[12:01.04] <Terenos> Well, I don't think any of the rest of you are close enough for any diplomacy
[12:01.05] <Terenos> For now.
[12:01.10] <Terenos> Except maybe Boruvia.
[12:01.18] <Terenos> But who wants to deal with that nest of snakes..
[12:01.24] <Terenos> I mean OH HEY AZ! Didnt see you there.
[12:02.52] <apotheoseGrifter> you know, i'm only two countries away from you and shoot
[12:03.11] <apotheoseGrifter> granted, it's a lot more land, but hey
[12:03.56] <apotheoseGrifter> actually, one country away from shoot
[12:03.58] <Terenos> Thats a lot of land.l
[12:04.56] <apotheoseGrifter> you know...
[12:05.06] <apotheoseGrifter> riesental is technically a province of boruvia
[12:05.24] <Terenos> Is it?
[12:05.29] <apotheoseGrifter> kinda-sorta
[12:05.50] <apotheoseGrifter> they acknowledge boruvia as a sovereign state over them
[12:05.56] <apotheoseGrifter> as does crivia, apparently
[12:06.09] <Terenos> Interesting
[12:06.21] <apotheoseGrifter> but y'know, there's probably a reason why they have separate borders
[12:07.02] <apotheoseGrifter> cragenwaste also, maybe? although that bit's speculation
[12:07.21] <apotheoseGrifter> mostly because it is, in ghaz's words, the mining equivalent of riesental
[12:07.33] <apotheoseGrifter> although i guess that doesn't mean it's also a province of boruvia
[12:10.34] <apotheoseGrifter> if you're going to declare war on all humans, though, valegorn is probably going to be the biggest thorn in your side
[12:10.43] <apotheoseGrifter> apparently all the nations listen to it
[12:11.15] <apotheoseGrifter> not entirely sure why; it's tiny and all-desert
[12:12.06] <Terenos> Damn religious head of hte world
[12:12.54] <apotheoseGrifter> oh hm, that might be it
[12:13.24] <apotheoseGrifter> although, "palatinate" kinda implies their powers should be coming from boruvia...
[12:14.02] <Terenos> New mission objective: Sack the holy city.
[12:14.32] <apotheoseGrifter> but you're not jotland
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[12:16.10] <+Taricus> Hey File
[12:16.32] <apotheoseGrifter> no wait, yeah, it's probably religious
[12:16.48] <Terenos> I can sack whatever I like
[12:16.54] <apotheoseGrifter> lel
[12:16.57] <adwarf> Go sack your own kingdom
[12:17.02] <apotheoseGrifter> it was a joke in reference to ckII
[12:17.04] <adwarf> Then realize how horrendously poor you are
[12:17.05] <apotheoseGrifter> jotlands are vikings
[12:17.28] <apotheoseGrifter> jotlanders?
[12:17.33] <apotheoseGrifter> jotlanders
[12:17.58] <Azthor> Good luck getting through me to reach Valegorn.
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[12:18.26] <Terenos> Good luck stopping the Iron March.
[12:18.26] <apotheoseGrifter> well, actually, he could go around you
[12:18.30] <apotheoseGrifter> or down the river
[12:18.42] <apotheoseGrifter> sorneneve is ruled by elves
[12:18.51] <apotheoseGrifter> and brogen hur is ruled by dwarves
[12:18.52] <Azthor> Do you truly presume to conquer untold human nations with dwarven troops alone?
[12:19.04] <Terenos> Quite possibly
[12:19.09] <Terenos> I have a lot of them.
[12:19.09] <apotheoseGrifter> sorneneve and brogen hur trade with humans, but still
[12:19.29] <Azthor> If you had enough dwarves to trade population with several other factions from the start this game would be pointless in the first place.
[12:19.31] <Azthor> So I quite doubt it.
[12:20.14] <Terenos> I have a plan.
[12:20.18] <Azthor> If you are unable to replenish your army/economy with your conquests, conquest is not profitable, but merely a burden.
[12:20.27] <Azthor> So at the very worst you plan mass enslavement.
[12:20.33] <Terenos> *draws PALN on the blackboard behind him* A P! L! A! N! A PLAN!
[12:20.45] <apotheoseGrifter> eh
[12:21.11] <apotheoseGrifter> if i were in your position and actually wanted to sack valegorn, i know what i'd be doing
[12:21.21] <apotheoseGrifter> and it wouldn't be an iron march
[12:21.32] <apotheoseGrifter> that's empty posturing :P
[12:21.41] <Azthor> Invaeding Valegorn would be silly.
