1[20:25] tho seriously texas 01[20:25] gimme some counters to queen 01[20:25] that beat a lot of other pokes 01[20:25] :) [20:25] fable, uxie, offensive teams [20:25] ! [20:26] and druddi/tomb as checks 01[20:27] tomb 01[20:27] is a pretty shitty check 01[20:27] because it's only avoids being 2hkoed if it's sdef 01[20:27] and can only burn in return :( 01[20:27] fable doesn't really check that much [20:28] sucker does a lot 01[20:28] and has to use softboiled to beat queen, which means that 01[20:28] it can't beat moltres [20:28] and most tomb i see switch in take like 40 01[20:28] o.o [20:28] i think ghost resists poison does it not? 01[20:28] 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Spiritomb: 168-199 (55.26 - 65.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 01[20:28] well i guess 01[20:29] it's a decent check 01[20:29] but you can't really afford just checks on stall 01[20:29] especially when you're up against nidoqueen who's so difficult to wear down [20:29] why are you using just a spiritomb to check queen if you;re running stall >_> 01[20:29] ok OBviously you can use 01[20:29] other mons 01[20:29] i suppose cryo / slowking / spiritomb can CHECK queen 01[20:30] but that's still a mediocre at best answer to queen [20:30] use like lickilicky, uxie and sdef slowking [20:30] if you want to stall 01[20:30] what does 01[20:30] lickilicky beat other than nidoqueen [20:30] sdef slowking is a p strong answer to queen i think [20:30] moltres 01[20:30] sdef slowking is ok i guess [20:30] other special attackers 01[20:30] nah licki loses to that too 01[20:30] >.> [20:30] sdef slowking takes what 01[20:30] and it suffers from the same problem as clefable [20:30] 50ish from lo tbolt? [20:30] and nothing from anything else 01[20:30] in that it's forced to wish + protect every time it comes in on queen 01[20:30] troo 01[20:30] sdef slowking is ok 01[20:31] though that means that you'll need another answer to stuff like entei [20:31] qwilfish strong 01[20:31] uxie tho [20:31] since spikes wears down queen too 01[20:31] is not a mon that i'd personally use on stall 01[20:31] idk, i've just never seen it work on a successful stall team tbh 01[20:31] so basically there's like [20:32] i think that uxie is stuck a lot in traditional roles 01[20:32] sdef slowking and gardevoir [20:32] and its rarely adapted for stall 01[20:32] and a bunch of checks [20:32] no silentverse [20:32] uxie is in there too 01[20:32] i suppose [20:32] just because you wnt use it doesnt mean it isnt legi 01[20:32] ok, sdef slowking, gardevoir, and uxie [20:32] aside from that more or less yes [20:32] licky and fable are stronger checks 01[20:32] eh [20:32] bulky psychics etc 01[20:32] licky and fable 01[20:32] can't really do much back to queen t ho [20:33] heal+stoss 01[20:33] they can't toxic, so they can only whittle it down with stoss or slam 01[20:33] that's pretty risky tho [20:33] although [20:33] if it body slams [20:33] and queen gets para'd 01[20:33] because you're like 4hkoing queen [20:33] ! 01[20:33] and you gotta hope that it doesn't get a crit 01[20:33] which is very likely to happen [20:33] sheer forc enegates crits [20:33] ! 01[20:33] considering how many times it's hitting your mons 01[20:33] f'naaa 01[20:33] x) 01[20:34] so yeah, i mean 01[20:34] licki and clefable are ok 01[20:34] but having used them, idk i just hate how they basically only beat queen 01[20:34] and not much else :/ 01[20:34] + the bulky psychics are really really vulnerable to pursuit [20:34] so we're saying it has 3 good and viable queen counters, a few strong checks and a bunch of weaker checks [20:34] in terms of stall 01[20:35] yes [20:35] queen + pursuit i dont think is worth banning though [20:35] thats almost the same concept as dragmag 01[20:35] well 01[20:35] perhaps not 01[20:35] but it does show how easy 01[20:35] it can be to support queen 01[20:36] and remove it's counters [20:36] certainly, and if you are dedicated to creating a full stall team such things must be considered when teambuilding 01[20:36] idk queen is a tough pickle 01[20:36] troo 01[20:36] except it's very difficult 1[20:36] to counter queen + pursuit 01[20:37] and considering how widely it's used [20:37] i would