Sep 22 19:36:25 * RayJay (RayJay@synIRC-529E4D6D.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #council Sep 22 19:36:26 * ChanServ sets mode +a #council RayJay Sep 22 19:36:26 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to RayJay Sep 22 19:37:03 hi Sep 22 19:37:07 em Sep 22 19:37:08 iss Sep 22 19:37:09 prem Sep 22 19:37:10 comatt Sep 22 19:37:18 if you're ready, we can begin discussion. Sep 22 19:39:45 sure thing Sep 22 19:39:51 i still don't have sops Sep 22 19:39:52 w/e Sep 22 19:41:25 ok Sep 22 19:41:26 so Sep 22 19:41:26 ready if everyone else is Sep 22 19:41:35 let's start with drilbur Sep 22 19:41:39 can we start with drilbur? i'm still-- Sep 22 19:41:39 ok Sep 22 19:41:43 rayjay knows me Sep 22 19:41:49 ...... / double sand rush Sep 22 19:42:01 double sand rush is powerful Sep 22 19:42:11 but can be played against properly Sep 22 19:42:33 but it's hard to find a team (IMO) that works well against double rush AND works against other teams in the meta Sep 22 19:43:11 see i disagree Sep 22 19:43:19 how so Sep 22 19:43:22 hi Sep 22 19:43:22 tons of players are using Snover, who frankly stomps double rush even more than sand rush Sep 22 19:43:30 ok i can come one sec Sep 22 19:43:30 well the problem with that is Sep 22 19:43:39 snover can't switch in directly Sep 22 19:43:43 because rock slide Sep 22 19:43:55 ok by that argument Sep 22 19:44:04 so it HAS to come in on eq or sd Sep 22 19:44:08 or revenge kill Sep 22 19:44:09 it's important to note that half your team can't come in on Snover Sep 22 19:44:11 snover comes in on hippo Sep 22 19:44:28 this is true Sep 22 19:44:47 side note: if this is being recorded or whatever, v0x is a bitch. Sep 22 19:44:52 * elevator_music has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi) Sep 22 19:45:02 * elevator_music (str@ng.pkmn.weak.pkmn.that.is.only.the.selfish.perception.of.people) has joined #council Sep 22 19:45:02 * ChanServ sets mode +a #council elevator_music Sep 22 19:45:02 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to elevator_music Sep 22 19:45:07 beyond snover, i struggle to see how double rush breaks through mienfoo 100% of the time Sep 22 19:45:16 and mienfoo is easily the most common poke Sep 22 19:45:19 what's the calc Sep 22 19:45:26 of a +2 sd sandshrew EQ Sep 22 19:45:33 +2 drilbur EQ is easy ohko Sep 22 19:45:38 unless i'm sadly mistaken Sep 22 19:45:47 assuming both have eviolite Sep 22 19:45:57 it does not ohko mienfoo Sep 22 19:46:04 ok see my real problem with double rush Sep 22 19:46:13 unless i am also sadly mistaken Sep 22 19:46:13 hmm Sep 22 19:46:14 is that you have to use only 3 pokemon to cover the rest of the metagame Sep 22 19:46:18 after rocks it's a ko Sep 22 19:46:26 uhm what calc are you using Sep 22 19:46:26 unless i'm thinking about a different spread Sep 22 19:46:27 because hippo/drilbur/sandshrew all have the same like Sep 22 19:46:35 we're talking about a 0/196 right Sep 22 19:46:38 handful of pokemon they can come in on, yknow? Sep 22 19:46:40 ray jay i Sep 22 19:46:48 *i'm not, i'm going off of past experience Sep 22 19:46:49 s Sep 22 19:46:52 which...all had rocks down Sep 22 19:46:55 because i've used my defensive mienfoo as essentially my sole drilbur / sandshrew