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Jamie DeWolf interview on Sup Doc

a guest Nov 7th, 2015 442 Never
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  1. Jamie DeWolf Interview - Nov. 2015
  2.  
  3. Sup Doc Ep 16: Monday, November 2nd 2015
  4.  
  5. http://www.pacoromane.com/sup-doc-e...ogy-great-grandson-l-ron-hubbard-jamie-dewolf
  6.  
  7. Just a quick once-though and a quick spell check. It is far from perfect, but at least the back of the task is broken for the next person.
  8.  
  9. Part 1:
  10.  
  11. SUPDOC: Hey, you're listening to Sup Doc, a podcast about documentary films. I'm Paco Romane. And I'm George Chen. And in this episode we caught up with a friend, comedian, producer, Jamie DeWolf to talk about Going Clear. Jamie is the great grandson of L Ron Hubbard, and there is no better guest we could get, short of getting Miscavige, there is no better guest we could get.
  12.  
  13. Going clear is going to be available online at iTunes and netflix a couple of days after this episode airs. So make sure you check that out if you haven't already, because this talk with Jamie is really great. And he said that we might actually be followed by $cientologists after this, which would be amazing. If you're a $cientologist, please give us a great review on iTunes for this podcast. And now, Jamie DeWolf, everyone.
  14.  
  15. SUPDOC: Hi Jamie.
  16.  
  17. DEWOLF: Hi.
  18.  
  19. SUPDOC: Welcome to Sup Doc. What's up doc? Thanks for joining us. Thanks for doing this.
  20.  
  21. DEWOLF: Thanks guys.
  22.  
  23. SUPDOC: Is your house bugged?
  24.  
  25. DEWOLF: Aah, no. Cockroaches only.
  26.  
  27. SUPDOC: Okay, good. That's a certain kind of bug....
  28.  
  29. SUPDOC: So, we're here in Oakland with Jamie DeWolf. You're kind of like... you've been in Oakland for a long time, right? I think you are very synonymous with Oakland.
  30.  
  31. DEWOLF: Synonymous with Oakland. (laughs)
  32.  
  33. SUPDOC: Synonymous? Is that... well at least the show is, Tourette’s (without regrets) is.
  34.  
  35. DEWOLF: Yeah. I think at this point. Ummm, I've been in Oakland, god, it must be like 10 years. I came from the, the glorious palaces of Vallejo before that. It was a big.. Sadly at the time it was a big step up. And that's where Tourette’s started, in Vallejo and Benicia and we ended up moving to Oakland.
  36.  
  37. DEWOLF: And I've been out here and I remember thinking when I moved into Oakland, and I had some friends moving to the city, and I was like "god this is so expensive and for what?" You know? Now the irony as everyone is flocking and migrating to Oakland. They're all like, "How scary is it?" And I'm like, "Fuck you. I've been living here 10 years." You know what I mean? "I'm alright. Like, come on out."
  38.  
  39. SUPDOC: The reason that we had you on (this show) is... you've obviously seen Going Clear.
  40.  
  41. DEWOLF: Yes. (laughs) Yes.
  42.  
  43. SUPDOC: Do you wanna explain your reaction?
  44.  
  45. DEWOLF: What I love is that people will be like, "Have you seen it?" And I'm like, "Yes. Yes I've seen it." (laughs)
  46.  
  47. SUPDOC: Well you're probably familiar with it, but I didn't realize it was a book first.
  48.  
  49. DEWOLF: Right.
  50.  
  51. SUPDOC: And they made the movie based on the book.
  52.  
  53. DEWOLF: Right. What's hilarious is, and this is sort of a strange haunting fact, is that I somehow missed an email from Lawrence Wright.
  54.  
  55. SUPDOC: Oh.
  56.  
  57. DEWOLF: I was literally... I only realized that in the last.. I think it was maybe in the last 6 months.
  58.  
  59. SUPDOC: So you should have been in this thing.
  60.  
  61. DEWOLF: Well, I mean I was looking for some other shit. And then this email popped up from Lawrence Wright.
  62.  
  63. SUPDOC: Oh. Wow.
  64.  
  65. DEWOLF: And he was like, "Hey, I'm working on this book."
  66.  
  67. SUPDOC: Oh.
  68.  
  69. SUPDOC: Can you explain your lineage for us? You were doing it pre recording but I'd love to have the listener's hear.
  70.  
  71. DEWOLF: Yeah. So, L Ron Hubbard is my great grandfather, on my mother's side. And then L Ron Hubbard junior was my grandfather. His (LRH's) first child. And then my grandfather's first child was my mom. And then I was the first child of all the cousins and what not. And I think that in a way it’s kind of why I got handed the strange mantle of being the one poking and prodding and asking questions early on. Because I think a lot of my aunts and uncles looked at me like this little redhead loudmouth weirdo kid who was always typing and writing to himself, and they are like, "Oh fuck. Here we goes again." You know what I mean?
  72.  
  73. DEWOLF: I knew who L Ron was since I was really young. I had, you know, I had his mission earth books and things like that. And I was really proud of that fact. I had no idea though that he was a cult leader. (laughs)
  74.  
  75. SUPDOC: You thought he was just a sci-fi writer when you were growing up, yeah?
  76.  
  77. DEWOLF: Yeah. I mean, my mom was like, "We ain't going there for a while."
  78.  
  79. SUPDOC: And none of that part of the family is in $cientology.
  80.  
  81. DEWOLF: No. I mean, my grandfather was, obviously, for a while 'til, 1959. And, you know, my grandmother, she was L Ron's 'personal typist' for a long time and stuff like that. And also in those early days though, they had kind of a strange relationship because, you know, his son shows up and his son is basically this young beefy dude. Kind of looks like his dad. Same name, right. Same red hair. And he kind of became an enforcer for his father and did a lost of nasty shit; muscled a lot of people, blackmailed them, beat them up.
  82.  
  83. DEWOLF: And also, in his memoirs he talks about, the memoir has never been released, but it talks a lot about how his father showed him a lot of, like, black magic or cultic sex rites and all this crazy disturbing shit. That is absolutely fucking true. It just sounds so preposterous because it is inherently ridiculous in nature, but L Ron believed in that shit. And that's been proven over and over again.
  84.  
  85. SUPDOC: Right
  86.  
  87. DEWOLF: And he did a lot of cultic sex rites with Jack Parsons, who was an American benefactor of Aleister Crowley.
  88.  
  89. SUPDOC: The jet propulsion labs...
  90.  
  91. DEWOLF: Exactly. And so they literally tried to bring about the apocalypse by going into the desert and having, like, you know, quasi sexual rites.
  92.  
  93. SUPDOC: (laughs)
  94.  
  95. DEWOLF: And I don't actually believe in, you know, black magic. And I've only been to Burning Man once, so I don't really put a lot of investment in whatever you are going to draw in the fucking sand. A lot of it is more about the intent. You know. It's about the thinking of it, and it’s also about the fact that he hid a lot of those roots and hid a lot of who he truly was for a long time.