imagine that to be true 01[20:37] it's a very big problem imo [20:37] stuff like reflect cryo can handle it tho 01[20:37] reflect cryo is ok [20:37] and cryo is now ev'd to beat queen [20:37] so it can reflect stall 01[20:37] it still checks [20:37] for misses/pp 01[20:37] queen 01[20:37] :/ [20:37] *recover 01[20:37] fire blast does a shitton tho [20:37] like 65ish 01[20:37] yeah 01[20:38] which is more than cryo can recover [20:38] so its netting 9% each recover+lefites 01[20:38] + the 25% from sr [20:38] and FB only has 8 PP 01[20:38] it's dying really quick still tho [20:38] so it has to predict the switch with FB [20:38] and then then hit two more [20:38] without getting killed by IB 01[20:38] not necessarily 01[20:38] tbolt / sludge wave on the switch work just fine [20:38] 9% net, three=37 [20:38] *27 [20:39] ah, but then you're starting from a 100%ish cryo [20:39] after attack, rocks, and recover [20:39] before you hit FB [20:39] the same turn 01[20:39] true 01[20:39] the cryo still has to basically fish for a miss tho 01[20:39] since fb still kos before it runs out of pp [20:39] if its the latter scenario it generally beats out queen though 1[20:39] not in my experience :/ [20:40] since it would take 6 consecutive i think to KO [20:40] disregarding damage variation [20:40] anda gain, without getting KOd by ice beam itself 01[20:40] cryo only does like 50% with ice beam iirc 01[20:40] maybe like 60% [20:41] gotta be more than 50 lol 01[20:41] ok fine :p 01[20:41] 76%~ 01[20:42] nidoqueen still usually comes out on top though in my experience [20:42] at the very least cryo will have crippled queen before going down 01[20:42] troo [20:42] so saying the reflect cryo can handle pursuit+queen 01[20:42] but then nidoqueen still gets a very valuable kill [20:43] is not fallacious 01[20:43] reflect cryo beats pursuit+queen [20:43] thats where teambuilding comes into play though 01[20:43] and loses to a lot of other things cryo is good at beating [20:43] stall is built on redundancies ofc 01[20:43] please don't lecture me on teambuilding lol [20:43] wouldnt a lecture imply multiple statements .-. 01[20:44] troo 01[20:44] x) 01[20:44] i also believe 01[20:44] that nidoqueen is incredibly centralizing too 01[20:44] i mean, look at the current metagame [20:44] thats a reasonable argument but I dont think i agree with it for the following reasons 01[20:44] almost every competant team that i've seen 01[20:44] uses uxie 01[20:44] because the NEED that queen counter 01[20:45] for consistency [20:45] as we've seen, RU is consistently at around 60 mons, and the recent shifts only increased these 01[20:45] furthermore [20:45] and while queen is the #1 mon by a 5% margin 01[20:45] nidoqueen has made so many pokemon liabilities [20:45] the fact that the other stuff is much lower [20:45] demonstrates greater diversity 01[20:45] still 01[20:45] remember manectric? 01[20:45] bad because of queen [20:45] it used to be good 01[20:45] galvantula? [20:45] queen makes it bad 01[20:45] bad because of queen 01[20:45] steelix / tangrowth? [20:46] this is part of the cycle of tiering lol 01[20:46] bad because of queen and the offensive shift [20:46] also galvy isnt bad per se [20:46] giga does like 30 i think [20:46] hp ice like 45ish [20:46] and i think the offensive shift has more to do with it than queen does [20:46] queen was just part of the catalyst [20:46] int erms of uxie 01[20:46] a very big part of the catalyst imo [20:46] i think its just the best queen option [20:46] and this the most used [20:46] offensive teams for example [20:47] dont necessarily need the queen check 01[20:47] yes [20:47] but uxie provides other functions 01[20:47] but literally every other team archetype 01[20:47] needs queen [20:47] so the queen checking is a bonus 01[20:47] err 01[20:47] *uxie 01[20:47] and idk, all the balance teams that i've seen 01[20:47] are really just offense with [20:47] for balance either that or a combination of mons including slowking that can collectively resist its attacks, yes i agree 01[20:47] uxie / maybe another pivot [20:47] for stall, we've discussed that avenus already 01[20:48] mmhmm 1[20:48] except 01[20:48] honestly i haven't seen successful balance 01[20:48] that