[12:21.42] <Terenos> But I dont actually intend to sack the holy city. Its just hilarious to see reactions
[12:22.08] <Azthor> As it'd equate to all human nations declaring war with his entire army stuck in the middle of human lands.
[12:22.10] <Azthor> Aka. suicide.
[12:22.41] <apotheoseGrifter> not immediately, no
[12:22.51] <Azthor> Immediately.
[12:23.05] <apotheoseGrifter> no, i mean you wouldn't be able to march on valegorn immediately and win
[12:23.12] <Azthor> Oh, that, pretty much.
[12:23.44] <Azthor> And while I have no interest in expanding north (...) I will not stand idly if an Imperial province is invaded.
[12:24.41] <apotheoseGrifter> heck, you'd have to invent river boats and ally with your brothers at brogen hur to even have a chance
[12:24.51] <apotheoseGrifter> maybe even river submarines
[12:24.54] <Azthor> Brogen Hur is uninterested in expansion.
[12:25.07] <apotheoseGrifter> only because it's tired of fighting endless wars against humans
[12:25.11] <Azthor> And they can't reach each other without touching imperial lands.
[12:25.26] <apotheoseGrifter> dunmar is imperial lands?
[12:25.31] <Azthor> Yes.
[12:25.38] <Azthor> Though Dunmar...
[12:25.39] <apotheoseGrifter> huh, i thought it was elven for some reason
[12:25.47] <Azthor> Well, I probably could live without it.
[12:25.49] <apotheoseGrifter> probably the resemblance to dunmer
[12:25.56] <Azthor> Due to how horribly hard to defend it is.
[12:26.07] <apotheoseGrifter> well, you could probably take on dunmar
[12:26.22] <Azthor> It'd leave me exposed.
[12:26.22] <apotheoseGrifter> shoot'd probably even help you, since he hates all of his neighbors
[12:26.25] <Azthor> And defending it is undoable.
[12:26.47] <Terenos> Let us say that I am interested in Dunmar
[12:26.59] <Terenos> And let us say I would be willing to bribe Boruvia to look somewhere else
[12:27.08] <Azthor> What do you propose?
[12:27.08] <Terenos> Would this hypothetical scenario have a price?
[12:27.11] <apotheoseGrifter> you'd just need to secure the river path, hope really hard that the palemoor elves don't attack you while you go through their territory, negotiate with the sonneneve elves
[12:27.25] <Azthor> It is rather straightforward (...)
[12:27.28] <apotheoseGrifter> hell, maybe covertly help them with cragenwaste
[12:27.43] <apotheoseGrifter> or just sneak through with river submarines
[12:28.12] <Terenos> River submarines? Thats crazy talk
[12:28.17] <Azthor> Cragenwaste and Riesental are what I consider my proper border.
[12:28.26] <Azthor> Dunmar? Dunmar we can talk about.
[12:28.34] <Terenos> So you would want to take both of those
[12:28.42] <Azthor> They are already formally mine.
[12:28.44] <apotheoseGrifter> brogun hur tho, you'd definitely have to ally with brogun hur to get the ships down to that river tributary in its territory and go through that
[12:28.46] <Azthor> And allied to me.
[12:28.49] <Terenos> Technically sure.
[12:28.53] <Terenos> But they are independant nations
[12:28.58] <apotheoseGrifter> cragenwaste actually is allied to you? huh, that was just speculation on my part
[12:29.08] <Azthor> So is Hadrigel too.
[12:29.17] <Azthor> And indirectly Brogen Hur.
[12:29.33] <Terenos> Hah. as though dwarves bend the knee to a human Emperor
[12:29.35] <Azthor> Riesental still calls itself a province, Cragenwaste doesn't.
[12:29.42] <Azthor> They just like profitable trade.
[12:29.47] <Azthor> And are wary of Kargosh.
[12:29.53] <Azthor> Khazoth*
[12:29.53] <apotheoseGrifter> khazoth?
[12:30.24] <Azthor> I cannot part with Riesental or Cragenwaste or I lose the game.
[12:30.33] <Azthor> If, however, you want to talk about Dunmar, I am all hears.
[12:30.52] <apotheoseGrifter> well, in my hypothetical scenario, i wouldn't necessarily be taking cragenwaste
[12:31.05] <apotheoseGrifter> i'd just be preventing them from trying to push into sonneneve territory
[12:31.12] <Azthor> Do you realize what Vessoi is?
[12:31.20] <Azthor> Vessoi is a horde with hundreds of thousands of soldiers.
[12:31.33] <apotheoseGrifter> and they fear me, yes
[12:31.44] <Azthor> In your territory.
