Jul 23 19:17:36 <miyako> I'd like to try to keep this to an hour; I feel like a lot of our meetings have gone on for too long
Jul 23 19:17:41 <TheDuceCat> yeah
Jul 23 19:17:48 <TheDuceCat> what are today's goals?
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Jul 23 19:17:53 <TheDuceCat> ^stats
Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> --- Channel statistics ---
Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Channel: #rpcdesktop
Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Users: ArrowBot, Bradford, CatBot, chancez, decatf, Filter_, LoGabr, miyako, Suner, tayne, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat
Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Opers: ArrowBot, miyako, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat
Jul 23 19:17:53 <CatBot> Voiced:
Jul 23 19:18:09 <tayne> oh shit thanks catbot
Jul 23 19:18:18 <TheDuceCat> lol
Jul 23 19:18:19 <miyako> I think the biggest issue we have right now is that we need to start getting code written.
Jul 23 19:18:23 <Suner> ^
Jul 23 19:18:28 <miyako> what stands in our way from starting that right now?
Jul 23 19:18:36 <Filter_> lack of direction
Jul 23 19:18:40 <Filter_> no clear goals written down
Jul 23 19:18:44 <Suner> ^
Jul 23 19:18:51 <miyako> I know I committed to starting to get some design documentation done
Jul 23 19:18:59 <Suner> we have a basic idea of the final product
Jul 23 19:19:06 <Suner> but no immediate goals
Jul 23 19:19:11 <thearrowflies> that woke me up
Jul 23 19:19:16 <miyako> and I apologize but I've just been too sick to work on that as of yet; it will probably be next weekend before I can really sit down and work on that
Jul 23 19:19:48 <miyako> wasn't someone going to work on a GUI prototype?
Jul 23 19:19:54 <TheDuceCat> arrow
Jul 23 19:20:07 <TheDuceCat> ^die
Jul 23 19:20:07 <thearrowflies> ?
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Jul 23 19:20:18 <TheDuceCat> were'nt you going to make mockups?
Jul 23 19:20:39 <thearrowflies> yeah >.>
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Jul 23 19:21:16 <thearrowflies> let me wake up and then ill switch over to osx and do it
Jul 23 19:21:18 <TheDuceCat> how is gtk+ compared to QT?
Jul 23 19:21:36 <TheDuceCat> it can keep the whole code base to C :)
Jul 23 19:21:43 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall
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Jul 23 19:21:56 <thearrowflies> wait what? i was going to do it in photoshgop
Jul 23 19:22:28 <TheDuceCat> no
Jul 23 19:22:30 <TheDuceCat> not for mockups
Jul 23 19:22:32 <miyako> TheDuceCat: I like GTK+, but a lot of people don't. I think the C++/Qt and C backend approach satisfies the most people who want to work on the project
Jul 23 19:22:34 <TheDuceCat> just for a framework
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Jul 23 19:22:41 <TheDuceCat> ok
Jul 23 19:22:49 <TheDuceCat> but...C ;(
Jul 23 19:22:57 <Suner> I'd just like to interject
Jul 23 19:22:58 <miyako> glib is pretty nice though, I suspect we might end up using it on the back end
Jul 23 19:23:04 <Suner> I don't like Qt
Jul 23 19:23:05 <Suner> :p
Jul 23 19:23:10 <thearrowflies> ok, let me open up creator
Jul 23 19:23:20 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall
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Jul 23 19:23:50 <miyako> Suner: I mis-spoke, I should have said that the C and C++/Qt combination we've settled on has the smallest standard deviation in the level of dissatisfaction
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Jul 23 19:24:34 <Suner> haha, yeah, probably
Jul 23 19:24:45 <TheDuceCat> let's write everything in assembly
Jul 23 19:24:56 <thearrowflies> ^
Jul 23 19:25:04 <miyako> 6802 assembly!
Jul 23 19:25:14 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall
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Jul 23 19:25:25 <thearrowflies> why is it quitting?
Jul 23 19:25:32 <timg> hi
Jul 23 19:25:38 <TheDuceCat> i'm debugging :)
Jul 23 19:25:42 <miyako> hey timg
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Jul 23 19:25:49 <TheDuceCat> ^pingall
Jul 23 19:25:49 <CatBot> Wake up! ArrowBot, Bradford, CatBot, chancez, decatf, Filter_, LoGabr, miyako, Suner, tayne, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat, timg
Jul 23 19:25:51 <timg> hey miya
Jul 23 19:25:51 <TheDuceCat> lol
Jul 23 19:25:53 <TheDuceCat> that will be fun
Jul 23 19:25:59 <tayne> ?