  96.  
  97. DEWOLF: But yeah. That's always why I hate the 'religious intolerance' shit. It's like, it never started as that. So I mean, for them to even hide behind it is, bullshit.
  98.  
  99. SUPDOC: In the movie this is brought up. Like it was basically because he didn't pay taxes, Hubbard didn't pay taxes.
  100.  
  101. DEWOLF: Well what happened is that, yeah. They were like, "If this is a science, prove it." You know what I mean. And also "If this is a new mental health device, who are you helping?" (laughs)
  102.  
  103. SUPDOC: Right
  104.  
  105. DEWOLF: And he would actually bring people forth. And he's like, "I have the first clear."
  106.  
  107. SUPDOC: Yeah
  108.  
  109. DEWOLF: You know, and bring them on stage to try and substantiate his claims. And they would just dive bomb like a motherfucker because, I mean (laughs), it was totally fraudulent. You know what I mean? And so then he realized that if you turn it into a religion, you don't have to prove shit and that no one fucks with your money.
  110.  
  111. SUPDOC: lol It's brilliant.
  112.  
  113. DEWOLF: It's totally brilliant. It's amazing, it's like the guy won. He won. It's like he's dead and these motherfuckers are still fighting for this bullshit that basically he got rich off.
  114.  
  115. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  116.  
  117. DEWOLF: He cashed out. You know what I mean. He died with millions, like millions. From what I know from people who even carried these bags, he got a million dollars in cash every week delivered to him. And he was like, completely psychotic, in a fucking trailer with his teeth rotting out. He couldn't even spend the money but he just loved stacking it.
  118.  
  119. SUPDOC: Yeah. He got religious status, not first because he was a religion, but first because he got tax exemption. Which then made him...
  120.  
  121. DEWOLF: Right.
  122.  
  123. SUPDOC: That was under Miscavige, right?
  124.  
  125. DEWOLF: Yes.
  126.  
  127. SUPDOC: And so... watching this I was like, "I don't even know why you'd want to be miscavige." Like, why would you want to? Because he's living under this legacy also...
  128.  
  129. DEWOLF: You know what's amazing? He doesn't even audit.
  130.  
  131. SUPDOC: He doesn't even do it?
  132.  
  133. DEWOLF: Yeah. Imagine pope who never prays, right? (laughs)
  134.  
  135. SUPDOC: Yeah, yeah.
  136.  
  137. DEWOLF: Right? Like, "Pope, what did God say?" And he'd be like, "I don't know. I don't talk to that motherfucker." You know what I mean? He'd be like, "This is what we're doing today."
  138.  
  139. SUPDOC: Wow
  140.  
  141. DEWOLF: Alright, "First thing, we kill the jews." Who told you that? And he's like, "I don't know." And they're like, "Well, did you pray? Did you ask God?" And he's like, "I stopped praying a while ago. Listen, I'm the fucking pope though. Are you going to tell me I've got to fucking pray? I'm the fucking pope.”
  142.  
  143. DEWOLF: I mean David Miscavige grew up in $cientology. Right? So I mean, I kind of view it as, it's like if Ted Bundy was giving you sex tips You know, trying to tell you how to mack on women. You might end up being an asshole.
  144.  
  145. SUPDOC: (laughs) That's funny. I do wan't to say that the Wu-Tang Name Generator says for L Ron Hubbard, "Your Wu-Tang name is Violent Madman."
  146.  
  147. DEWOLF: (laughs) That's just too on the nose.
  148.  
  149. SUPDOC: I think someone has done this before.
  150.  
  151. DEWOLF: I mean, he was pretty violent. He wasn't like, I wouldn't say he was extraordinarily violent. (laughs)
  152.  
  153. SUPDOC: hmmm
  154.  
  155. DEWOLF: You know. There certainly have been more violent cult leaders. I think we are all lucky that after a certain point I think he basically became impotent. And so I think that that saved a whole lot of trauma.
  156.  
  157. SUPDOC: Oh yeah. Thats..
  158.  
  159. DEWOLF: Yeah. I mean I find out more details about his later days all the time. But I mean like, he started Dianetics pretty late in the game. I mean like he was like around thirty something, and you know, things kind of progressed. And he did a fair amount of drugs in his time and so forth. But even near the end there were a lot of instances of, like, with his little Sea Org messengers and stuff like that. There were like some references, but there's not like a whole lot of substantiation of super pervy things. But I think that it’s because sex to him was more like a form of control over other people. It's like if you know their sexual secrets then you have power over them and that was even more important.
  160.  
  161. SUPDOC: And you mentioned that your grandfather is not mentioned in this documentary?
  162.  
  163. DEWOLF: No. He's not mentioned at all.
  164.  
  165. SUPDOC: Not mentioned at all.
  166.  
  167. DEWOLF: No. And he was pretty pivotal, especially near the end because he almost fucked $cientology out of everything because he tried to dig him out of hiding. He said, 'My dad is either dead or totally insane. And you guys are basically taking his money. So, I want his money."
  168.  
  169. DEWOLF: And I just talked to someone recently that was part of this inner circle that just completely lost their shit because L Ron wasn't dead, but they weren't really supposed to know where he was (because everybody was looking for him), but he was completely bat shit insane. So they had a serious problem because they had to keep him out of court while somehow still manoeuvring away so that they don’t, you know, have to give anything away.
  170.  
  171. SUPDOC: Was there a will? Was there and sort of…
  172.  
  173. DEWOLF: There was a will. I actually met some of the people that literally, personally helped fuck my entire family out of it.
  174.  
  175. SUPDOC: Oh wow
  176.  
  177. DEWOLF: So, yeah. It was basically that they wanted it to all go to, obviously back to $cientology. But, I mean, at that point he was like bonkers. He was completely batshit at that point. He'd been living in fantasy so long that I think at a certain point he just… he just lost it.
  178.  
  179. SUPDOC: Did he have dementia or alzheimer's or was it just...
  180.  
  181. DEWOLF: I think it was a combination of… Ummm. Jesus Christ, I think it was a combination of lots of things. He was also pretty broken and in terrible health, near the end, because he never saw a doctor any more.
  182.  
  183. DEWOLF: At that point he started to literally convince himself of his own recuperative powers. And at that point he had surrounded himself with sycophants. SO I mean, there was no one to tell him otherwise.
  184.  
  185. SUPDOC: Yeah. He was also anti-psychiatry, so he probably wouldn't even believe in any diagnoses...
  186.  
  187. DEWOLF: Right, which is interesting if you think about it later… it's like, who were the people… Think about it on paper. The people who would be the most terrifying, you know, and malevolent against psychiatry are usually people who have some fucking problems. (laughs)
  188.  
