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FBFishslap

#fuckmarie

Feb 22nd, 2017
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  1. [5:27 PM] Jingles Ischa: i mean, there's degrees of good writing. when i use "mary sue", it's purely in the obvious wish-fulfillment, "the world bends around me" sense.
  2. [5:28 PM] Nicole Ariana: which is lazy
  3. [5:28 PM] Flynn Varren: So Marie?
  4. [5:28 PM] Jingles Ischa: yeah, actually! :V
  5. [5:28 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Marie Sue?
  6. [5:28 PM] Game Boy: Airhorns.
  7. [5:28 PM] Jingles Ischa: never have i seen such an obvious focus group appeal character in my life.
  8. [5:28 PM] Alphonze Morris: but marie needs to be louder and everyone needs to talk about her when she is not around
  9. [5:29 PM] Jingles Ischa: dude, the moment i did one of her non-rank up scenes after you assemble the whole party and saw just the whole party suddenly assemble to chat it up, i wanted to snap my vita in half
  10. [5:29 PM] Shadaku Fusinata: Hiya guys and gals :3
  11. [5:30 PM] Jingles Ischa: the only case of writer waifuing i've seen that was more blatant than this was oreshika forcing you to summon nueko to even DO the story bosses
  12. [5:30 PM] Game Boy: Its added content that you can only get with Golden! I swear its not fluff!
  13. [5:30 PM] Morgana Shirogane: i want to play golden but i have no vita
  14. [5:30 PM] Alphonze Morris: The only thing I like about marie is her disign and her voice actress and how she is in arena ultimax
  15. [5:31 PM] Alphonze Morris: import a vita tv its cheaper
  16. [5:31 PM] Asmal Lesher: golden was what P3P was to P3.
  17. [5:31 PM] Asmal Lesher: extra content for shiggles.
  18. [5:31 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Ehhh
  19. [5:31 PM] Zestrion Grendall: no
  20. [5:31 PM] Flynn Varren: Not even
  21. [5:32 PM] Game Boy: Uhh...
  22. [5:32 PM] Asmal Lesher: imeanmyopinioniswrongbut
  23. [5:32 PM] Asmal Lesher: shutup
  24. [5:32 PM] Flynn Varren: As long as you admit it.
  25. [5:32 PM] Asmal Lesher: personally that's just how I felt on both games.(edited)
  26. [5:32 PM] Game Boy: Sleep with one eye open. The golden boys are coming to get ye.
  27. [5:33 PM] Jingles Ischa: P3P was the writers trying to fix their mistakes. This is especially obvious when you look at who all got new s. links in it and what links they replaced
  28. [5:33 PM] Jingles Ischa: Akihiko and Shinjiro's links both expanded on characters who didn't get enough characterization in the base game, and replaced two s.links that everyone agreed were poor quality.
  29. [5:33 PM] Jingles Ischa: Ryoji's link was similar, though I'd argue the link he replaced wasn't all that poor quality. But his expands on a character who BADLY needed the extra writing.
  30. [5:34 PM] Asmal Lesher: it never solved the mystery.
  31. [5:34 PM] Asmal Lesher: of if shinji saw that.
  32. [5:35 PM] Jingles Ischa: P4G, on the other hand? Cash grab. Blatant cash grab. Give me a second to elaborate before anyone cuts in.
  33. [5:36 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Well it is.
  34. [5:36 PM] Jingles Ischa: P3P's added content was, for the most part, introducing a lot of P4's quality of life improvements to P3 to make the game a more balanced experience.
  35. [5:36 PM] Alphonze Morris: + a hole other story
  36. [5:36 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Also Minako :heart:
  37. [5:37 PM] Game Boy: Also doors of memories.
  38. [5:37 PM] Jingles Ischa: P4, on the other hand, was a pretty well balanced game. It didn't really need the remake beyond bringing it to another gen. Unfortunately, Atlus got acquired by Index. And P4 had started to hit cash cow territory.
  39. [5:37 PM] Jingles Ischa: The thing is, P4, being an SMT game, was still pretty difficult for newbie players to get into. Which is why most of P4's battle system additions are geared toward breaking it over your knee.
