angelgotch
#4436
Maerwen, AutumnWyvern

angelgotch added AutumnWyvern to the group.Today at 11:43 AM
angelgotch - Today at 4:32 PM
ok so like
yall know how we had that snake problem recently
AutumnWyvern - Today at 4:32 PM
ya
Maerwen - Today at 4:32 PM
Yeah
angelgotch - Today at 4:38 PM
ive been mulling this over for a lil bit but finally got my thoughts gathered and gathered the courage to like, talk to yall abt it.
bc i dont wanna come off as two faced or anything.
idk if it was revealed who it was in the server or just to me privately
so i maybe shouldnt have but i needed to know but i talked to the person who was doing it
and like
they seem earnest about this to me:
they told me they originally joined the server just to join the server, but they got really uncomfortable at some of the discussions around mina, and thats why they leaked the convos. and it got me thinking about it and like, i wanted to recheck everything and see like
maybe its nothing, but it never hurts to make sure we're not circlejerking
and they pointed out specific things that bothered them and why
and ill list those off too for posteritys sake (one was the doxxing, which ive already told autumn i do think mina had a right to be mad about but i dont agree w how they reacted esp the insults)
but the main thing thats bugging me is like
one of the most recent posts in brine
and this didnt rlly occur to me until they pointed it out
and i feel rlly stupid and kind of shitty bc i hopped right on the train with it so this sounds hypocritical coming from me
but like
regardless whether minas history is true or not, i think it's kind of fucked up takumi approached someone who as far as they knew (and know) was a violent cult abuser
to talk to them about mina, the alleged victim
and took what they said on face value. no evidence. just a testimony.
bc ppl accused of abuse never lie right

like im not saying i believe them or disbelieve them and whatever conclusions yall wanna draw is your business
i just. when i thought about it the idea of approaching ur SO's abuser, while ur dating them, to talk about them (esp negatively) and then taking their say on faith is kind of like, OBJECTIVELY fucked up, and in retrospect like.
ok autumns our token singlet but everyone in there was pretty familiar with trauma
and it kind of bothers me how we were quick to either accept or at least not question the idea of takumi just
doubting trauma history to begin with, but going so far as to approaching this person, and keeping in contact with them.

thats just my first point but id like that to get digested and thoughts on it first before i move on
Maerwen - Today at 4:51 PM
Uhhhh I'm at the barber rn so I'm leaving a message just to say I saw this and I'm not ignoring
angelgotch - Today at 4:54 PM
ok! take all the time u need
i had all morning to word this out in my head so im in no hurry
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:14 PM
it is kinda messed up but i think we were all kind of swept up in it because like, iirc, at that point it was already becoming very blatant that mina wasn't... being a particularly nice person to say the least and so we were more inclined to just accept anything that confirmed that
angelgotch - Today at 5:18 PM
yeah that was kind of how i felt about it too like.
i feel like we let the brine channel get rlly out of hand. it turned from venting into a bit if a circlejerk and ultimately its kinda... dehumanising? like no one has to LIKE mina or take their side but i feel like the way weve been regarding them is like
not making us the bigger person to say the least.

like the doxxing issue... i get that ppl view it as a private server, but the link is public rn and the thing was posted in salty, not brine. anyone who got a plano role would be able to see it.
which i figure at the time we probs didnt think much of it bc the servers so quiet and its been just us for a while so like
we viewed it as more private than it actually was
and werent careful about where sensitive info was placed.
that issue is p cut and dry so that mini paragraph is rlly all i have to add to that one

ill give yall a sec to consider while i try to process my brain zaps into words for this last bit bc
its one of the ones the snake pointed out to me
that i didnt think anything of
until they mentioned it, described why it bothered them, and gave me a few screencaps to back it up.
(and also i should probs wait for mara to return oops)
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:22 PM
yeah at the time it was private, or at least no one had joined in like 5ever, so no one thought anything of it. It has been vaporized now...

