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  1. My list:
  2. https://conflictchamber.com/?cg201b_...oropogovogokou
  3. ```ini
  4. Infernal Army - 75 / 75 points
  5. [Theme] Dark Legacy (CID)
  6.  
  7. !!! This army contains CID entries.
  8. !!! This list is using a CID theme.
  9.  
  10. [Zaateroth 1] Zaateroth, The Weaver of Shadows [+28]
  11. - Foreboder [4]
  12. - Soul Stalker [13]
  13. - Tormentor [12]
  14. - Lord Roget d'Vyaros [4]
  15. Great Princess Regna Gravnoy [0(6)]
  16. Kezia Brand, The Screaming Night [4]
  17. Master Theurgist Gideon Asher [5]
  18. Mordecai, Master of Arms [5]
  19. The Wretch [4]
  20. Umbral Guardian [0(6)]
  21. Umbral Guardian [0(6)]
  22. Valin Hauke, The Fallen Knight [7]
  23. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  24. - Lord Adept Quintus Faustus [4]
  25. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  26. Howlers (max) [15]
  27. Infernal Gate [12]
  28. ```
  29.  
  30. His list:
  31.  
  32. https://conflictchamber.com/?c9201b_...fF5V6J6WhVhVmB
  33. ```ini
  34. Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points
  35. [Theme] Winds of Death
  36.  
  37. [Rasheth 1] Dominar Rasheth [+28]
  38. - Basilisk Krea [7]
  39. - Cyclops Raider [9]
  40. - Cyclops Shaman [8]
  41. - Cyclops Shaman [8]
  42. Extoller Soulward [0(3)]
  43. Extoller Soulward [0(3)]
  44. Mortitheurge Willbreaker [0(4)]
  45. Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
  46. Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
  47. Venator Flayer Cannon Crew [5]
  48. Venator Slingers (min) [8]
  49. Siege Animantarax [17]
  50. Siege Animantarax [17]
  51. Supreme Guardian [16]
  52. ```
  53.  
  54. Infernals won the roll for first turn and were given the top side.
  55.  
  56. Turn One:
  57. Stuff moved up to stay alive from the long threats of Rasheth. Regna cast Decel and hid behind the gate near Faustus. Faustus had 2 of his cultists kill each other for souls so he could camp 2 for Arcane Vortex. Zaateroth made a Desolator and Regna made a Shrieker. Scything Touch went on the Stalker and Rituals went up.
  58.  
  59. Rasheth ran up a slinger and tried to nuke the Shrieker into the ground, heavily damaging it with Sunder Spirits. He also cast Castigate. Things were out of range due to Long Shadows / positioning so Rasheth mostly just shimmied up also.
  60.  
  61. Turn Two:
  62. A Foreboder ran up. Zaateroth ran Mordecai up to near the enemy zone and turned him into a Desolator, making a cloud. Then she feated and cast Distraction on the Venator Cannon. Kezia ran into the cloud in Rasheth's zone alongside a Howler and the Foreboder. My army mostly shimmied behind the clouds and forest, projecting its long threat ranges to try and leverage scenario from next turn forward. I threatened to score both elements on my side of the table to make life a bit harder for Rasheth. Decel went up again. The Shrieker took a pot shot at the Shaman and managed to also do a point to the Guardian with Admonisher.
  63.  
  64. Well, Rasheth felt like he absolutely had to feat here. Slingers ran, opting not to make shots less placement get weird, and set up in position to arc. Rasheth unfortunately couldn't feat from too far up the table due to my long threats and him wanting to spend a lot this turn, but he still got my heavies and the models in my zone in the feat. He arced a Sunder onto Gideon on my flag (who wasn't in feat) and was also near the wall. He missed, rerolled and missed again, and Gideon barely moved from his place, preferring the safety of the wall. He then went for a Breath onto Kezia within 4" so it couldn't deviate off her. It landed and then Rasheth rolled a 4 for damage and she lived! Yay Deceleration. Unfortunate activation from Rasheth, admittedly. Weren't sure if we should CID rollback? Anyway, the rest of the turn went to the tune of a Turtle missing a charge swing on a Def 17 Kezia, my Howler and Foreboder getting crunched and my opponent opting not to contest my zone due to a lack of good models to do it with. The turtle that charged Kezia repositioned to contest my flag. Both Umbral Guardians were spawned in the melee and absorbed the worst of the feat gunfire, but died in the process.
