000 posted on the piece.
  26.  
  27. We decided to check back in with the author — and this time, we wanted to hear from his wife, too. We wanted to know what kinds of conversations they’d had since the article ran — had they read the comments? How did they feel about the anger their story had generated?
  28.  
  29. They generously agreed to continue the conversation.
  30.  
  31. Why do you guys think this story hit such a nerve for people?
  32. Michael: All I can say is I think the old models are breaking down and have not yet been replaced by new models. There are a lot of desires, there's a lot of behavior out there in our culture today that doesn't yet have a model or a name. The response to the article demonstrates the fear that people have when they're confronted with something new and they don't yet have words to describe it and a place to put it. And they also demonstrate, even from that fear, how much people want to cling to the old model even though those old models are not even relevant anymore. There's a lot of people in our culture asking, “What does family mean? What does marriage look like?”
  33. Lilly: I was surprised by the vitriol of the responses, maybe especially so from women more than the men. When the article first published, I read a handful of the comments. One of them contained this notion like, “this is why you should have a lot of sex before you get married,” and I was like, “Okay, so these people are all morons. ‘Oh, you should drink a lot of water before you go to the desert so then you won't be thirsty anymore.’”
  34.  
  35. It wasn't just the fact that you opened up your marriage that made people so mad, a lot of the commenters were these deeply offended men complaining that you were a stay-at-home dad, theorizing that's why she didn't want to have sex with you. They were so loaded with gender assumptions and deeply felt stereotypes about how traditional male-female parenting and marriage should work.
  36. Michael: The world needs to be less masculine, more caring, more nurturing and all those things that have been assigned to women as their sole purview. When you mentioned that the men's-rights movement picked up on it, I rolled my eyes. That such a thing exists is proof of everything I'm saying. Men's-rights movement? What is that, even?
  37. Lilly: It kind of reminds me of that joke on Mother's Day when the kids go, “When's Kid's Day?” And the moms all say, “Every day is Kid's Day!”
  38.  
  39. Related Stories
  40. What Open Marriage Taught One Man About Feminism
  41. What will you tell your kids about marriage?
  42. Lilly: Nothing in a tawdry way, broad strokes are fine. The concept of consensual non-monogamy is fine. I'm obviously careful, the same way I wouldn't talk to them about any other sort of topic that was too advanced for their age. I don't think kids have any idea about what their parents are doing regardless.
  43. Michael: Yeah, that's the other thing, to the extent that children are ever interested in their parents' sex lives, it might not be as big of a conversation as people think.
  44.  
  45. Lilly, did you see open marriage as a feminist issue or did you just see it as more of a personal issue?
  46. Lilly: I sort of consider myself a feminist, but I didn't approach this endeavor under the banner of feminism. It was more that as I got older and looked at how my thoughts and opinions about many things hold up to scrutiny, a lot of them didn't, in particular my strong opinions about sex, and its inherent meaning or value. You're led to believe many things about sex, through media or school — being a young woman in the '90s — you have all of this cultural baggage that seeps into your mind. Unless you actually take the time to look at why it's there, it can sort of just stay that way forever.
  47.  
  48. Do your friends or family know about your arrangement?
  49. Michael: Everybody knows about it except my parents. I have found most people to be overwhelmingly supportive of us. They were obviously a little shocked at first. They've been curious and interested and supportive of us as individuals, as a couple, and as a family. I didn't know how people would react, and to discover that my friends were as solid as I hoped they would be has been one of the best things about it.
  50.  
  51. Has it inspired anybody else you know to question or open up, or even just have conversations in their marriage?
  52. Lilly: I know that happened on at least one occasion. I know somebody that I shared the draft of the essay with in advance of its publication, who then basically used that to start a conversation with her significant other, that I understand went very well.  
  53.  
  54. Do you feel like you guys have advice to give people, or are you just sort of doing your thing?
  55. Lilly: I mean, it's not for everyone, so I wouldn't want to proselytize. We are fairly new to this, but I'm happy to offer any sort of tips or advice or my own feelings about it.
  56.  