vent/negativity channels in general have a tendency to get nast if you aren't careful, thats why a few servers im in dont have one
angelgotch - Today at 5:26 PM
yeah its
gotten out of hand
and part of why im having this conversation is bc like
it sketched me out, i wanted opinions, and also i feel
rlly guilty tbh?
bc regardless of who it was directed at some of the shit i actively participated in was ugly
and neither of yall were ever super vocal in there so like
this is kind of a 'are we on the same page here' call like context and target aside should we clock ourselves on issues that were  objectively out of line.
yfm
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:27 PM
ye
sometimes u gotta take a step back. tho it feels like things are settling down now
angelgotch - Today at 5:30 PM
yeah im really hoping theyre going to stop completely soon
but even so perspective is important
and theres always a chance of escalating
and if it does escalate we gotta know where we stand and be able to draw lines in the sand bc friends dont let friends do ugly things
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:31 PM
[nods]
tho it seems as though theyve finally blocked eachother and we know that takumi has upped their therapy sessions and is also planning on doing ect which sounds scary but hey if it helps...
Maerwen - Today at 5:34 PM
Just got caught up but yeah I agree that we all kinda got caught up in the emotions and all that and we should've been more careful and everything
I think I've told Remi in the past that while I do side more w them than Mina I don't exactly agree w everything they do
Maybe not in those words but yeah, and I think what you said brought up something I wasn't comfy w but wasn't sure how to express it
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:38 PM
it certainly isnt something that i feel like should be sprung up unprompted in the main server esp given the Situation, but should be like brought up only in the case if someone starts gettin out of line again
we all gotta be better
Maerwen - Today at 5:39 PM
Yeah, I'm usually better about it but I guess this was a weirder and worse sitch than usual
angelgotch - Today at 5:41 PM
if it helps it helps and i hope it does.
my concerns (besides the last one ill tackle when mara gets back) mainly stem from like
1. im worried takumi's paranoia will lead them to escalate the situation over stuff that could genuinely be coincidental (like, the snaking thing-- it was reassuring to find out that no one was sent to the server, and this person was in there on their own and then approached mina bc they were uncomfortable with what was going on)

2. im really concerned about them continuing to talk to the cult person bc like. theyve posted more than one log, have been speaking to them since december.
and that worries me bc this is like, a potentially very dangerous person (who probably isnt very pleased w mina) hanging around a very emotionally fragile person (who i know is upset at mina) and thats a risky combo. my biggest worry is that, if im being honest, im worried theyll add that person to the server and give them access to the channel, bc again whether u like mina or not if their stories about this person are even half true theres a lot of sensitive info in there that i wouldnt want a possible stalker having. esp since like.
i dont know if this was ever posted in the main server but it was pmed to me, back in december when remi first approached that person i reread it and realised that they, maybe accidentally, did specify that mina had moved back to texas.
which, again, isn't something i'd be comfortable informing a suspected stalker who knew mina irl.
oh theres mara
Maerwen - Today at 5:41 PM
Henlo
angelgotch - Today at 5:42 PM
and yeah like i feel like it was rlly easy to get caught up defending a friend and no one ever wants to invalidate venting so like
things gradually turned into this circlejerk and like eventually i feel like we kinda stopped viewing mina as a person. with like. rights and privacy and stuff.

which brings me to my third point (aka the one the snake brought up)
im assuming it was in salty bc they saw it but it might have been in brine. im not sure. dont feel like checking. if its the former tho i cant double check logs, so we're working from memory here.

remember that ryo kin essay mina wrote that remi posted for us?
AutumnWyvern - Today at 5:44 PM
vaguely if im being honest
Maerwen - Today at 5:44 PM
I know of it
angelgotch - Today at 5:46 PM
i checked, its in brine. you can find it by searching 'crybaby ryo' in the searchbar

but i screenshotted the presentation bc thats the important part here
https://i.gyazo.com/57ee9e2e000f40285f45660bb7062824.png

this was given to us like this. the presentation kind of implies that like. this was meant to be published, maybe on tumblr or something. and we (me remi and gus rather) all poked fun at it saying it was extra
and like
critiquing how intersexism is addressed in it (the commentary mainly being 'i feel like this is dishonest bc it feels like mina is implying their condition is visible when its hormonal')
which would be valid
if it was a public document. like we thought it was.