  65.  
  66. 1-0 Infernals, due to the charmed life of Kezia and her Umbral Guardian friends.
  67.  
  68. Turn Three:
  69. Alright, time for a massive crackback. Due to my very long threat ranges and the gunline-y nature of Rasheth's army and it's inability to contest I decided we would make a large scenario push. Vengeance happened but nothing died, just positioning. If I could kill the Supreme Gentleman off the right flag, clear the turtle off my own flag and kill the few slingers and cyclops near the central flag I would win this turn. Sounded decent enough to attempt, the hardest bit would be doing it through Rasheth feat. But the plan also involved making attrition moves I wanted to make anyway, so I decided that's what I'd do. I kept both upkeeps. A Desolator assaulted the Supreme Guardian, just to apply the -2 armour. The Gate placed a bunch of models to get them into better positions. Gideon walked and Hex Blasted the Krea, removing the -2 ARM from the Turtle. The Soul Stalker charged the turtle on my flag, doing an okay amount of damage, but applying scything touch. Roget applied Ghost Walk to my other Desolator which charged the Turtle over the wall. When the dust settled I had two heavies on 0 and a Turtle on a handful of boxes. Zaateroth managed to finish it with her gun, then cycled scything touch onto the Tormentor on the far side and cast a Ghost Walk before finally turning Roget into a Desolator. Hauke and the Howlers cleared out the models near the central flag, with Hauke moving to stand on it. The Tormentor on the right had received a Warpath move and was now in range of the Supreme Guardian. Faustus ran up so that the Tormentor could reroll on the Guardian. The Tormentor charged in and left it on 3 boxes! Regna walked up, cast a Hellfire at it which was Arcane Vortexed. Woops. Then my Shrieker moved up to shoot the Guardian, managed to hit it and kill it. For what it's worth, I think I was really unlucky to not kill a 30 box Guardian (after the previous chip & assault spray) with a Scytouch Tormentor on 4 essence which used 2 rerolls to reroll naff damage dice. Anyway,
  70.  
  71. 5-0 Infernals!
  72.  
  73. Some thoughts:
  74.  
  75. In general I think this is a bad matchup for Rasheth. My shooting defenses are quite frontloaded, being predominantly in the form of a feat and Umbral Guardians / Decel (which heavily eats into my cultists if I use it too much). However, this is an extremely live scenario so I was able to use that to my advantage to close the game out on turn 3. I think if my opponent had run the Cyclops Shaman into my zone and it had survived the Countercharge from my Tormentor then we could have played a game but I would have been so far up on attrition and scenario it wouldn't have mattered. Had the scenario been less live Rasheth could have played for more cagily, held feat until after my feat was gone and just decimated my army. Or at least attempted to. We'd like to try this again on a less live scenario.
  76.  
  77. Red:
  78. Mirage: Just kidding, I know this isn't in scope for the CID but well. You know. *glances at middle flag*
  79.  
  80. Orange:
  81. Foreboders: Not the actual model but in terms of summoning. There is never a reason you'd want to summon a Foreboder. They sort of exist outside of the new summoning system. Perhaps some kind of rule where if you cast one you can cast a free spell, or you can summon them without using a Marked Soul, instead using any living non-soulless friendly model?
  82.  
  83. Soul Stalker: This is a very disappointing model. Stealth is not a particularly strong protection in the modern game of Warmachine. The best factions with the best guns to my mind at present are Crucible Guard, Protectorate and Skorne. They're the big top dog meta factions you need to worry about guns against. And all of them have very easy outs to Stealth. Most other shooty oriented factions have excellent outs to Stealth. In this game I was happy this model had pathfinder. I would absolutely rather have paid 1pt less and not used my full battlegroup points to have had another Tormentor instead. I don't understand what this model is playing a premium for? SPD7 is less relevant because it's so pillow fisted. Its "no souls" passive effect is on a very low CMD5. It's base mat is 6, and while yes we have coil this is a model that presumably wants to hit some infantry to collect souls, due to soul claiming? If so why is it RNG1 on both weapons with mat 6 and no rules like overtake or maybe even sprint or reposition? Compared to a Neraph it's pretty bad. This model needs a lot of help, I've been forcing myself to play / summon one to give feedback on it but at present I will pretty much only summon this if my opponent won't be able to deal with a Def 16 heavy on Zaateroth's feat.