  57. Michael: I would agree. There are a lot of situations that we haven't faced yet, there are a lot of things that could come up that haven't come up. Right now, it's still a very dynamic situation. The first time I re-read the essay was just earlier today, and I hadn't looked at it since it went up. None of this was ever done out of fear. And, you know, now we're at a place where it's like every day we volunteer anew — I'm still here, you're still here? Okay, good. By granting each other that individuality, I'm confident that I'll be able to look back when I die and say, “Hey, I did have a life-long partner and because I respected her as a partner and I didn't have to shackle her with the title to make her do certain things and I didn't have to give her a name in order to put her in a box to assure that she would fulfill certain roles and produce certain results.” Every day I'm confronting my wife's whole person, and she's doing the same to me, and in that way, that's why I think it's getting better all the time.
  58.  
  59. Lilly, how does it make you feel to hear that?
  60. Lilly: He's an incredible person, which is why I want to be married to him. I'm more impressed with him each day.
  61.  
  62.  
  63. This interview has been condensed and edited.
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  65. TAGS:Q&AOPEN MARRIAGELOVE AND WARMALE FEMINISTS
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  83. Newest | Oldest | Top Comments
  84. Blondie247 Aug 28, 2015
  85. How about hearing from the people they have relationships with and what kind of havouc they have been causing in their lives? I'm sure it could be pretty devastating. They both seem like they may have some sociopathic tendencies.
  86. FlagLikeReply
  87. zigzzagz Aug 7, 2015
  88. I call bull here. This and the previous "Michael Sonmore" article are likely fictional troll stories posted for no other reason than to bait a response so they can then point and say what evil misogynists we all are.  Still, I'll add my voice just for the hell of it. Feminism has had no real purpose since 1920 when women got the vote. Feminism today is nothing more than a sickness and a false ideology. It has nothing whatsoever to do with equality and it has been exposed as such. Once you have a grasp of the holes and faulty logic used, and learn of the methods used to get their skewed trumped up statistics (a la CDC poll) it can easily be deconstructed by even high school kids as you can see by the hundred on youtube. This is why women are leaving it, particularly radical feminism, like fleas off of a dead dog.  I think in not so many years we will be looking back and laughing about the days when people were pushing the "rape culture" idea, and the patriarchy and how scary close they got before everyone finally caught on.
  89. FlagLikeReply
  90. Joyintorah18 Jul 31, 2015
  91. So happy to see a man and a woman breaking the oppressive standards of patriarchal marriage where the wife becomes an object to control sexually and otherwise. Kudos for having the guts to openly tell your story. I think many couples would benefit from this style of relationship. There's nothing in our lives that mandates monogamy. That's a patriarchal idea of control over women. Having sex with other people is exciting and fun. No reason why it can't be done in a marriage. Good luck to both of you and I hope you do more interviews and let us know how you are, and also to piss off the men's rights weirdos who've gone batshit insane and are here again on this comment section to enforce patriarchy.
  92. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  93. richard.snoggins Aug 3, 2015
  94. @Joyintorah18 Keep talking like that and we may actually start this Patriarchy thing you speak of.
  95. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  96. jabuchan Jul 29, 2015
  97. Why be so harsh in your interview? I'm sure there are some softballs you could give your subject just to balance the article a little and avoid coming off as overly aggressive.
  98. FlagLikeReply
  99. TheHappyWittol Aug 3, 2015
  100. @jabuchan
  101. Hilarious!
  102. FlagLikeReply
  103. gary.costanza Jul 29, 2015
  104. Are all those people who support your arrangement sleeping with Lilly?
  105. How many different partners is she allowed, er, sorry, does she want? Hows the STD situation?
  106. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  107. gary.costanza Jul 29, 2015
  108. I can't leave it alone.
  109. Kids don't want to hear about their parents sex life because it's USUALLY boring (monogamous), but man I'd like to know if my mom or dad was a cheating A**hole.
  110. FlagLikeReply
  111. gary.costanza Jul 29, 2015
  112. Well, we DO discuss NORMAL marriage with children because there's nothing to hide, so we say 'two people who love each other forsake all others', as opposed to 'two people who love each other somewhat enough to have kids with no commitment.' Why don't you tell the kids about the "new model" (really the old model of what not to do) and tell them 'do what you want , when you want.'
  113. FlagLikeReply
  114. gary.costanza Jul 29, 2015
  115. This is nothing new, it's had many names over the centuries, do these two think they've discovered something? It's called philandering, cheating, swinging, cuckolding, disrespecting, etc. Why are they even married?