  189. DEWOLF: A lot of that beef is because psychiatry was the first organized force that was really gonna take them down. Because they're like “…what is this new mental health shit?” They're like, “You are saying that you can cure everything. You're saying that you can cure cancer, schizophrenia, manic depression..." Like, "This is dangerous. Substantiate that shit." And he's like, "How about, I'm a religion and suck dicks in hell."
  190.  
  191. SUPDOC: (laughs)
  192.  
  193. DEWOLF: Other than that, that's what they've been able to maintain ever since.
  194.  
  195. Part 2:
  196.  
  197. DEWOLF: I remember when I used to have girlfriends earlier on and they would be like, "So what's this L Ron thing?" And I'm like, "Oh man. This is not a conversation over a beer." I'm like, "Alright, I'll go into it but you have to give like an hour." You know? But now, there's Going Clear. So I'm like, "Why don't you watch that and then we'll talk." So it just saves me a lot of time. And they'll call me right after and be like, "Holy shit! Holy…”
  198.  
  199. DEWOLF: I had so many friends hit me up after Going Clear came out and they were just like, "Oh man. I knew... You always told me this shit was crazy but I didn't know it was that crazy." And I'm like, Yeah. Why do you think when I performed this shit I was telling my neighbours, "Look, I know this sounds weird, but if you see people going through my trash, if you see some weird cars or vans out here. I know it sounds weird. I know I sound paranoid. But, I'm not. Can you just just tell me if that happens?”
  200.  
  201. SUPDOC: Which is tough when you live in West Oakland.
  202.  
  203. DEWOLF: Right. I think that the documentary is really, really cohesive though. It's like, my grandfather L Ron Jnr isn't mentioned in the documentary at all, and I think that's partly because it is such a massive subject that you have to have a cohesive thesis. And I think that they really... why it works is, you know, calling it The Prison of Belief, right, is that it really adhered to that aesthetic in terms of 'this is what we're trying to analyze.' You know, because there's all the things that you can tackle; Who is L Ron? Who was he really? What do they actually believe? What's all the crazy and insane shit that they've done to people? The Sea Org: What about now? What about the David Miscavige era? They've managed to do that by hooking it on people's (experience,) basically the way they had sunk themselves into this, and kind of had become programmed themselves.
  204.  
  205. DEWOLF: I think what Going Clear has done is... I mean it's not the first documentary on $cientology. There's been stuff by the BBC, there's been personal documentaries, there's been all kinds of stuff. But, it has been by the weight of HBO's name, and two, that Alex Gibney does not give a fuck. I mean, he has taken on Enron, he just took on Steve Jobs. He doesn't give a fuck.
  206.  
  207. SUPDOC: The Smartest Guys in the Room is a great documentary
  208.  
  209. DEWOLF: Yeah. I mean the guy is a beast. He has no problem tackling and just, you know, just walking into the dragon's cave. So I mean I think that that was a huge factor. But they were very careful when they did it. I've read a lot about the making of it and you know, they did it quickly, they took all the people and snuck them to like, you know, different alternative locations to do the interviews, and they just had hours and hours of stuff and that was the story they had to go towards.
  210.  
  211. SUPDOC: And Wright a pretty good, legit journalism credentials.
  212.  
  213. DEWOLF: Right! He's won a Pulitzer and stuff like that. And I mean that's the thing. I thank god for all of this legitimacy because, to me, growing up in such a climate of fear, and to a point that when I was 21 and I first performed against $cientology and they immediately came after me right to my door, and then my aunts and uncles are like, "Oh man. Look what you've done now. We were off the map and you fucking brought them back."
  214.  
  215. SUPDOC: The whole DeWolf family had avoided it?
  216.  
  217. DEWOLF: Oh yeah. No one in my family talks about it. I was the only one. I'm still the only one.
  218.  
  219. SUPDOC: That makes for an awkward family reunion. There's Jamie, the guy who brought the $cientologists.
  220.  
  221. DEWOLF: Right. No, what's interesting I think is that over time, some of them are championed, a little, secretly. Partly because I think that they saw that I approached it artistically. And also that I know my shit and that I'm not just babbling at the mouth. And also it’s like I've never gotten paid for any of it. It's like, this isn't some pursuit of money. I literally just got to a point where I'm like, you know what, fuck y'all. Like, fuck y'all. If I just get shot randomly by some random stray bullet in Oakland for some other dumb shit, a random riot, and I never said the truth about these fucks...
  222.  
  223. DEWOLF: I mean, it's just like, even when I was 21, to me this shit is not cute. It's not funny South Park jokes. It's not like, quasi weird. It's like, this guy destroyed people. He like raped their minds for his own amusement, money and malice. And now he's left behind an army of robots who are perpetuating his same blueprint.
  224.  
  225. DEWOLF: But it's like, people are like, "Scientologists. They believe in aliens and shit." What I always point out is that you don't actually find out about the aliens, mostly, or at least that whole Xenu intergalactic overlord thing. You only find that out when you're way deep in the church at that point. The tragedy of it is that you've literally been paying to brainwash yourself.
  226.  
  227. DEWOLF: By the time you get to OT level III you're literally hypnotizing yourself. You're sitting in a room by yourself, reading and talking to these dead alien souls that possess your body. So my point is that it may sound kind of hilarious on paper, but think of how fucked up you have to be that you even get to that point and that you would even buy that from... You are paying for that... from a sci-fi author. You know what I mean? Who's gonna be like, "Okay, I have this secret. But it's gonna cost you 75 thousand dollars," you know, "But it's true."
  228.  
  229. DEWOLF: One of the points I always talk about is if Stephen King wrote a chapter about werewolves and then he said "but this one is not only true, but it's going to cost you like a quarter of a million dollars to read it. And you're going to find out the real story about werewolves." And you are like, "Oh, Stephen King.... werewolves". I mean, that's just the way that it works.
  230.  
  231. DEWOLF: It's also just the tragedy of it. Meaning, people have lost their family and have lost aunts and uncles and shit like that. So I mean something like Going Clear I champion all the way. It's a very pivotal turning point and it matters so much to so many people across the world that someone finally said "fuck you" and just took a shot. I mean it's the most watched documentary in HBO's history. It has had massive repercussions already. And, all of the media and everybody else is like, "Oh shit. Can we talk about this now?"
  232.  
  233. SUPDOC: Right. Because that was the thing. They would so successfully and for so long, would come after anyone critical. Specifically, it's harder for ex-members I'm sure because they have all the files on them.
  234.  
  235. DEWOLF: Right. They own your confessions.
  236.  
  237. SUPDOC: And they exclude you from your family and all of that. Almost everyone interviewed in there is an ex-member right? So it's like, for them, yeah, they were obviously being monitored the whole time. As was shown with the footage of the Squirrel Busters.
  238.  
  239. DEWOLF: Some of them like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder in there... I mean even some ex-members have serious beefs with them. They champion that they came out and they are speaking out, but those guys did some nasty dirt on motherfuckers. I mean, I've heard a claim that like, straight out, that they "know where the bodies are" and shit. Like, these guys are like mafia dudes. They are like Henry Hill coming out of the mob. You know what I mean? It doesn't make them saints.