  84.  
  85. Support Bloat/The Solo Problem: This is maybe a list building problem, I'm not sure. With the new system of summoning you don't want Infernals players to be summoning every turn, or if you do you want them to be bringing an army of solos and a lot of cultists to support it. Got it, that's cool. The new mechanic feels quite cool to use and I like making a choice as to which of my solos is least valuable to me in the game at a given time. However, summoning is still very powerful and I think you probably want to summon 4+ times a game, and almost certainly in turns 1, 2 and 3. If you don't you still don't feel very powerful attrition wise. This means that I've found I tend to bring the solos I want in a given matchup and then also some solos we're guaranteed going to kill. The Infernal Gate seems to be a new centrepiece to the army, roughly like the Death Knell. So we have probably 8-12pts of chaff solos, and our Gate. Then if we're bringing the Gate we honestly probably need to bring Hauke. Structures are a new model type in WMH and I get that it's still a work in progress, but they feel very clunky to play with and tactician helps so much with that. So when we take 8pts of solos, our gate and hauke we have spent 27pts on very little work. That's before cultists and other actual support! So what do we cut to fit this stuff? Well for me, it's the soulless units. I don't think either of them are particularly strong (I might get flak for saying that about Howlers but they haven't impressed me in any of my games) I think maybe a (very gentle) look at recosting the supports elements of Infernals alongside some more QoL buffs to Howlers and probably more like actual buffs to Grievers would mean a lot. After 2 days of just mashing Infernals games with the new rules my lists are starting to look a lot more like uhm:
  86.  
  87. https://conflictchamber.com/?cg201b_...oropogovogohou
  88. ```ini
  89. Infernal Army - 75 / 75 points
  90. [Theme] Dark Legacy (CID)
  91.  
  92. !!! This army contains CID entries.
  93. !!! This list is using a CID theme.
  94.  
  95. [Agathon 1] Agathon, The Voice in the Darkness [+28]
  96. - Desolator [14]
  97. - Foreboder [4]
  98. - Foreboder [4]
  99. - Shrieker [9]
  100. - Lord Roget d'Vyaros [4]
  101. Great Princess Regna Gravnoy [0(6)]
  102. Master Theurgist Gideon Asher [5]
  103. Mordecai, Master of Arms [5]
  104. The Wretch [4]
  105. The Wretch [4]
  106. Umbral Guardian [0(6)]
  107. Valin Hauke, The Fallen Knight [7]
  108. Cultist Band (min) [5]
  109. - Dark Sentinel (3) [0(6)]
  110. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  111. - Lord Adept Quintus Faustus [4]
  112. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  113. Griever Swarm (min) [8]
  114. Infernal Gate [12]
  115.  
  116. Infernal Army - 75 / 75 points
  117. [Theme] Dark Legacy (CID)
  118.  
  119. !!! This army contains CID entries.
  120. !!! This list is using a CID theme.
  121.  
  122. [Zaateroth 1] Zaateroth, The Weaver of Shadows [+28]
  123. - Desolator [14]
  124. - Desolator [14]
  125. - Foreboder [4]
  126. - Lord Roget d'Vyaros [4]
  127. Great Princess Regna Gravnoy [0(6)]
  128. Kezia Brand, The Screaming Night [4]
  129. Master Theurgist Gideon Asher [5]
  130. Mordecai, Master of Arms [5]
  131. The Wretch [4]
  132. The Wretch [4]
  133. Umbral Guardian [0(6)]
  134. Umbral Guardian [0(6)]
  135. Valin Hauke, The Fallen Knight [7]
  136. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  137. - Lord Adept Quintus Faustus [4]
  138. Cultist Band (max) [7]
  139. Griever Swarm (min) [8]
  140. Infernal Gate [12]
  141. ```
  142.  