  116. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  117. freemarketrobot Jul 29, 2015
  118. I guess you're trolling for more clicks by lumping in critics of the article with Rush Limbaugh and MRA activists.  What actually "touched a nerve" for me about the article was that the author seemed to have been pushed into something he didn't really want to begin with under the guise of feminism -- indeed, the author's wife decided to raise the topic with her husband only after she had started something with another man.  This is not my understanding of how a respectful polyamorous relationship is supposed to work, and it's being sold to us as feminism.  The author's conception of feminism seems to be "I need to work on being a better doormat."
  119. FlagLike3 people like this.Reply
  120. dee.belle Jul 29, 2015
  121. to continue to say the reason this couple is in an open relationship is because of feminism is absolutely ridiculous. Michael made it clear in his first essay that he was uncomfortable with the idea from the start, and he only agreed after Lilly pushed him to believe her reasoning for sleeping with other men was because being in a marriage automatically made her oppressed and objectified. feminism is just the excuse his wife used and the excuse Michael gave himself for agreeing to this. because if he or Lilly truly believed that a marriage entitles your body to another being, than they would agree that it also entitles your love, commitment, and presence. if she can share her body in the name of feminism, who's to say she can't share these other aspects? i wonder if Michael will continue to agree with this plan if she strays further and decides to love another man enough to marry him too. or perhaps have children with someone else, or even move into a house with another man to share her time and feelings with him so as not to be "oppressed" by Michael. Feminism is more than sex, and if you want to support your wife in this way, then be prepared to share more than just her body with another man.
  122. FlagLike3 people like this.Reply
  123. PuckShack Jul 29, 2015
  124. I really could care less about what responsible people do in the bedroom. That's their business. Luckily I live in Canada where there is more separation between church and state.
  125.  
  126. What bothered me most about the original article was the part where the husband became worried when his wife didn't check in while on a date and ended up sleeping over. He then went further to say that he did not know where she was or who she was with. For a couple with two children that is beyond irresponsible and these two need to stop navel gazing and think about their responsibilities to their 2 kids.
  127. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  128. RKG Jul 29, 2015
  129. @PuckShack I know lots of people in open marriages with kids, and they would never, ever be out of the loop like this when it comes to their children. They would also never, ever leave their spouse wondering or skip a check-in. This is the worst couple to represent open marriages.
  130. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  131. ParsonJim Jul 29, 2015
  132. So wonderful to see a marriage where the oppressive bonds of Patriarchy are being broken. This man is a brave Cuckold Warrior, pushing boundaries, exploring new vistas and forging new territory in the ever changing landscape that is modern marriage today.
  133.  
  134. Thank you NY Magazine for bringing this important article to light.  Much to study here and much wisdom to be gleaned from his story
  135. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  136. ifyouwearthatvelvetdress Jul 29, 2015
  137. interesting that the cut decides to screen comments on this topic - ostensibly to protect a man - while i've seen dozens of hateful comments on articles written by, and about women of colour on this site that get posted without issue.
  138. FlagLike4 people like this.Reply
  139. ReddFields Jul 29, 2015
  140. Oh and the most scathing thing I've read about the original article came from Jezebel. You know that REALLY left feminist website.
  141. FlagLikeReply
  142. DCSpence Jul 29, 2015
  143. Wow, some hard-hitting questions in there, NY mag. Basically: How do you feel about all these awful people who made fun of you?
  144. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  145. ReddFields Jul 29, 2015
  146. My problem with this article has nothing to do with feminism, and this is coming from someone who gets accused of being an MRA all the time.
  147.  
  148. My problem, and EVERY single MRA that I do know, and I know every single big name MRA on the planet, is that this was an article about an abusive relationship. He can use a feminism angle to justify his feelings, but at the end of the day this relationship is going to implode when he gets the courage to speak his mind. I'll have to point out that consensual sexual relationships within and outside of marriage I have no problems with. As long as everyone's willing to accept the consequences of those actions more power to them.
  149.  
  150. This article is not helping the original post. At all. All it did was reinforce the feelings that everyone already had. There was no one that was fence sitting about the original article.
  151.  
  152. The problem isn't with feminism in this article, the problem was that this man is using some convoluted idea of what feminism is supposed to be to cushion his heartbreak over his spouse's infidelity.
  153.  