  240.  
  241. SUPDOC: Right.
  242.  
  243. DEWOLF: I know that they're trying to at least be honest and apologize for a lot of the shit that they've done. But man, they did some nasty shit on people, because those were the dudes that were out to destroy you.
  244.  
  245. SUPDOC: Yeah
  246.  
  247. DEWOLF: I mean they were heads of that.
  248.  
  249. SUPDOC: Like KGB guys
  250.  
  251. DEWOLF: Exactly. It's like if someone comes out of the CIA and they are like....
  252.  
  253. SUPDOC: "I'm sorry that I killed so many people."
  254.  
  255. DEWOLF: Yeah well they be like, "I did it for country." You know what I mean, that's how they view it. I mean, I'm a big WWII espionage fan...
  256.  
  257. SUPDOC: Aha!
  258.  
  259. DEWOLF: ... I love reading that shit. Actually, to me so much of WWII was about the spy craft of it; the enigma machine. And but what you learn is that the more you read about Nazis is like, the banality of it all. You know what I mean?
  260.  
  261. SUPDOC: Yeah
  262.  
  263. DEWOLF: It's the mechanization of evil. And also it has the same sort of cult-like mentality. Like, you know, you hammer in that there's us and then there is them. You know what I mean? That we're the chosen people, they're fucking not, and they are not even people. You know what I mean? And they are in the way of us and our salvation, so they need to be fucking destroyed.
  264.  
  265. SUPDOC: Yeah
  266.  
  267. DEWOLF: I mean when you make it that logical to someone they are like, "Okay, I get it."
  268.  
  269. SUPDOC: Well that's like the thing about the whole snitching culture within $cientology. Cutting anyone off out of your family, calling them suppressive, and it's just like, children informing on parents.
  270.  
  271. DEWOLF: Uh huh.
  272.  
  273. SUPDOC: All of that stuff. That's the thing. If you want to point out…
  274.  
  275. DEWOLF: It's brilliantly engineered, yeah. And, L Ron learned from the nazi party also. I mean he specifically modelled the Sea Org off Hitler Youth. You know what I mean? You find that a lot of these guys, like even Jim Jones for instance, he was obsessed with Hitler also. I mean they understand, sometimes at a very young age, they understand that that sort of power is attractive to them and they want to understand how that works.
  276.  
  277. DEWOLF: And a lot of it is the supremacy of will. I mean, it’s just that most people are not trying to rule the world. Most people are just trying to get a blowjob and a steak, you know, have some kids and go for a run in the park. They're not out trying to like, "God, how can I figure out how to make people fucking succumb to me!" You know what I mean. And that's with a lot of these paths that they've been on. And Hitler was a shitty painter and L Ron wasn't that great a sci-fi writer. You know what I mean? (laughs)
  278.  
  279. SUPDOC: Right
  280.  
  281. DEWOLF: That's what happens when you fail at art.
  282.  
  283. SUPDOC: I mean talking about Hitler, Germany, WWII there's definitely a comparison or a parallel to be made with the $cientology… at least the rank-and-file stuff and the cult of personality but also their pomp and circumstance of their conventions. Like the columns and... what the name, (Leni) Riefenstahl? It's so Triumph of the Willish when you watch that shit.
  284.  
  285. SUPDOC: My favourite thing is that video from the 90's where they're all singing.
  286.  
  287. DEWOLF: Yeah. That's how I ended the Holy Shit show. We had a sing along.
  288.  
  289. Part 3:
  290.  
  291. DEWOLF: That video is, although amazing on it’s own, is so well played in Going Clear. (laughs) But I mean, 'cause also just like. Oh, man. Good old 80's cheesy-like synthesizer power rock is always cheese-ball.
  292.  
  293. SUPDOC: And everyone's eye line is about a foot above the camera in all those 80's videos. They're always kind of looking like..
  294.  
  295. DEWOLF: Right, right.
  296.  
  297. SUPDOC: … big bright-eyed, about a foot above the camera.
  298.  
  299. DEWOLF: It tracks by and they all have their cardigans on and are rockin' out. What an exhausting day it looks like. What a shoot.
  300.  
  301. SUPDOC: What about whoever is like, but I'm just the bongo player for this video. I'm not really a $cientologist…
  302.  
  303. DEWOLF: Right. In a way though too, that video is kind of like them at their peak. I mean, I hope and pray that I am living in their end days. You know what I mean?
  304.  
  305. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  306.  
  307. DEWOLF: That if I literally see their collapse. That's the thing though is that nobody knows at this point actually what's going to happen.
  308.  
  309. SUPDOC: Right. Like who is the successor.
  310.  
  311. DEWOLF: David Miscavige doesn't have a successor really, but they have billions of dollars in assets. That shit ain't going anywhere.
  312.  
  313. SUPDOC: Real estate too, that's the thing they...
  314.  
  315. DEWOLF: Well yeah. The real estate is also not going anywhere. So that's the problem, those resources aren't going anywhere and I think they are just trying to hang in as long as they can. That's the thing though. Like Going Clear came out. Is the IRS going to do shit about it? All these people see it.
  316.  
  317. SUPDOC: Well look what John Oliver did with his special on his show about the televangelists. And now the IRS is looking into their tax exemption just because of John Oliver's expose he did on his show.
  318.  
  319. SUPDOC: They were banned in Germany, right?
  320.  
  321. DEWOLF: Yes. There are a whole lot of countries that are not fond of them (laughs)
  322.  
  323. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  324.  
  325. DEWOLF: I mean it's a difficult thing to argue. Because you know, in Germany their argument was: Nope. You're not a religion. You're a scam. You're a financial pyramid scam.
  326.  
  327. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  328.  
  329. DEWOLF: And they are like: We're a religion, you are intolerants. And they're like: Nah, yeah, that's cute but you're not. So I mean that's always a hard thing. Where do you argue? What level of bullshit is fine? You know what I mean?
  330.  
  331. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  332.  
  333. DEWOLF: And I've always resented that. It's like I've always resented the idea of, "Well we gotta respect everybody's beliefs." I'm like, to a point, sure, but until it becomes destructive. But it becomes destructive so quickly. You know?
  334.  
  335. SUPDOC: Right
  336.  
  337. DEWOLF: I mean in the Hare Krishna, there's a book called Monkey on a Stick. Back in the day, when one of their leaders died, some of them started drug running and gun running and building crazy pyramids and importing marble and shit. And then like banging a bunch of groupies. You know what I mean? It's like kind of inevitable, power always goes the wrong way. And it doesn't matter what religion you pick, it's always used as an excuse for atrocities, you know? I mean because ultimately, it’s about power!
  338.  
  339. SUPDOC: So you said you were raised Christian. Did your family...
  340.  