counter and lost to double rush maybe once Sep 22 19:47:07 do you also use snover? Sep 22 19:47:15 no Sep 22 19:47:17 oh Sep 22 19:47:24 rayjay which calc are you using Sep 22 19:47:26 i need a reference Sep 22 19:47:35 you SHOULD be using masara Sep 22 19:47:39 ok Sep 22 19:47:47 my mienfoo is impish Sep 22 19:47:48 156 hp Sep 22 19:47:52 196 def Sep 22 19:47:54 oh impish 156/196 Sep 22 19:47:55 i see Sep 22 19:47:59 that would prevent an OHKO Sep 22 19:48:03 real niggas do calcs out by hand Sep 22 19:48:06 hahaha Sep 22 19:48:31 this being said, I'm NOT saying drilbur is broken Sep 22 19:48:37 I just want to throw this out there Sep 22 19:48:37 alright Sep 22 19:48:47 i mean i've heard the "arguments" for it being broken Sep 22 19:48:59 but i just have not seen a team comp with double rush that blows me away Sep 22 19:49:00 as have i Sep 22 19:49:05 word Sep 22 19:49:12 have you played heysup? Sep 22 19:49:31 no because heysup doesnt really battle x.x Sep 22 19:49:37 heysup cant battle i thought Sep 22 19:49:51 no he's good Sep 22 19:49:53 he claims to have gone 28-2 or some horse shit like that with a double rush Sep 22 19:50:03 he just doesnt play lc much anymore Sep 22 19:50:04 I don't believe my double rush team can perform that well Sep 22 19:51:51 i mean i think it's pretty much understood at this point that drilbur is just frankly not broken by itself Sep 22 19:51:55 ^ Sep 22 19:51:57 agreed. Sep 22 19:52:05 and sand rush is just balanced by the fact that it takes 3 team slots Sep 22 19:52:12 double rush, excuse me Sep 22 19:52:31 you are excused Sep 22 19:52:57 so do you two have any other notes on that? Sep 22 19:53:06 yeah kinda Sep 22 19:53:16 but it's just going to be a reiteration of what we've already said Sep 22 19:53:41 go ahead Sep 22 19:53:47 it's pretty much: without sand, drilbur is a support option with rapid spin; stealth rock; and mold breaker yes it beats koffing and bronzor but no one cares support isn't broken Sep 22 19:54:20 iss is dumb Sep 22 19:54:25 prem sucks penises Sep 22 19:54:30 lol charmander Sep 22 19:54:39 sup Sep 22 19:55:01 with ONLY hippopotas as part of a sandstorm team, the only way drilbur can sweep is if it comes in lategame and manages to set up swords dance; however, players usually come prepared with 1-3 checks to drilbur so it cannot do that effectively Sep 22 19:55:23 yeah alright Sep 22 19:55:35 since no one else is here yet, i think we can probably talk about murkrow for a bit Sep 22 19:56:30 with Hippopotas AND sandshrew as a part of a sandstorm team, you are limited to the remaining slots and pretty much have to base the remaining half of the team to countering anti-sand/hail while your opponent may only need 1-2 pokemon to counter sand and can use 1-2 more pokemon to beat your counters and use the remaining mons to counter standard threats Sep 22 19:57:02 that's all i have on drilbur Sep 22 19:57:07 yeah Sep 22 19:57:11 basically three ground-types Sep 22 19:57:16 makes your team already kind of weak Sep 22 19:57:18 you'll need like Sep 22 19:57:21 Did everything I said make sense? Sep 22 19:57:22 slowpoke bronzor lileep Sep 22 19:57:23 or something Sep 22 19:57:31 yup @ comatt Sep 22 19:57:33 you pretty much NEED lileep and/or croagunk for water Sep 22 19:57:39 and then uhhh Sep 22 19:57:45 something for grass bronzor makes sense Sep 22 19:58:21 * Aerrow (~aerrow@synIRC-561E7DD6.