doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:44 PM): naggers Eldrad says (10:45 PM): sanders would you pay 3000 dollars for a pound of weed Barre says (10:45 PM): sndrs llps og and of course he would he is a dumb druggie doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:48 PM): ye mang i pay whatever it takes to get the dro Eldrad says (10:48 PM): sanders, how much would you pay for one pound of weed Barre says (10:48 PM): he just told you Eldrad says (10:48 PM): no he really didnt doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:48 PM): 420 dollars smoke weed erry day Eldrad says (10:48 PM): I'm bein' serious. What's the going rate. Barre says (10:48 PM): but he said Eldrad says (10:49 PM): Where you live. Barre says (10:49 PM): that he'll pay whatever they ask doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:49 PM): different weed has different prices shitty weed also known as mids Eldrad says (10:49 PM): white widow we're discussing white widow this kid is asking for 3000 for a pound of it doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): hmm Barre says (10:50 PM): mant are you a druggie as well? Eldrad says (10:50 PM): no doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): yeah that sounds about right Barre says (10:50 PM): we need to make mantdrg Eldrad says (10:50 PM): wow, really? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): yes Eldrad says (10:50 PM): the fuck doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): that's high grade weed Eldrad says (10:50 PM): stupid druggies doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): which people buy by the gram Eldrad says (10:50 PM): who'd spend that much money on that doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:50 PM): around here stuff like that sells for $20 a gram Barre says (10:50 PM): druggies Barre says (10:51 PM): duh doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:51 PM): dude you don't need a fucking pound of weed unless you're trying to sell it Eldrad says (10:51 PM): >twenty dollars for a gram ALL OF THIS WASTED TAX MONEY doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:51 PM): 1 gram is good for a few days Barre says (10:51 PM): ye mant doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:51 PM): depending on how often you like to get high Barre says (10:51 PM): legalize and tax it 420 save ecenomoy and smoke weed Eldrad says (10:51 PM): this kid says he has, like, 75000 dollars worth of it 27 or so pounds doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:51 PM): well he's probably full of shit Eldrad says (10:51 PM): nobody needs that much weed doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:52 PM): but $3000 a pound sounds legit Eldrad says (10:52 PM): fuckin stupi d doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:52 PM): dude its not Eldrad says (10:52 PM): like hell it isnt doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:52 PM): your average druggie Eldrad says (10:52 PM): is pathetic and filthy doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:52 PM): is not going to be like "hum today i want to buy a pound of weed" Eldrad says (10:52 PM): looking for his next fix wasting money on the stupidest shit doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:52 PM): nobody buys anything more than a quarter ounce doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:53 PM): unless they are trying to re-sell it for profit and if you're talking about white widow most people will buy 1 gram at a time have you ever smoked weed Eldrad says (10:53 PM): wait then if he has 27 pounds Eldrad says (10:54 PM): and people buy per gram doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:54 PM): he's selling it by the poudn Eldrad says (10:54 PM): ...doesn't that mean he's sinking his own buisness? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:54 PM): or at least that's what he's claiming Eldrad says (10:54 PM): hes throwing an immense amount of supply into the market but he wants prices to stay the same doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:54 PM): He is basically claiming that he buys almost directly from the growers Eldrad says (10:54 PM): no, hes growing it himself doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:54 PM): oh i dont understand how you mean doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:55 PM): how is he sinking his own business Eldrad says (10:55 PM): he has a tremendous supply but he expects prices to stay the same doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:55 PM): no no no $20 a gram is $9000 a pound Eldrad says (10:55 PM): if he sells his supply, ignoring the fact that he'll get more, he'll lower the price of it because there's so much in circulation doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:55 PM): he is selling for $3000 a pound doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:56 PM): it doesnt really work that way the prices aren't going to react to changes in supply that quickly the weed market is not very elastic at all doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:58 PM): besides with that large of a product his stuff is not going to stay local Barre says (10:58 PM): druggie pls go doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (10:58 PM): ralfdrg Barre says (10:58 PM): noralph doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:00 PM): manticus have you ever smoked weed i want to know Barre says (11:00 PM): yes during the mw3 free weekend Barre says (11:01 PM): he smoked weed while doing 360 quickscopes doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:02 PM): cool sadsand Barre says (11:02 PM): why are you sad? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:02 PM): too much drgs Barre says (11:02 PM): Aren't you happy that you get more druggie friends? Barre says (11:03 PM): now you have joc, herc and mant druggie bros 4lyfe doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:03 PM): cool bros 4 lyfe doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:04 PM): also i still think whoever you're talking to is full of shit because you referred to him as "kid" and he would not be telling you any of this shit if it were true Eldrad says (11:04 PM): >me >a druggy Eldrad says (11:05 PM): Dude, WHAT Barre says (11:05 PM): ye mant doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:05 PM): because he could get a fuckload of jail time Barre says (11:05 PM): u druggie now Eldrad says (11:05 PM): I hate drugs to the point that I find CAFFINE immoral you piece of shit i'll fucking end you Barre says (11:05 PM): poor mant he hasn't gotten his fix yet so hostile ;_; Eldrad says (11:05 PM): 1v1 right now 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1 1v1 Barre says (11:06 PM): druggie pls go Eldrad says (11:06 PM): no i've never smoked weed because i dont hate myself doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:06 PM): i used to be like you Eldrad says (11:06 PM): I still have morality and self-respect doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:06 PM): then i took a bong rip Eldrad says (11:06 PM): a joint to the knee xD doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:06 PM): and it was awesome doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:07 PM): >smoking weed is immoral justify this claim pls Eldrad says (11:07 PM): What is the ultimate good in the universe. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:07 PM): that's highly debatable Eldrad says (11:07 PM): No, it isn't. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:08 PM): what are you going to say is the ultimate good in the universe Eldrad says (11:08 PM): Morality is arbitrary, and meaningless There is no wrong answer. So, I'll ask again. What is the ultimate good in the universe? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:08 PM): i don't have an answer to that question because whatever I respond with, I wont be able to justify because I havent thought on the issue Eldrad says (11:08 PM): I won't scrutinize you. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:09 PM): well socrates thought the ultimate good in the universe was happiness if I remember my PHIL 1000 class correctly Eldrad says (11:09 PM): No, you're thinking of Hedon. He founded the school of Hedonism, which believes Pleasure and Happiness are the ultimate good. Eldrad says (11:10 PM): For hedonists, as long as you're happy, you're well... be that high on your next fix, or after sex after countless times. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:10 PM): okay well continue obviously you have some way of connecting this train of thought to the morality of using drugs Eldrad says (11:10 PM): I am a stoic. I believe the ultimate good in the universe is thinking. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:10 PM): okay Eldrad says (11:11 PM): Anything that interferes with thinking is therefore immoral. You follow? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:11 PM): yes if Eldrad says (11:11 PM): If you are drunk, thinking is more challenging, and you cannot do it in the classical sense. Even your motor skills fade, and so does your judgment. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:11 PM): you define a moral act as something which provides or furthers the ultimate good Eldrad says (11:11 PM): Therefore, drunkness is immoral. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:12 PM): and an immoral act is something which hinders the ultimate good or prevents it okay now that we've got some boundaries Eldrad says (11:13 PM): Well, you kinda have a moral scale. On the left, evil, the right, good. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:13 PM): but can you make a connection between smoking weed and hindering of thinking? what about testimony from users of marijuana that say that it actually opens your mind? Eldrad says (11:14 PM): It changes how you think. Therefore, it is immoral. I phrased that poorly. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:14 PM): yes non sequitor; it does not follow Eldrad says (11:14 PM): It... LITERALLY changes how you think, unlike an idea. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:15 PM): hrm I don't see how that makes it immoral because just because something has changed doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:16 PM): does not mean it is worse than it was before by the way I took a class on arguments so that's why I'm going at this in such a systematic fasion *fashion doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:17 PM): i'm used to philosophical discussions where every statement is justified in some way Kori says (11:17 PM): changing is not necessarily taking away or impairing it's just different Eldrad says (11:18 PM): If marijuana is a miracle drug that enhances so well, then, why don't more people use it, or why is it illegal? Kori says (11:18 PM): dunno it's never been shown to actually cause harm it has plenty of medicinal purposes Eldrad says (11:18 PM): But it has long-term memory damage. Kori says (11:18 PM): sources pls Kori says (11:19 PM): if this is the monkey brain cell killing thing that's bullshit doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:19 PM): i can testify that it affects memory Kori says (11:19 PM): okay doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:19 PM): from personal experience Eldrad says (11:19 PM): At it's best, Marijuana is like... horseblinders. They focus you. Kori says (11:19 PM): What's it like? Kori says (11:20 PM): Like small gaps in your memory, or things that are different from what happened? Eldrad says (11:20 PM): That is a fundamental change in thinking. It's an entire scope change that can drastically change judgment. Therefore, it is immoral. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:20 PM): I stopped smoking for about 3 or 4 months recently started smoking again and lately I will frequently forget where i put things that I had in my hand not 5 minutes ago Kori says (11:21 PM): and this is new? because i do that normally sometimes doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:21 PM): I.E. i'll put a guitar pick down, go do something else, come back and be like "WHERE THE FUCK DID I PUT THAT" well it's happening a lot more often than it used Kori says (11:21 PM): ah how often do you smoke? doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:21 PM): so manticus doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:22 PM): can I paraphrase your argument thusly: you are essentially saying that marijuana clouds your thinking, not allowing your thoughts to reach their full potential? Eldrad says (11:22 PM): No. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:22 PM): i'll get about four or five days out of the wee doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:23 PM): *high Eldrad says (11:23 PM): Marijuana is immoral on the basis that it A) Interferes with judgment B) Alters the processes of the mind and brain C) Has long term effects that interfere with the mind doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:24 PM): okay Eldrad says (11:24 PM): Or, that is, smoking marijuana. Nothing immoral about a plant existing. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:24 PM): that's a pretty solid philosophical position Kori says (11:24 PM): it is doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:24 PM): its not an argument that I subscribe to, though doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:25 PM): because I disagree with your foundation of the ultimate good and the basis of morality Eldrad says (11:25 PM): No matter how much I don't want it to be, morality really does mean nothing. It's so arbitrary and wavers with culture. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:26 PM): personal morality is important such that it's important that you can believe that you yourself are a moral person doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:27 PM): and if you take that to a global scale, with each person trying to act in a moral way it seems like it would create an overall moral society doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:28 PM): the only issue with that is each person has a different view on morality sorry, i'm just thinking out loud at this point Kori says (11:28 PM): Well, here in what I suppose we'd call 1st world countries, there are certain things that everybody can agree is immoral Kori says (11:29 PM): Or nearly everybody On a global scale, that morality is more of a between cultures thing Eldrad says (11:29 PM): I think everyone can agree that everyone is immoral. Kori says (11:29 PM): only you can make the entire world to be immoral, mant only you ehue doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:30 PM): I disagree with you manticus Eldrad says (11:30 PM): I have only met two people that I could ever objectively call moral and good people One of them fucked my girlfriend. So that whittles the list down to one. Kori says (11:30 PM): >objectively call moral and good Kori says (11:31 PM): the objectively doesn't really belong there Eldrad says (11:31 PM): Morality is subjective, moral analysis is not. Kori says (11:31 PM): By our standards, they had good morals And lived by good morals Kori says (11:32 