  154. She doesn't swing, this marriage isn't open. He's just not being honest with himself or her, and I'm guessing he doesn't feel like he's safe to disagree with the woman who will take all the money, the house, and the kids away from him if he disagrees.
  155. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  156. lloydgush Jul 29, 2015
  157. @ReddFields I doubt he's a victim. I doubt he doesn't "eat out" too.
  158. What pisses me off is that he's a leach and he justifies that by saying "she sleeps out", like many women I knew, who knew their husbands cheated, cheated too and justifying being a leach because their husbands could sleep around.
  159. And if she divorces him? Well, he can work as he should, as everyone who can should.
  160. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  161. Cordovan Jul 30, 2015
  162. @lloydgush @ReddFields You doubt he doesn't "eat out" too? Seriously? A doormat like him has no chance with strange women, since they aren't benefitting from the stability and childcare that he offers his wife, in return for... hell if I know what he actually gets out of that relationship in return.
  163. She pushed him to allow her to cheat when he was uncomfortable with the proposition, this relationship is abusive as all hell, and he IS a victim.
  164. FlagLikeReply
  165. Ginarbe Jul 29, 2015
  166. I don't agree that "ownership, objectification, and entitlement" to a body is exquisitely a male/patriarchal trait. I myself would not be accepting of my significant other sleeping around.
  167. Clearly, you have the right of having your relationship the way you want it, but I wouldn't label it "feminist" per se. Repeating what one commenter pointed out: the very notion of a husband "letting" the wife do something is un-feminist.
  168. I understand the husband presents it as this great revelation for himself in regards to his wife and her body, and I'm happy for him, but it clearly shows that him having a "revelation" over the discovery that his wife has agency over her body and sexuality points to a very narrow prior-held concept that should be worrying. The original article showed a lifestyle choice, I think the article should have focused instead on "how the transition to polygamy made me expand my understanding on feminism" instead of "letting my wife sleep around made me expand my understanding on feminism", because clearly he has the green light to sleep around with multiple people as well. The choice of the words for the title opened up the gates for angry commenters who only read the headline and/or are looking for any opportunity to attack feminism. But then again, maybe NY Magazine specifically sculpted the title in order to trigger more traffic. If so, well-played, NY Magazine, well-played....
  169. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  170. lolwutt Jul 28, 2015
  171. On a more serious note though, it's clear as day that she manipulated you into this. You were pretty firmly against this every step of the way, and she kept pushing. That fact alone is a clear sign that she does not respect your feelings or wishes (you know, the ones you both agreed to when you took your vows) and cares only about her own urges. Take this excerpt from your previous piece:
  172.  
  173. "I don’t want her to fall in love with anyone else, and every time she goes on a date, I confront the possibility that she might. It happened at the beginning: The first person she dated after we opened up fell hard in love with her, and my wife, overwhelmed by his ardor, tried to love him back. Watching it happen, I was confused, angry, and terrified that she wanted to leave me. She assured me she didn’t, and whatever feelings she had for him didn’t lessen what she felt for me. Believing her then was the ultimate trust exercise. We survived because eventually I did believe her, and also because I learned to trust myself."
  174.  
  175. This reads like an abuse victim spinning the rationalization wheel to try to excuse their partner's egregious behavior. You weren't too jazzed about her having sex with other people, and now she's oh so helplessly falling in love with someone, while you're "confused, angry, and terrified"? When did you two decide it was okay for her to fall in love with someone else? Oh, right, you didn't. She is playing the Empowered Woman Fighting Against Society's Oppression while trampling your feelings and needs-- and then waving the feminism white flag to keep you guilted into this toxic situation. Stop placing your feelings on the back burner! If this were a man treating his wife this way this would no doubt be looked at as emotional abuse. Your feelings of confusion, anger, and jealousy are all very valid and a completely normal response to the situation you've been bullied into.
  176.  
  177. The backlash was there because you're not fooling anyone. Not even quite yourself, it seems. Listen, you clearly care deeply about your wife and want to please her, but jesus christ, these all read like a cry for help.
  178. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  179. lolwutt Jul 28, 2015
  180. LOL she just compared your marriage to being dehydrated in a desert. dude, quit with the rationalization. when the entire internet (feminists and MRAs alike) agree that you're being played, you're being played.