  341. DEWOLF: So Christian. So Christian. You know it was really odd. It was like my mom decided early on that she wanted me as far away from $cientology as possible so she raised us incredibly religious. I mean my mom and my dad obviously met when they were going to go and be missionaries.
  342.  
  343. SUPDOC: Blind faith obscures any kind of problem
  344.  
  345. DEWOLF: Right, right.
  346.  
  347. SUPDOC: You know Paco grew up in a very religious household. (Extraordinarily religious, adds Paco)…
  348.  
  349. DEWOLF: Yeah?
  350.  
  351. SUPDOC: Same thing. Oh yeah.
  352.  
  353. DEWOLF: Is that what brought you to the God show in the hillbillies?
  354.  
  355. SUPDOC: Yes. Oh my god. And that's why I still do a preacher character to this day, and a pastor thing. Because I grew up not only in an all white, free denominational nut house of a religious cult. Because my step father was African American I grew up in a Southern Baptist church as well.
  356.  
  357. DEWOLF: Uh huh…
  358.  
  359. SUPDOC: So I would go back and forth. I remember as a kid just being like, "All of this is bullshit! It's all pomp and circumstance, it’s all just a big parade."
  360.  
  361. DEWOLF: It's the theatricality of it. And that's the thing about the Holy Shit show that I did. It's that I specifically was using all of the tactics that I have learned as a Vaudevillian show man. Of literally audience manipulative tactics and they all worked. Because I wanted to show as an exercise literally how I can even, even someone who is obviously against this bullshit, can still literally use charismatic tricks on a crowd and they'll still work. Even though that you even know in some way that I'm tricking you.
  362.  
  363. DEWOLF: That the thing of what L Ron did. It's like "the gift of the gab." He didn't have any science. It like he managed to convince you by talking, by writing, making your brain slowly go numb. I mean, it’s like what is really that much different from a preacher and a game show host. You know what I mean? Or me hosting Tourette’s Without Regrets, or all of the burlesque circus shows that I do. It's like you hand me a microphone and I can whip an audience into a frenzy. And I learned how to do that kind of the same way that preachers do. Like learning, "How do I bring them in?" Like, "What's the moment?" Like, so it's stillness and a sincerity in my face.
  364.  
  365. DEWOLF: But I also have to show them power before that so that they trust. You know what I mean? Just all of these tactics. Like you know, Jim Jones. He was almost like a fucking carnie. You know what I mean?
  366.  
  367. SUPDOC: Of course.
  368.  
  369. DEWOLF: He had fake tumours which were chicken livers, and he'd go into the bathroom and come back out and be like, this exposed. He'd have his church members like wear 'black face' and sit in a wheelchair and get up and rise. You know what I mean? And dress old and rotten. I mean just like cheap theatre, vaudevillian tricks. But it’s like, that shit works. I mean there were even times where he would act like someone was having a heart attack. You know what I mean? So everyone would rally and be like, "Oh my god. Are you okay?" And he would miraculously recuperate, and shit like that.
  370.  
  371. DEWOLF: He claimed that someone tried to assassinate him. And it was like his own people and he said just "go into the jungle and shoot that way." You know.
  372.  
  373. SUPDOC: This makes me think that like Miscavige doesn't even really have that charisma. I don't think
  374.  
  375. DEWOLF: But he always represents himself as like an insane CEO. You know?
  376.  
  377. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  378.  
  379. DEWOLF: He's like, I'm just here to administer the goods." And I mean that's the problem. I don't think he ever intended to be, he just had that kind of vicious-like Stalin quality. You know, of like. "I didn't come up with it, but I'm damn sure gonna make this shit works at all cost."
  380.  
  381. SUPDOC: Yeah, yeah. He is very Stalinesque. But it’s also like there is a very intrinsic, very easy way to move a crowd which is to get them to chant in unison. I mean like Hitler did it.
  382.  
  383. DEWOLF: Right
  384.  
  385. SUPDOC: Christians do it. Hallelujah, Amen Heil Hitler..
  386.  
  387. DEWOLF: Yeah, the same rise...
  388.  
  389. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  390.  
  391. DEWOLF: … and whip 'em into a frenzy. You have this false sense of community. You know what I mean? You're also encouraging of confessions. You know, everyone in here, we're all together in this. And all of these tactics.
  392.  
  393. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  394.  
  395. DEWOLF: One of the reasons why I think I wanted to understand L Ron implicitly is that I really wanted to get 'who he was' actually, past cult leader. You know what I mean?
  396.  
  397. SUPDOC: Right!
  398.  
  399. DEWOLF: Because it’s like, I mean "cult leader,” that's too easy. I mean I'm like, "What was he, fucking insane? Was he a sociopath? Was he just greedy? Did he actually believe some of this shit?" Like who was he? And trying to unmask who he really was as a human being. Because I'm also related to him and I have a daughter and I have no idea, to a certain degree, what the fuck’s entirely was wrong with him. He was very singular in that way. But me and my brother are both pretty wild, hyper, redhead maniacs and for most of my life I had no idea what I was or what my kind of, real genetic make-up was.
  400.  
  401. DEWOLF: That's one side. The other side is just dismantling the mechanics of audience manipulation and con men in general. Because what most people don't get about con men, and what I think is so key about Going Clear, is that a con doesn't work unless it is something that you already want.
  402.  
  403. SUPDOC: Right!
  404.  
  405. DEWOLF: You know what I mean? It's like if I just come up and outright lie to you, that's one thing. You know what I mean? But that's actually not the most successful con. Successful cons usually work in what I almost hold it from you and taunt you and tease you with something. And once you become invested in the con, that you put your own money in, you put your own time in. And you're like, "Wait a minute. I want that." And you're like, "I don't know. You don't want that. Do you want this violin? You don't want the violin." And they're like, "No, no I want the violin." And you're like, "I don't know. I'll give it to you for like 500. It's worth like 5 grand." And you're like, "500 is fine."
  406.  
  407. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  408.  
  409. DEWOLF: And I'm going to be like, "Okay." You know what I mean? That's the con, in that it always makes you, in a way, feel like you're getting something over someone else, or that or that you alone… but you have to believe it in a way first. And you know, it's like that line in Glengarry Glen Ross. It’s like, "No one wants to buy unless they come on the lot." You know what I mean. And so I think that with Going Clear, that's what you are seeing. A lot of people are really acknowledging and accepting it. They're like, "Shit yeah. I bought this." You know what I mean? Like, "I did all these awful things to myself, my family and to other people because of it…”
  410.  
  411. Part 4:
  412.  
  413. SUPDOC: I know it's like a fiction film, but what did you... I'm sure you heard a lot of talk about The Master when that came out. People probably asked you a lot about that.
  414.  
  415. DEWOLF: Sure, sure.
  416.  
  417. SUPDOC: The one connection I thought was interesting with that is, Jeremy Blake was a visual artist who worked with Paul Thomas Anderson on Punch-Drunk Love.
