10:40:31 AM Swagato: grrrrr
10:40:58 AM x: ?
10:41:17 AM Swagato: why is it that every bloody asshat has to advocate a policy of appeasing the mideast
10:41:20 AM Swagato: why, why, why
10:41:32 AM Swagato: it's worse than fucking russia during the cold war
10:44:11 AM Swagato: at times it severely tests my normal desire to at least look at both sides of the story
10:44:59 AM Swagato: and that, i think, is because this whole mid-east situation is so fundamentally connected to an ideological basis
10:45:05 AM Swagato: ie..it isn't political, not at it's core
10:45:09 AM Swagato: and it isn't even about the oil
10:45:26 AM Swagato: oil's meh, it won't be around in 20 years in the mid east at least, so they can go hump their collective camels then
10:45:35 AM Swagato: but the ideology's going to be there, and that's why it bugs me
10:45:39 AM Swagato: this appeasement bs
10:50:46 AM Swagato: an ideology of violent intolerance can't exist, it shouldn't, but eh, who's listening
10:51:22 AM x: except they're not all like that
10:51:29 AM Swagato: look
10:51:38 AM Swagato: like it or not that is dominant now.
10:51:42 AM Swagato: and it's obvious
10:51:47 AM Swagato: the problem is nobody cares.
10:51:50 AM Swagato: passive sheep.
10:52:02 AM Swagato: you want to explain to the TSA agent that you're not like osama?
10:52:17 AM Swagato: because he looks at "kuwait" and his [and anyone living in 2010's] hackles rise.
10:52:37 AM Swagato: i certainly can't blame them. i see "pakistan" and i get wary.
10:52:46 AM Swagato: does that mean pakistan doesn't have some the hottest girls in the world?
10:52:50 AM Swagato: of course not.
10:53:04 AM Swagato: fact is the original ideology has been bent out of shape for good
10:53:16 AM Swagato: it needs to end and it will end at some point
10:53:17 AM Swagato: because
10:53:29 AM Swagato: "except they're not all like that" is not something you can go and tell people
10:53:39 AM Swagato: because 5% of the entire ideologues
10:53:40 AM Swagato: hell
10:53:43 AM Swagato: even -one-
10:53:48 AM Swagato: one rosa parks, one MLK,
10:53:53 AM Swagato: not all blacks were like that?
10:54:00 AM Swagato: that argument never has carried any weight
10:54:05 AM Swagato: that's why it needs to end
10:54:09 AM Swagato: because those lunatics wont' give up
10:54:17 AM Swagato: and i'll be damned if any of the sane people will give up
10:54:25 AM Swagato: thus, both can't coexist
10:54:48 AM Swagato: right now a policy of appeasement is politically appropriate thanks to oil
10:54:51 AM Swagato: once oil's gone
10:54:56 AM Swagato: mideast has nothing except lunatics
10:55:05 AM Swagato: and i hope everything they're sowing now
10:55:08 AM Swagato: they reap 10x over then
11:08:44 AM x: alright then
11:09:09 AM Swagato: and yes your avoidance of the entire subject does gall me
11:09:09 AM Swagato: often.
11:09:49 AM x: it just occurs to me that there's really nothing I could say that you would accept
11:11:11 AM Swagato: i've never failed to accept a counterargument that presents points i cannot contest
11:11:35 AM Swagato: it just bothers me that merely because of your subscription to a certain ideology you simply elide over any defence of it
11:12:38 AM x: to be honest, I mentioned several times before that those religious nutjobs are a minority in the middle east
11:13:07 AM x: do you honestly think the middle east as a whole is just accepting what they're doing?
11:13:07 AM Swagato: yes but that is such a failed argument that i'm not sure why you even mention that, lol
11:13:18 AM Swagato: its like saying..oh, well, just a few nazis were bad
11:13:25 AM Swagato: which is in point of fact, quite true.
11:13:30 AM x: that's not it at all
11:13:35 AM Swagato: how so?