  181. FlagLike4 people like this.Reply
  182. judithtp60 Jul 28, 2015
  183. Very sad.  Not in the range of normal
  184. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  185. TheHappyWittol Jul 29, 2015
  186. @judithtp60: "Very sad. Not in the range of normal."
  187. >
  188. How very cryptic. Do you mean their relationship is sad because it is not in the range of the normal? Are you implying that "normal" equals "good," or "right." Because I would have to take issue with both statements.
  189. >
  190. There is nothing wrong with falling outside the range of the conventional. Yes, you can be "not normal" in a bad way, like Charles Manson. But you can also be "not normal" in a good way, like Gandhi. Using "not normal" as a criticism is like pitching a car based on it being "the best selling;" irrelevant flim-flam.
  191. >
  192. I'm also unclear about what you find "sad." If it is the poor quality f the original essay, I totally agree. If it is the fact that they have an open marriage, I really don't. What is inherenetly sad about that? If they are happy in it, who does it hurt? You? Me? How does that work? "These people have a happy, loving marriage that gives them strength and makes them feel positive about themselves and optimistic about life. How very sad." What?
  193. >
  194. Personally, I think his essay is rubbish and that leaves me suspecting he is not a deep intellect. Others suspect that he is also being intellectually and emotionally dishonest with himself: That he doesn't really believe the things he says. IF that is the case, yes it is sad (though almost universally common). But that is a VERY big IF, and a very bold speculation when none of us know him or anything about him but the one essay and the short drive-by interview above.
  195. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  196. JessAK Jul 29, 2015
  197. @judithtp60 Haven't you heard about the "new normal" tho?
  198.  
  199. I'm with you, what this is, is defining deviancy down.
  200. FlagLikeReply
  201. Generic_New_Yorker Jul 28, 2015
  202. I still fail to understand, after 2 articles on these people, how their open marriage has anything to do with Feminism?
  203.  
  204. I can understand that some people would want multiple sexual partners whilst married but I think that the author is confusing a broader subject on women's rights with the complications of monogamy.
  205.  
  206. FlagLike9 people like this.Reply
  207. SmellyDoofus Jul 28, 2015
  208. @Generic_New_Yorker Because keeping the wife home to only bang the husband and not letting her roam free would be un-feminist.  Even the way I write that- where the husband "lets" her do something is un-feminist.  
  209. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  210. Paw Jul 28, 2015
  211. So why bother with a formal marriage at all? If they're spiritually committed to each other but want sexual freedom, one sided or otherwise, the license and what it implies loses meaning. What's the point? Why not just live together? Saves a lot of money on divorce attorneys...
  212. FlagLikeReply
  213. marioferpay Jul 29, 2015
  214. For the children, think of the children. They keep the arrangement, and legally they have benefits and it's easier to manage the kids in the eyes of the law. I think
  215. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  216. marvy1 Jul 28, 2015
  217. @Generic_New_Yorker  It sounds like it's the only way he can cope with what's happening.
  218. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  219. TheHappyWittol Jul 29, 2015
  220. @Generic_New_Yorker
  221. Perfectly put and the main thing that has provoked so much headscratching and crankyness about the original article. What I don't understand is why the interviewer didn't questions on this very point.
  222. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  223. mia.leimkuhler STAFFEDITORS' PICK
  224. Jul 28, 2015
  225. Hello, everyone: All comments will be screened by our community manager. Once your comment is approved, it will appear in the comments section of this post. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
  226. LikeReply
  227. davifranci Jul 28, 2015
  228. @mia.leimkuhler that explain why my howdy to the Editor was pended .
  229. as always ,i do understand and i shall cooperate
  230. FlagLikeReply
  231. Ironman92 Jul 28, 2015
  232. @mia.leimkuhler I understand the screening, but giving yourself an editors' pick THIS SHALL NOT STAND!
  233. FlagLike4 people like this.Reply
  234. ellaceron STAFFSTAFFJul 28, 2015
  235. @Ironman92 @mia.leimkuhler don't worry, I'm the one who picked it ;)
  236. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  237. davifranci Jul 28, 2015
  238. i was wondering the other day if Stella Bugee still worked hereh.
  239. hi , Stella
  240. back to the blab . . .