yeah turns out it was a private diary entry given to remi in confidence. it was not meant to be seen by anyone else and was never published. i have screencaps to prove this if anyone wants them bc i know taking things mina or their friends say on faith might not be something anyone in that chat is willing to do. on request ill make an imgur album.

now making fun of a diary entry alone is like, dickish, but that's not the biggest problem here.
the problem pointed out to me was, despite this taking place in the actual private channel, there were still like
several of us in there.
i dont remember who all was in there but i know it was us, gus, and at least a couple others. i have no idea how well anyone involved knew mina, but i would assume no one in there was fond of them (besides the snakes) based on the fact they got saltine roles in the first place.

and that essay described in explicit detail mina's trauma history, ntm outed them as intersex (which, i think they were/are public about that anyway but still), and was presented to an unknown party (us) without mina's knowledge or consent and without the intended context.

which, in retrospect (yes, speaking as someone who was the biggest ass about all of this) was a massive invasion of privacy. again, dehumanising. fucked. no one thought anything of it at the time (probably again a combo of emotional vitriol and how the essay was presented) but in retrospect i felt so bad about that that i literally apologised to mina about it (since they already knew about it) bc i participated in it so heavily.
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:01 PM
Tbh I don’t think I actually read it but yeah i was under the impression it was like a public thing
Maerwen - Today at 6:01 PM
Same
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:01 PM
like even when you brought it up i was assuming it was a readmore tumblr post lmao
angelgotch - Today at 6:02 PM
probs best you dont, in the screencaps mina made it very clear they didnt want other ppl seeing it. so if you havent read it, you probably shouldnt. just as a retroactive respect thing
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:02 PM
yeee
Maerwen - Today at 6:02 PM
I kinda assumed it was something Mina asked Remi to proofread or something
I try not to touch the kin stuff
Cuz like
I'm not kin
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:03 PM
i think i saw the convo mostly after it happened bc of class so i never bothered
angelgotch - Today at 6:03 PM
yeah like
honestly im rlly uncomfortable with that bc like
remi KNEW this wasnt meant for public before they shared it.

also yall might have even skipped over most of it bc i think me and remi got Into It pretty close after it was posted and thats always awkward and terrible for everyone
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:06 PM
i think the moral of the story is.
hey.
take a step back sometimes before you go ripping on someone, because even if they are being a jerk they may not be being That much of a jerk
angelgotch - Today at 6:12 PM
https://imgur.com/a/KL6qH no one requested but theres the caps anyway bc
i feel like it gives context to why this is putting a bad taste in my mouth.
first 2 are directly relevant, middle is some kind of mild back and forth, but the last one is relevant again so i felt like the full set should be included for posterity. timestamps show they were explicitely told this was a private, never published essay a week and a half before showing it to us anyway. im finding that kind of uncool
Maerwen - Today at 6:13 PM
In general, their relationship was
Not healthy
I think
I think they both ended up being really shitty towards one another
And a lot of what they said to each other and what they did is indefensible
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:16 PM
everything kind of exploded into a big messy mess that got everywhere
angelgotch - Today at 6:16 PM
valid stance
which is good, i think its good we're willing to like
take a step back and make sure defending friend doesnt become enabling friend

i have a few ideas for what to do w this moving forward
and a few things im stumped on
Maerwen - Today at 6:17 PM
I started getting uncomfy maybe a week before they broke up but honestly I wasn't sure what it was or even how to approach it
And yeah?
angelgotch - Today at 6:25 PM
honestly ill admit after seeing the verbal abuse on minas end i was kind of blinded emotionally like
again im approaching yall but looking back im p sure i was the harshes contributor to the channel besides remi themselves. maybe worse at times.
so i kind of figured that if this wasnt me overthinking, maybe presenting it to yall would be a wake up call too.
bc i know i didnt even rlly like, consider it until the snoop pointed it out to me and i had to like
calmly think about it.