PM): A moral analysis and saying that somebody has good morals are different, I'd say Kori says (11:33 PM): If a moral analysis is always objective, that is doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:34 PM): meh i wish that we were having this conversation a year ago when I was still taking an ethics class Kori says (11:35 PM): well, i know i learned stuff today doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:35 PM): cause i cant remember shit from that class Kori says (11:35 PM): and that makes me feel good about myself doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:35 PM): oh wait I have my ethics textbook right here doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:36 PM): okay so let's take a look at this particular philosophy doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:37 PM): Emmanuel Kant's categorical imperative "Act only from moral rules that you can at the same time will to be universal moral laws." Kori says (11:38 PM): Well, anybody can will their morals to be universal, but it won't fit into every culture Eldrad says (11:38 PM): There is no such thing as a universal morality doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:38 PM): that's not what its saying Here's an example provided from the textbook Eldrad says (11:39 PM): I wish I had a morality textbook. All I have is... doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:39 PM): Kant poses the problem of an individual in a difficult situation who must decide if he will make a promise with the intention of later breaking it. The translation of this moral rule could be "A person may make a false promise when that is the only way to escape a difficult situation." Eldrad says (11:39 PM): Neitzches (oh god) Genealogy, and Plato's Republic doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:40 PM): To evaluate this moral rule, we universalize it. What would happen if everybody in extreme circumstances made false promises? If that were the case, nobody would believe promises, and it would be impossible for our individual in distress to make a promise that anyone believed. The moral rule self-destructs when we try to make it a universal law. Therefore, it is wrong for a person in distress to make a promise with the intention of breaking it. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:42 PM): Kant is saying that simply willing that our moral rule become a universal law produces a logical contradiction. Kori says (11:42 PM): I see doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:43 PM): I'm having trouble relating this to drug use, though Kori says (11:44 PM): I'm having trouble thinking up something that could make this okay in a 'situational, use your own judgment' kind of way doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:44 PM): but then again, there's nothing that says one has to subscribe to this particular formulation of morality, anyway Kori says (11:44 PM): no, of course not Kori says (11:45 PM): I still adhere to the idea that this is okay in circumstances where you've thought of the consequences of keeping or breaking the promise And can use your own judgment properly Eldrad says (11:45 PM): Breaking a promise is never morally acceptable because that devalues your word Kori says (11:46 PM): But then how can I see any promise as true when I have to trust other people's judgment Eldrad says (11:46 PM): If you lie, and are caught in the lie, it becomes harder to tell the truth Kori says (11:46 PM): On something that's subjective Eldrad says (11:46 PM): Because you have lied in the past. Kori says (11:46 PM): That's true Telling the truth is much harder than lying But you save yourself a lot of trouble farther on Kori says (11:47 PM): this, i speak from experience Barre says (11:47 PM): what the hell are you talking about? Kori says (11:48 PM): we're discussing morality Barre says (11:48 PM): telling the truth doesn't become any harder Kori says (11:48 PM): What Kori says (11:49 PM): Yes it does Eldrad says (11:49 PM): >telling the truth doesnt become harder how in the heck can you figure doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:50 PM): okay here's a nugget to chew this goes back to Eldrad Gulcasa says (2:25 AM) It's so arbitrary and wavers with culture. Kori says (11:51 PM): err more like situational? in terms of telling the truth and whether it becomes harder doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:52 PM): You are riding in a car driven by a close friend. He hits a pedestrian. You know he was going at least 25 miles per hour in an area of the city where the maximum allowed speed is 20 miles per hour. There are no witnesses other than you. His lawyer says that if you testify under oath that he was driving only 20 miles per hour, you will save him from serious consequences. What right has your friend to expect you to protect him? Kori says (11:52 PM): He really doesn't have a right doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:52 PM): 1. My friend has a definite right as a friend to expect me to testify to the lower speed. 