Jul 23 19:26:02 <timg> CatBot: that's stupidly annoying
Jul 23 19:26:07 <thearrowflies> no its not
Jul 23 19:26:09 <thearrowflies> it woke me up
Jul 23 19:26:11 <TheDuceCat> it's meeting time!
Jul 23 19:26:12 <timg> is so!
Jul 23 19:26:15 <timg> oh?
Jul 23 19:26:16 <miyako> So, I think last time the things we had floating up in the air were
Jul 23 19:26:16 <tayne> it's annoying as hell
Jul 23 19:26:17 <thearrowflies> my volume was really loud
Jul 23 19:26:17 <Suner> miyako: although iirc at the last meeting no one really voiced anything
Jul 23 19:26:18 <TheDuceCat> i'll brb :)
Jul 23 19:26:19 <timg> ok, let's meet!
Jul 23 19:26:25 * TheDuceCat is away: BRB
Jul 23 19:26:47 <miyako> file format information, how the tiles will be stored, who opens tile sets, how are they shared between the backend and frontend
Jul 23 19:27:40 <Suner> ah, I'm still not entirely sure of what the backend actually does
Jul 23 19:28:04 <miyako> Suner: for right now, not very much at all
Jul 23 19:28:40 <miyako> The long term vision of the backend is a library that you use to compose tiles, feed tiles and terrain information into it, and get back out a mesh or vector image with map data
Jul 23 19:28:50 <Suner> just a file reader/writer for now?
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Jul 23 19:29:27 <miyako> Suner: I'd like it to be slightly smarter than that, but probably not by much really
Jul 23 19:29:45 <Suner> I'm just talking about immediate goal
Jul 23 19:30:08 <Suner> as in, where we simply get a basic map to render with fix tiles
Jul 23 19:30:12 <miyako> Suner: yeah, I think for now the backend should actually read the tiles and give them to the front end
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Jul 23 19:32:00 <miyako> At a high level, the way I see the program flow with the front and back ends is:
Jul 23 19:33:08 <miyako> frontend starts -> initializes the backend library; user creates a new map -> frontend requests a new map -> backend returns a map_t data structure that is opaque
Jul 23 19:33:46 <miyako> front-end calls renderMap(map) and gets back a bitmap that it draws to the openGL context
Jul 23 19:34:14 <Suner> all right
Jul 23 19:34:38 <miyako> user selects a tile (more on this in a minute), front end calls addTile(map, tileID, tileX, tileY) then renderMap(map)
Jul 23 19:34:46 <miyako> and redraws the new sprite into the OpenGL context
Jul 23 19:35:13 <miyako> to select tiles, the user clicks "choose tile set" and selects a directory full of tiles
Jul 23 19:35:37 <miyako> the front end calls to the back end addTileLibrary(tileLibrary, path)
Jul 23 19:35:49 <miyako> tileLibrary is probably a map or something, I don't know for sure yet
Jul 23 19:36:11 <miyako> but it contains maybe a key if it's a map, and some tile_t types
Jul 23 19:36:26 <miyako> which are opaque pointers to the backends internal representation of a tile
Jul 23 19:37:12 <miyako> then the frontend calls something like: tileGetThumbnail(tileID) tileGetName(tileID) to get the name and a thumbnail image of the tile
Jul 23 19:37:37 <miyako> and tileGetSprite(tileID) to get a full sized sprite of the tile (perhaps to set as the cursor when the user is adding something to the map)
Jul 23 19:38:08 <miyako> that's the vague design ideas I have in my head right now, I'm open to other ideas
Jul 23 19:38:29 <TheDuceCat> sorry
Jul 23 19:38:31 <TheDuceCat> back
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Jul 23 19:39:28 <miyako> TheDuceCat: no problem, read my general design idea and see what you think
Jul 23 19:40:17 <TheDuceCat> looks good
Jul 23 19:42:05 <Suner> sounds like a good starting point
Jul 23 19:45:52 <thearrowflies> qt designer is a bit weird to work with
Jul 23 19:46:08 <TheDuceCat> why?
