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  1. [MUSIC]
  2.  
  3. (Lew) Good morning,
  4. this is the Lew Rockwell Show.
  5.  
  6. and how great to have
  7. as our guest this morning
  8.  
  9. Sibel Edmonds.
  10.  
  11. Sibel is an extraordinary person, a very
  12. brave person, a very principled person.
  13.  
  14. Somebody who was horriffically oppressed
  15. by the US government.
  16.  
  17. She hasn't let that stop her.
  18.  
  19. Take a look at her website,
  20. Boiling Frogs Post.
  21.  
  22. She's the author of Classified Woman: The Sibel Edmonds Story,
  23.  
  24. where she tells... I'm gonna ask her
  25. to tell us a little bit
  26.  
  27. about what the government
  28. did to her previously,
  29.  
  30. but we're here to talk today
  31. especially about her new novel,
  32.  
  33. The Lone Gladio.
  34.  
  35. Now, who knew that Sibel
  36. was gonna be a thriller writer?
  37.  
  38. But it's quite wonderful,
  39. and it's an exciting novel.
  40.  
  41. It's a truth-telling novel.
  42.  
  43. It's what, in the old days, they would have called a roman à clef,
  44.  
  45. because in an increasingly
  46. authoritarian society,
  47.  
  48. all throughout history, people have had
  49. to use novels to tell the truth
  50.  
  51. when they couldn't actually do it
  52. in the guise of non-fiction.
  53.  
  54. But Sibel: tell us, first of all...
  55. -- and I know this is a very long topic --
  56.  
  57. ...but what did the government do to you?
  58. Why did they do it? Why didn't you buckle?
  59.  
  60. (Sibel) As you know,
  61. the ACLU classified me
  62.  
  63. as the most classified, gagged woman
  64. in the history of the United States.
  65.  
  66. Yes.
  67.  
  68. That's because I have received more
  69. number of gag orders
  70.  
  71. and the invocation of
  72. State Secrets Privilege repeatedly.
  73.  
  74. In fact, even the Congressional hearings
  75. and investigation of my case
  76.  
  77. were all stopped by the Justice Department
  78.  
  79. through retroactive
  80. classification invocation,
  81.  
  82. and the State Secrets Privilege
  83. invocation.
  84.  
  85. Iworked for less than a year for the FBI
  86. as a Language Specialist.
  87.  
  88. (Lew) You speak four languages.
  89.  
  90. You actually know foreign languages,
  91.  
  92. unlike the people who work
  93. in the FBI normally.
  94.  
  95. (Sibel) (laughs) Right. And because of that,
  96.  
  97. even though I was initially hired
  98. as a Language Specialist,
  99.  
  100. I ended up working with
  101. counterintelligence FBI agents
  102.  
  103. as an analyst, because they did not
  104. have any analysts...
  105.  
  106. -- the FBI, the entire organization --
  107. ...who knew the area.
  108.  
  109. And this is Central Asia/Caucasus
  110. and all the former Soviet countries.
  111.  
  112. The languages: Turkic language.
  113.  
  114. And Turkish is my primary language,
  115. but I also speak Azerbaijani.
  116.  
  117. So not only I did translation for them,
  118.  
  119. but I regularly helped them
  120. with the analysis
  121.  
  122. because you have to go through
  123. some newspaper articles in the country...
  124.  
  125. -- let's say it's in Azerbaijan,
  126. or it's in Turkey --
  127.  
  128. and see how that relates to our case.
  129.  
  130. Well, those articles would be in Turkish,
  131.  
  132. and the agents wanted to find out
  133. about some significance, relevance,
  134.  
  135. of the ongoing counterintelligence operation.
  136.  
  137. So during my work with the FBI,
  138. I got to and I became aware of
  139.  
  140. some really incredible
  141. operations and cases
  142.  
  143. that were ongoing from 1996
  144. all the way 'til February, 2002.
  145.  
  146. Therefore, after I blew the whistle,
  147.  
  148. the FBI and the Justice Department,
  149. and also the State Department,
  150.  
  151. they wanted to make sure
  152. that none of the information I learned...
  153.  
  154. -- and we are not talking about ongoing
  155. investigations that would be jeopardized,
  156.  
  157. or these special techniques
  158. for surveillance
  159.  
  160. that would be jeopardized
  161. if I were to talk --
  162.  
  163. ...but the content and the operations
  164. themselves would not become public.
  165.  
  166. And to prevent that, they basically...
  167.  
  168. -- this is the Justice Department,
  169. with a nudge and a push
  170.  
  171. from the State Department --
  172.  
  173. ...invoked the State Secrets Privilege
  174. in my case.
  175.  
  176. Then they invoked it again,
  177. the second time,
  178.  
  179. when I was asked to testify on a 9/11 case
  180. by the 9/11 family members.
  181.  
  182. At the time, they had a lawsuit
  183. through this legal firm,
  184.  
  185. and they wanted me to be
  186. one of their witnesses
  187.  
  188. and testify on certain cases and issues.