2. He has some right as a friend to expect me to testify to the lower speed. 3. He has no right as a friend to expect me to testify to the lower speed. Kori says (11:53 PM): as equals, he doesn't have a right to expect things from me but mutual respect etc etc Eldrad says (11:53 PM): Wait, so he hits the pedestrian and keeps going? Kori says (11:54 PM): I assume since he's in court he didn't just drive away I don't think I'd have friends that hit people and drive away doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:54 PM): About 90 percent of Norwegians would not testify to the lower speed and do not believe that the person's friend has a definite right to expect help. In contrast, only about 10 percent of Yugoslavians feel the same way. About three-quarters of Americans and Canadians agree witht he dominant Norwegian view, but Mexicans are fairly evenly divided. This is all taken verbatim from my textbook Kori says (11:55 PM): norway is in scandinavia scandinavia is cool Eldrad says (11:55 PM): He has some right to expect it, but he doesn't have the rigorous system of morality I does. I would never lie. Kori says (11:56 PM): unless he's done something like this for me in the past I don't think I could lie for him because I would never expect him to do the same for me Eldrad says (11:57 PM): whats that quote for meditations doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:57 PM): huh Kori says (11:57 PM): quote for meditations? Eldrad says (11:57 PM): from meditations doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:57 PM): i dunno Kori says (11:58 PM): if that's a book, I've never read it Eldrad says (11:58 PM): When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: The people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly. Kori says (11:58 PM): but then don't i become like them Eldrad says (11:58 PM): I would never expect anyone to be as good as me. Kori says (11:59 PM): Well, I mean, like I said, if I'd done something like this for him before, I'd expect him to do it for me, and vice versa though I probably wouldn't be the first to do it for him doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (11:59 PM): okay here comes another scenario gonna take a second to type up Eldrad says (11:59 PM): no fuck that instead consider this A cucumber is bitter. Throw it away. There are briars in the road. Turn aside from them. This is enough. Do not add, "And why were such things made in the world?" doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:00 AM): that's interesting Kori says (12:00 AM): that's deep doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:00 AM): where is that from Eldrad says (12:00 AM): the philosopher king's works Kori says (12:00 AM): actually deep Eldrad says (12:01 AM): Meditations by Marcus Aurelius its what made me decide to be a stoic Kori says (12:01 AM): i'll have to read this doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:01 AM): well I disagree with it because I believe in the importance of knowledge so I would attempt to seek out the answer to that question posed at the end Eldrad says (12:02 AM): I believe in the importance of knowledge, too, but Aurelius speaks not of ignorance but of simplicity. You don't need to know that briars hurt to touch because they have thorns. All you need to know is briars hurt to touch. Kori says (12:02 AM): but curiosity is what drives us without curiosity Kori says (12:03 AM): we are nothing nothing we're empty shells frozen at a certain point in time, repeating the same godawful things over and over again Barre says (12:03 AM): neat Eldrad says (12:03 AM): Do you really want to keep burning your hand over and over and over until you finally understand why stoves are hot? Kori says (12:03 AM): i know the stove is hot Eldrad says (12:04 AM): Then why keep touching it? Kori says (12:04 AM): now i want to understand why the stove is hot doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:04 AM): understanding why the stove is hot does not require you to touch it Kori says (12:04 AM): I don't need to touch it Barre says (12:04 AM): mantpun Eldrad says (12:04 AM): The briars are symbolic of evil, of course. You can't truly understand why evil is evil. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:04 AM): It seems a bit ignorant to me Kori says (12:04 AM): but we can try Kori says (12:05 AM): and we can form opinions and gather knowledge Eldrad says (12:05 AM): You're trying to seek out knowledge beyond you, so to speak. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:05 AM): The knowledge that briars hurt to touch because they have thorns is more useful than the knowledge that briars hurt to touch because when you experience something new with thorns, you already know that it hurts to touch Disambi says (12:05 AM): Just because we don't know now, doesn't mean it's impossible to know. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:05 AM): without having to touch it again Eldrad says (12:05 AM): Aurelius encourages humbleness, humility, simplicity. You don't need to know why something is wrong to know it is wrong, and you don't need to know why to not do wrong. Disambi says (12:05 AM): It's only impossible if you stop trying to. Kori says (12:05 AM): ^ Kori says (12:06 AM): Was thinking of a way to say that as i said earlier, curiosity drives us Kori says (12:07 AM): without curiosity and a will to know who, what, when, why, how we're shells doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:07 AM): But if I don't know why I shouldn't do wrong, then why should I avoid doing wrong? If I have no reason to avoid doing something, why avoid doing it? Kori says (12:07 AM): we've developed enough intelligence that 'this is wrong' and 'this hurts' aren't sufficient Eldrad says (12:08 AM): You would, ideally, not want to do wrong because you would get pricked by a briar, understand that it hurts, and would not want to prick someone else, so to speak Kori says (12:08 AM): That's different from what we were talking about huh Eldrad says (12:09 AM): i was responding to sanders Kori says (12:09 AM): That's more like empathy oh ye doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:09 AM): meh i'm not content with that philosophy doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:10 AM): it really does seem to be promoting ignorance to me Eldrad says (12:10 AM): The context of Meditations is that Aurelius wrote them over the course of several military campaigns. He wasn't very educated, he was a simple man. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:10 AM): and is all about consequences of actions Kori says (12:10 AM): that's why i don't like it either Disambi says (12:10 AM): I'd have to agree with Sanders. Eldrad says (12:10 AM): He's not promoting ignorance, he's promoting simplicity. Kori says (12:10 AM): In the context of when he was and where he was It was great But at this point in time I understand where you're coming from, mant doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:10 AM): "If an action has a negative consequence, do not repeat the action" is what I'm reading from this Eldrad says (12:10 AM): Because the life you live is anything but simple Eldrad says (12:11 AM): You and your cities are so complicated Disambi says (12:12 AM): Are you really going to suggest that society and the general lifestyle of people hasn't changed in the time since his book? Eldrad says (12:12 AM): No, it has, definitely. I'm saying I don't think it's for the better. doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:12 AM): okay well this has been fun doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:13 AM): i have to sleep Disambi says (12:13 AM): Night. Eldrad says (12:13 AM): good night Kori says (12:13 AM): Night, Sanders doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:13 AM): i'm going to type up another scenario from my book and then depart Kori says (12:13 AM): Was a good chat I think that we've degenerated in some ways and improved in some Barre says (12:13 AM): silly sanders druggies never sleep Disambi says (12:13 AM): I will definately agree that not every change has been better, but we've improved as well. Kori says (12:13 AM): And mant, it was simpler back then and perhaps more people had the kind of simple thought that guy had Kori says (12:14 AM): But even then, they had the same assholes we have today the same immoral people maybe it was just easier to hide it back then Eldrad says (12:14 AM): Have you ever been to Pompeii, Kori? Or at least, seen pictures of it. Kori says (12:14 AM): I've seen pictures Disambi says (12:14 AM): But that didn't come without questing the world, evil, and pretty much everything. Kori says (12:14 AM): Bread still in the oven, bodies preserved with how they were lying Eldrad says (12:14 AM): There's still ancient latin graffiti on the walls in the streets. Disambi says (12:15 AM): If there's paradise beyond the briar patch, it way be worth the cuts. Eldrad says (12:15 AM): Saying so-and-so had and affair with whomever. Disambi says (12:15 AM): may be* Disambi says (12:16 AM): without questioning* Fuck I'm tired. Kori says (12:16 AM): curiosity, man it drives us and makes us who we are Disambi says (12:16 AM): Exactly. Kori says (12:17 AM): without curiosity, we are nothing doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:17 AM): Alexis, a gifted high school student, wants to become a doctor. Because she comes from a poor family, she will need a scholarship in order to attend college. Some of her classes require students to do extra research projects in order to get an A. Her high school has a few older PCs, but there are always long lines of students waiting to use them during the school day. After school, she usually works at a part-time job to help support her family. One evening Alexis visits the library of a private college a few miles from her family's apartment, and she finds plenty of unused PCs connected to the internet. She surreptitiously looks over the shoulder of another student to learn a valid login/password combination. Alexis returns to the library several times a week, and by using its PCs and printers she efficiently completes the extra research projects, graduates from high school with