1.Session Time: Wed Aug 31 00:00:01 2011
2.09[22:32] <Uthgaard> going on 2 days with no response. i'm interested how you conducted this investigation you claim you did without a single question to me
3.09[22:34] <Uthgaard> hell, i'd settle for an alternate explanation of what valid purpose he was doing with all of those information gathering activities. because it wasn't development
4.[22:52] <nilbog> hey ive been really busy the past 2 days
5.[22:53] <nilbog> it took like half an hour to do dmg control from that post today, had to rdp to my home pc just to do dmg control from that thread.  
6.09[22:53] <Uthgaard> ok. that's all you had to say
7.09[22:55] <Uthgaard> and not sure which post you're talking about
8.[22:56] <nilbog> i looked at the logs man.  he appeared to be testing out npcs in zones.  i do not see how you concluded that meant he was stealing vp info or abusing power.  the only abuse of power that i see is that he was taking a look around.. in which he's provided some of the best feedback from the server up, especially content exploits.  furthermore i did ip queries to verify he was the only person ever 
9.[22:56] <nilbog> connected in regards to his account, questioned him thoroughly, and looked into it.  
10.[22:57] <nilbog> the thread "high road" / hypocrisy
11.[22:57] <nilbog> which the OP was a direct copy and paste from the staff forums
12.[22:58] <nilbog> that is not cool at all.  investigations of any staff should go directly to rogean and i.  guides are players, they have no business knowing any of that.  nor the name of the dev server
13.09[22:59] <Uthgaard> it did go to you. that's where i've posted the shit about all other staff compromises. wenai, etc. but you're complaining about where i posted it, it wasn't a csr log, i didnt do shit. and it wasnt going in development, where he could see it 
14.[23:01] <nilbog> it was an inquisition of a staff member that every member of the staff could see.  that is not cool at all.  his reputation is pretty much ruined i'd imagine.  that is something you should have asked to have a private chat with rogean and i, PMed it to us, something.  i'm not dwelling on where it was posted, that's just the reason its such a prevelant issue.  back to the topic at hand, what 
15.[23:01] <nilbog> nefarious plots did you see xzerion performing that would require that?
16.09[23:01] <Uthgaard> you'll find that the only times you can tie that testing to some development feedback is on dates when i spotted him doing it. the rest of that never turned into development anything. you're just seeing what you want to see out of it. if it had been me, i'd already be out on my ass. you canned me in may without ever speaking to me. and i still never got a damned apology from that. i busted my ass for 3 months to keep things caught up while rogean was working and you were out of commission, you come back and all i hear is some brow beating about fucking frog factions. but xzerion does nothing but benefit himself for a year and you sing his praises in public.
17.[23:02] <nilbog> sounds like you "see what you want to see."  i also recall giving you praise, taking up for you in public, as well as convincing you to stay, and making things better for you.  
18.09[23:03] <Uthgaard> no. this has been the same argument since zianlo
19.09[23:04] <Uthgaard> you and rogean are mortified of offsite forums and bad press
20.09[23:04] <Uthgaard> the only power those people have over p99 is what you hand them
21.[23:05] <nilbog> no, we just have to put up with it.  i have gone to bat for you many a fucking time, when it had nothing to do with me.  why are you so hostile
22.[23:05] <nilbog> not every fucking thing can have a conclusion.  jumping.to.conclusions
23.09[23:08] <Uthgaard> i've still got access to the tr forums. i can see things that you haven't heard about yet. how long does it usually take me to convince you that someone is fucking up?
24.[23:08] <nilbog> i don't think you should be taking measures like that against staff for no reason.  the guide book thing you were convinced he made is an exact copy and paste from my veeshans peak thread
25.09[23:09] <Uthgaard> that was posted after the core of the evidence. that information being available elsewhere doesn't exonerate him. this wasn't just vp
26.09[23:10] <Uthgaard> it's been going on for a long time.
27.[23:10] <nilbog> it doesn't condemn him either, as i debunk one one of your conclusions, you continue on with something different.  anything like that, why don't you present all this evidence, privately to rogean and i?