  189.  
  190. So the Justice Department
  191. stepped in again. And they said,
  192.  
  193. "No, she cannot testify. Everything
  194. about her is classified,
  195.  
  196. including her languages that she speaks,
  197. the degrees she has,
  198.  
  199. the country she was born,
  200. the date of birth."
  201.  
  202. They classified that. So I became
  203. the Classified Woman.
  204.  
  205. And then when I wrote my first book,
  206. after I finished it...
  207.  
  208. -- this is a biography, non-fiction --
  209.  
  210. because I held the highest-level secret
  211. clearance -- security clearance --
  212.  
  213. for the FBI, I was obligated
  214.  
  215. to submit my manuscript,
  216. before publication, to the FBI,
  217.  
  218. and have them go through
  219. the entire manuscript
  220.  
  221. to see if they see anything
  222. that they consider classified.
  223.  
  224. So with their black market,
  225. they would just cross out and say,
  226.  
  227. "Well, this cannot be included
  228. in your book."
  229.  
  230. Well, the process is supposed
  231. to be 30 days,
  232.  
  233. and they have to respond to you
  234. with the redacted stuff.
  235.  
  236. So you take it out, or you challenge it,
  237. then you publish.
  238.  
  239. Well, in my case,
  240. that did not happen, Lew.
  241.  
  242. We submitted it to the FBI.
  243.  
  244. A month passed. Two months passed;
  245. three months passed: nothing.
  246.  
  247. Finally, I had to go and hire attorneys.
  248.  
  249. The attorneys started contacting
  250. the FBI and the DOJ
  251.  
  252. and they were told
  253. that my entire book was classified.
  254.  
  255. (Lew gasps)
  256.  
  257. Therefore, they couldn't
  258. just black out anything.
  259.  
  260. - (Sibel) And this is the book you have read.
  261. - (Lew) Yes.
  262.  
  263. (Sibel) This is the book that
  264. has been available for three years.
  265.  
  266. (Lew) Great book, by the way:
  267. Classified Woman.
  268.  
  269. And it was Kafkaesque.
  270. We said, how could... they said,
  271.  
  272. "Even the page numbers: there is nothing
  273. in this book you can publish."
  274.  
  275. And we have, actually,
  276. official documents and letters from DOJ
  277.  
  278. saying everything about this,
  279. everything in this book, is classified.
  280.  
  281. At that point, I had to decide:
  282. do I back off and don't do it?
  283.  
  284. Or do I say, "This is ridiculous!"
  285. Let them arrest me and take me to court,
  286.  
  287. and show the court and, maybe, juries
  288. -- a team of juries --
  289.  
  290. how can an entire book be classified, OK?
  291.  
  292. This would be worse
  293. than Fahrenheit 451, right?
  294.  
  295. Well, I published it, and I wanted to see
  296. what was going to happen as a result.
  297.  
  298. And nothing happened.
  299. Because they truly, Constitutionally...
  300.  
  301. -- not that that ever
  302. stops them nowadays --
  303.  
  304. they were not really able to do anything.
  305.  
  306. But that was when the idea
  307. of writing a fiction was conceived,
  308.  
  309. because as I was going
  310. through this process,
  311.  
  312. fighting to publish this book,
  313.  
  314. I was told that if you write a fiction book,
  315.  
  316. you don't have to submit it to the FBI,
  317. or the Justice Department, or the CIA.
  318.  
  319. And I had that my Plan B, and saying,
  320. "Well, if they come and they say,
  321.  
  322. 'We're gonna take all these books off the market, and...' et cetera,
  323.  
  324. I would be forced to write fiction:
  325. because I had to write.
  326.  
  327. I had to write the story, or stories,
  328. related to this particular area.
  329.  
  330. So the idea was conceived at that point,
  331.  
  332. and in fact, as soon as
  333. my book was published
  334.  
  335. and a few months after that,
  336. when nothing happened,
  337.  
  338. I began writing this book, that will be
  339. available on a very important date,
  340.  
  341. and that is the September 11, 2014,
  342. the 13th anniversary of 9/11.
  343.  
  344. And it's more than symbolic for me.
  345.  
  346. People, when they read this book,
  347.  
  348. they realize the significance of it,
  349. of course. And so I wrote it.
  350.  
  351. And the idea at first, even to myself,
  352. sounded preposterous:
  353.  
  354. to sit down and write a novel.
  355.  
  356. I never considered myself an author.
  357.  
  358. I'd never thought I would sit down
  359. and write a novel,
  360.  
  361. but somehow I convinced myself
  362. and ended up doing it.
  363.  
  364. And court of public opinion
  365. would determine
  366.  
  367. if it was a worthwhile effort or not,
  368. of course; and that remains to be seen.
  369.  
  370. (Lew) Well, Sibel,
  371.  
  372. there's a lot extremely important
  373. information in this book.
  374.  
  375. Of course, it's fun to read it as a novel.
  376. It's a thriller, as I said.
  377.  