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #council Sep 22 19:58:21 * ChanServ sets mode +q #council Aerrow Sep 22 19:58:21 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Aerrow Sep 22 19:58:32 hi aerrow Sep 22 19:58:42 we just finished discussing drilbur with the parties present Sep 22 19:58:43 hey aerrow Sep 22 19:58:50 now we're gonna move on to murkrow Sep 22 19:58:51 lol you mean 2 members + charmander Sep 22 19:58:57 so pretty much 2.5 members Sep 22 19:59:07 no Sep 22 19:59:07 alright Sep 22 19:59:07 me Sep 22 19:59:08 em Sep 22 19:59:08 Save the logs Sep 22 19:59:08 where is bloserajan? Sep 22 19:59:09 All of it Sep 22 19:59:09 iss Sep 22 19:59:12 you Sep 22 19:59:13 em didn't really talk Sep 22 19:59:16 iss is here? Sep 22 19:59:18 prem is here? Sep 22 19:59:21 iss is in the channel Sep 22 19:59:23 ALL OF IT Sep 22 19:59:27 ok Sep 22 19:59:29 yeah i am saving the logs Sep 22 19:59:29 alright? Sep 22 19:59:39 can i make a quick shout out Sep 22 19:59:44 now that we're saving ALL the logs? Sep 22 19:59:46 wait aerrow if one of the permanent members has to quit i replace them right Sep 22 19:59:57 yea Sep 22 20:00:00 yeah also charmander has the right to chime into this discussion Sep 22 20:00:00 ok cool Sep 22 20:00:08 that's fair Sep 22 20:00:12 charmander is cool Sep 22 20:00:15 charmander sux 8===D Sep 22 20:00:15 yes obv meander has ther right Sep 22 20:00:26 charmander is minimember? Sep 22 20:00:28 em Sep 22 20:00:33 why did you show up to this while high Sep 22 20:00:38 this is supposed to be serious Sep 22 20:00:39 9.9 Sep 22 20:00:59 haha i'll be on my best behavior Sep 22 20:01:04 so murkrow Sep 22 20:01:05 everyone stfu and talk serious Sep 22 20:01:06 em start us off Sep 22 20:01:09 what do you think Sep 22 20:01:10 lol Sep 22 20:01:14 I love em when hes high Sep 22 20:01:18 i posted my opinion in the thread Sep 22 20:01:23 (and im actually not high lol) Sep 22 20:01:24 but Sep 22 20:01:27 ok Sep 22 20:01:31 I love em when he acts high* Sep 22 20:01:34 * blarajan (~blarajan@synIRC-998F151F.wireless.umd.edu) has joined #council Sep 22 20:01:34 * ChanServ sets mode +a #council blarajan Sep 22 20:01:34 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to blarajan Sep 22 20:01:37 about time Sep 22 20:01:38 I'll be listening for the most part btw Sep 22 20:01:40 lol Sep 22 20:01:47 look what the cat dragged in........ Sep 22 20:01:49 yo Sep 22 20:01:54 blarajan Sep 22 20:01:56 hi blara! Sep 22 20:01:57 before Sep 22 20:02:03 we go on to murkrow Sep 22 20:02:04 btw aerrow could i get sops on this channel Sep 22 20:02:06 thoughts on drilbur and double rush Sep 22 20:02:08 i feel inadequate Sep 22 20:03:42 blarajan answer the questionb Sep 22 20:03:44 question Sep 22 20:03:50 i'll give my opinion Sep 22 20:03:51 sorry my laptop was being silly Sep 22 20:03:57 uhhh Sep 22 20:04:00 like you said it gives you three snover weak mons Sep 22 20:04:09 its can wreck non snover teams or non sand teams Sep 22 20:04:15 but if you dont have a check you deserve to lose anyway Sep 22 20:04:28 the