28.09[23:11] <Uthgaard> i'm just really not interested in having this argument, because i know where it's going to lead. you will not be satisfied with any evidence i give you, and even when i do give you his ass on a silver platter, you continue to justify it. why argue it? it's pointless
29.09[23:12] <Uthgaard> you did not debunk my evidence. everything you needed was in the first post, and you haven't debunked a damned thing out of that. you've offered some alternate explanations
30.[23:12] <nilbog> why did i see logs today with you talking shit about me?   as well as the rest of the developers.  how did that get out?  it was between you and others
31.09[23:12] <Uthgaard> none of which are plausible, or likely
32.[23:12] <nilbog> i asked you specifically what was damning from that.  what specifically warranted that type of attack on one of your 'e-coworkers'.  i mean it was posted like an absolute
33.09[23:12] <Uthgaard> show me
34.09[23:14] <Uthgaard> there is no 'specifically'. you have all of the evidence together to form a conclusion. you dont get to pick it apart piecemeal to defend your pal
35.09[23:15] <Uthgaard> all of it is damning, it is an absolute
36.[23:16] <nilbog> trying to find this shit.  its a conversation between you and mellyn that ib apparently has
37.09[23:16] <Uthgaard> im pretty sure i showed you that same conversation myself
38.[23:17] <nilbog> [00:26] don't underestimate stoner apathy
39.[23:17] <nilbog> [00:27] and if you do have a legitimate point, he'll try to break it down into bits and pieces that are irrational instead of taking the full concept
40.[23:17] <nilbog> [22:45] and he throws little fits like that whenever his highness isnt consulted about any other changes
41.[23:17] <nilbog> [22:45] basically his ego is a barrier to progress
42.[23:17] <nilbog> [22:48] if it's broke and they're more concerned with feeling important than fixing it, i'll fix it myself, even if it means breaking it in the process
43.[23:17] <nilbog> wtf is this.  you won't find logs of me talking shit about you online.  
44.09[23:17] <Uthgaard> what of that haven't i said to your face?
45.09[23:18] <Uthgaard> hell, what of that (aside from rogean being obstinate) hasn't been mentioned in this same conversation?
46.09[23:18] <Uthgaard> that isn't shit talking, those are your personality traits, like it or not
47.[23:18] <nilbog> thats great logic.  so behind my back is ok?  my point is, you show no respect for your 'e-coworkers'
48.[23:19] <nilbog> you know the ones that are staff?  that you don't stab in the back when they aren't looking?  if theres a legitimate problem thats fine, but wtf man
49.09[23:19] <Uthgaard> sure i do. just not the ones who are pulling shit
50.09[23:20] <Uthgaard> [23:17] <nilbog> [00:27] and if you do have a legitimate point, he'll try to break it down into bits and pieces that are irrational instead of taking the full concept
51.09[23:20] <Uthgaard> [23:12] <nilbog> i asked you specifically what was damning from that.  what specifically warranted that type of attack on one of your 'e-coworkers'.  i mean it was posted like an absolute
52.09[23:20] <Uthgaard> [23:14] <Uthgaard> there is no 'specifically'. you have all of the evidence together to form a conclusion. you dont get to pick it apart piecemeal to defend your pal
53.[23:20] <nilbog> you keep insisting that i let people off easy.  ask rogean, and you will learn that i invoke punishments where i see them fit.  if there is evidence (note, real evidence), that i take action.
54.09[23:20] <Uthgaard> look at it
55.[23:20] <nilbog> yes, you are rude, your point?
56.09[23:20] <Uthgaard> that you're still doing that same thing
57.09[23:21] <Uthgaard> you have evidence (real evidence) in front of your face, and you're choosing to ignore it
58.[23:21] <nilbog> well thats your opinion.  i see you as being rude, having no respect for your coworkers, and arguing with me.  we have differing opinions
59.[23:21] <nilbog> ask rogean about it
60.09[23:21] <Uthgaard> you're just pretending you're not ignoring it by trying to do one of those circular arguments again
61.[23:21] <nilbog> he leads csr, what do you think he would say
62.09[23:22] <Uthgaard> ask him. that isn't anything i haven't said to his face either. there's tension all over the world. there's no point being afraid of it and trying to hide it right beneath the surface. not everything has to be nicey nice
63.[23:23] <nilbog> its really not circular.  i said you shouldn't have posted in staff forums, that you shouldn't attack your coworkers.  that is there wasn't evidence to set xzerion on fire at the stake, ruining his reputation ( even in front of the other guides/gms ), for no reason other than your conclusion.  