[12:31.45] <Azthor> Not theirs.
[12:32.20] <Azthor> They are a late game threat for everyone, so if you think you stand a chance, by all means, thank you.
[12:32.27] <Terenos> Hrmm
[12:32.29] <Azthor> But it is certainly not a given you will succeed.
[12:32.32] <Terenos> The shape of this is..dangerous
[12:33.00] <Azthor> Explain.
[12:33.14] <Terenos> Well.
[12:33.26] <Terenos> Let us say for the moment that some parts of our immediate objectives will cause...friction
[12:33.43] <Azthor> Cragenwaste then, obviously.
[12:33.51] <Azthor> As it is a former dwarven territory.
[12:33.56] <Terenos> Quite so
[12:34.09] <Azthor> Going by the configuration (...)
[12:34.19] <Azthor> Does it link the two mountainhomes through Riesental or Dunmar?
[12:34.28] <apotheoseGrifter> actually
[12:34.41] <Terenos> I didn't get like, a map of territory I have to claim
[12:34.52] <apotheoseGrifter> i thought cragenwaste was former elf territory...
[12:34.53] <Terenos> (Also someone needs to tell Ghaz that there is a border function in hexographer
[12:34.57] <apotheoseGrifter> it was mostly forest before, anyway
[12:35.18] <Terenos> So yes, I only have a rough idea of places I need to acquire, as initial objectives
[12:36.04] <Azthor> What is your major victory condition?
[12:36.13] <Terenos> I onl yhave immediate objectives.
[12:36.20] <Azthor> You know mine, as it is obvious.
[12:36.23] <Terenos> *Initial I mean
[12:36.35] <apotheoseGrifter> they change depending on what happens in-game, anyway
[12:36.42] <Azthor> I need to annex Dunmar and Dragonhold for a major victory.
[12:36.44] <Terenos> As we play, he did say new major/minor objectives will become noticed
[12:36.48] <Terenos> ...Damn son
[12:36.50] <Azthor> My immediate human neighbours for a minor.
[12:36.51] <Terenos> You got problems.
[12:36.59] <Azthor> I do not believe a major victory is possible.
[12:37.12] <Azthor> As I'd have to defeat two players.
[12:37.23] <Azthor> But I am not going to give up on a minor victory.
[12:37.29] <Terenos> Which two? You only have to defeat shoot..
[12:37.29] <Azthor> Simply put: I need Cragenwaste.
[12:37.39] <Azthor> You just said you wanted part of Dunmar.
[12:37.50] <apotheoseGrifter> so not just alliance?
[12:38.01] <Azthor> No.
[12:38.01] <Terenos> 'part' isnt all.
[12:38.03] <apotheoseGrifter> also, does it have to be all of the land or just the nation itself?
[12:38.18] <Azthor> What do you need of Cragenwaste?
[12:38.24] <Azthor> That is unknown, Deep.
[12:38.54] <Terenos> What was dwarven.
[12:39.22] <apotheoseGrifter> hm, that's finicky
[12:39.30] <Azthor> And how much of it is dwarven?
[12:39.33] <apotheoseGrifter> all the grey bits were formerly forest
[12:39.34] <Azthor> Or even inhabitable.
[12:39.41] <apotheoseGrifter> and thus probably belonged to elves
[12:39.48] <apotheoseGrifter> and khazoth currently belongs to orks
[12:39.57] <Terenos> Again I don't really have a map here..
[12:40.06] <apotheoseGrifter> who even knows whether it was originally theirs
[12:40.10] <Azthor> Since you don't inhabitate plains (...) does that mean you need the section near Brogen Hur?
[12:40.30] <Terenos> Maybe.
[12:40.39] <apotheoseGrifter> eh, just gonna have to ask ghaz
[12:40.40] <Azthor> If it is that small, we might be able to negotiate.
[12:40.45] <Terenos> But the question is what counts as say 'northern Foo'.
[12:41.00] <apotheoseGrifter> he'll never be able to hold that land tho
[12:41.01] <Terenos> And if my holding Northern Foo, effects your 'Hold Nation'
[12:41.21] <Azthor> We shall have to ask Ghaz that.
[12:43.07] <apotheoseGrifter> i wonder if there are any rocs in this setting
[12:43.15] <apotheoseGrifter> probably not, if there are no griffons
[12:43.37] <apotheoseGrifter> too bad; they're the only option i can think of for air transport
[12:44.14] <Terenos> Theres always a way.
