On Jan 24, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Ender wrote: Hey Ville, I figured it would be easier for the three of us to sort this out in a conversation where we're all participating, hence the switch to email. The first order of business is that I'm going to have to lock and reset the bots you played on for cheating. I'm doing so based on the following evidence: 1. You came clean to me via FB private message. Some choice quotes: "Had I never opened my mouth no one would have ever known about it." "I am hoping you will turn a shoulder to all this" "None of this would never have been in question had I not opened my mouth. I turned myself in." 2. A number of people came forward with additional facts, logs, and screenshots further implicating you. Their evidence independently corroborated existing claims. 3. I dug through old server logs and after isolating your activity, I saw a clear pattern that doesn't show up for legitimate players. The second order of business is that I would like you to follow through on what you said about giving Benny his money back: "Benny has not asked for his money back (but in all reality if he did I would give it back to him) because he is waiting on you to decide what you are going to do." You didn't sell the bots to him in good faith, knowing full well the repercussions for bots that have been cheated on, regardless of whether they have since changed owner. I'm really hoping you'll give Benny his money back without any fuss. He's innocent in this and doesn't deserve to be scammed. I know it's a lot of money, but if you cooperate, I'll be sure to highlight in my public comment about this situation that you are leaving the game with dignity, having done right by Benny. ######################### On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Ville wrote: Just lock Ville and xVillex, would that be an option? He could keep all the dumpers as I didn't actually build any of them. I give him back 500 for xVillex and Ville, he keeps all the dumpers. I would like to keep Eddie, with good faith that I will never level it I already reset it. Is this possible?? Sent from my iPhone ######################### On Jan 24, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Ender wrote: Adding Benny back to the thread. That's great Ville, thanks for agreeing to give Benny his money back! I appreciate your help in sorting out this messy situation. Regarding whether all bots involved in the deal will be reset, I first need to determine which bots have significant activity on them from your IP addresses. Can I have a list of bots from the deal please? Once I have that, I'll come back with a list of which bots will and won't be reset and the two of you can then agree on how much money should be given back. ######################### On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Ville wrote: I'm not in a position to do that right now. Benny could better tell you that. I think it's fair if.. Ville is locked, xvillex is locked, Benny keeps all the dumpers. I didn't build any of the dumpers, just used them to dump. So in essence all I did was burn trophy points and lower their ratios. And if I could keep Eddie Vedder, just to socialize with I would appreciate it. I'll give Benny back 500 for those two bots. You can lock those two and the public will be happy. Benny keeps 120 plus dumpers, so his donations and honesty is rewarded. He deserves them, and I'll give you my clicker. Also, hoping you'll agree to this as this as all due to me turning myself in, making me the dumbest cheater in history. Also, if you wanted to let Benny keep those stars? Maybe transfer them?? Sent from my iPhone ######################### On Jan 24, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Ender wrote: Adding Benny back to the thread again. Please reply all Ville. I switched the conversation to email so we could all be in the conversation. Benny, can give me the list of bots that were involved in the deal? Ville, there's no distinction when it comes to cheating between building a dumper and using a dumper. If either was done in any significant amount, I'm sorry to say that it needs to be locked. ######################### On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Ville wrote: Meaning it's your policy. I've agreed to give Benny money back. I don't know why you are asking my input. I would graciously ask that you didn't lock Eddie, as its my oldest bot and I've already reset it. I did click with it though. Sent from my iPhone ######################### 2015-01-25 4:26 GMT+01:00 Ender: I'm not asking for anything from you right now, Ville. As I said, I'll come back with a list of which bots will and won't be reset and the two of you can then agree on how much money should be given back. The next step is for Benny to get me the list of bots that were involved in the transaction. ######################### On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Benny wrote: Good morning (or night). I´ll try and write up the bots I bought. Some are still clanned. Some are not. http://bots4.net/clans/profile/3188/Eeeeeeeeeeee http://bots4.net/clans/profile/3356/Seraphim-III http://bots4.net/clans/profile/3214/Seraphim-II http://bots4.net/clans/profile/3370/Seraphim-IV http://bots4.net/profile/30751/LSD01 to http://bots4.net/profile/30815/LSD20 http://bots4.net/profile/26775/ComA to http://bots4.net/profile/26779/ComE http://bots4.net/profile/27340/Serpent01 to http://bots4.net/profile/27349/Serpent10 http://bots4.net/profile/29005/Fusion01 to http://bots4.net/profile/29031/Fusion10 http://bots4.net/profile/5722/Ville http://bots4.net/profile/14520/xVillex ######################### On Jan 26, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Ender wrote: Ville, I'm sorry to say that all of these bots have significant activity on them from your IPs and they all have to be locked and reset. That means you would need to give back the full amount to Benny. Again, I know it's a lot of money, but I hope you'll do the right thing here and not let Benny take the fall for your actions. I'll be sure to emphasize your exemplary display of character in my public announcement if you're cooperative with this. ######################### On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:28 PM, Ville wrote: Since you were able to look back in the database and see that I was not playing legit. You should do the same for Esv, Rene, Fishwick, Rivan, Neps, as all of these out scored me. If you have the ability to detect this in your logs how come you are not doing this on a regular basis? That's fucked up. Sent from my iPhone ######################### On Jan 26, 2015, at 11:41 PM, Ender wrote: I don't have the ability to detect this purely from logs unfortunately. As I mentioned in my first email, the log evidence was only one piece of supporting evidence. It's not enough by itself. Further, and I really don't think this needs to be said, but someone outscoring a cheater is nowhere near conclusive evidence of cheating. You're grasping at straws now in my opinion. ######################### On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Ville wrote: If someone can outscore a script that hits the links perfectly every time (faster than a human) then they must be cheating. That's not grasping at straws that's logic. The fact that you're not smart enough to put a system in play that can detect cheaters is not my problem (especially if you can look back in history and detect it) Fact, I sold my bots to Benny. When I did my status was clear. Now accusations and logs come out that the bots that Benny bought were not legit. Players buy bots at their own risk, just like your policy states you will take away stars from players that "cheated". All these bots became into question weeks after the transaction was completed. This is a problem between you and Benny, not myself. You are locking bots that he owns. Sent from my iPhone ######################### Ender wrote: Adding Benny back to the thread once again. Once again, please reply all, Ville, so that Benny can know you're going back on your word. Ville, your level of doublespeak is astonishing and truly frustrating. You started by admitting to cheating and saying you would give Benny his money back. You ended by denying cheating and saying the money is not your problem. The reason that people are "shit out of luck" in these situations, as the policy thread states, is because of people like you. The bots must be locked. My hands are tied because I can't set the precedent that you can cheat and cash out - it will only further incentivize this bad behavior and make it so that more innocent people get scammed in the future. It was only out of some misguided notion about the quality of your character that I started this conversation with you to give you an opportunity to do the right thing. I'm not interested in anything else you have to say unless it's that you're going to cooperate and give Benny his money back, so don't bother writing back if that's not the case because you're not going to get any more of my time or energy on this.