64.09[23:23] <Uthgaard> you might not like what you hear from me, but you know i'm always real, and honest, and straightforward. no games or beating around a bush
65.09[23:26] <Uthgaard> the guilty don't abdicate. immediately after you talked to him, he stepped down as guild leader, announced a vacation from the game, and a counter post was made that ceased touting their private vp as an exact copy, and started calling it original work. that wasn't the only post in their forums that implicated what they were doing.
66.09[23:26] <Uthgaard> the innocent don't abdicate i mean*
67.[23:27] <nilbog> there is not evidence in those logs to suggest xzerion was building vp for anyone.  it looked like he was testing ours.  which he used to do, with me, every day.  he was a dumbass for making his in game name the same as his developer name.
68.[23:28] <nilbog> of all the things you should know i care a fucking lot about, is the database.  i LOOKED into it, i do not see the damning evidence you're so sure you see.  if there are things you are not showing me, now is the time
69.09[23:28] <Uthgaard> the only way they would know they had an exact copy is with exact information. the only way the had to get that information was through xzerion. there are logs of him doing everything necessary to get it (in game since he had overlooked status level but no db access). you might remember i started with no db access, but in game commands. i know what it takes to get that information with in game commands. how can you not see it? it's even impossible to prove an alternative.
70.[23:28] <nilbog> rogean and i both.  if it involves a member of the staff, that's what you should do
71.[23:28] <nilbog> which commands.  npcstats, repop, cast spells, which fucking ones.  i know the ones he can do
72.09[23:29] <Uthgaard> he could do all of them, he had 250 status
73.[23:29] <nilbog> thats my point.  i know the ones he can do.  i looked the ones he did.  what in the fuck do you see in there that i don't
74.[23:30] <nilbog> you say i make circular arguments, you should check out your last replies
75.[23:31] <nilbog> afk, please provide me additional evidence, that you are basing your opinions from, to persecute xzerion.
76.09[23:31] <Uthgaard> if you dont see it, you dont see it
77.09[23:40] <Uthgaard> you don't listen to me when it matters. you bend to pressure from guilds and forum idiots. you canned me with less evidence. i've given this server more than anyone else has, and it's been over a year, and still get treated like i'm some sort of an outsider. rogean tries to make every twat that pays him attention a gm, and is so far out of touch he didn't even realize that tmo was da until i told him. you're out of touch as well, i'm one of your biggest resources, but you never contact me. go ahead and make your generalizations that i'm rude and disrespectful. the half the staff that isn't trying to use the server for its own benefit will give you a different story.
78.09[23:46] <Uthgaard> you'll reach your conclusions about me without attempting to gather any evidence, but will ignore anything bad about xzerion no matter how much there is 
79.[23:46] <nilbog> oh i was happy with you when you were a developer.  i don't think you have the right demeanor to work in pr or csr.  log checking?  dupe fixes?  that's what matters.  you say you've given more than anyone else..  you have done a fucking lot of work, that is why i have consistently backed you up.  
80.09[23:47] <Uthgaard> that's why you're so out of touch
81.09[23:47] <Uthgaard> go gather yourself some evidence on that. see what the players think
82.09[23:48] <Uthgaard> because you have no fucking idea how wrong you are about the wrong demeanor for CSR.
83.09[23:48] <Uthgaard> you've been told some slanted stories by people who know you irl, and entire guilds will get up in arms over things i do, because they know how to work you to get what they want
84.09[23:48] <Uthgaard> they have getting something uthgaard did overturned by nilbog down to a science
85.[23:49] <nilbog> you are convinced that a csr role is more important than development.  you can get rid of all the players, and ppl would come play an empty server.  perspective on that.  im out of touch ?  sure, i don't give a fuck who is a popular guild, i treat everyone as an individual.
86.09[23:50] <Uthgaard> this server went to shit the month i backed off. you lost a lot of players until i came back and started handling issues
87.[23:50] <nilbog> know me irl?  you know whats funny about that, is that anyone i actually do know irl gets more scrutiny than me than anyone else.  you don't trust me to make decisions for the server, and for developers, that's where you're wrong as fuck.  i don't lead csr, i make sure the project goes.  
88.[23:50] <nilbog> you can talk to rogean about players.  i like npcs.  you know this.  i don't even like people.  
