1[21:59] strong tl;dr post yn/ 01[21:59] :) [21:59] eh [21:59] started off well [21:59] deviated from its purpose i think 01[22:00] o [22:00] plus it said cryo loses to queen 01[22:00] cryo [22:00] which is :( 01[22:00] does indeed lose to queen lol 01[22:00] :p [22:00] nu-uh 01[22:00] we went over this [22:00] remember we discussed this 01[22:00] like yesterday 01[22:00] v_v 01[22:00] cryo 01[22:00] CHECKS nidoqueen [22:00] and said that most of the time cryo wins [22:00] lol 01[22:00] i would never rely on it as a counter tho [22:01] you kind of said [22:01] okay offense has no problems [22:01] balance generally does okay [22:01] and then ignored the stall side of what they can use to beat it [22:01] which is somewhat of a misrepresentation 01[22:02] well i did kinda touch on it [22:02] and then i took issue to this [22:02] "Remember, we banned Cresselia because it centralized the metagame around it and made stall far too dominant over offense and balance. Now, Nidoqueen is doing the exact same thing," 01[22:02] in the 5th paragraph 01[22:02] well 01[22:02] it kinda does lol [22:02] because i think its fallacious to compre the two when you consider the degrees to which the meta shifted 1[22:02] true 01[22:02] but [22:02] the cress shift was ridiculous 01[22:02] consider the fact that 01[22:02] we literally just shifted 01[22:02] from a stall dominated metagame 01[22:02] to a metagame dominated by heavy offense 01[22:03] that is a ridiculously huge shift [22:03] yes, we went from a meta dominated by offense, brought in cress which changed it to stall, removed cress and reverted to offense [22:03] im not seeing the problem here [22:03] because obviously cress was the problem 01[22:03] yes, but 01[22:03] see, the reason we went from offense to stall [22:03] is cause of cress 01[22:03] was because cresselia marginalized nidoqueen [22:04] no, its cause cress marginalized everything lol 01[22:04] i suppose that's true too 01[22:04] but 01[22:04] BEFORE bw2 01[22:04] we were at balance 01[22:04] then shifted to offense 01[22:04] and tbh there were really 01[22:04] not a lot of pokemon that got buffs which would cause that from bw2 [22:04] before bw2 we more stall oriented [22:05] than balance imo 01[22:05] nahh 01[22:05] balance for sure 01[22:05] stall was only for a time [22:05] it was mostly stall, defensive balance and heavy offense 01[22:05] of like a month 01[22:05] but that was a really good metagame imo [22:05] not much full balance or bulky offnese 01[22:05] not just because i like stall 01[22:05] but because [22:05] see this is why i have a problem [22:05] with suspects like this 01[22:05] there's a very strong balance between all three archetypes [22:05] people get into ideas [22:05] of which meta is better [22:05] and that is 100% opinion based 01[22:05] no [22:05] nidoquen is not objectively broken 01[22:06] what i'm not saying we should be back to that metagame [22:06] and should not be banned 01[22:06] what i'm saying 01[22:06] is that it is indeed objectively broken 01[22:06] because of the way it shifts the metagame 01[22:06] around it 01[22:06] ...just like cresselia [22:06] being a centralising figure=/=broken [22:06] would you agree that dragonite was the centralising figure of BW ou? [22:06] pre bw2 01[22:06] being a centralising figure 01[22:06] that also unvalidates a team archetype 01[22:06] makes it broken 01[22:06] *invalidates [22:06] i disagree 01[22:07] AND [22:07] and we've discussed this 01[22:07] drastically makes another team archetype 01[22:07] dominant [22:07] and i dont think it invalidates a team type 01[22:07] ofc that is an exaggeration 01[22:07] stall is "viable" 01[22:07] by the lightest extension of the word [22:07] yes it is and its annoying me :( 01[22:07] im sorry ;_; [22:07] making sweeping generalizations 01[22:07] i'm very hyped up atm about this [22:07] is the fastest way to tick me off 01[22:07] because blarajan kept trolling me and this is a very serious matter 1[22:07] :( 01[22:07] ok, fine [22:08] you do understand though what it looks like 01[22:08] nidoqueen shifts the metagame so that stall is significantly less viable 01[22:08] better? 01[22:08] :) [22:08] this position coming from a primarily stall known player [22:08] yes that is an accurate and less gnereal statement 01[22:08] yes of course [22:08] so i can accept that 01[22:08] but 01[22:09] as per the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread 01[22:09] which is outdated as fuck, but still 01[22:09] " 01[22:09] All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other. " [22:09] I cannot and will not support a ban based on teh Pokmon in question shifting the metagame 01[22:09] i cannot support having a pokemon in the tier [22:09] because every single Pokemon has the capability to shift the metagame in some form 01[22:09] that blatantly 01[22:09] ignores this characteristic 01[22:09] yes [22:09] sv, there is no objective way to classift that statement [22:10] or to put nidoqueen within these classifications 01[22:10] i would argue that there is though 01[22:10] :( [22:10] this would be a lot faster and simpler [22:10] if we just picked a definition of broken [22:10] and stuck to it >_> 01[22:11] except [22:11] maybe i'll search a PR thread or something 01[22:11] nidoqueen is legitimately 01[22:11] objectively broken imo 01[22:11] >.> [22:11] i dsiagree 01[22:11] it's about [22:11] i know blarajan does too 01[22:11] as broken as salamence in dpp ou 01[22:11] imo :/ [22:11] i think a lot of people do [22:11] not comparable [22:11] nidoqueen has one set 01[22:11] incorrect 01[22:11] nidoqueen has one set 01[22:11] with many potential variations [22:11] salamence had two that contributed to its suspect and banning 01[22:12] that's like saying cresselia only had one set [22:12] point being that they arent comparable 01[22:12] when it had more, but people didn't use them [22:12] fundamentally 01[22:12] well, i mean, you could always use 01[22:12] physical nidoqueen i guess... [22:12] mence had two suspect worthy sets 01[22:12] it also smashes gardevoir too :) [22:12] queen has one with some variation [22:13] "Why the fuck is everyone so damn ban happy all of a sudden? It seems to me and a few other members I've spoken to that a lot of the community is simply unwilling to accept a lot of the changes from Gen 4 to Gen 5 and to put it bluntly is just trying to make Gen 5 as similar to Gen 4 as possible because that was their comfort zone." [22:13] "There is definitely a pretty big difference in terms of offensive capabilities when comparing the two metagames and for the most part it seems like a lot of the community is just lazy and wants to play a metagame where they feel comfortable being able to switch from counter to counter for everything." [22:13] from a thread i just clicked on [22:13] "It seems we've been moving from banning only that which is broken, only what must be banned to have a balanced metagame, to attempting to ban everything we don't like." [22:14] ete