  418.  
  419. DEWOLF: Right.
  420.  
  421. SUPDOC: And he, supposedly he like killed himself in 2007. A lot of people say they were running away from the church. And so I was wondering if that is another connection why Paul Thomas Anderson decided to be so critical, on top of he worked with Tom Cruise...
  422.  
  423. DEWOLF: But yeah, the Tom Cruise thing is really strange, because you think about the role that he played in Magnolia. Basically he really is another L Ron in that film. The irony of that is not lost on me. It's like that's his character arc. It's that he's someone who is, you know, incredibly aggressive, dynamic, charismatic, cult of personality who is literally unveiled live to be a fraud on air and shuts it down and has to escape it. And I think The Master has some good scenes. I think that it’s actually a pretty fair shake, I would argue. I think that $cientologists should be able to see it and not have a problem with it.
  424.  
  425. DEWOLF: I think that I have two ways of feeling about it. One, as a film maker. I thought the ending of it was just kind of like blasé. Like, err…
  426.  
  427. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  428.  
  429. DEWOLF: No spoilers, but, he ends up drunk passed out on the beach. Like who gives a fuck? You know what I mean?
  430.  
  431. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  432.  
  433. DEWOLF: And it wasn't like I wanted… you know people thought it was because I wanted some sort of rallying. Like a sharp, incisive point on $cientology and actually that wasn't it. It's like I'm also a film maker and an artist so to me it was just like, well what is your point? ...things are sort of empty and hollow and it goes back to the cycle. And I wonder if he just got neutered artistically somewhere along the way, because it's absolutely about $cientology.
  434.  
  435. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  436.  
  437. DEWOLF: So it's like they would even shuffle around that little bit. And I'm like, it is dead-on about $cientology.
  438.  
  439. SUPDOC: They're on a boat..
  440.  
  441. DEWOLF: I mean it is dead-on. Even my fucking grandfather is a character in it.
  442.  
  443. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  444.  
  445. DEWOLF: You know, he goes and sits on the porch with him and he's like, "Have you ever thought about the fact that everything my father's saying might be complete bullshit?” You know what I mean?
  446.  
  447. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  448.  
  449. DEWOLF: And he looks the same as my grandfather.
  450.  
  451. SUPDOC: Oh, the guy who plays Todd from Breaking Bad. Yeah.
  452.  
  453. DEWOLF: Yeah. But I mean he has the same kind of suit, the same kind of like…
  454.  
  455. SUPDOC: Oh wow
  456.  
  457. DEWOLF: All that. I mean it’s just, just… So, I was like, alright, I'm not saying that you have to say it's about $cientology but it’s just like, at least acknowledge it and then have a little more bite. And in a weird way, it’s that it’s kind of the most uninteresting era of $cientology to me. But I think that that's what the gods put me on the planet to do. It's for me for me to tell that story.
  458.  
  459. Part: 5
  460.  
  461. SUPDOC: Have you ever taken the e-meter test?
  462.  
  463. DEWOLF: Aaah, well it's not like a test. I mean they have… first off they have a personality test that they give you, but which is total bullshit. But yeah, I've done the e-meter shit.
  464.  
  465. SUPDOC: And what is that like?
  466.  
  467. DEWOLF: You know, it’s kind of... so it runs a small electrical jolt through your body. Very small though. I would probably say even imperceptible, but I do think it is possible that it’s doing something. It's basically a, you know, a polygraph. Almost like a minuscule polygraph device. Like it is reading, you know?
  468.  
  469. SUPDOC: Electrical output from your body?
  470.  
  471. DEWOLF: Yeah, and electrical output and stuff which, umm, but it's more of what they are saying to you. That's where the hypnosis comes into it. So L Ron was a hypnotist, early in his days of sci-fi.
  472.  
  473. SUPDOC: Oh!
  474.  
  475. DEWOLF: He was actually notorious for doing that at sci-fi readings. He would hypnotize a member of the audience. This happened. And they completely hid this along with the other black-magic ritual shit. They hid that shit later because they knew how dangerous that would sound. But I really argue, ex-$cientologists might argue a kind of different way, but it is clearly basically a hypnotic state that they are getting you in. And, they ask you a lot of questions that are very neutral. They ask you a lot of questions that are repetitious, that are very simple. They kind of like are fast and kind of break you down in it.
  476.  
  477. DEWOLF: And one thing that I've always thought was interesting about the way that they look at the theology of it, is that, you know, you talk about an e-meter and it's like any time you have a spike, you know what I mean? Like I say, "Okay now tell me about when... tell me about the last time you had ice cream." You know, and you're like, "It was delicious." And I'm like, "Tell me about the last time... the one time you were molested by your father." Right, well I'm probably going to have a reaction. Right?
  478.  
  479. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  480.  
  481. DEWOLF: So the idea is that you discuss it so many times that you no longer have a reaction to it, right. Which is where they call, ultimately, and I'm simplifying things, but ultimately that's when you get to the state of Clear, right. It's that you are not reacting to these things any more. Well, one thing you could argue, $cientologists would argue, you are becoming free of those traumatic memories. And another thing you could argue is that you are actually becoming blank. You know. That you're becoming numb.
  482.  
  483. SUPDOC: Uh huh. Yeah!
  484.  
  485. DEWOLF: So there's kind of the two ways that you go through it. And then as you go more deeply, and that's pretty much where Dianetics kind of started and stopped. It was a lot of just like hypnotic kind of, trance talking. Like therapy really, which is why he hated psychiatry so much. Because he felt like he was the shit. If Sigmund Freud can do this I can replace this shit. And then when the e-meter and stuff was heavily introduced and then the idea, and they reflect upon this in The Master also, is that they started having people having past-life regressions. And they're like, go further, and go further and go further.
  486.  
  487. SUPDOC:Uh huh.
  488.  
  489. DEWOLF: And so what happens though is that you kind of start, I would argue, unless this entire interview is a waste of everybody's time and $cientology is actually correct, and that L Ron was onto something and that he was, you know, "one of the greatest men in the century."
  490.  
  491. SUPDOC: (laughs)
  492.  
  493. Umm, "mankind's greatest friend," that's my favourite. I love the audacity of that. "Mankind's greatest friend."
  494.  
  495. SUPDOC: It's kind of like the supreme dog!
  496.  
  497. DEWOLF: I was like, "Motherfucker, your son didn't even like you." You know what I mean? Like, come on.
  498.  
  499. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  500.  
  501. DEWOLF: Like your first wife, your first two wives fucking hated you and thought you were psychotic.
  502.  
  503. SUPDOC: Was that Sarah?
  504.  
  505. DEWOLF: Ahh, there's two. Polly and Sarah. But anyways, let's say that he's not right. What happens is that you are actually being encouraged to make up fictitious bullshit in trance-like states that are then written down as fact. And you are pushed back even further to a point that those fictitious past-lives have traumatic events on them also.