but yeah my ideas thus far:
-i kind of want to convince remi to remove the document. commentary can be kept most of its mine anyway and yall know i like to archive shit i say (even if its shit i regret) but i feel leaving the document up, even if its only visible to us rn, is disrespectful. we removed the home address post, so we can remove this.
-next time remi starts posting sensitive info (if they do) we need to put a foot down, remind them mina is a person too, nice or not.
-leading off of the latter, i'd kind of like to stealthily try to get this to stop escalating. this means we shouldnt feed the paranoia bear. idk if theyll take the opinions or not, but i think if a situation arises like the recent one (w the ppl who joined the server but turned out to be normal) instead of being like 'yeah its probably mina' we should maybe try to lead towards the 'its probably a coincidence' possibility, for the sake of their peace of mind, bc ive noticed typically when they escalate its often in response to a perceived action on minas part, usually something that, while fishy, could (and from what ive been told, genuinely was) just unfortunate coincidence. if we want the mess to die we gotta stop feeding it.

now what im stumped on:
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:28 PM
it'd probably be best for you to ask about removing the document, since you were, as you said, the most involved

the other stuff im sure all of us could do no problem. and we were certainly feeding the paranoia bear but it was weird as helll
angelgotch - Today at 6:32 PM
-i would honestly like to say something about approaching the cultist bc like. thats a really alarming action (the most alarming one to me) and is a possible genuine safety hazard for both remi AND mina, but i have no idea how to approach the situation. its very difficult to like, critique their behaviours rn bc im worried itll lead to another meltdown or make them paranoid that weve turned on them or something.
-in general, im worried that the sudden mindfulness when we were previously quiet about these things would also have the same issue. i have no idea how to approach any of this without it being interpreted as a betrayal.

and yeah like the timing was immensely odd to the point where i really did ask mina if they sent anyone. tho tbh i still think mista mightve been behind it bc of the DV thing happening at the same time. just, according to them, if someone was in there for malicious intent it wasnt on their behalf.