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Jul 23 19:46:56 <thearrowflies> it may just be me being a noob, but i cant figure out how to do alot of things
Jul 23 19:47:06 <TheDuceCat> like what?
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Jul 23 19:47:29 <thearrowflies> i cant figure out how to get rid of the bottom bar
Jul 23 19:47:36 <thearrowflies> or how to add things to the toolbar
Jul 23 19:47:42 <TheDuceCat> there's a bottom bar?
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Jul 23 19:47:54 <TheDuceCat> on the design software or the app itself?
Jul 23 19:48:19 <thearrowflies> you know how steam has that bar on the bottom of the window?
Jul 23 19:48:22 <thearrowflies> its like that
Jul 23 19:48:24 <thearrowflies> but not as thick
Jul 23 19:48:49 <TheDuceCat> on Qt Creator or the design you're making?
Jul 23 19:48:54 <thearrowflies> on the design
Jul 23 19:48:59 <thearrowflies> dunno how to get rid of it
Jul 23 19:49:09 <thearrowflies> and things snap into place, which is good but right now its annoying
Jul 23 19:49:35 <Bradford> hey im not sure wahts going on
Jul 23 19:49:41 <Bradford> for the desktop project right now
Jul 23 19:49:50 <TheDuceCat> i got it
Jul 23 19:50:08 <TheDuceCat> on the right side you get a object hierarchy correct?
Jul 23 19:50:20 <thearrowflies> yeah
Jul 23 19:50:27 <thearrowflies> i just removed status bar
Jul 23 19:50:46 <TheDuceCat> that work for you?
Jul 23 19:50:51 <thearrowflies> yeah
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Jul 23 19:53:23 <thearrowflies> this is just a basic design
Jul 23 19:53:24 <thearrowflies> # I accidentally posted the wrong picture here. Correct link http://i.imgur.com/oNGf7.png #
Jul 23 19:53:33 <thearrowflies> the white area would be the working area
Jul 23 19:53:38 <thearrowflies> the tools would be like that
Jul 23 19:53:39 <thearrowflies> but
Jul 23 19:53:40 <Suner> lolwut
Jul 23 19:53:44 <thearrowflies> have an option to popoup
Jul 23 19:54:08 <thearrowflies> the grey thing up top would be various tools not in the toolbox on right
Jul 23 19:54:32 <Suner> lol, I thought you were joking
Jul 23 19:54:35 <Suner> had a good laugh
Jul 23 19:54:41 <thearrowflies> >.>
Jul 23 19:54:44 <Suner> but I think you pasted the wrong link mate
Jul 23 19:54:53 <TheDuceCat> nice rig though
Jul 23 19:54:53 <thearrowflies> oh
Jul 23 19:54:56 <thearrowflies> >.>
Jul 23 19:54:57 <TheDuceCat> :)
Jul 23 19:55:03 <thearrowflies> dammit
Jul 23 19:55:06 <thearrowflies> forgot to copy it
Jul 23 19:55:07 <thearrowflies> http://i.imgur.com/oNGf7.png
Jul 23 19:55:08 <thearrowflies> yeah
Jul 23 19:55:09 <thearrowflies> thats it
Jul 23 19:55:41 <Suner> yeah that's good enough
Jul 23 19:55:46 <Suner> things are always subject to change
Jul 23 19:58:06 <Suner> do we just want to
Jul 23 19:58:34 <Suner> link filenames in the map file (to tiles), or actually include the tile data in the map file?
Jul 23 19:59:07 <miyako> I think the tile data should be included in the map file
Jul 23 19:59:29 <miyako> linking to the filename would be a good feature to possible add in the future though IMHO
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Jul 23 20:04:05 <miyako> the discussion seems to have started to lag; anyone have anything else they want to bring up for the meeting?
Jul 23 20:04:35 <Suner> can we at least get a project structure going?
Jul 23 20:04:41 <Suner> are we still using CMake?
Jul 23 20:04:47 <TheDuceCat> yeah
Jul 23 20:05:05 <LoGabr2> Can i get a trello invite
Jul 23 20:05:12 <Suner> can we decide on a unit testing framework?
Jul 23 20:05:31 <TheDuceCat> pm me your email
Jul 23 20:05:40 <thearrowflies> who is working on the QT part of it?
Jul 23 20:05:49 <TheDuceCat> i am
Jul 23 20:06:07 <TheDuceCat> LoGabr2: pm me your email
Jul 23 20:06:11 <thearrowflies> just us?