  40. [5:38 PM] Alphonze Morris: wait atlus was owned by indext pre p3
  41. [5:38 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Thing is, even if it's a cash grab, they did put enough effort into making new stuff or improving that it made it worth it in the end
  42. [5:38 PM] Jingles Ischa: No, no, they were acquired between the release of Devil Survivor and Devil Survivor 2
  43. [5:38 PM] Morgana Shirogane: tbh persona 4 got the ff7 syndrome pretty quickly
  44. [5:38 PM] Alphonze Morris: only thing missin is a kart racer
  45. [5:38 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: Honestly, I'll always say that P3 had better character development than P4
  46. [5:38 PM] Asmal Lesher: persona 4, karting all night.
  47. [5:39 PM] Alphonze Morris: Yukari aside yeah
  48. [5:39 PM] Jingles Ischa: So essentially, Index wanted those hot teenage otaku bucks. Which is why P4G's additions fall along two themes
  49. [5:39 PM] Flynn Varren: And then SHE was born
  50. [5:40 PM] Jingles Ischa: 1) Making the battle system easy as sin. Doing Rise's social link at all basically means you get free buffs all the goddamn time.
  51. 2) Making the game more appealing to focus groups.
  52. [5:40 PM] Alphonze Morris: yeh p4g was pretty easy
  53. [5:40 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Granted P3P giving you Direct Command made the game not hard either.
  54. [5:40 PM] Jingles Ischa: And it is that SECOND point where the grand majority of my complaints lie. P4 did a really, really good job of showing off the small town atmosphere that they were going for. Even the character designs really pointed toward that (Chie's is a great example of this).
  55. [5:41 PM] Morgana Shirogane: if it wasnt for p3p being a thing i wouldnt have given p3 a chance
  56. [5:41 PM] Jingles Ischa: Not only that, but even though a lot of the characters fell under some pretty anime archetypes, there's a touch of subtlety to how they're characterized that i've always really appreciated.
  57. [5:42 PM] Jingles Ischa: Which is why you can immediately tell when you've entered a scene that is new in P4G, because that subtlety goes RIGHT out the window. The entire "let's get bikes so we can hit on chicks in okina city" subplot comes to mind.
  58. [5:42 PM] Jingles Ischa: As well as the "hey, let's go have a k-on type concert on the junes roof because we need to use this insert song we made for the anime" subplot.
  59. [5:42 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Rise is more perverted in Golden scenes.(edited)
  60. [5:42 PM] Alphonze Morris: fanservice
  61. [5:43 PM] Jingles Ischa: And then there's Marie.
  62. [5:44 PM] Nicole Ariana: i like marie tho....
  63. [5:44 PM] Nicole Ariana: i like the poetry
  64. [5:44 PM] Flynn Varren: That is fine
  65. [5:44 PM] Flynn Varren: I do not however
  66. [5:44 PM] Flynn Varren: And I will proceed to shit on her unapologeticly
  67. [5:44 PM] Game Boy: I felt like I read a proposal to an anime archetype and trope master thesis.
  68. [5:44 PM] Jingles Ischa: Marie is a scene girl tsundere, the whole party loves her (and get unique introduction scenes with her in every rank up until about rank 5), gets her first appearance in a scene that was originally all about you and the Dojimas, and turns out to be the crux around which the whole plot revolves around.(edited)
  69. [5:45 PM] Jingles Ischa: She reads like she was written by fucking focus group testing.
  70. [5:45 PM] Alphonze Morris: she really feels tacked in(edited)
  71. [5:45 PM] Alphonze Morris: neato dungeon aside
  72. [5:46 PM] Flynn Varren: Everytime she shows up I always end up saying "Go fuck yourself, Marie." under my breath
  73. [5:46 PM] Nicole Ariana: aw
  74. [5:46 PM] Nicole Ariana: well
  75. [5:46 PM] Nicole Ariana: i mean i am a shitty anime character
  76. [5:46 PM] Morgana Shirogane: iv only really came across marie in persona q and arena ultimax so i havent really experienced what shes like
  77. [5:47 PM] Game Boy: You're not missing much.
  78. [5:47 PM] Jingles Ischa: ^
  79. [5:47 PM] Nicole Ariana: oh wait isnt she required for the true ending?
  80. [5:47 PM] Alphonze Morris: in ultimax she is alright she has a cool gimmick other then that still meh
  81. [5:47 PM] Jingles Ischa: She is not required to get true ending.
  82. [5:47 PM] Jingles Ischa: She is however required to get the extra month, which you need to get people's third tier Personas.
  83. [5:48 PM] Jingles Ischa: And to get access to her dungeon and the valentines scenes
  84. [5:48 PM] Game Boy: She's literally a content wall of extra fluff.