and yeah i can ask about the doc personally since yall werent rlly involved w it and like
im gonna have to explain to them how i got to this conclusion
and i think im the only one who knew who the snakes turned out to be bc i dont remember them specifying in the server itself.
but for that reason id also like to politely ask if yall would be comfortable w me mentioning it in server rather than over pm
Maerwen - Today at 6:32 PM
Yeah I still don't know who the snake is
angelgotch - Today at 6:32 PM
this is a dead fragile situation and got knows im hamhanded at times
Maerwen - Today at 6:33 PM
And I'm fine w it
Don't put them f they only told u
angelgotch - Today at 6:33 PM
so i dont wanna have to confront them one on one in case they freak out about it
which i mean
i feel is reasonable.
Maerwen - Today at 6:33 PM
Yeah that makes sense
I'd say so long as we word it carefully then it'll be fine
Like
angelgotch - Today at 6:34 PM
theyre rlly paranoid about this whole situation and w the DV and newbie incidents i feel the paranoia has been fanned so im a bull trying really hard to not fuck up this china shop
Maerwen - Today at 6:35 PM
"Hey I know this is a big problem w you but it's also putting me on edge and it feels like it's unhealthy for you to dwell on this"
"We care about your emotional health and doing this won't help you out, we want you to get better and move on"
If you're ever scared of how you word things, you can just like
Double check w us I guess?
And vice versa
To make sure it doesn't come off as really aggressive
angelgotch - Today at 6:36 PM
absolutely
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:37 PM
yeah, tho like i said i think bringing up the cultist thing would be best handled if it like comes up again
it would seem too weird out of the blue(edited)
Maerwen - Today at 6:37 PM
Yeah
angelgotch - Today at 6:37 PM
theyre at work rn so
i think ill ask them
either later tonight or tomorrow
depending on when i pass out im running on fumes if im being honest
Maerwen - Today at 6:37 PM
If they say they're still in contact w [REDACTED] or whatever her name is
I'd say we should tell them to stop talking w her(edited)
angelgotch - Today at 6:38 PM
yeah like
i missed an opportunity abt that
bc they DID rlly recently bring them up (like march 20 something) but now its been like a week or two so finally responding to it might be odd
but i think maybe i could pull it off if i was like
'this was bugging me and i couldnt put my finger on why until now'
Maerwen - Today at 6:38 PM
Yeah I like just realized why it bothered me
That whole convo w them was like
Unsubstantiated?
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:38 PM
i mean tbh takumi only ever mentions them in these contexts so im not too concerned about them getting added to the server, but being more careful should be brought up at the very least the next time it happens
Maerwen - Today at 6:39 PM
So I'm also a bit hesitant to believe them
But I didn't realize it was that that put me off
Yeah
Tbh the sooner they can move past this the better for all parties involved
Which will be hard but
As their friends we should try to help out w that
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:40 PM
and moving past even means no more shit talking
which is by far gonna be the hardest part haha
angelgotch - Today at 6:40 PM
yeah im just worried about it bc
again, if anything mina said about them is true
were dealing with a physically dangerous, abusive cultist stalker
speaking one on one with remi who is, again, in a pretty fragile state.
and im really really worried where that train will end up at if it keeps going
Maerwen - Today at 6:40 PM
Yeah, we need them to stop dwelling on it as much as possible
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:41 PM
yeah it should more be approached in both the "this person could still be dangerous we dont really know that" and the "you gotta stop dwelling on this" angles
Maerwen - Today at 6:41 PM
If they refuse to stop, I think they're reasonable enough to have like
One of us present to talk to them
And move them away from talking to [REDACTED] or whatever her name is
angelgotch - Today at 6:42 PM
yeah i think so too.
sorry to really be pushing that issue you know how i worry and like
i feel like itd be real easy for that to turn into a manipulation issue
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:42 PM
i think it should be fine though, like going forward
we all got our heads on straight
the two of 'em blocked each other finally
an so on
Maerwen - Today at 6:42 PM
Yeah, god I feel bad because I felt like I could've been more proactive
But irl stuff
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:42 PM
yeah its reasonable to be concerned but we cant be Too pushy or else it would seem weird
angelgotch - Today at 6:42 PM
tru tru
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:43 PM
just like next time it comes up like "hey are you sure you should be talking so much with someone who may or may not like still be really nasty"
angelgotch - Today at 6:44 PM
so basically as long as we discourage future dwelling, ill address the issue of the document, and we can either address [REDACTED] when she comes up next or i can bring it up like i mentioned
my heart says the latter but my head knows autumns idea is smoother
Maerwen - Today at 6:44 PM
I was gonna tackle it from the angle of "yeah this sounds shit but are there like any other perspectives on it"
"I'm not sure if I trust the opinion of an alleged abuser without proof"
"Even if the person they abused is a shit person"
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:44 PM
if you are already bringing up the document it'd rpobably would be best to wait on the [REDACTED] issue, even if its a lil bit
angelgotch - Today at 6:44 PM
u right
Maerwen - Today at 6:44 PM
Yeah
I'm just
H
I'm kinda stressing about some things and I don't wanna hurt Remi
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:45 PM
things have calmed down enough that we can take baby steps
its better to ease ppl into something than dogpile a bunch of issues on all at once.
angelgotch - Today at 6:46 PM
im def being antsy abt it bc this shit got me fucked up yknow
like this all kind of hit me last night bc i was awake and thinking (as i do) and digesting it was
hard to swallow to say the least
Maerwen - Today at 6:46 PM
I agree
It's fine
We all messed up
Just gotta accept that and help out the bet we can
AutumnWyvern - Today at 6:46 PM
yea be antsy about it here, let it all out
just shoot somethin by us first if you are unsure since we dont wanna do anything rash