problem with double rush isnt not having a check Sep 22 20:04:30 lol Sep 22 20:04:38 its centralizing but Sep 22 20:04:40 the point of double rush is to try and win even though you do have a check Sep 22 20:04:41 double rush requires you to use three mono ground type pokemon on the same team Sep 22 20:04:45 centralization isnt ground to be banned Sep 22 20:04:50 being plan broken is Sep 22 20:04:54 and sandrush is pretty far from that Sep 22 20:04:56 lol Sep 22 20:05:00 plain* Sep 22 20:05:08 also can missy be a suspect Sep 22 20:05:16 no Sep 22 20:05:16 or are we past that stage Sep 22 20:05:19 which is pretty problematic in a tier like little cup Sep 22 20:05:19 fine Sep 22 20:05:26 lol we are going to vote tonight charmander Sep 22 20:06:05 missy isn't broken >< Sep 22 20:06:13 we've gotten a tad bit off topic haven't we Sep 22 20:06:25 yeah Sep 22 20:06:27 im j/s Sep 22 20:06:27 ok blarajan any other thoughts? Sep 22 20:06:28 but go on Sep 22 20:06:41 synergetic issues like that really matter Sep 22 20:06:57 likewise honestly if you check one of them you check both Sep 22 20:07:35 what is your response to the potential naysayers that say sandshrew wears down drilbur's checks? Sep 22 20:08:36 who..cares? that's what playing pokemon does? you use things to wear down checks? Sep 22 20:08:44 makes sense Sep 22 20:08:51 alright so i think we're all pretty much in agreement there Sep 22 20:09:12 i have to go afk for a bit, so we'll either vote later tonight or via pm Sep 22 20:09:23 in the meantime, discuss murkrow Sep 22 20:09:27 * RayJay is now known as AwayJay Sep 22 20:09:33 you're the one that scheduled this... Sep 22 20:09:36 lol Sep 22 20:09:52 i had to schedule a time that worked best for the council as a whole Sep 22 20:10:06 which is more than just me Sep 22 20:10:10 lol Sep 22 20:10:12 * MarceloDK (~MarceloDK@BBC2B918.98FA4916.E778BCE0.IP) has joined #council Sep 22 20:10:13 * ChanServ sets mode +a #council MarceloDK Sep 22 20:10:13 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to MarceloDK Sep 22 20:10:15 look at rayjay Sep 22 20:10:19 being the pragmatic man Sep 22 20:10:22 hey marcelo Sep 22 20:10:25 thoughts on: Drilbur Sep 22 20:10:27 hi Sep 22 20:10:29 n_n Sep 22 20:10:31 by itself / part of SS / double rush Sep 22 20:11:21 i'm like 35/4 on ps with an alt Sep 22 20:11:32 cool Sep 22 20:11:34 3 loses to dc or a lot of hax Sep 22 20:11:43 and 1 to oposing sand team Sep 22 20:11:57 ~using a double rush team~ Sep 22 20:12:00 why do we care about thaht? Sep 22 20:12:03 that* Sep 22 20:12:10 loladder Sep 22 20:12:18 i've gone 35-0 on the ru ladder using electivire and metang Sep 22 20:12:24 hm k Sep 22 20:12:25 the ladder means nothing Sep 22 20:12:29 lc ladder means even less Sep 22 20:12:36 people think iss is a top player Sep 22 20:12:40 you know tath's sad Sep 22 20:13:02 lol Sep 22 20:13:24 lol Sep 22 20:13:47 blara so blunt Sep 22 20:15:38 it's true Sep 22 20:15:47 anyways Sep 22 20:17:42 my point is that double rush gives you an instant advantage vs. other kind of teams Sep 22 20:17:53 it comes at a big cost though :( Sep 22 20:18:02 is you support it correctly Sep 22 20:18:06 *if Sep 22 20:18:12 you can say the same thing for like Sep 22 20:18:15 riolu though :( Sep 22 20:18:51 u just need keep harzards out and/or carry prioritys to beat riolu Sep 22 20:19:06 but double rush u cant beat even with snover or pory scarf or bronzor Sep 22 20:20:17 yes you can..? Sep 22 20:20:20 see heysup's team: hippo sand drilbur wynaut houndour Sep 22 20:20:21 you're both underestimating the effectiveness of riolu and overestimating double rush -.