Jul 23 20:06:32 <TheDuceCat> everybody is gone
Jul 23 20:06:37 <thearrowflies> :<
Jul 23 20:06:50 <Suner> lol
Jul 23 20:06:57 <thearrowflies> do you want to start coding first or do you want me to?
Jul 23 20:07:07 <TheDuceCat> we have 26 in the trello
Jul 23 20:07:09 <Suner> if you guys need any help with it I'll probably pitch in
Jul 23 20:07:22 <TheDuceCat> let's see how the git is giong to be structured before we code
Jul 23 20:07:27 <miyako> I'm hoping to start getting code written on the backend this week
Jul 23 20:07:31 <thearrowflies> ok
Jul 23 20:07:35 <TheDuceCat> yeah there are no set 'teams' or anything
Jul 23 20:07:39 <TheDuceCat> you can go back and forth
Jul 23 20:08:04 <miyako> yeah, I do plan on trying to contribute to the GUI a little :)
Jul 23 20:08:37 <TheDuceCat> i wonder how many people are still interested
Jul 23 20:08:57 <Bradford> i am
Jul 23 20:09:04 <TheDuceCat> everyone in this chat is
Jul 23 20:09:21 <thearrowflies> except for the people not talking/afk
Jul 23 20:09:24 <miyako> I would guess there will be maybe 5 or 6 regular contributers, with maybe 3 or 4 additional people who work on significant features
Jul 23 20:09:35 <TheDuceCat> mmm
Jul 23 20:09:58 <miyako> I haven't seen Filter_ say much, but given the enthusiasm with which he worked on that gaussian blur code I expect to see him jumping into the code once it gets started, I could be wrong though
Jul 23 20:10:22 <Suner> http://ideone.com/n24Gn here's a quick mockup of a potential binary file format
Jul 23 20:10:24 <Suner> and yeah
Jul 23 20:10:24 <ArrowBot> Title: Ideone.com | Online C Compiler & Debugging Tool (at ideone.com)
Jul 23 20:10:29 <Suner> directory structure
Jul 23 20:10:37 <decatf> put me in the former category
Jul 23 20:11:10 <miyako> I'm actually pretty happy with the way things have gone, if we had the ~25 or so people that were here during the first meeting still collaborating, getting started would be a real cluster; I'll probably be better to gain some momentum and then grow the number of core contributers once we have a good direction
Jul 23 20:11:46 <chancez> wudup
Jul 23 20:12:18 <LoGabr2> I am very interested but i have very little low level language experience so i will probably watch for a bit before i try to contribute
Jul 23 20:12:33 <Bradford> ditto
Jul 23 20:14:24 <miyako> LoGabr2, Bradford well hopefully we can make it easy for you to start contributing :)
Jul 23 20:14:52 <Bradford> yea thanky you!!!!!
Jul 23 20:14:55 <Bradford> thank you*
Jul 23 20:15:19 <TheDuceCat> :)
Jul 23 20:16:25 <TheDuceCat> how are we going to structure this project?
Jul 23 20:16:45 <miyako> TheDuceCat: you mean like directory structuring?
Jul 23 20:16:50 <TheDuceCat> exactly
Jul 23 20:17:03 <TheDuceCat> src lib bin etc
Jul 23 20:18:24 <miyako> tieldr/{build, doc, lib, src, resources} tieldr/src/{gui, backend, plugin}
Jul 23 20:18:37 <miyako> ?
Jul 23 20:18:45 <TheDuceCat> good
Jul 23 20:18:45 <Suner> yeah
Jul 23 20:18:51 <TheDuceCat> maybe instead of resources -> res
Jul 23 20:18:56 <TheDuceCat> i like three letters :)
Jul 23 20:19:00 <Suner> no comments on my file proposal?
Jul 23 20:19:15 <miyako> Suner: re: linking files vs embedding?
Jul 23 20:19:15 <TheDuceCat> i don't know a lot about using binary data
Jul 23 20:19:16 <TheDuceCat> so
Jul 23 20:19:26 <TheDuceCat> http://ideone.com/n24Gn
Jul 23 20:19:29 <ArrowBot> Title: Ideone.com | Online C Compiler & Debugging Tool (at ideone.com)
Jul 23 20:21:26 <miyako> hmm
Jul 23 20:24:26 <thearrowflies> isnt that what he posted?