11:14:02 AM Swagato: certainly not all nazis subscribed to hitler's lunacies. plenty of them were in it for nationalistic reasons, and had nothing at all to do with anti-semitism, and all the other fun
11:14:04 AM x: I'm saying that the countries in the middle east are trying to capture them as well
11:14:09 AM Swagato: yeah?
11:14:18 AM Swagato: or are they more concerned with building hotels that hit the moon?
11:14:25 AM Swagato: or buying diamond-plated mercedes benz's ?
11:14:32 AM Swagato: or i don't know, flogging women for being raped?
11:14:33 AM x: er?
11:14:42 AM Swagato: dubai, dubai, and saudi respectively.
11:14:42 AM x: what the hell?
11:14:53 AM x: of course not
11:15:04 AM Swagato: i don't see anything being done anywhere in the mideast about saudi arabia's primitive cavemen regime
11:15:18 AM Swagato: nor do i see anyone anywhere actually doing something about the "few" bad eggs
11:15:35 AM Swagato: at least when the church sex abuse thing came out recently the pope [finally] spoke out about it
11:15:45 AM Swagato: here, not one fucking person takes responsibility
11:15:49 AM Swagato: and the rest of the mideast?
11:15:57 AM Swagato: more concerned with israel bashing and oil guzzling
11:16:06 AM Swagato: kuwait
11:16:16 AM Swagato: xenophobic, insular
11:16:35 AM Swagato: not to mention institutionalised human trafficking
11:16:43 AM Swagato: dubai, let's not even go there.
11:17:05 AM Swagato: and don't tell me i don't know because i don't live there.
11:17:11 AM Swagato: i don't live in darfur either.
11:17:56 AM x: I'm not defending kuwait for that, nor am I defending saudi arabia for its primitive ways
11:18:06 AM x: I'm referring to the terrorist situation
11:18:19 AM Swagato: the terrorist situation is not isolated.
11:18:30 AM Swagato: each of what i named can be traced back to the same ideological roots
11:18:32 AM Swagato: that's the problem.
11:19:03 AM x: and it's wrong, that's the thing
11:19:08 AM x: all those things they're doing are wrong
11:19:16 AM Swagato: then why is nothing being done about it.
11:19:19 AM x: and go against the ideology, which is the ironic part
11:19:20 AM Swagato: where is the figurehead?
11:19:50 AM Swagato: islam is merely one ideology in a morass of dozens of others.
11:19:52 AM Swagato: people don't care.
11:19:55 AM Swagato: they need a visible face.
11:20:01 AM Swagato: guess who the face of islam to the world is?
11:20:04 AM Swagato: usama bin laden.
11:20:05 AM Swagato: 'grats
11:20:12 AM Swagato: inaction, you know, is worse than action.
11:20:24 AM Swagato: it's the inaction that angers me to the point that i -want- the mideast wiped out
11:20:36 AM x: -inaction-?
11:20:39 AM Swagato: yes, inaction.
11:20:41 AM x: there -is- action
11:20:44 AM Swagato: do explain
11:21:08 AM Swagato: do you really want me to accept that nobody can step forward and lay down the law about islam?
11:21:32 AM Swagato: the caliphate doesn't exist anymore
11:21:38 AM Swagato: there's no..who the fuck heads it all?
11:21:49 AM Swagato: nobody's going to bother understanding that islam doesn't do idols and shit
11:22:04 AM Swagato: and nobody should, its not their onus. onus is on the followers to make sure people get it.
11:22:18 AM Swagato: yeah christianity is fragmented into 432423 denominations
11:22:27 AM Swagato: and about half of them probably don't even acknowledge vatican
11:22:29 AM Swagato: but the world does.
11:22:36 AM Swagato: questions about christ? ===> vatican city.
11:22:43 AM Swagato: i've never
11:22:44 AM Swagato: not once
11:22:50 AM Swagato: not after teresa, diana, 9/11, or anything else
11:22:58 AM Swagato: i've never noticed a comparative action from the islamic world.