  241. FlagLikeReply
  242. sunnydlita Jul 28, 2015
  243. Huge missed opportunities with this follow-up. All softball questions.
  244. FlagLike9 people like this.Reply
  245. Breisssss Jul 28, 2015
  246. Here's my issue with open relationships/polyamory-- I respect your decision to live your life in whatever way you see fit, but I have to wonder what the husband’s response would be if his wife said “I’ve changed my mind. I just want to have sex with you and no one else.” I think he would be delighted. I highly doubt his response would be “No Honey, keep sleeping with strange men, it’s a better fit for us.”
  247.  
  248. If you’re really happy, then fine, that’s just fine. But if you could have your partner just to yourself, would that be your preference? And if it is your preference, are you really that happy with the current situation?
  249. FlagLike6 people like this.Reply
  250. TheHappyWittol Jul 29, 2015
  251. You may highly doubt it, but based on what? After all, he is also sleeping around. Maybe if she said that, his reaction would be something more like: "OK, but what about me, I really enjoy my times with Susan and Karen..."
  252. The core of your assumption is that, since she was the one who first proposed the arrangement, he remains a reluctant participant. That just flatly contradicts the central point of his essay - that he has grown to not only accept it, but embrace it and now thinks it is the best thing.
  253. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  254. Breisssss Jul 30, 2015
  255. Yeah but that's just it, I don't believe that he believes that it's the best thing (and I don't have to). It's been commented on down thread how defeated the poor guy sounds. I really think that if she wanted him and him alone, he would be thrilled.
  256. FlagLikeReply
  257. TheHappyWittol Aug 3, 2015
  258. @Breisssss
  259. You don't have to believe anything.  But you do have to acknowledge that you are flatly saying that you don't believe his explicit words, either because you think he is lying or you think he is kidding himself.  (I think he may be kidding himself.)
  260.  
  261. Reading between the lines is a good thing, but you always need to keep some space for the possibility that what you are seeing isn't the greater truth of the writer, but rather a projection of your own fears.
  262.  
  263. FlagLikeReply
  264. veritas723 Jul 28, 2015
  265. oof.   well.  seeing as i had this same argument with 3 different people.  I'll play the devil's advocate role for this poor schmuck and his feminist angle.  
  266.  
  267. first.  the same people raging against the article touting feminism are often times the same people using feminism as a cheap smoke screen to heap guilt on this couples sexual/relationship decisions.   --you rarely see any discussion about feminism in anyone bashing this man/couple
  268.  
  269. to me.  the entire story was like 90% relationship issue.  10% this guy had a revelation thinly based on feminist concepts that allowed that other 90% of relationship personal growth to occur.
  270.  
  271.  
  272. --put simply.   the fight against ownership, objectification, and entitlement to a woman's body,  is an aspect of feminism.  with these elements in effect a woman can not have agency.
  273.  
  274. the man in this story, realized that a lot about what initially worried him about an open relationship was directly connected to the social norms of relationships where ownership and entitlement of his wife's body were sacrosanct and expected.  
  275.  
  276. giving up those norms,  ...in effect giving up his idea of control and entitlement to his wife's body, allowed him to come to terms with the idea his wife had desires to explore other sexual partners and not have that be something he took as an affront to his manhood.  
  277.  
  278. this is to me... the core aspect or feminist angle to this story.   it's very poorly defined,  and i think the man in this story, is leaning on the branding of feminism way to hard to justified ...what in effect is simply a lifestyle choice.    
  279.  
  280. it's click bait.   it was an unnecessary hornets nest to kick,  for simply saying.  i give no f---cks for what's normal in a relationship.  and i do find it sexy when my wife gets pleasure outside our bedroom.   done and done.  
  281.  
  282.  
  283. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  284. TheHappyWittol Jul 28, 2015
  285. SO, two things:
  286. 1. One of the bigggest strains of criticism of the article was of the way it conflated feminism with what appeared to simply be one couples personal arrangments. So why doesn't the interviewer ask about this? Instead we get a kind of off-handed suggestion that not even his wife wife buys his huge "feminism" overreach. But the interviewer doesn't even follow that up!(?)
  287. 2. They say "I mean its not for everyone, so I wouldn't want to proselytize," but another big reason the article got blowback was that it did exactly that. The man all but said that you weren't really a feminist until and unless you embraced open marriage. If that isn't what he intended to say then, frankly, he just a REALLY bad writer.