89.[23:50] <nilbog> but i don't go out of my way to go against them.
90.09[23:50] <Uthgaard> if you're implying that i do, that's what i mean by out of touch
91.09[23:50] <Uthgaard> you have no idea how i am around the players
92.09[23:51] <Uthgaard> you know what? i had this discussion with rogean when he made the same accusation
93.09[23:51] <Uthgaard> he walked away from that argument humbled
94.[23:51] <nilbog> i don't care about the players.  see this again.  every person is an individual.  if they are here for eq, that's why i care.  we should have no interaction with them, is how i feel about it.
95.[23:51] <nilbog> well you're not humbling me with csr positions.  that's his area.
96.09[23:52] <Uthgaard> you don't get to talk shit about me and then backpedal because it's 'not your area'
97.09[23:52] <Uthgaard> as far as things getting leaked go, you dont even want to get started there, because half the server knows you've been trying to get me out of it for as long as i've been in it
98.[23:52] <nilbog> who's stopping you from typing?  im not backpedaling anything.  if you want to dispute something, do so.
99.09[23:52] <Uthgaard> the suspension was just your attempt once you felt you had enough people to handle it
100.09[23:52] <Uthgaard> and that blew up in your face
101.[23:53] <nilbog> lol 
102.09[23:53] <Uthgaard> every time rogean has a beer with the players, the rest of the server hears about it
103.09[23:53] <Uthgaard> and so do i
104.[23:54] <nilbog> you need to take a step back, realize what i do and don't care about, and then we can proceed.  i want the project and the server to continue.  i do not care about trivial things.  if its a bug, i care.  you are making it hard for me as a project manager with some of the decisions you make.  you are not perfect.  
105.[23:54] <nilbog> want rogean to hide his rl?  tell him he should.  i don't even know what you're talking about
106.09[23:54] <Uthgaard> all you ever hear about is the bad, because you've given yourself a reputation for being the way to get what uthgaard did undone, and people have learned what to say and how much to blow it out of proportion to get you to intervene
107.09[23:55] <Uthgaard> and you've heard enough of it that all you have is a slanted, negative perspective of my csr interaction
108.[23:55] <nilbog> you keep saying that dumb shit.  why don't you ask rogean if i am lenient
109.09[23:55] <Uthgaard> you're missing the fucking point
110.[23:55] <nilbog> really?  your 2 superiors agree to something, and you have a terrible way of showing your disagreement?
111.09[23:55] <Uthgaard> you think i'm making it hard for you? you've been making it impossible for me to do any csr. you undermine everything i do, just to get me to stop
112.09[23:56] <Uthgaard> congratufuckinglations, you came up with the idea for p99. that doesn't automatically make you correct in every disagreement
113.[23:56] <nilbog> wrong, fucking wrong.  ask rogean about that too.  you have this assumption that what i do is against you, because it suits your needs right now.  if you look at the history of the project, i am the one supporting you.  
114.[23:56] <nilbog> thanks, that's pointless, and i didn't imply that it did.
115.[23:57] <nilbog> you jump to conclusions.  do you honestly think all the decisions you made have been correct?
116.09[23:57] <Uthgaard> nope. i think this sums it up pretty well
117.09[23:58] <Uthgaard> http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=384011&postcount=112
118.09[23:59] <Uthgaard> i do what i do with a reason. and you had a role in it that worked, until you started getting your perception of my csr tainted by all of the bitching.
119.[23:59] <nilbog> you think its cool to 'bring that home from work' and treat the rest of the p99 staff the same way?
120.[23:59] <nilbog> the staff man, not the players.  you talk to rogean and i like shit, and you should not.
121.09[23:59] <Uthgaard> you think it's cool to change the point every time i make a valid point?
122.Session Time: Thu Sep 01 00:00:00 2011
123.[00:00] <nilbog> that's a perception.  im operating on fact.  you talk to us like shit.  you say, i "think your perception is this"
124.[00:00] <nilbog> most of what you have said on how you think things went down are fucking wrong.  so, what have i said thats in error here?