11:23:16 AM Swagato: but oh wow, al jazeera and its hotline to al-qaeda's always active
11:23:21 AM Swagato: so..action?
11:23:42 AM Swagato: some isolated imam in london condemning the attacks = not action
11:23:52 AM Swagato: i'm referring to a central statement from a governing body.
11:23:54 AM Swagato: a figurehead.
11:24:22 AM Swagato: and i'm sorry but i do keep up with news on nearly everything. unless it's a bloody state secret, i don't know of any such figurehead that exists.
11:24:25 AM Swagato: except ubl
11:25:48 AM x: you're talking about a figurehead to give a central statement regarding what? the attacks? or some sort of way to stop it?
11:26:19 AM Swagato: regarding what the islamic world accepts and what it does not.
11:26:55 AM Swagato: if saudi arabia is indeed pursuing a warped vision..well where's the action being done to force them to give up?
11:27:14 AM Swagato: if ubl is not what islam stands for..well where's the global islamic condemnation?
11:27:34 AM Swagato: we have some fat sheik in a california college daring to support hamas openly
11:27:59 AM Swagato: not to mention the entire mideast wants israel vaporised..for purely ideological reasons
11:28:19 AM Swagato: ironically, israel being the most open, progressive, and rational nation in that entire region
11:28:36 AM Swagato: but perhaps that is why it is all the more intolerable that a bunch of war-torn jews can perform better than a whole herd of oil-rich sheiks
11:29:01 AM Swagato: not to mention the "honour" killings that pollute britain and america alike
11:29:21 AM Swagato: or the audacity of some group wanting to build a fucking mosque
11:29:28 AM Swagato: at or near ground zero of the world trade centers
11:29:43 AM Swagato: are these the accepted statements of the islamic culture per se?
11:29:46 AM Swagato: or are they fringe lunatics?
11:29:53 AM Swagato: i don't see anyone differentiating between them.
11:30:01 AM Swagato: and by anyone, i mean someone like the christian pope
11:30:12 AM Swagato: -generally- what the pope says = representative of the official stance.
11:30:22 AM Swagato: thus even if the pope declares condoms are bad
11:30:22 AM Swagato: wel
11:30:23 AM Swagato: l
11:30:25 AM Swagato: shit, that's that.
11:31:01 AM Swagato: i don't know how many times the us govt. and usama fucked each other, but it happened a lot..but that was back then
11:31:12 AM Swagato: i'm sure few if anyone in the administration was happy about 9/11
11:31:16 AM Swagato: and honestly
11:31:19 AM Swagato: the guy's still dancing around
11:31:32 AM Swagato: do you really believe this is possible completely without the support of some people?
11:31:35 AM Swagato: sympathisers?
11:31:45 AM Swagato: and yet there's no official statement from anyone
11:31:51 AM Swagato: its like..yeah..you're free to do your own things..
11:32:04 AM Swagato: sure some madcap wants to kill his daughter for fucking around but hey
11:32:11 AM Swagato: i'm not like that, so just so you know, not everyone' slike that
11:32:17 AM Swagato: ...is that even something to say?
11:32:26 AM Swagato: its just so
11:32:28 AM Swagato: frustrating.
11:32:45 AM Swagato: saudi's allowed to carry on its caveman style
11:32:55 AM Swagato: kuwait's cool with its racism and its trafficking
11:33:03 AM Swagato: palestine..i don't even want to start about them
11:33:05 AM Swagato: lebanon..same
11:33:15 AM Swagato: iraq/n? fuck them
11:33:25 AM Swagato: and yet
11:33:34 AM Swagato: its all a bunch of asshats sharing the same ideological roots
11:33:37 AM Swagato: nope, just coincidence.
11:34:22 AM Swagato: do you think i'd be so pissed if it were like
11:34:42 AM Swagato: the mideast's comprised of hindus buddhists zen christies mullahs and everyone else just gangbanging each other
11:35:19 AM Swagato: no, i surely wouldn't, because that is what happens when its all conflicted. that's what happens when religions coexist, and its because [personally] that religion engenders such conflict and by nature is intolerant.