  288. FlagLike13 people like this.Reply
  289. Changi123 Jul 28, 2015
  290. @TheHappyWittol  I'm betting the feminist angle was a "hook" recommended to the author by the editors at The Cut. Could be wrong. Maybe the author came up with it himself. But you have to admit that "weak husband capitulates to wife's demand for an open marriage" would have been a really boring headline.
  291. FlagLike3 people like this.Reply
  292. cheesyblasters Jul 28, 2015
  293. @TheHappyWittol Perfectly said.
  294. FlagLike3 people like this.Reply
  295. Changi123 Jul 28, 2015
  296. There are dozens of reasons why the situation described in the open marriage article was pretty deplorable, and one does not have to be a fan of Rush L. to recognize them. Start with the fact that the author considers his current role as childcare provider drudgery. Add to that the fact his wife essentially laid down an ultimatum. When the cash earning, sexually aggressive partner in a marriage says "I want this" there's an implicit threat that she (or he) will get it with or without the blessing of the spouse.
  297.  
  298. For those comments readers considering bringing this topic up with your own spouse, take a moment to consider what you have - the relationship you've invested in over the years - and whether it's worth risking that for the prospect of a few anonymous sexual exploits.
  299.  
  300. If you conclude that it's not really worth the risk, then don't even bring it up. It's going to come across to your spouse as a threat (unless you *know* that he or she is considering the same thing).  
  301. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  302. MJK121 Jul 29, 2015
  303. @Changi123 Which is why many fail to see what this has to do with feminism. It just sounds like a reversal of the power dynamics. He was afraid of losing her and she pretty much forced his hand. I think a lot of people had legitimate questions for the two of them but the interviewer lumped everyone together with Rush Limbaugh and Men's Rights Activists and lobbed softball questions about how anyone who disagreed "were so loaded with gender assumptions and deeply felt stereotypes about how traditional male-female parenting and marriage should work"
  304. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  305. marysoul Jul 28, 2015
  306. I still think the essay had nothing to do with feminism, at least not in the sense that his situation is a byproduct of a feminist set of mind.
  307. I'm a adult woman, independent? yes, feminist? yes, liberal? yes! YET I still can't sympathize with the narrative or the point he was trying to portrait.
  308. I have no issues with what an adult couple decides to do with their lives as long as anybody is getting hurt... and that was the issue for me!
  309. Maybe it wasn't his intention, but the facts and feelings he described in the article last week made feel incredibly sad for him.
  310. The article portrayed a melancholic, meek, frustrated person, that was trying to convince himself that he was ok with what was happening... and that has nothing to do gender, no matter if it was a man or woman telling me the same story, I would still think "god, you are in an abusive relationship, you are definitely getting the worse of the situation, speak up!!".
  311. I'm sorry, maybe that wasn't the idea he was trying to convey, but it is how it made me feel. Furthermore, this followup did not change my opinion.
  312. FlagLike13 people like this.Reply
  313. evilyngarnett Jul 28, 2015
  314. @marysoul
  315. I agree.   My only hope, as in my post, that this is what actually gets him going.  There are people who are aroused by being humiliated, and being voyeurs on their own humiliation.  I know that sounds extreme, but perhaps that is what, in a sexual or ---more likely---psychological sense, trips his trigger.  I hope so at any rate.
  316. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  317. marysoul Jul 28, 2015
  318. @evilyngarnett @marysoul that's the thing! even if you try to think like that, hey, maybe the situation validates him or empowers him somehow, he is not portraying that, I don't get that feeling from him, at all! By the way, I did hope for the same, that all this talk made him rethink at least what he was communicating on the article, but sadly, that may never happen...
  319. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  320. TheHappyWittol Jul 29, 2015
  321. Actually, I am one of those people. I don't know the author, obviously, but based on what he wrote about his marraige and the interiew above, I would be quite surprised if he was a fellow fetishist in this regard.
  322. FlagLikeReply
  323. Changi123 Jul 28, 2015
  324. @marysoul  Well spoken, marysoul. I come from a different place on the political spectrum, but find myself nodding my head at your comments.
  325. FlagLike1 person likes this.Reply
  326. crabtreeacres Jul 28, 2015
  327. @marysoul  you hit it. this just doesn't seem to have been written by a happy guy. in the article and this follow-up piece, he keeps trying to tie his personal decision - which appears to have been borne of resignation and anxiety instead of a free and informed choice -  to something bigger than his marriage, be it feminism or pushing the envelope of what marriage means. it's as if he has to justify himself somehow b/c he can't make sense of the bargain he has made.