  85. [5:48 PM] Jingles Ischa: However, if you do the extra month, they add in an extra insult during the final boss fight, WHICH I WILL EXPLAIN IN #spoilers
  86.  
  87. -in #spoilers-
  88.  
  89. [5:48 PM] Flynn Varren: Alright, lay it on me(edited)
  90. [5:49 PM] Zestrion Grendall: My body is ready(edited)
  91. [5:49 PM] Jingles Ischa: So you know how during the Izanami boss fight she basically tries to kill you and you get the will to go on because of your social links?
  92. [5:49 PM] Euphraim Renard: Yea.
  93. [5:49 PM] Flynn Varren: Yep
  94. [5:50 PM] Jingles Ischa: In P4 Vanilla, the last social links you will see in this chain, assuming you finished them, are Dojima and Nanako.
  95. [5:50 PM] Jingles Ischa: In P4G, it's Marie. She appears RIGHT after Nanako.
  96. [5:50 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: ...
  97. [5:50 PM] Alphonze Morris: gets inserted instory
  98. [5:50 PM] Flynn Varren: : /
  99. [5:50 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: you're fucking kidding me
  100. [5:50 PM] Jingles Ischa: This carries an implicit implication that she's supposed to be on equal importance emotionally, if not greater, than the Dojimas.
  101. [5:50 PM] Jingles Ischa: OH BUT IT GETS BETTER.
  102. [5:51 PM] Nicole Ariana: okay i didnt know that and now i do not like marie as much
  103. [5:51 PM] Nicole Ariana: that is baaaaaaaaaad
  104. [5:51 PM] Jingles Ischa: After you beat Izanami-no-Okami, you get one last scene in the Velvet Room.
  105. [5:51 PM] Flynn Varren: And you get to stab her
  106. [5:51 PM] Jingles Ischa: The big reveal that happens there? Marie is not some offshoot of Izanami, like you've been led to believe.
  107. [5:52 PM] Jingles Ischa: Marie is Izanami. She's Izanami-no-Mikoto.
  108. [5:52 PM] Jingles Ischa: The Izanami you fought is a "fake" Izanami that split off from her centuries ago.
  109. [5:52 PM] Flynn Varren: But I thought
  110. [5:52 PM] Jingles Ischa: And she's now absorbed her back into herself, so everything's all hunky dory and happy now! Yaaaaaaay~
  111. [5:52 PM] Jingles Ischa: It's a kick in the face.
  112. [5:52 PM] Flynn Varren: The Gas attendent was Izanami
  113. [5:52 PM] Jingles Ischa: If you haven't played P4 Vanilla, you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this.
  114. [5:53 PM] Jingles Ischa: But for people who played the originals? It's a flat out spit in the face of the ending you worked for.
  115. [5:53 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: Was about to say, that's a slap in the face to vanilla P4(edited)
  116. [5:54 PM] Jingles Ischa: The extended epilogue you unlock for saving Marie and getting true end is a similar slap in the face, though it's milder just because it's... about what you'd expect, and then some.
  117. [5:55 PM] Alphonze Morris: That part that takes place after dancing all night right?
  118. [5:55 PM] Flynn Varren: At the very least, never have too see her again. At the cost of Kanji
  119. [5:56 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: huh?
  120. [5:56 PM] Jingles Ischa: It's the protagonist coming back to Inaba some months later, and everything is saccarinely going well for Inaba. Namatame is running for local government. Junes is now collaborating with the local shops. Dojima even found a lead on his wife's death, even though his whole SL is about accepting he has to let go.
  121. [5:56 PM] Jingles Ischa: I mentioned in #general how I really appreciate the touch of subtlety and bittersweetness Persona's writing has. This... is not subtle. At all.
  122. [5:56 PM] Zestrion Grendall: Really, I don't have that much of a problem with Marie.
  123. Also Dojima can still chase after his wife's murderer, it's just that it doesn't haunt him anymore
  124. [5:57 PM] Jingles Ischa: It's the unconditionally happy ending you'd only see in a disney movie.
  125. [5:57 PM] Aurora Lunae'alis: I'll take the Answer over that shit IMHO
  126. [5:57 PM] Jingles Ischa: And this is my biggest issue with Golden's writing. They've tossed out the touch of bittersweet realism that Persona's writing carries in favor of dimming down the subtlety.
  127. [5:58 PM] Jingles Ischa: And going straight for the simplest, easiest solutions to make everyone feel good in the end.
  128. [5:58 PM] Flynn Varren: Hoping P5 changes all of that.
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