11:35:37 AM Swagato: but it's the fact that that entire region shares an ideology, whatever version of it i don't care, but it's the same root.
11:35:51 AM Swagato: so it really doesn't matter to me that lebanon is different from say, saudi
11:35:55 AM Swagato: to me, they're both equally shitty.
11:36:19 AM Swagato: hence why i spoke of inaction.
11:43:03 AM x: the thing is, you make it sound absolute
11:43:36 AM x: there's action, but not on the grand scale that we want
11:43:43 AM x: it's slow
11:43:44 AM x: but it's there
11:43:47 AM x: there's progress
11:45:20 AM x: and there are organizations everywhere that teach what Islam is about
11:45:40 AM Swagato: none central.
11:45:58 AM Swagato: you do realise the immense importance of a single identifying body or person
11:46:06 AM Swagato: lacking which no ideology has any credibility
11:47:09 AM x: yes, but there is one
11:47:25 AM x: the mullah in mecca
11:47:35 AM x: which brings me to the next point
11:47:45 AM x: saudi arabia is far from open
11:47:50 AM x: we all agree on that
11:47:57 AM x: and even the people hate it
11:48:37 AM x: which is why small progress started happening
11:48:52 AM x: for example, the university that was recently opened
11:48:56 AM x: it's non-segregated
11:49:03 AM x: I'm not saying that that's enough
11:49:04 AM Swagato: non-segregation!
11:49:07 AM Swagato: ...in 2010!
11:49:09 AM Swagato: gasp
11:49:14 AM x: but to them? that's still progress
11:49:16 AM Swagato: that's pathetic, and you know that.
11:49:28 AM x: it's saudi arabia
11:49:30 AM Swagato: who cares what it is -to them- ?
11:49:34 AM Swagato: that's defeating the whole point
11:49:43 AM Swagato: its like saying getting cellphones in india is progress to indians
11:49:49 AM x: but my point is that they're not stuck in that lifestyle
11:50:06 AM x: they're not undergoing stagnancy
11:50:30 AM Swagato: i have very strong reservations about any 'progress' as long as they cling to their ideology.
11:50:34 AM Swagato: and by they = mideast.
11:50:35 AM x: progress, as little and as slow as it is, is still being done
11:51:24 AM x: and the people are unwilling to keep allowing themselves to be oppressed any more
11:52:06 AM Swagato: i resent bitterly the fact that it is next to impossible to question islam in a rational tone
11:52:13 AM Swagato: because there's always some terrorist sheik behind your shoulder
11:53:07 AM x: and there are people here infiltrating terrorist organizations
11:54:07 AM Swagato: well that explains why they flourish, i guess.
11:54:58 AM x: and do you really think we're just sitting here allowing them to run around openly and bomb everything that moves?
11:55:06 AM Swagato: pretty much
11:55:13 AM Swagato: thanks to the lack of any central organisational force.
11:55:34 AM x: there -is- but they're going behind it
11:55:42 AM Swagato: if hamas really is such a "fringe" organisation without mass support...no terrorist organisation exists without mass support.
11:55:43 AM x: they're killing innocent people
11:55:50 AM x: kidnapping and brainwashing kids
11:55:53 AM Swagato: duh
11:56:03 AM x: and no one here is fine with it
11:56:13 AM Swagato: but they're fine with regular human trafficking
11:56:15 AM x: if they were, the terrorists wouldn't be hiding
11:56:30 AM Swagato: hamas moves openly in that filthy hellhole known as palestine
11:56:39 AM Swagato: or, as i prefer it, the original name..philistine
11:57:00 AM x: hamas uses its own people as shields
11:57:03 AM x: what do you expect
11:57:18 AM Swagato: i expect palestinians to quit whining and do something.
11:57:28 AM Swagato: i expect lebanon's people to quit bitching and do something.