  506.  
  507. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  508.  
  509. DEWOLF: So, and that's also when you get to, like when you get to Xenu or whatever though, OT3, is that you've already been going through all these crazy whack-a-doo alien lives for yourself forever. You know what I mean? And so it's really not that preposterous when you get to the Xenu thing. What's more disturbing about the Xenu thing, that people always miss, is that up until you get to OT3, you believe that you are one soul that's been traveling from body to body for zillions of years.
  510.  
  511. SUPDOC: Is that the thetan?
  512.  
  513. DEWOLF: Yeah, thetan. They've been battling for billions of years basically. And it's only when you get to OT3 that you actually discover that you're possessed by the dead souls of other alien life forms. And so what happens, and what is so fucked up about it, and why I always point it out, is like the South Park shit is amazing because they took such an atom bomb and just dropped it. And just like did it dead-on and barefaced, like "this is what they actually believe" on screen.
  514.  
  515. SUPDOC: Oh yeah.
  516.  
  517. DEWOLF: I remember when I first saw it I was like, "Holy shit. They went there." Because that was like sacred text. Like you would get that in a briefcase handcuffed to your wrist, can only open it in a room under security, under lock and key. This was like really top secret shit.
  518.  
  519. DEWOLF: But the problem is that people find out that they are possessed by these souls. And a lot of people crack, because all of a sudden they are literally possessed by, basically…
  520.  
  521. SUPDOC: … demons!
  522.  
  523. DEWOLF: … demons in a way. Like, so you have to sit in these rooms and go in these trance-like states and talk to these alien souls and basically tell them to release from your body. And that's what I always point out. It’s that like, the shit when I was like 21 and whatever when I was performing against them or whatever. Some of it, absolutely, I was just like, "This is so insane." I was almost like kind of funny. You know, but then I went to Clearwater right after that.
  524.  
  525. SUPDOC: You did? You went to Clearwater?
  526.  
  527. DEWOLF: I've been to Clearwater twice. What I think is even more sad though is like, some people like go psychotic at that point, because they really believe this shit and then they're like, "Oh my god I'm possessed by all these fucking demons, these alien souls. I've got to get them out of me." You know?
  528.  
  529. DEWOLF: And what's interesting is there are rumblings now because they've only gone up to OT level 8, which is the top.
  530.  
  531. SUPDOC: Uh huh.
  532.  
  533. DEWOLF: And L Ron "died to go and continue his research", as they say.
  534.  
  535. SUPDOC: (laughs)
  536.  
  537. DEWOLF: But there are rumours now that they may even add an OT level, and like go to OT 9 or 10. Because the problem is that it’s finite.
  538.  
  539. SUPDOC: Right!
  540.  
  541. DEWOLF: They have only so many secrets, you know, to sell.
  542.  
  543. SUPDOC: Like taking classes at Second City. There's only so many classes. (laughs)
  544.  
  545. DEWOLF: Is that what it’s like?
  546.  
  547. DEWOLF: You know, what's terrifying is when I went to Clearwater. They have these little, ahh, this little bus pulls up. And there's all these little Sea Org kids who trot out. And they're all wearing full navy regalia, like the blazers and the little embroidered like, you know, the little gold ropes and shit.
  548.  
  549. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  550.  
  551. DEWOLF: And I was like, there was something that was more disturbing about that to me than anything else.
  552.  
  553. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  554.  
  555. DEWOLF: And they all looked happy and content and on their way to school. Just like kids would be but they were real quiet and they marched. Not like, you know, Nazi goose-stepping, but like they were pretty, pretty efficient. And I was like, "Oh fuck."
  556.  
  557. SUPDOC: Like little kids born into it.
  558.  
  559. DEWOLF: Yeah. That's all they know. All they know is that "L Ron was one of the greatest men that ever lived" and that, you know, "He gave us such a gift."
  560.  
  561. SUPDOC: Right!
  562.  
  563. DEWOLF: And you know, "He sacrificed for us."
  564.  
  565. SUPDOC: There's going to be a lot of listeners that don't know what Clearwater is.
  566.  
  567. DEWOLF: Clearwater is… Clearwater, Florida, is unique and significant to $cientology in particular because when L Ron was on his ship for like 10 years escaping everybody, when he decided to land they looked at a lot of different cities that would look good for them to basically make like a land base. And so they moved in and just threw millions of dollars around. Like bought this hotel, like paid for it like 10 million dollars in cash under a false name and then bought another piece of property for like 12 million dollars and paid for it in cash under a false name and just moved the fuck in.
  568.  
  569. DEWOLF: And all these weird, crazy, like, navy people were walking around talking in this strange alien wu-tang slang that L Ron's always dropping. And the mayor is like, "Who the fuck are these people?" And they go digging and reporters are digging and they finally learn that they're $cientologists. And they're like, "What's going on?" And immediately $cientology just decides that they need to get the mayor out. Which they eventually do through all kinds of crazy, dirty shit, and basically they just took over.
  570.  
  571. SUPDOC: Wow!
  572.  
  573. DEWOLF: And they, just be sheer force of will and money, just made it their own empire.
  574.  
  575. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  576.  
  577. DEWOLF: … and their own… I think they have like over 200 security cameras downtown. They own the majority of the businesses. A majority of the businesses are $cientology run businesses. You know, downtown? And so, yeah. When I went down to Clearwater I was followed every-single-where I went, you know. And it was hilarious though because it’s like we're getting followed by just... a fucking van, like some Scooby Doo, I mean it’s like a gardening van, right. And my girlfriend notices and she's like, "We're being followed." And I was like, "No shit?" Because I had stopped paying attention.
  578.  
  579. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  580.  
  581. DEWOLF: Because also it's like, you know where I'm going. Like it says on the schedule of this conference. Like we're all staying at this hotel and we're all going…
  582.  
  583. SUPDOC: What's the conference?
  584.  
  585. DEWOLF: It was a... I can't...
  586.  
  587. SUPDOC: Because you can't have a critical conference in Clearwater?
  588.  
  589. DEWOLF: That is exactly what we did.
  590.  
  591. SUPDOC: Wow. In the heart of it
  592.  
  593. DEWOLF: In the heart of it!
  594.  
  595. SUPDOC: Because that's like Lake City. It's like having…
  596.  
  597. DEWOLF: Yeah I mean, there were photographers hiding in bushes. There was weird, crazy shit. And that's the thing also. Because of Going Clear, because of the people speaking out and the information being available on the Internet, because of this podcast, lives are being saved. Literally that it’s dismantling the church.
  598.  
  599. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  600.  
  601. DEWOLF: Because shit. Like all this stuff, you couldn't find it. Now you got the Internet, you can download it.
  602.  
  603. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  604.  
  605. DEWOLF: You've got everybody talking about it. You're going to be able to rent Going Clear in a millisecond, a $cientologist could watch it from the safety of their own home. And what's happening is that they are leaving in droves. But what makes it scary is that it can make them more dangerous.