[12:44.59] <apotheoseGrifter> i guess there's always SCIENCE
[12:45.08] <apotheoseGrifter> oops, sorry, i mean MAGIC
[12:46.07] <Azthor> Well then, I am off, we shall have this conversation again once we have more accurate information.
[12:46.10] <Azthor> Have a good night.
[12:46.28] <apotheoseGrifter> night
[12:47.17] <Terenos> Indeed
[12:53.30] <Terenos> Ahhhh diplomacy
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[06:22.30] <Ardas_> Morning
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[12:27.57] <@Shootandrun> Morning.
[12:28.47] <Terenos> Morning
[12:40.34] <Terenos> How are you shoot?
[12:53.05] <@Shootandrun> Fine; won't be here more than two hours, but still. Good to take a break.
[01:13.23] <Terenos> Always
[02:41.30] *** Server disconnected on irc.freenode.net
[02:42.37] Azthor resolved to 191.178.90.116
[02:42.37] * You have joined #yak4
[02:42.37] Topic: [20:15:15] <Azthor> My bed, secretary again.
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[02:42.37] Channel modes for #yak4 are :+n
[02:42.37] Channel Created on: 22:49 30/09/2012
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[02:53.04] * adwarf awaits the nation sheet telling him that he's clearly superior to those shitty people terenos' rules
[02:55.09] <Azthor> Is there to be a nation sheet?
[03:00.00] <Terenos> There is to be a nation sheet.
[03:01.41] <Terenos> Additional questions
[03:01.59] <Terenos> Lets say Player A has to take northern wherever. And player B has to hold all of that country
[03:02.08] <Terenos> Does that mean both Player A and B cannot achieve their objectives?
[03:05.49] <Ghaz> not at the same time no
[03:06.35] <Terenos> Well them.
[03:06.37] <Terenos> *then
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[03:46.31] <Terenos> So Az it looks like we are to be working at cross purposes
[04:00.09] <Azthor> Assuming you are completely unwilling to part on any of your objectives, yes.
[04:00.24] <Azthor> Though that would hardly be prudent.
[04:01.19] <Terenos> Well, I might part with some
[04:01.19] <Azthor> I am already potentially giving up on Dunmar, if you tell me you also intend to take Cragenwaste (...) well, you become a primary threat.
[04:01.24] <Terenos> Or put them off till later.
[04:01.36] <Azthor> I am already giving up on my major win conditions by not pushing Dunmar.
[04:01.49] <Terenos> 'giving up' pfft
[04:01.49] <Azthor> So I can't really give more space in negotiations.
[04:02.01] <Azthor> Yes, giving up.
[04:02.06] <Azthor> Admittedly, not out of kindness.
[04:02.10] <Terenos> No, you'll focus on your minor objectives and then with the full force of those nations, come marching north if you think its possible to claim a victory
[04:02.23] <Azthor> I doubt you and Shoot would allow me that chance.
[04:03.12] <Azthor> Though yes, if the two of you together cannot stop me, of course I'd try and take Dunmar and Dragonhold.
[04:03.17] <Azthor> Such is the game.
[04:03.49] <Azthor> The same as you wouldn't have second thoughts on aggressively taking Cragenhold right off if a direct war with a major faction like me weren't a dangerous move at the start.
[04:03.57] <Terenos> Yep.
[04:04.17] <Azthor> As it stands, however, simply rushing Cragenhold would harm me, but it would harm you just as much.
[04:04.24] <Azthor> You'd be looking at a 2x1 at the least.
[04:05.02] <Azthor> And if you lose (...) well, free land for me.
[04:05.12] <Azthor> At which stage you are stuck with a permanent resentful and very large foe.
[04:05.31] <Azthor> Even if you win (...) that is no guarantee neighbouring humans won't see it for what it is.
[04:06.59] <Terenos> A return to dwarven glory?
[04:07.24] <Azthor> A racial conflict.
[04:08.41] <Azthor> Putting me in a defensive conflict against you vastly bolsters my diplomatic influence in most of the map, so YMMV.
[04:08.48] <Terenos> Maybe.
[04:08.49] <Terenos> Maybe not.
[04:08.56] <Azthor> You are not a risk-taker.
[04:09.03] <Azthor> And you know what my policy is if I start to lose.
[04:09.12] <Terenos> MAD. Of course.
[04:11.26] <Terenos> But I'm not afraid of you.
[04:15.37] <Terenos> Powerful cavalry means nothing in hilly terrain, or forests.
[04:18.18] <Terenos> I have allies of my own.
[04:19.07] <Azthor> You don't benefit from either while invading me.
[04:22.59] <Terenos> Quite so.