11:57:31 AM x: do what? throw rocks at them?
11:57:45 AM Swagato: i thought they're supposed to be a 'fringe' organisation
11:57:54 AM Swagato: i'm sure the entire population of palestine outnumbers that of hamas
11:58:05 AM Swagato: but then again
11:58:09 AM Swagato: far easier to just blame israel
11:58:19 AM x: and what percentage of that population are children?
11:58:24 AM x: people who can't defend themselves
11:58:36 AM Swagato: bullshit.
11:58:54 AM Swagato: i've heard enough about the poor palestinian weak people who can't defend themselves against the godly hamas, boo hoo
11:59:18 AM Swagato: if hamas truly does not enjoy the support of palestine as a nation, well, let's just say it sure doesn't LOOK that way
11:59:39 AM x: because they use fear
11:59:45 AM Swagato: your point?
11:59:55 AM Swagato: they are after all a -terror- organisation.
12:00:05 PM Swagato: i would expect them to at the least be capable of using fear tactics.
12:00:17 PM Swagato: the US is not without its lunatics.
12:00:19 PM Swagato: neonazis
12:00:20 PM Swagato: neocons
12:00:23 PM Swagato: tea party
12:00:27 PM Swagato: aryan nation
12:00:28 PM Swagato: whatever.
12:00:36 PM Swagato: does it LOOK like the entire country is in support of them ?
12:00:37 PM Swagato: no
12:00:38 PM Swagato: it doesn't.
12:00:49 PM Swagato: does it look like your average palestinian fuckwit wants israel dead?
12:00:50 PM Swagato: yes
12:00:53 PM Swagato: very much so.
12:01:07 PM Swagato: how dare some idiot come to california of all places
12:01:14 PM Swagato: and how dare they openly say they support hamas
12:01:30 PM Swagato: how dare such people take advantage of the freedom afforded by THIS country
12:01:35 PM Swagato: freedom not available in their OWN country
12:01:40 PM Swagato: as evidenced by that fucking tent that bitch was wearing
12:02:20 PM x: because the average palestinian is brainwashed into seeing Israel as nothing but evil
12:03:27 PM Swagato: poor guy
12:03:29 PM Swagato: want a cookie?
12:03:54 PM Swagato: how is THAT ^
12:03:59 PM Swagato: in any way whatsoever
12:04:23 PM Swagato: different from a person brainwashed to believe in a certain ideology and thereby perceive the universe and existence in a certain way ?
12:04:30 PM Swagato: how is that different from religion and what it does to people?
12:04:58 PM Swagato: do you think that ^ is even remotely different from a kid knowing nothing other than Sunday masses and church and catholicism and growing up to believe in all it dictates?
12:05:10 PM Swagato: and do you think either of them are ANY different in that both offer the victim the choice
12:05:26 PM Swagato: the choice to either choose to accept and not question, or accept with questions but accept anyway because that's easier
12:05:27 PM Swagato: OR
12:05:30 PM Swagato: to question and reject?
12:05:38 PM Swagato: they're both identical.
12:06:07 PM Swagato: hamas brainwashing a palestinian === a priest advising a kid === a mullah preaching to a kid === whatever other religions do
12:06:08 PM Swagato: and they ALL
12:06:14 PM Swagato: offer the choice to accept or to reject.
12:06:16 PM Swagato: ultimately
12:06:26 PM Swagato: the responsibility is not that of the hamas terrorist or the priest
12:06:32 PM Swagato: it's that of the person listening.
12:06:39 PM Swagato: so if that person makes their choice to accept
12:06:46 PM Swagato: never expect any sympathy on my side
12:06:52 PM Swagato: the preacher preaches, obviously
12:06:55 PM Swagato: 's what i'd expect
12:07:00 PM Swagato: but the audience?
12:07:05 PM Swagato: nobody's forcing them
12:07:14 PM Swagato: and if you tell me yes, hamas is forcing them to accept or die
12:07:14 PM Swagato: well
12:07:18 PM Swagato: that's a choice too.