125.09[00:00] <Uthgaard> you already told me what your perception is
126.09[00:00] <Uthgaard> this is fucking retarded
127.09[00:01] <Uthgaard> you wouldnt get talked to like shit if you didnt argue so fucking obnoxiously. you never once say, gee i see your point, or you know you might have something going there, or i understand why you did that. you just constantly fucking twist and turn and it goes nowhere, ever
128.[00:02] <nilbog> only when we have disagreements.  you fail to see the fact i even in this conversation said i liked you as a developer.  we have had disagreements about csr.  you are talking like its every one of them.
129.[00:02] <nilbog> on average?  your statement is wrong.  i have agreed with you.
130.[00:03] <nilbog> in disagreements, people tend to disagree.  i disagree greatly with some of your csr decisions.  i don't know how i can say that differently.
131.[00:04] <nilbog> do you honestly enjoy doing csr?  
132.[00:05] <nilbog> because i don't have a problem with you until it comes down to how you see situations with people.  whether it is the staff, or just random people.  sometimes you take it too far, and are wrong.
133.09[00:08] <Uthgaard> i can argue with rogean and we reach an agreement at the end, alway
134.09[00:08] <Uthgaard> s
135.09[00:08] <Uthgaard> whether i agree with him or he agrees with me, and it ends in an apology for the heat of the discussion
136.09[00:09] <Uthgaard> when we disagree it's infuriating because you take what i've said apart, take nothing from the points i try to raise, and it accomplishes nothing
137.09[00:10] <Uthgaard> i love doing csr. i care about the players, i take very good care of them. the ones who are fucking someone over get what's coming to them, and that's what the players like about me
138.09[00:10] <Uthgaard> shit, skope fucking hates my guts and he's been begging me to go back to standing up for what i think is right
139.09[00:11] <Uthgaard> read that link i gave you
140.09[00:11] <Uthgaard> read it and understand what i'm saying
141.09[00:12] <Uthgaard> my primary issue is, and has been for a year: you should not bend to pressure for pressure's sake. not from salty because he puts corrupt in a thread title, not from tr because they collaborate to give you shit until you give in
142.09[00:12] <Uthgaard> not to zianlo because he operates an offsite forum
143.09[00:12] <Uthgaard> those people use their leverage
144.09[00:12] <Uthgaard> what i'm trying to tell you is that i understand group psychology very well. i know what i'm doing and i do what i do with a reason
145.[00:12] <nilbog> look, im sorry if i offended you, but there are key points i wanted to make here.  i did read that link, and im telling you that you treat the staff the same way.  you incite and argue where it is completely unnecessary.  if rogean or i tell you to do something, to reverse something, or that we don't agree with you, you don't listen to us.  you argue, and we do not want that.  
146.09[00:13] <Uthgaard> if you read what i said, you'll understand that there used to be a symbiosis to it. i bring down the hammer, and you give the players an avenue of recourse. but they learned how to exploit that
147.[00:14] <nilbog> most of the time?  no fucking problem.  you act like people get appeals all the time.  they most certainly do not.  if they are taken out by no evidence, only suspicion, and its brought to my attention, we have one of these disagreements.
148.09[00:14] <Uthgaard> 90% of the points of contention have been over offsite forum bullshit
149.[00:14] <nilbog> really.  i'd say really only 2 times i even cared what they had to say.  and it was about the project itself.
150.09[00:14] <Uthgaard> yes i am hotheaded and i do give people shit where it's not necessary. i apologize afterward
151.09[00:15] <Uthgaard> but i also stand up for things when i feel strongly about them
152.[00:15] <nilbog> when there is only suspicion, you cannot hunt people down and create evidence that doesn't exist.
153.09[00:16] <Uthgaard> i can't edit logs
154.[00:16] <nilbog> fine, get rogeans opinion on it.  you he and i make csr decisions.  
155.[00:16] <nilbog> i disagree with you.  i can just flat out say, no, do what i say, but i'd rather you understand.
156.[00:17] <nilbog> take a vote on the situation.  if some type of evidence is damning enough to do something, it will be done.  if its suspicion, i can't stand for that.
157.09[00:18] <Uthgaard> do you understand that sometimes there's a process to turning suspicion into evidence?
158.09[00:18] <Uthgaard> i can list many bans that i did on suspicion and coerced the facts from it
159.09[00:18] <Uthgaard> and sometimes you intervene before i'm done
160.[00:19] <nilbog> you do not understand my job here.