  143. Wherein I'm bringing a token unit of Soulless models so I can use the Gate's recursion but otherwise I am just leaning really hard into the Summoning / Solo game. That's not necessarily a bad thing and a solo centric cult of demonic summoning is definitely cool! And I suspect we'll have a lot more reason to play our soulless units in Hearts of Darkness. I'm going to be writing 3 other reports up after this one where I'll mention a lot what I didn't especially like about Howlers or Grievers, but I think we need a bit more incentive to take those units. Take it with a pinch of salt though, it's been a couple days and obviously we're nowhere close to refined top competitive Infernals Builds, this is just my gut feeling.
  144.  
  145. Yellow:
  146. Howlers: Not surprising considering my feedback above. I feel like these models have okay defensive stats (although I personally am abysmal at passing tough on them) and they come back from the gate so they're generally around. However I'm consistently let down by their output. I feel like I always have to buff their mat AND hitting power to really get through infantry with them, which isn't something Infernals excel at. And then when it comes to hitting heavies they're just less efficient than our battlegroup options off the back of pow 13. Still need a small tweak up I think.
  147.  
  148. Valin Hauke: Okay so Tactician Everything and Brother's keeper are excellent and powerful rules. However this model cost 7 with Long Shadows and, when you're basically sellotaped to this model if you want a gate then he feels like quite a bitter pill to swallow. Perhaps making him 6pts? He doesn't have a dismount and can't buy attacks or anything, something to keep in mind.
  149.  
  150. Faustus: Very powerful if niche model but using him, Regna and obviously a master in the same list really eats through your cultists in a hurry. That's maybe by design but I think, considering the low offensive output of this model and the fact that to really use his abilities you generally have to kill 2+ of your own cultists over the course of a game (usually right at the start to be fair) he could probably be 3pts.
  151.  
  152. Kezia: I'm sure you have a lot of feedback on this model as I saw Jeff talking specifically about her in another thread. That being said, this model needed more than Quick Work. Didn't really come up at all in this game but I have 3 other reports coming and well, yeah, it's nearly a non rule on her. In this game she did basically no work, just was a SPD7 high Def model with pathfinder and acrobatics which was fine.
  153.  
  154. The Gate: Okay so, this is a weird model. Giving it a threat extender means it's a very powerful piece in Infernals. Infernals are now a faction that burns out very quickly (around Turn 5 in my experience) but has decently survivable models and long threat ranges. The Gate kind of plays into that. It brings a bit of longevity to your non soulless models and it has a gun that it might sometimes use like twice a game or something but most importantly it brings threat ranges to all your models. Combined with the threat ranges increases all masters have now it makes Infernals a very fast faction. I think this makes the Gate like the Knell in Grymkin, as I mentioned earlier. It's a cheapish platform that's got very good rules and is very resilient for its cost. However! Structures are worse than Battle Engines. A lot worse. The primary reason for that is they can't move. Maybe obvious but being literally immobile is a massive weakness. Especially when you're going second. You have to deploy this model in front of your army, and it wants to be in the centre. Your army then has to move past it or you bring Hauke. I think you basically have to bring Hauke if you bring this thing, it makes your QoL so much higher. As opposed to the Knell, which can sit its massive base behind the Grymkin army and then trundle up behind it as it moves, this is a lot better. In addition, regarding the Gate, if you go second you get some extra distance to put it up, however in my experience my opponent's are often able to threaten gates top of 2 if I deploy on 18. And if your opponent moves to exact threat from your Structure you have no option to moesy back 0.5". Meaning I have to deploy it further back. It also cannot ever contest central locations nor can it control any element ever. So you're paying points for models that will never ever be scenario relevant. For safety I find it's usually 15 or less (sometimes much less if I'm second) up the table. This means a RNG12 gun isn't really feasible. Don't get me wrong, I think this is an excellent piece and currently the absolute core of Infernals, but there are some usability issues with Structures I'd like to see addressed, and specifically with the Gate I don't think RNG12 is good enough.
  155.  
  156. Green:
  157. The Rest: I really do think we're nearly there with Infernals. They feel fun and unique, and have a very cool way of playing out a game of Warmachine that I'm enjoying tremendously. Excellent work and lets hopefully not let up in the last couple days of CID.
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