12:07:42 PM Swagato: would you rather be rich in your country and live in a system you despise or move elsewhere and be poor but fulfilled
12:07:55 PM Swagato: or would you rather forget who you are and what you are, or would you rather just die and make it stop
12:08:22 PM Swagato: integrity
12:08:30 PM Swagato: you gots it, or you don't gots it.
12:11:28 PM x: it's different because you're being brainwashed into joining a vicious cycle of violence
12:11:40 PM Swagato: oh and religious brainwashing is not a vicious cycle ?
12:11:45 PM Swagato: absolute adherence or damnation
12:11:50 PM Swagato: sure sounds like a cycle to me
12:12:09 PM x: and that's completely wrong, it's not how it should be
12:12:18 PM Swagato: but anyway..not to bash religion..because frankly, my problem has never been with -religion-
12:12:25 PM x: yet these fanatics are twisting into something it shouldn't be
12:12:28 PM Swagato: i firmly believe religious ideologies were necessary at one point
12:12:38 PM x: it*
12:12:39 PM Swagato: in order to allow a primitive group of humans to develop
12:12:50 PM Swagato: humans -needed- something to believe in in order to pull themselves up
12:12:52 PM Swagato: and as such
12:12:52 PM Swagato: yes
12:12:59 PM Swagato: religious ideologies have served a purpose in history
12:13:09 PM Swagato: however the one and only problem, the root problem
12:13:21 PM Swagato: is that somehow, perversely, we've never grown out of wetting the fucking bed and calling for mommy
12:13:36 PM Swagato: centuries have passed and we have clung to these ideologies of intolerance and dogma and hatred
12:13:47 PM Swagato: instead of finally realising them for the temporary placebos they were designed to be
12:13:58 PM Swagato: instead of realising and overcoming them by sheer informational advance
12:14:09 PM Swagato: and that is not the fault of mohammed or christ, or buddha
12:14:23 PM Swagato: all of whom probably existed and were probably champs at people skills but were never any more than that
12:14:27 PM Swagato: that is OUR fault
12:14:29 PM Swagato: and our stupidity
12:14:30 PM Swagato: well
12:14:32 PM Swagato: not all but
12:14:33 PM Swagato: sadly
12:14:33 PM Swagato: most
12:14:52 PM Swagato: that is the biggest problem. that we've been unable to, despite all our advances, eradicate the institution of religion
12:15:09 PM Swagato: and i'm not even talking about fanatics because frankly
12:15:14 PM Swagato: the fanatics exist BECAUSE of the religion
12:15:17 PM Swagato: whichever one it is
12:15:26 PM Swagato: today it's cool to be islamic and a bomber
12:15:36 PM Swagato: yesterday it was cool to be christian and an executioner
12:15:40 PM Swagato: however...
12:15:50 PM Swagato: a fanatic can only exist thanks to a foundational ideology
12:16:02 PM Swagato: the boston tea party would never have happened if there weren't some people pissed off
12:16:07 PM Swagato: some people who believed in some things.
12:16:14 PM Swagato: so without islam
12:16:16 PM Swagato: no islamic fanatics
12:16:19 PM Swagato: without christianity
12:16:23 PM Swagato: no inquisitions
12:16:41 PM Swagato: so arguing that the fanatics are to blame because they warp and selectively apply principles
12:17:01 PM Swagato: is a facile argument that fails to account for the fact that it is the institutions themselves that provide these fanatics with the ammunition they need
12:17:02 PM Swagato: and rely on
12:17:08 PM Swagato: to perform their brainwashing acrobatics
12:17:22 PM Swagato: and thus propagate an ever-intensifying spiral of hardcore fanaticism
12:17:27 PM Swagato: that can only end in absolute war and destruction
12:17:34 PM Swagato: either of the institution that caused such fanaticism
12:17:40 PM Swagato: or the institution[s] that oppose
12:18:03 PM Swagato: the fanatics can hardly be blamed as long as they can point fingers and go
12:18:03 PM Swagato: hey
12:18:08 PM Swagato: THAT's where i got my ideas from.