  328.  
  329. and here, he's accusing his detractors of being afraid to embrace something new when really he's the one who is telegraphing his fear of losing his wife and family if he doesn't capitulate to her desires. we could all be wrong, of course, and God bless them both, but wow, what a miscommunication.
  330.  
  331.  
  332. FlagLike7 people like this.Reply
  333. cubancigar11 Jul 30, 2015
  334. @marysoul Why you keep using 'HIM' as your punching bag? "... the point he was trying to portrait." "... his intentions"
  335.  
  336. This really gets to my nerve. You cannot dare to attack the abuser here as a woman - consistently skirting around the abuser's gender, when both husband and wife confess that it was HER idea to use feminism to get what she wants and he was forced to buy it because for him feminism is a trump card, and anything anti-feminism will make him anti-female.
  337. FlagLikeReply
  338. marysoul Jul 30, 2015
  339. @cubancigar11 @marysoul First of all it is my personal opinion, second I'm not forcing anybody to agree with me, third I'm not attacking those that have a different view of the subject than me, for whatever reason. But, thank you for sharing.
  340. FlagLikeReply
  341. papadaki Jul 28, 2015
  342. Lilly sounds like a flakey idiot...so I have to take back any assumption that she was a manipulative creep. They're both just spineless weirds.
  343. FlagLikeReply
  344. DustedNonbeliever Jul 28, 2015
  345. Many of the people who took issue with the original article did so from a feminist, sex-positive perspective. This follow-up heavily implies that the only people who disagreed with Mr. Sonmore's arguments were men's rights activists and Limbaugh's dittoheads.
  346.  
  347. Not very honest, The Cut. Not very reflective.
  348. FlagLike23 people like this.Reply
  349. SmellyDoofus Jul 28, 2015
  350. If this was just what this couple chose to do, nobody would care.  What gets the panties in a bunch is the idea that this has anything to do with feminism.  There's nothing feminist about this, nor is there something un-feminist or repressive about mutual monogamy.  
  351. FlagLike15 people like this.Reply
  352. ifyouwearthatvelvetdress Jul 28, 2015
  353. I think the most interesting, and perhaps telling thing, is that he came at this from some kind of feminist perspective [or at least what he sees as such, because I don't think it is particularly feminist and I'm more than a bit perturbed that he has taken the banner of feminist and waved it around and he is 'glad' his wife has a hot story about sleeping with someone else because he is a feminist??] while she says "I sort of consider myself a feminist". It is like he needs something bigger, political, to construct this whole thing around and make it work for him. His reasoning what pretty flimsy to begin with, but there are even more cracks with the premise of this being a feminist endeavor when she says she only 'sorta' considers herself one.
  354. FlagLike10 people like this.Reply
  355. ifyouwearthatvelvetdress Jul 28, 2015
  356. i actually think he has done a huge disservice to feminism by painting in into his narrative. so that actually makes this entire thing pretty anti feminist, because here we have a man using a women's movement to stand on and explain his choices, while drawing negative attention to his own perverted version of this women's movement.
  357. FlagLike16 people like this.Reply
  358. cheesyblasters Jul 28, 2015
  359. "I sort of consider myself a feminist," she says. So this essay "sparked a new sense of feminist awareness," just not in his wife?
  360. FlagLike5 people like this.Reply
  361. veritas723 Jul 28, 2015
  362. no wonder the previous article became a sh!tstorm of mens rights morons.  rush limbaugh got all hopped up on Oxy and illegal Viagra scripts and put the word out.  
  363. FlagLike2 people like this.Reply
  364. jenninnyc Jul 28, 2015
  365.  I mean, it's not for everyone, so I wouldn't want to proselytize.
  366.  
  367. This is exactly what I would say to this couple about straight-up, nothing-to-see-here-yet-somehow-still-incredibly-fulfilling monogamy.  Feminism is about being true to who you are -- whatever that may be.  
  368. FlagLike7 people like this.Reply
  369. RKG Jul 29, 2015
  370. @jenninnyc Well, unless you a misogynistic rapist. I think feminism would frown on that.
  371. FlagLikeReply
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