uses the latter part of your suggestion [20:48] the team i used vs windsong did i think [20:48] windsongs team too if i recall correctly [20:49] cant check atm tho :( 01[20:49] :( [20:49] ps being down and all [20:49] i usedd something along the lines of [20:49] drudd, slowking, kabu and a couple gorund immunities [20:49] hich made it hard for queen to predict [20:49] with drudd and king often being safe switch ins [20:50] because if queens tries to predict it can easily die 01[20:50] that team 01[20:50] is still fairly offensive in nature tho 01[20:50] all of your mons have offensive presence to threaten queen [20:50] it is, but the slower mons that were used [20:50] yes exactly [20:50] and thats something that balance has to keep in min di think 01[20:50] and that's not a good thing imo [20:51] not being fodder for one of the most dangerous mons int he tier 01[20:51] because that's not balance anymore 01[20:51] that's basically [20:51] if you dont otherwise have a counter 01[20:51] bulky offense lol [20:51] the thing is I could say the same for moltres in a different scenario [20:51] if i dont carry a hard counter [20:51] my slow mons have to be able to threaten tres 01[20:51] yes, and that's why 01[20:51] i do sorta feel that moltres may be banworthy in the future 01[20:51] :p [20:51] oh [20:52] well then i think we fundamentally disagree on bans then lol 01[20:52] but the thing about moltres 01[20:52] is that it is also significantly less consistent [20:52] yea i know, hazards and status 1[20:52] due to sr and inaccurate moves [20:52] either way i dont think queen is banworthy :p 01[20:52] that's fair enough 01[20:52] i do trust that you do understand why i feel it's banworthy tho :p [20:53] i do, i dont agree with your position but i do understand your position of beliefs 01[20:53] excellente [20:54] think it might be worth copying this log into the suspect thread? 01[20:54] perhaps~ 01[20:54] though to get this straight 01[20:54] you feel that bans 01[20:54] are for pokemon that are outright overpowering [20:54] i cant tho, cause im cut off after :26 01[20:54] if they shift the metagame significantly that is fine? 01[20:54] :( [20:55] thats a rather overarching statement to generalize i think 01[20:55] *and centralize 01[20:55] true 01[20:55] x) [20:55] i prefer to take things in context lol 01[20:55] well it'd be great to have a summary of your opinion on banning :p [20:55] like i suppose i could say yes cause cress did shift the meta but was also overpowering [20:55] i think that if we were to lay out a series of planes [20:56] like a political spectrum or w/e [20:56] i would be like 90% for pokemon that are overpowered int eh metagame [20:56] 10% for mons that shape the meta [20:56] for example, i didnt agree with the garchomp or excadrill bans from the meta they were banned in [20:56] nor torn-t [20:57] blaze i was ambivalent 01[20:57] hmmm 01[20:57] i c 01[20:57] well i believe 01[20:57] that mons that put a significant strain on a certain playstyle [20:58] im more towards the opinion of ban broken stuff then ban stuff for a more fun meta you could say 01[20:58] and shift the metagame to an incredible extent around them 01[20:58] are broken imo [20:58] i.e. snow cloak/sand veil ban was dumb 1[20:58] yeah i agree with tha tlol [20:59] well see when you get into defining it like that i dont think queen satisfies the second qualifier [20:59] strain on teambuilding definitely [20:59] shift the meta to an incredible extent? [20:59] i dont think so 01[20:59] nah 01[20:59] i really think it does centralize the metagame ridiculously tho 01[20:59] i mean, like i said 01[20:59] the rise of uxie, really sudden drop 01[20:59] in slow, bulky mons [20:59] uxie was always like #4 in usage lol 01[21:00] and rise of general ho smeargle offense 01[21:00] which were always good, but never so absurdly dominant 01[21:00] yeah, uxie was 01[21:00] but tbh i don't remember a lot of good players using it very much :s 01[21:00] + the usage stats have always been pretty suspect x) [21:00] smeargle idk if you can say ho is the only reason its used [21:01] you obviosuly know first hand [21:01] that it works for stall too :p [21:01] i.e. august 01[21:01] troo 01[21:01] x)