- Sep 22 20:20:21 yeah...you can Sep 22 20:20:34 how can a snover beat this? Sep 22 20:20:39 double trap... Sep 22 20:20:45 yeah Sep 22 20:20:48 run lileep and staryu Sep 22 20:20:56 you mean heysup effectively built a team to well support a strategy? Sep 22 20:21:02 okay im here Sep 22 20:21:07 or any two pokemon that moles cant set up on Sep 22 20:21:10 heaven's forbid Sep 22 20:21:35 i mean this strategy cant be countered with standard teams Sep 22 20:21:43 hi prem Sep 22 20:21:53 hi Sep 22 20:21:58 that's really not true lol Sep 22 20:21:58 i mean Sep 22 20:22:12 you're about to use bronzor and shroo in the same team? Sep 22 20:22:15 i play fairly standard things lol Sep 22 20:22:23 no Sep 22 20:22:26 i hardly use either of those pokemon Sep 22 20:22:26 because you dont need to Sep 22 20:22:39 and i never have issues with double rushh Sep 22 20:22:42 as it's not a problem Sep 22 20:22:55 i have issues single rush! Sep 22 20:22:56 or your oponents sucks Sep 22 20:23:02 but my teams are kinda odd Sep 22 20:23:29 i really don't get what the problem is Sep 22 20:23:32 lol Sep 22 20:23:55 its too strong and fast and doesnt get ohkoed by all forms of priority Sep 22 20:24:02 well Sep 22 20:24:03 really strong Sep 22 20:24:05 and too fast Sep 22 20:24:08 this Sep 22 20:24:14 im not saying too strong Sep 22 20:24:20 drilbur is strong Sep 22 20:24:23 even though i agree that drilbur should be banned Sep 22 20:24:24 no one is going to debate that Sep 22 20:24:31 both are strong Sep 22 20:24:42 but thats my opinion based on me trying to like completely counter sand teams and still failr Sep 22 20:24:43 +2 sd lo can 1hko everything, but bronzor Sep 22 20:24:44 fail Sep 22 20:24:54 lileep Sep 22 20:24:55 +2 sd lo is also very hard to set up Sep 22 20:24:55 oh hi Sep 22 20:24:56 i'm here Sep 22 20:24:58 im sure running lo staryu doesnt help.... Sep 22 20:24:59 is never ohkoed by +2 life orb Sep 22 20:25:00 lol iss Sep 22 20:25:00 lileep probably dies Sep 22 20:25:02 ok Sep 22 20:25:02 sorry Sep 22 20:25:03 just saying Sep 22 20:25:06 it's never ohkoed Sep 22 20:25:07 nah Sep 22 20:25:08 it isnt? Sep 22 20:25:08 lileep will lose to a +2 LO eq Sep 22 20:25:10 nope Sep 22 20:25:12 96% max Sep 22 20:25:13 isnt hard to setup Sep 22 20:25:14 i call bullshit Sep 22 20:25:15 the problem is Sep 22 20:25:16 you have rocks Sep 22 20:25:18 want to bet? Sep 22 20:25:19 if you are running hippo Sep 22 20:25:20 thing is Sep 22 20:25:21 getting an sd with lo Sep 22 20:25:22 actually Sep 22 20:25:23 is impossible Sep 22 20:25:23 sand can setup in mienfoo and a lot of things Sep 22 20:25:23 lol Sep 22 20:25:25 * Aerrow has kicked comatt6 from #council (Aerrow) Sep 22 20:25:25 okay well if you're running fucking sd on lo Sep 22 20:25:29 * comatt6 (~com@synIRC-1883DAA4.