161.09[00:19] <Uthgaard> i dont like the idea of banning someone who's innocent
162.09[00:19] <Uthgaard> that makes me feel bad
163.09[00:19] <Uthgaard> ok, let me explain how i view the dynamic with the staff
164.09[00:19] <Uthgaard> ok?
165.[00:20] <nilbog> go ahead man
166.09[00:25] <Uthgaard> i see the strengths and weaknesses of every staff member as something to work with as a cohesive unit. i dont think i get it right all the time, and i don't think anyone does. i see my gruff nature and summary judgments as every bit as necessary as your and rogean's appeals process, and interdependent. just like amelinda is extremely important to bring the softer side for people to cry to and get a bit of mommying, and bort to bring a bit of humor to things, and ezuen to be thoroughly by the book. i don't see that as something bad, or that everyone needs to strive to fit a mold. i see it as all working together. what i would like to see is being able to count on each of those aspects working together, and not having visible cracks that people can exploit with social engineering.
167.09[00:28] <Uthgaard> i've been afraid to crack down on anyone, because i know that certain people will run and tell you and rogean twisted stories, and invent things, and start pickett lines and lynch mobs. and after you hear enough of it, it starts to taint your perception. what you don't understand is that is the exception rather than the rule. 9 out of 10 of my player interactions are very good ones, i bend over backwards to help people who need it, just like i bend over backwards to crush someone who's screwing over another player
168.09[00:32] <Uthgaard> i've threatened things i have no intention of doing and have no possibility to carry out. and it has been effective. tmo used to be incredibly unruly, and that put them in line very quickly. they started following the rules. now the server's raid situation is essentially lawless. when people begin to feel like they have an easy out, by just running and crying, it undermines that process.
169.09[00:35] <Uthgaard> it didn't scare people off the server, and it didn't harm the server's image. one of the basic tenets of having a revolution: Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted. 
170.[00:35] <nilbog> raids are out of control because they aren't being watched.  i suggested some ideas that can be done development wise for security cameras.
171.09[00:36] <Uthgaard> i'm telling you i can get it under control in a week if you just show some unity in the staff and give me some support
172.[00:36] <nilbog> i support you 99% of the time.  when we disagree, its something that you do not yield to.
173.09[00:37] <Uthgaard> do you understand that i take the extreme approach for reasons having more to do with group psychology than intent?
174.09[00:37] <Uthgaard> as long as there's someone above me they can whine to, the server's image isn't harmed
175.09[00:37] <Uthgaard> just give me enough time to do it
176.09[00:38] <Uthgaard> all i have to do is threaten and not have the players get coddled too quickly
177.[00:38] <nilbog> i don't like being used a chess piece, thx.  
178.09[00:38] <Uthgaard> think of it how you like, it's how it worked for the last 4 months of last year
179.09[00:38] <Uthgaard> and it worked
180.09[00:39] <Uthgaard> your dad was an animal psychologist, i'd think you'd understand some of behavorism and positive and negative reinforcement
181.09[00:40] <Uthgaard> that's why i'm nice as shit to the people who are not breaking any rules. positive reinforcement
182.[00:41] <nilbog> you have a problem communicating with rogean and i, and you ruined xzerions reputation on something that should have been just skyped, while you showed us whatever evidence you had.
183.[00:41] <nilbog> this is my current problem with you
184.09[00:41] <Uthgaard> i dont have a problem communicating with rogean
185.[00:41] <nilbog> don't presume to think i do not understand psychology.  there aren't any nilbog hate threads, i play the role i want to play on p99.
186.09[00:42] <Uthgaard> if my evidence wasn't solid, his reputation would be fine
187.09[00:42] <Uthgaard> you're the only person who isn't a tr member who isn't convinced
188.[00:43] <nilbog> k, ask rogean yet?
189.09[00:43] <Uthgaard> i haven't heard back from him in 2 days either
190.[00:43] <nilbog> i wanted that vote.  see, else you're just wrong, with everyone that can vote.  there wasn't 100% evidence, you're still operating on suspicion.
191.[00:43] <nilbog> that is the problem with this shit.
192.09[00:43] <Uthgaard> what percent evidence do you call it?
193.09[00:44] <Uthgaard> the only way it gets any more concrete is with a conversation log showing him giving them the information
194.[00:44] <nilbog> i discussed this at the beginning of the conversation.  i do not see any commands being broken that warrant what you did, and the conclusions that you made.  you might be okay with saying, 'i don't care about their reputation, because i'm right', that isn't an excuse that works in csr.