straight A's, and gets a full-ride scholarship to attend a prestigious university. Did Alexis do anything wrong? Who benefited from Alexis's course of action? Who was hurt by Alexis's course of action? Did Alexis have an unfair advantage over her high school classmates? Would any of your answers change if it turns out Alexis did not win a college scholarship after all and is now working at the Burger Barn? Are there better ways Alexis could have accomplished her objective? Stroll has been added to the conversation. Kori says (12:19 AM): there's nothing in the rules saying that students from other schools aren't allowed to use their library, is there? Disambi says (12:19 AM): Other than the stealing the username/password part, I see nothing wrong with it. Kori says (12:19 AM): If she fails, no one benefits or loses Eldrad says (12:19 AM): It's a "victimless crime". Kori says (12:19 AM): If she succeeds, everyone benefits Kori says (12:20 AM): yeah, mant Disambi says (12:20 AM): Pretty much, yeah. Kori says (12:20 AM): In terms of having an unfair advantage, she was disadvantaged at the start She could have gone to a public library, or asked a friend Even used encyclopedias, though it would have been much more work for her to use offline sources Eldrad says (12:21 AM): Besides, I could never admonish her because... I sort of have the same habit. Kori says (12:21 AM): and those offline sources could easily be outdated there could be new information on the subject doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:21 AM): Really> manticus I'm surprised that you don't find that to be immoral Eldrad says (12:21 AM): When I take tests, I glance at other people's papers. I'm not even trying to cheat, I just... want to gauge how far people are along the test. Kori says (12:22 AM): i try not to do that but i always want to see how far people are doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:22 AM): I thought for sure you would say she was immoral for stealing the login information of someone else Kori says (12:22 AM): i always do ;_; doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:22 AM): and therefore is undeserving of the rewards Kori says (12:22 AM): well, it's not like she makes it unable for the 'victim' to do anything Eldrad says (12:22 AM): Well, it would be immoral if the person she took the information from was suffering because of it Kori says (12:22 AM): ^ Eldrad says (12:22 AM): ie. he couldnt log in Then there would be a problem. Eldrad says (12:23 AM): At the end of the day, the only group suffering is the library that's missing out on one whole customer. Kori says (12:23 AM): wait mant that means that this is like piracy hehe You could compare this to piracy doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:23 AM): actually its funny you bring that up Disambi says (12:23 AM): It said it had many open PCs. Kori says (12:23 AM): oh Kori says (12:24 AM): welp doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:24 AM): this textbook is from a class on Ethics for the Information Age its all about Piracy and System Security Eldrad says (12:24 AM): >Ethics for the Information Age doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:24 AM): etc Eldrad says (12:24 AM): Oh, 1995... Kori says (12:24 AM): Disambi, it was a private college where I assume all the computers needed a login So if she was actually needing to pay for the college to use the computer Then this is comparable to piracy doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:24 AM): nah the book is pretty new Eldrad says (12:25 AM): "Information Age" is such an antiquated term doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:25 AM): because it talks about the RIAA suing the pants off everybody Eldrad says (12:25 AM): i prefer to call it the Globalization Era Disambi says (12:25 AM): Well they didn't lose a customer, just had someone using their bandwith and ink cartidges. Kori says (12:25 AM): I think that globalization is barely, barely starting doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:26 AM): okay i'm going to type up another, more complicated scenario THEN sleep Eldrad says (12:26 AM): no no no i cant its 3:26 am Kori says (12:26 AM): Well, Disambi, then pirating a game or music is not a lost sale doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:26 AM): too late im doing it Disambi says (12:26 AM): It's not, it's copyright infridgement. Kori says (12:26 AM): touche doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:26 AM): this scenario is about privacy Kori says (12:28 AM): last one? maybe we can continue tomorrow Stroll says (12:29 AM): i just re-read and i find this hilarious Kori says (12:29 AM): strolll no mant-hating allowed Stroll says (12:29 AM): hi i said hilarious Kori says (12:29 AM): ye i'm glad that we managed to have such a great discussion and there was zero hating Barre says (12:29 AM): Why are you guys still up? It's almost 4am Stroll says (12:29 AM): its morning here doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:29 AM): In an attempt to deter speeders, the East Dakota State