  606.  
  607. SUPDOC: They'll get more desperate!
  608.  
  609. DEWOLF: Well what happens when you push them against the wall?
  610.  
  611. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  612.  
  613. DEWOLF: You know. And they absolutely feel it is actually crumbling and they don't want to bluff any more? What happens then?
  614.  
  615. SUPDOC: Well Paul Haggis is featured prominently in this documentary and it’s weird. His turning point seemed to be the homophobia.
  616.  
  617. DEWOLF: Right!
  618.  
  619. SUPDOC: Like his thing is like, I have two gay daughters and then there is, something that came out, some $cientologists were pro Prop 8?
  620.  
  621. DEWOLF: Right!
  622.  
  623. SUPDOC: And that he had been in it for 34 years, pretty unquestioning.
  624.  
  625. DEWOLF: Right!
  626.  
  627. SUPDOC: And then he tried to get them to renege on that, and that turned it around for him. But they have some... the celebrity hold must be slipping away. And they said at the end there is only 50 thousand people left. There's got to be more than that in Clearwater.
  628.  
  629. DEWOLF: Yeah, it’s tough, I mean there are so many… god it’s like the evil flip side of porn in LA. It's like you've got all these struggling, hungry hopefuls coming there. And they are very, very aggressive in terms of like, "We know how to hook you up."
  630.  
  631. SUPDOC: Yeah.
  632.  
  633. DEWOLF: And they've still got Tom Cruise as their flagship. And whether we like it or not, that guy has a lot of power. I mean, he pretty much bought his own film studio.
  634.  
  635. SUPDOC: Uh huh…
  636.  
  637. DEWOLF: They're talking about making a massive television studio for $cientology in LA.
  638.  
  639. SUPDOC: mmm…
  640.  
  641. DEWOLF: You know? That's been kicked around and talked about, and they may end up financing that kind of thing and stuff. So unfortunately they are just not… probably going away any time soon. You know?
  642.  
  643. SUPDOC: Well the recruitment has to be falling off though.
  644.  
  645. DEWOLF: The recruitment is falling. And I mean you know, the last time I went through the L Ron Hubbard life exhibit, which is fun for me, I went through the whole thing and it’s just being taken on this guy's fantasy land. It'd be like, you know, walking though my spank-bank or something. Like and here is the Angelina Jolie…
  646.  
  647. SUPDOC: (laughs)
  648.  
  649. DEWOLF: It's that none of this shit is real. None of it ever happened. And you know, anyway we go though and get to the end and I ask them, kind of like pretending that I didn't know anything and that like I'm an idiot. "What's this thing about, ah, aliens? Is there an alien something? And they are like, "Oh, no. We don't believe in aliens. Aliens are not part of the thing. Aliens are not our god. I think people just get confused you know. Because L Ron was a sci-fi writer and so he wrote about aliens.”
  650.  
  651. DEWOLF: And so I was like, "Oh. So there's not a belief in aliens?” And she's like, "No, that's preposterous. That's absurd." And I remember thinking, which is the bigger tragedy? That she actually doesn't know that they fucking do, or that two, she does and that this is just some insane cover story because she wants me to go along the same path that they already went on. And that's the problem though. It’s that they become this disingenuous, umm, con where they're like conning people about their own beliefs, you know, up to a point. And you can't change the beliefs. I mean, it's like the game is a monopoly all the same and someone is going to get fucked and someone is going to die rich. You know. And the only one dying rich is L Ron.
  652.  
  653. Part: 6
  654.  
  655. SUPDOC: So, Jamie. We usually end our Sup Doc interview by asking people about any documentaries they would recommend.
  656.  
  657. DEWOLF: Well, I would say the two best. My two favourite documentaries I've seen recently. One is Cartel Land. Cartel Land was one of the craziest fucking documentaries I've ever seen. Partly because, I mean the opening scene is you know, guys cooking meth in the middle of the forest, and the guy who directed this film is absolutely bat shit crazy out of his mind. I mean he's like jumping in a car where he's riding with guys that have guns out of their windows, and they're just getting in gun fights in the middle of the street. And he's like dropping on the ground. You see him fighting to get focus while they're just shooting everywhere. I mean it’s just guerrilla film-making at its finest. But, what's even more amazing about it is the moral duplicity of the entire film. There is no good guy or bad guy. It’s literally human shades in every which way. And that it shows how complex these issues are.
  658.  
  659. DEWOLF: Yeah, so I would say Cartel Land, The Imposter… Hearts of Darkness, you know, it's about the making of Apocalypse Now, which ended up being an incredible film, but was the hot as shit show on the planet and literally almost killed Francis Ford Coppola. I mean it almost killed...
  660.  
  661. SUPDOC: Martin Sheen.
  662.  
  663. DEWOLF: Martin Sheen had a heart attack, on camera.
  664.  
  665. SUPDOC: Yeah!
  666.  
  667. DEWOLF: And like smashes his face into shards, and then has a heart attack and it's basically in the movie.
  668.  
  669. SUPDOC: It's in the movie!
  670.  
  671. DEWOLF: Yeah. And Marlon Brando is sitting there…
  672.  
  673. SUPDOC: … shows up several pounds over weight!
  674.  
  675. DEWOLF: Right, and rewrites his lines every day while they're sitting there in the jungle, in the middle of basically a war zone.
  676.  
  677. SUPDOC: Well, he also made him write his lines on billboards because he couldn't see. He had really bad sight. So, he didn't want to remember his lines at a certain point so they had to write them on a billboard-size…
  678.  
  679. DEWOLF: Right. So he could not be doing lines from memory and free-styling with them while reading them off fucking billboards 20 feet high.
  680.  
  681. DEWOLF: Also, Exit Through the Gift Shop.
  682.  
  683. SUPDOC: Oh yeah.
  684.  
  685. DEWOLF: Partly just because I'm like, that to me is almost like The Imposter. It’s like the audacity of that being true, but also making you really question what's true. That's what I loved about Exit Through the Gift Shop. I'm like, what of this is artifice and who is conning who in this? And that whole sort of, elliptical knowledge of it and that sort of… just that cycle and really questioning who is the voyeur and who is the exhibitionist? You know, and are you being conned yourself by being part of this? And making you part of the process.
  686.  
  687. SUPDOC: Absolutely. Well, Jamie. Thank you so much
  688.  
  689. DEWOLF: Thank you guys
  690.  
  691. SUPDOC: I want to just do one quick thing. The Wu-Tang name for David Miscavige is Midnight Mercenary.
  692.  
  693. DEWOLF: (laughs) What's mine?
  694.  
  695. SUPDOC: And the Wu-Tang name generator for Jamie DeWolf is, Mad Ambassador.
  696.  
  697. DEWOLF: (laughs) I win. All of these are perfect.
  698.  
  699. End of transcript.
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