195.09[00:45] <Uthgaard> right so he abuses his shit (isn't the first time), each time you exonerate it because he gives an excuse, and i'm in the wrong for posting it
196.09[00:45] <Uthgaard> i'm in the wrong for 'damaging his reputation'
197.09[00:46] <Uthgaard> and i'm 'playing a chess game' because i see the staff as a cohesive unit, and you'd rather keep things the way they are, calling the shots with discretionary judgment and a variable standard of evidence
198.[00:46] <nilbog> thats me simply pointing out the side effects of suspicion.  back to facts, yes, i don't see the commands being 'giving away the server', or checking on something content related.  you can't make judgement calls like that.
199.09[00:47] <Uthgaard> what do you think they did?
200.09[00:47] <Uthgaard> where is his development on shit that isn't relevant to his raiding
201.09[00:47] <Uthgaard> there isn't any
202.[00:47] <nilbog> anyways, that was fucked up typing.  the commands looked like he was checking on content, looking around, testing vp and things related to it.  
203.09[00:48] <Uthgaard> yes, so it must all just be one big coincidence, like every time he gets caught
204.09[00:48] <Uthgaard> shit it took you 3 times before you listened about cyrius, because he was a 'nice guy if you spoke german'
205.[00:48] <nilbog> he has given us more 'this shit is too easy' reports than anyone else.  from the beginning.  you are jumping to wild conclusions about a coworker, ill say that again.  expansion DEVELOPER.  so much for that cohesive unit 
206.09[00:48] <Uthgaard> his 'this shit is too easy' is biased around giving them the advantage
207.09[00:49] <Uthgaard> has he given you a 'this shit is too easy' about the spot they're using to heal on trak from? puts the healers at zero risk
208.09[00:49] <Uthgaard> the threads in their forum confirm their motives. they tell you about it once tmo adopts it and start beating them at it. their forums confirm that whole ivandyr hoop thing being to fuck tmo over
209.[00:50] <nilbog> if you do not understand how doing this in the manner that you did is detrimental to developer/staff relations, then you are blind as fuck.
210.09[00:50] <Uthgaard> i'm not jumping to any conclusions here. you're grasping at straws trying to defend him at any cost
211.09[00:50] <Uthgaard> really? and all you can take from it is that i should have done it better?
212.09[00:51] <Uthgaard> well i can't say i didnt expect this to be the waste of time that it was
213.[00:51] <nilbog> im saying you don't have the evidence you need, the way you did it was fucked up, and your conclusion i do not agree with.  that's about it.
214.09[00:51] <Uthgaard> and what do you say to him?
215.[00:52] <nilbog> let me ask rogean what his decision was
216.[00:52] <nilbog> me:  what is your vote for the xzerion evidence?
217.[00:52] <nilbog> guilty or not guilty
218.[00:52] <nilbog>  Sean:  not guilty
219.09[00:53] <Uthgaard> convenient
220.[00:53] <nilbog> so, the situation i have is that you made a decision which affected one of your coworkers, and you do not care.
221.09[00:53] <Uthgaard> he's not one of my co workers
222.09[00:53] <Uthgaard> he doesn't develop anything
223.[00:53] <nilbog> neither do you
224.09[00:53] <Uthgaard> bullfucking shit
225.[00:54] <nilbog> he tests things, you fix random things.  im not claiming to fix everything either.  im saying you don't develop recently.  we haven't really in a while.  i know his changelog post is quite long though, as is yours.
226.09[00:54] <Uthgaard> you know what
227.[00:55] <nilbog> ?
228.09[00:55] <Uthgaard> not everything i've done has gone into a fucking change log
229.09[00:55] <Uthgaard> we dont do changelogs for upcoming content
230.09[00:55] <Uthgaard> and the size of a changelog isn't indicative of the amount of development
231.[00:55] <nilbog> i didn't say it did?  