[04:32.02] <Terenos> Well we'll see how it all comes down
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[05:29.45] <Terenos> Hey ag.
[05:29.56] <apotheoseGrifter> ey
[05:30.22] <Terenos> How goes?
[05:30.48] <apotheoseGrifter> alright
[05:32.12] <Terenos> Apparently we will get some nation sheets with 'all the info you require'
[05:32.39] <apotheoseGrifter> cool
[05:42.25] <Terenos> And then..WAR!
[05:42.45] <Terenos> "
[05:42.45] <Terenos> [11:13:53] <Terenos> Just found it interesting that apparently Az knows his win conditions already and I do not
[05:42.46] <Terenos> [11:23:26] <Ghaz> yeah that was a faux-pas on my side
[05:42.46] <Terenos> [11:23:42] <Ghaz> that damn lawyer tricked me into blabbering out all ze goals
[05:42.46] <Terenos> [11:23:55] <Ghaz> if you feel disadvantaged im willing to tell everyone his original line of goals
[05:42.46] <Terenos> [11:24:10] <Ghaz> mind az got only his original line, they might very well change
[05:42.46] <Terenos> [11:24:12] <Ghaz> during the game"
[05:42.47] <Terenos> Also this.
[05:43.13] <apotheoseGrifter> well
[05:43.14] <apotheoseGrifter> tbh
[05:43.21] <apotheoseGrifter> his win conditions were kind of obvious
[05:43.59] <apotheoseGrifter> maybe not in that much detail, but i guessed from the beginning that his goals would be to take back all the original imperial provinces
[05:46.29] <apotheoseGrifter> your goals are also not that hard to guess; it's just a matter of how extreme they are
[05:46.43] <apotheoseGrifter> i.e. taking back all the original dwarf land vs. driving off all human presence on the continent
[05:47.24] <apotheoseGrifter> i also thought he told me my long-term goals already, but i guess maybe it was just an example?
[05:48.11] <apotheoseGrifter> shoot's is the only one i can't guess off the bat, since his motivations are very "waiting for the one true king" and that doesn't seem like something he'd be keen on doing
[05:50.55] <Azthor> Tricked is a strong word.
[05:51.01] <Azthor> It came. Naturally.
[05:51.21] <Azthor> I wasn't told your goals, alas.
[05:51.54] <Terenos> Given diplomacy, I know some of shoot's goals, and he knows some of mine
[05:52.17] <Terenos> But things may change
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[05:55.52] <Terenos> Hey ardas_
[05:56.50] <Ardas_> hey
[05:57.22] <Terenos> Could you guys move this damn trial along!
[05:58.42] <Ardas_> Hey, I did all I could
[05:58.55] <Ardas_> I made it impossible for thme to defend
[05:58.57] <Terenos> Heh
[05:59.22] <Terenos> Eh no worries
[05:59.34] <Terenos> well, vaguely worried there will be a slight slowdown in things as a result
[06:07.03] <Ardas_> This is already slowed to a crawl and beleive me, I am as much interested in moving it along as you are
[06:17.34] <Terenos> Oh well, back to plotting out the Iron March
[06:40.33] <Terenos> ＋http://imgur.com/gallery/pe35SW1，
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[07:19.18] <Ghaz> Ardas_ as promised yak ahs been updated
[07:21.37] <Ardas_> I saw, cheers
[07:29.39] <Terenos> Oooooh
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[07:39.06] * ChanServ sets mode +o Shootandrun for #yak4
[07:39.12] <@Shootandrun> Hello, once more.
[07:46.50] *** Server disconnected on irc.freenode.net
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[07:48.08] Topic: [20:15:15] <Azthor> My bed, secretary again.
[07:48.08] Channel Topic Set by: Game_Master!~kvirc@modemcable095.66-176-173.mc.videotron.ca on 0:20 30/03/2015
[07:48.08] Channel modes for #yak4 are :+n
[07:48.09] Channel Created on: 22:49 30/09/2012
[07:48.30] <Terenos> Hello shoot
[07:48.35] * Azthor (~IceChat9@191.178.90.116) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[07:48.39] <Terenos> I got a document! WITH STUFF IN IT!
[07:49.43] <@Shootandrun> Ooooh! Can I have a document with stuff in it, Ghaz?
[07:50.07] <Ghaz> as soon as im done with azthors thingy
[07:50.16] <Ghaz> illsend you yours and ill explain some general stuff
[07:51.27] <Ghaz> mind all of you most of the info is subject to change
[07:51.32] <Ghaz> as im still tinkering with the balancing
[07:51.54] <Terenos> Of course