12:18:15 PM Swagato: blame the source, not the carrier.
12:18:28 PM Swagato: today islamic fanatics merely carry their own version of the same book you cling to
12:18:28 PM Swagato: and
12:18:31 PM Swagato: here's the catch
12:18:35 PM Swagato: who are you to say they're wrong?
12:18:45 PM Swagato: sure you might be saying that now
12:18:50 PM Swagato: but there's no proof of it
12:19:06 PM Swagato: every religion has evolved in sync with the period its followers are stuck in
12:19:22 PM Swagato: it's always going to be your word versus usama's word
12:19:27 PM Swagato: and each will find its adherents
12:20:03 PM x: yes, but here's the kicker, the word 'islam' is derived from the word 'al salam' which means peace
12:20:11 PM Swagato: ..wunderbar
12:20:17 PM Swagato: and?
12:20:31 PM x: it advocates peace above all things
12:20:57 PM Swagato: well if every non-believer is destroyed and the rest converted to believing in islam
12:21:01 PM Swagato: that's sure to guarantee peace.
12:21:11 PM Swagato: quite a valid approach.
12:21:23 PM x: it does not condone harming innocent people
12:21:33 PM Swagato: lol
12:21:36 PM x: it does not condone most of what they're doing
12:21:41 PM Swagato: you want to go preach that to the terrorists ?
12:21:45 PM x: which is ironic because they seem to think they're right
12:21:48 PM Swagato: ..as do you.
12:21:57 PM x: er?
12:22:01 PM Swagato: "which is ironic because they seem to think they're right
"
12:22:05 PM Swagato: and you think you're right.
12:22:11 PM Swagato: they're no different from you
12:22:13 PM Swagato: its just that
12:22:18 PM Swagato: they have a different interpretation
12:22:25 PM x: because they're going against what the religion is about
12:22:28 PM Swagato: are they?
12:22:31 PM Swagato: not according to them.
12:22:44 PM Swagato: i'm trying to show you how flawed your standpoint is because
12:22:51 PM Swagato: everything you'll tell me that proves your validity
12:22:55 PM Swagato: can equally be applied to usama
12:22:58 PM Swagato: to prove HIS validity
12:23:07 PM Swagato: this would not exist if you were pointing to the bible
12:23:11 PM Swagato: and he to the quran
12:23:13 PM Swagato: but hi
12:23:17 PM Swagato: you're both pointing to the same text.
12:23:23 PM Swagato: and you both claim the text is absolute.
12:23:37 PM Swagato: therefore logically, both interpretations must be correct.
12:24:02 PM x: yes and I'm saying that killing innocents is blatantly against what Islam stands for
12:25:47 PM Swagato: so?
12:25:58 PM Swagato: usama's coming right back at you with the concept of holy war
12:26:10 PM Swagato: and yes he will say that islam is now under attach
12:26:11 PM Swagato: attack
12:26:15 PM Swagato: and therefore must defend itself
12:26:16 PM Swagato: WHICH
12:26:20 PM Swagato: is firmly enshrined in the quran
12:26:31 PM x: holy war or in any warm, you can't kill innocent people
12:26:31 PM Swagato: thus validating his jihad.
12:26:33 PM Swagato: ^
12:26:35 PM x: war*
12:27:05 PM Swagato: regarding "innocent" people
12:27:32 PM x: civilians, for example
12:27:35 PM Swagato: hold on
12:28:20 PM Swagato: bunch of quotes coming up
12:28:37 PM Swagato: 3:85 “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers”
Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them."