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #council Sep 22 20:25:29 * ChanServ sets mode +a #council comatt6 Sep 22 20:25:29 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to comatt6 Sep 22 20:25:29 iss thats not impossible at all lol Sep 22 20:25:32 thank you Sep 22 20:25:37 no Sep 22 20:25:39 i just lost all the logs now Sep 22 20:25:40 thing is Sep 22 20:25:41 but ya its very difficult to set up Sep 22 20:25:44 np* Sep 22 20:25:44 prem it's pretty hard if you have an opponent who has any idea what they're doing Sep 22 20:25:49 also priority ... Sep 22 20:25:52 priority... Sep 22 20:25:55 lol Sep 22 20:25:59 well then there's protect =/ Sep 22 20:26:01 the common one is groagunk vw? Sep 22 20:26:05 eq + rs is pretty good coverage Sep 22 20:26:06 what else is common Sep 22 20:26:10 mienfoo fake out Sep 22 20:26:11 sandsherew dgaf about priority Sep 22 20:26:13 murkrow sucker punch Sep 22 20:26:14 or are we not talking about fake out Sep 22 20:26:15 just aqua jet, but lol Sep 22 20:26:15 is fake out still common? Sep 22 20:26:17 sandshrew and drilbur and hippo share a lot of pokemon that the former two cant set up on and are threatened by Sep 22 20:26:19 sandshrew is weak though Sep 22 20:26:19 murkrow wins anyway Sep 22 20:26:22 no matter what Sep 22 20:26:25 the problem is if you go double rush Sep 22 20:26:26 murkrow sucker punch doens't ohko sandshrew Sep 22 20:26:28 you cant cover all of them with 3 pokemon Sep 22 20:26:30 you only have two slots left Sep 22 20:26:32 three* Sep 22 20:26:38 so you actually just die to stuff like Sep 22 20:26:39 so all the opponent needs to do Sep 22 20:26:39 @emma Sep 22 20:26:43 you don't need to Sep 22 20:26:43 is keep one of those pokemon in Sep 22 20:26:46 snover or scarf porygon or anything Sep 22 20:26:46 lol Sep 22 20:26:50 it's a offensive team Sep 22 20:27:02 u don't need to cover everything Sep 22 20:27:03 yeah but if you have nothing that can switch into like Sep 22 20:27:04 lileep Sep 22 20:27:05 marcelo you're completely and utterly overestimating how easy it is to slap on an offensive little cup team and win Sep 22 20:27:06 or staryu Sep 22 20:27:12 you're going to lose Sep 22 20:27:14 you're taking prem's side of the argument Sep 22 20:27:18 because he uses offensive teams Sep 22 20:27:18 i mean snover simply shits on double rush completely tbh Sep 22 20:27:23 double rush is an autoloss vs snover Sep 22 20:27:25 guess how often he actually wins? Sep 22 20:27:27 lol Sep 22 20:27:29 not frequently Sep 22 20:27:30 iss Sep 22 20:27:31 I use offensive teams Sep 22 20:27:31 lol Sep 22 20:27:33 that being said Sep 22 20:27:36 there are ways around a snover Sep 22 20:27:38 by offensive i mean Sep 22 20:27:40 in a double rush team lol Sep 22 20:27:43 let's run life orb on everything!! Sep 22 20:27:43 I do not believe that drilbur/double rush is broken Sep 22 20:27:43 hippo sand drilbur wynaut houndour lileep Sep 22 20:27:50 lol blara Sep 22 20:27:53 lol blara Sep 22 20:27:55 ok so you are pretty shit on by lileep Sep 22 20:27:56 i dont do that much anymore Sep 22 20:27:56 lileep can switch on staryu and lileep Sep 22 20:27:56 in its entirety Sep 22 20:28:03 toxic lileep Sep 22 20:28:06 still Sep 22 20:28:08 fucks with that team Sep 22 20:28:09 the problem remains Sep 22 20:28:10