232.09[00:55] <Uthgaard> you just told me i didnt do any development
233.09[00:55] <Uthgaard> xzerion has not done any development for over a fucking year
234.09[00:57] <Uthgaard> i show you shit that's going wrong and i'm the one getting fucked by it
235.[00:57] <nilbog> he is a developer, which knows eq quite well, especially raiding, and has consistently told me what is wrong with npcs.  you claim he does nothing but help himself.  you are wrong, and at the end, the point is moot.  im sure he will quit developing and playing and it won't be an issue.  your actions directly affected that, and i have a problem with it
236.09[00:57] <Uthgaard> his actions directly affected it
237.[00:58] <nilbog> don't ignore what i said.  yours
238.09[00:58] <Uthgaard> learn to assign responsibility where it's due
239.09[01:00] <Uthgaard> you're trying to blame me for posting that it happened
240.09[01:00] <Uthgaard> yes i should have psychically known how you wanted the evidence that xzerion was abusing his access delivered to you
241.09[01:01] <Uthgaard> since the standard method was suddenly insufficient
242.[01:01] <nilbog> how do you not see wtf im saying.  if you would have presented something rational, he would be removed from development regardless.  thats what you should have said to begin with.  "hi, xzerion doesn't look like he's doing much development".  a decision would have been made, and things would have continued.  instead, i have to argue with you about something that should be so apparent.  what 
243.[01:01] <nilbog> you noticed from event logs are just your suspicions.  you can say all day 'this is absolute evidence', but that's not true.  it was expansion developer checking on content.  your actions directly affected it.  your 2 superiors do not agree with you, and you don't care
244.09[01:02] <Uthgaard> if i didn't care i wouldn't be having this discussion
245.[01:02] <nilbog> k, so when people play in prekunark, you know he developed a lot of that right?  and thats not your coworker
246.09[01:02] <Uthgaard> i could say the opposite, you have evidence that your buddy was abusing his access, and you don't care
247.[01:02] <nilbog> you keep saying buddy, but i never talk to the guy
248.[01:03] <nilbog> until something like this happens, or he is reporting to me about a content issue
249.09[01:03] <Uthgaard> great, he developed stuff 2 years ago. that doesn't make him any more my coworker than tibador was
250.[01:03] <nilbog> yes it does, because he wasn't a developer
251.09[01:04] <Uthgaard> you're really stretching it to suit you
252.09[01:04] <Uthgaard> you want me gone?
253.09[01:04] <Uthgaard> is that where you're going with this?
254.09[01:05] <Uthgaard> you've been throwing out plenty of insults
255.[01:05] <nilbog> i want you to realize what you did, and how that is detrimental, and affected someone in a way it shouldn't have.  devs vs devs in a development hobby is like.. recipe for the end.
256.09[01:05] <Uthgaard> and i see ignoring the obvious as a recipe for the end
257.09[01:05] <Uthgaard> do you think i'm doing this for me?
258.09[01:05] <Uthgaard> what benefit do you think i get out of it
259.09[01:06] <Uthgaard> i stood up for the server, one of many times that i've been admonished for it
260.[01:13] <nilbog> i have repeatedly said the same things in here.  here we go :  the way you went about attacking a coworker isn't your place.  it is the fact that he had a play character that somehow makes you think you can manage him as a dev.  it seems like a direct action to take to rogean and i, no one else.  its him, connecting to my server, with a dev account.  that has nothing to do with the staff.  
261.[01:13] <nilbog> your action, which i disagreed with, ultimately affected a dev.  
262.09[01:13] <Uthgaard> k
263.09[01:14] <Uthgaard> im tired of arguing it
264.09[01:14] <Uthgaard> whatever you say boss
265.09[01:14] <Uthgaard> you know what's best
266.09[01:15] <Uthgaard> you could have deleted the post after you read it
267.09[01:15] <Uthgaard> if you didnt like where it was
268.09[01:15] <Uthgaard> or said something to me
269.09[01:15] <Uthgaard> instead you're just using it as a talking point to distract from the real issue
270.09[01:18] <Uthgaard> sorry if that made too much sense
271.[01:18] <nilbog> do you usually poke and prod people like that?
272.09[01:19] <Uthgaard> when they insult me
273.09[01:20] <Uthgaard> lets see, you put no value on the csr work i've done, you say i'm not doing any development, what motivation do i have to even give a flying fuck what you think
274.[01:20] <nilbog> thats all you took from that?
275.09[01:20] <Uthgaard> without rehashing the whole xzerion thing
276.09[01:20] <Uthgaard> yes