12:28:57 PM Swagato: “No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir.”(Hadith vol. 9:50)

12:30:26 PM Swagato: not very tolerant is it
12:31:39 PM Swagato: the definition of "innocent", as you can guess from just that little sample of quotes
12:31:48 PM Swagato: can be very, very easily extended to include an 'infidel'
12:32:08 PM Swagato: for then, of course, said 'innocent' would be guilty of being an infidel
12:32:16 PM Swagato: and thus validating usama again
12:33:02 PM Swagato: and honestly if i can sit in my couch and google and come up with ways to justify usama bin laden using the same quran you're using
12:33:14 PM Swagato: i don't care to think of what goes in those madrassas
12:33:39 PM Swagato: however we can kick the ball back and forth, but the fact is no matter what we debate
12:33:48 PM Swagato: as long as you and usama can lay claim to the same text
12:33:55 PM Swagato: neither of you can conclusively prove the other is wrong
12:34:06 PM Swagato: ESPECIALLY
12:34:16 PM Swagato: if the additional claim is made that the quran is pure as a virgin's cunt
12:34:18 PM Swagato: which it is.
12:34:27 PM Swagato: the claim, not that i'm saying the quran is pure
12:34:56 PM Swagato: which is why it is the religion's fault that the fanatics even exist -- it is what provides them fuel.
12:38:11 PM x: if that were the case, all muslims would be fanatics, wouldn't they?
12:38:20 PM Swagato: of course not.
12:38:38 PM Swagato: do all students of literature love Northanger Abbey ?
12:38:55 PM Swagato: yet in my course i had to listen to both the idiots who hated it and thought it a trivial waste of time
12:39:14 PM Swagato: and i had to listen to those who recognised it's nuances and why it is very much worth exploring in detail
12:39:17 PM x: Real muslims don't condone what Osama or any of those wackos' actions
12:39:17 PM Swagato: the text is absolute
12:39:19 PM Swagato: the interp
12:39:21 PM Swagato: lmao
12:39:23 PM Swagato: "real" muslims?
12:39:25 PM Swagato: who are they?
12:39:31 PM Swagato: and who are you to claim real vs. false?
12:39:36 PM x: the ones who don't use violence as a means
12:39:40 PM Swagato: because?
12:39:50 PM Swagato: the book says so?
12:40:25 PM Swagato: take a step back and look around you.
12:41:06 PM x: I don't know if you read it or not but, the book contains stories, guidelines. They all advocate peace
12:41:13 PM Swagato: people killing sisters and daughters due to islamic "honour". people judging women as criminals for being raped because of islamic "honour". people oppressing others in the name of islamic "norms". people bombing others in the name of islamic "norms".
12:41:16 PM Swagato: the problem is
12:41:19 PM Swagato: you are telling me this
12:41:22 PM Swagato: while THEY
12:41:25 PM Swagato: point to the same damned book
12:41:29 PM Swagato: and the same damned preachings
12:41:32 PM Swagato: to justify their deeds
12:41:33 PM x: see and that's completely wrong
12:41:39 PM Swagato: why, because you say so?
12:42:18 PM x: because that's not how things were done when Islam was established
12:42:24 PM Swagato: that's true.
12:42:29 PM Swagato: because when it was established
12:42:30 PM x: none of this terrorist bullshit
12:42:33 PM Swagato: mohammed was sleeping
12:42:34 PM Swagato: and fucking
12:42:36 PM Swagato: a goddamn child.
12:42:44 PM Swagato: so yes, that's not how things were done -- things were far fucking worse.
12:47:11 PM Swagato: there is such an enormous list of things about the acclaimed prophet of islam
12:47:19 PM Swagato: that are simply not questioned outside of academic circles
12:47:32 PM Swagato: out of fear, reluctance, blindness, ignorance, or any combination thereof
12:48:07 PM Swagato: and yet there is almost no way he can even be considered a person of morals
12:48:16 PM Swagato: much less a prophet/philosopher of peace and wisdom
12:48:18 PM Swagato: but heh
12:48:29 PM Swagato: who dares question that outside of the safe halls of yale or berkeley
1:03:44 PM x: siiiiigh
1:04:11 PM x: I sincerely hate this topic
1:56:19 PM Swagato: well, naturally.