Jul 23 20:24:34 <TheDuceCat> IT'S MY CODE
Jul 23 20:24:39 <Suner> haha
Jul 23 20:24:48 <TheDuceCat> i don't know how it works but it's mine
Jul 23 20:24:59 <thearrowflies> ok
Jul 23 20:25:06 <TheDuceCat> should i do pingall again lol
Jul 23 20:25:08 <miyako> This is my code; there are many like it, but this one is mine...
Jul 23 20:25:23 <TheDuceCat> :|
Jul 23 20:25:44 <LoGabr2> Night gents
Jul 23 20:25:49 <thearrowflies> night
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Jul 23 20:26:03 <miyako> TheDuceCat: I see what you're going for there, I'm not sure that's the format I'd use personally
Jul 23 20:26:16 <miyako> I was thinking something like:
Jul 23 20:26:18 <TheDuceCat> that's not mine
Jul 23 20:26:19 <TheDuceCat> lol
Jul 23 20:26:20 <TheDuceCat> Suner wrote it
Jul 23 20:27:34 <thearrowflies> whats with the
Jul 23 20:27:35 <thearrowflies> 0x00, 0x54
Jul 23 20:27:43 <Suner> magic number
Jul 23 20:27:46 <thearrowflies> why cant you use the decimal representation
Jul 23 20:28:09 <Suner> errr, because hex was easier?
Jul 23 20:28:09 <Suner> lol
Jul 23 20:28:10 <thearrowflies> if there is one
Jul 23 20:28:14 <thearrowflies> it is?
Jul 23 20:28:34 <thearrowflies> 0x00 = 0, right?
Jul 23 20:28:41 <TheDuceCat> i don't know anything about reading/writing binary
Jul 23 20:28:43 <Suner> yeah
Jul 23 20:28:51 <miyako> <magic number><version><tile count>[<tile packet bytes><tile id><tile name byte><tile name><tile data bytes><tile data> ...]<map size x> <map size y>[row major tile data by tile id]
Jul 23 20:29:14 <miyako> do it sort of like huffman coding
Jul 23 20:29:45 <Suner> what's the point in tiles having names?
Jul 23 20:30:03 <miyako> *shrug* maybe it's unnecessary
Jul 23 20:30:11 <TheDuceCat> tile age
Jul 23 20:30:13 <TheDuceCat> tile wife
Jul 23 20:30:17 <TheDuceCat> tile children array
Jul 23 20:30:30 <Suner> and btw, I was just going for easiest format to implement that get's the job done
Jul 23 20:30:56 <TheDuceCat> how about you guys handle file format because i'm clueless on r/w binary
Jul 23 20:31:39 <miyako> TheDuceCat: yeah, I figure that the file format will be a feature someone implements after we have some of the other stuff done
Jul 23 20:31:58 <TheDuceCat> k
Jul 23 20:32:00 <miyako> we might just start out without the ability to save maps at all, and once we have an idea of how the code and our data structures look we might be able to make a better decision
Jul 23 20:32:32 <TheDuceCat> +1
Jul 23 20:32:57 <thearrowflies> boost has this cool thing that lets you output objects to file
Jul 23 20:32:59 <thearrowflies> just saying
Jul 23 20:33:08 <thearrowflies> and input them
Jul 23 20:33:17 <Suner> serialization?
Jul 23 20:33:20 <thearrowflies> ja
Jul 23 20:33:30 <Suner> welp, backend is in C not C++ :p
Jul 23 20:33:39 <thearrowflies> true
Jul 23 20:34:00 <Suner> and even then
Jul 23 20:34:04 <Suner> it has it's downsides
Jul 23 20:36:43 <TheDuceCat> well its been > an hour
Jul 23 20:36:52 <TheDuceCat> so are we going to wrap this up?
Jul 23 20:37:32 <miyako> TheDuceCat: sounds good to me
Jul 23 20:37:49 <miyako> TheDuceCat: mind taking the summary again today?
Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> miyako do you want to set up the folders?
Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> res
Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> src
Jul 23 20:37:53 <TheDuceCat> build
Jul 23 20:37:55 <TheDuceCat> doc
Jul 23 20:37:57 <TheDuceCat> yeah
Jul 23 20:38:08 <TheDuceCat> src/backend src/gui src/plugins