Police (EDSP) installs video cameras on all of its freeway overpasses. The cameras are connected to computers that can reliably detect cars traveling more than five miles per hour above the speed limit. These computers have sophisticated image recognition software that enables them to read license plate numbers and capture high-resolution pictures of vehicle drivers. If the picture of the driver matches the driver's license photo of one of the registered owners of the car, the system issues a speeding ticket to the driver, complete with photo evidence. Six months after the system is put into operation, the number of people speeding on East Dakota freeways is reduced by 90 percent. The FBI asks the EDSP for real-time access to the information collected by the video cameras. The EDSP complies with this request. Three months later, the FBI uses this information to arrest five members of a terrorist organization. 1. Did the East Dakota State Police do anything wrong? 2. Who benefited from the actions of the EDSP? Stroll says (12:29 AM): 8:30 Barre says (12:29 AM): not you stroll Barre says (12:30 AM): I meant the amurcans Eldrad says (12:30 AM): I want to note how Ralph said nothing because he could not contribute without feeling stupid Barre says (12:30 AM): That hurts doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:30 AM): 3. Who was harmed by the actions of the EDSP? 4. What other courses of action could the EDSP have taken to achieve its objectives? Examine the advantages and disadvantaged of these alternative courses of action. Stroll says (12:30 AM): or maybe mant its 4am where he is Kori says (12:30 AM): I wouldn't say it's wrong Barre says (12:30 AM): it ain't Stroll says (12:30 AM): wait no Barre says (12:30 AM): it's 4am in america well almost Stroll says (12:30 AM): no it isnt Barre says (12:30 AM): 3:30 Stroll says (12:30 AM): its like 2;30 Barre says (12:31 AM): according to mant Disambi says (12:31 AM): It's 3:30 for the East Coast. Barre says (12:31 AM): it's 3:30 where it matters Stroll says (12:31 AM): 00:30 -> 3:30 Kori says (12:31 AM): nobody but people breaking the law and disrupting order are being harmed Eldrad says (12:31 AM): Don't they already do that in Britain? Kori says (12:31 AM): everybody benefits except people who are breaking the law Disambi says (12:31 AM): >2012 >Living in Mountain Time. Kori says (12:31 AM): which you should be prepared for the consequences anyways doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:31 AM): But its an invasion of privacy. Disambi says (12:31 AM): I think they do it some place in the U.S. already too. Is it? Kori says (12:31 AM): The FBI, I'm sure, already has pictures of our faces Disambi says (12:32 AM): How is you driving a car private? Kori says (12:32 AM): If I drive on the other side of the road Stroll says (12:32 AM): oh also Kori says (12:32 AM): And look in through the windshield That's not an invasion of privacy If I come in and search or look through the trunk of your car that's an invasion of privacy Stroll says (12:32 AM): disambi, above you said infridgement which i was going to make a >fridge ihope joke But it's infringement :3 Barre says (12:33 AM): ahh Disambi says (12:33 AM): Oh, thanks. I didn't even notice. Barre says (12:33 AM): time to eat Kori says (12:33 AM): I don't see any other methods to be that efficient with catching law breakers and people on the run Disambi says (12:33 AM): I really need to get some proper sleep. Kori says (12:34 AM): perhaps if the FBI were looking for someone, they could give an estimated time and receive footage from that time? though it'd be less efficient Disambi says (12:34 AM): Exactly, it uses no info that a law enforcement agency doesn't already know. (i.e. Plate numbers and driver's licenses.) doughnutguy@gmail.com (E-mail address not verified) says (12:35 AM): Yes it does It uses information such as "where was X person at Y time" Eldrad says (12:35 AM): Watching someone drink coffee at a cafe is not an invasion of privacy. Watching someone drink coffee at a cafe if you have followed them there, and knew they'd drink there, is Disambi says (12:35 AM): On a public, likely highly used intersection. Kori says (12:35 AM): well, that's not an invasion of privacy unless it's in a private place Kori says (12:36 AM): Mant, that's not really an invasion of privacy I wouldn't call it one Because there is no privacy there to begin with Eldrad says (12:36 AM): im tired Kori says (12:36 AM): it's creepy Disambi says (12:36 AM): Well, it's more like light stalking in Mant's version. Eldrad says (12:36 AM): this isnt working for me Kori says (12:36 AM): but not an invasion of privacy alright, mant let's end here Disambi says (12:36 AM): Which would be more harrasment. Kori says (12:36 AM): maybe we can pick up some later time Disambi says (12:37 AM): Yes, this was enjoyable. Kori says (12:37 AM): I've seen Disambi slip like, three times. hehe It was very enjoyable Eldrad says (12:37 AM): Good night. Kori says (12:37 AM): Glad to have spoken with you all, I learned Disambi says (12:37 AM): Night. Kori says (12:37 AM): Good night