  378. It's worth it just on those grounds,
  379. but it's far more important than...
  380.  
  381. I don't want to put down the novel as a form, but I mean, this book is...
  382.  
  383. it's not just a novel: you're also,
  384. in this novel, telling the truth
  385.  
  386. about a whole bunch of criminal activities by
  387. the government
  388.  
  389. that have horrific effects; of the sort of thing
  390. that is still going on today,
  391.  
  392. and maybe multiplied today
  393. to gin up new wars
  394.  
  395. and new trouble all over the world.
  396.  
  397. Tell us something about the plot
  398. of the novel,
  399.  
  400. and the sort of things that you cover
  401.  
  402. that you can only cover
  403. in the guise of a novel.
  404.  
  405. (Sibel) Sure. The context for this novel,
  406. for the story,
  407.  
  408. is based on Operation Gladio.
  409.  
  410. Operation Gladio was an operation...
  411. -- paramilitary, false-flag operation --
  412.  
  413. ...methods put in place
  414. during the Cold War.
  415.  
  416. And this is by NATO and
  417. the United States intelligence agencies,
  418.  
  419. specifically the CIA,
  420. and, of course, Pentagon.
  421.  
  422. So they put together these
  423. paramilitary units in various countries,
  424.  
  425. in order to use
  426. false flag operations, mainly,
  427.  
  428. and other sorts of set-up,
  429. synthetic events
  430.  
  431. in order to sway the public opinion on
  432. the Soviet Union and Communism, et cetera.
  433.  
  434. Well, you would assume
  435. that such an operation...
  436.  
  437. I mean, it's already confirmed.
  438.  
  439. If people were to go
  440. and Google "Operation Gladio..."
  441.  
  442. (Lew) Sure! No, it's fact.
  443.  
  444. (Sibel) It's an established fact
  445. that we did engage...
  446.  
  447. -- and this is we, the United States,
  448. through NATO,
  449.  
  450. through our paramilitary and,
  451. in many cases, criminal networks
  452.  
  453. that we employed --
  454.  
  455. we set up a lot of false flag operations...
  456.  
  457. -- false flag bombings,
  458. terrors, et cetera --
  459.  
  460. ...in order to counter...
  461. -- I mean, that was the premise --
  462.  
  463. ...the Soviets' power and their influence
  464. in the important, critical region.
  465.  
  466. Well, you'd assume
  467. that this operation would end
  468.  
  469. after the Cold War ended.
  470.  
  471. However, this operation didn't end,
  472. but it was expanded and modified...
  473.  
  474. (Lew) Mm-hmm.
  475.  
  476. (Sibel) ...to fit the post-Soviet Union era.
  477.  
  478. Because you are looking...
  479. -- after 1990, 1991 --
  480.  
  481. ...you are looking at this area...
  482.  
  483. -- and this is Central Asia and Caucasus --
  484.  
  485. where the future of energy and resources
  486. are located, OK?
  487.  
  488. Because we know the Saudi Arabias and
  489. their oil has a limited timestamp on it.
  490.  
  491. It's not gonna be as relevant in 15 years
  492. from now, Saudi Arabia -- or even Iraq.
  493.  
  494. The future of energy and resources,
  495. and also the pipeline:
  496.  
  497. if you consider Pepe Escobar's phrase
  498. -- which I love -- "Pipelineistan,"
  499.  
  500. again, you're looking at
  501. this former Soviet Union state.
  502.  
  503. So here we were with the Cold War ended,
  504.  
  505. and we had us: the West,
  506. the United States;
  507.  
  508. you have China; and you have,
  509. to a certain degree, weakened Russia.
  510.  
  511. And saying, whoever gets
  512. the control of this region
  513.  
  514. is going to be the imperial power
  515. starting from this point on.
  516.  
  517. So, just as Middle East was
  518. for almost... more than half a century,
  519.  
  520. And Middle East: why do you think
  521. we put our bases in Saudi Arabia?
  522.  
  523. How did that come about?
  524.  
  525. Why did we install Shah in Iran?
  526.  
  527. All the things we did in Middle East...
  528.  
  529. -- installing puppet regimes,
  530. bringing about coups --
  531.  
  532. ...all those things that we did
  533.  
  534. was to control those nations
  535. that control the resources.
  536.  
  537. I mean, some of our listeners here
  538. may recall
  539.  
  540. the OPEC crisis
  541. in 1970s, for example.
  542.  
  543. I mean, what could happen
  544. if some of these countries get together
  545.  
  546. and defy the West, and say,
  547.  
  548. "If you do this, we are going
  549. to put an embargo,
  550.  
  551. or we're gonna make the price of oil
  552. such-and-such."
  553.  
  554. Well, people here almost went crazy.
  555.  
  556. They're like, "We don't care how you get
  557. our oil and gas to us,
  558.  
  559. but get it to us cheap,
  560. and we don't care what you do."
  561.  
  562. So, our government...
  563.  
  564. -- and this is also
  565. United Kingdom as well --
  566.  
  567. well, they focused on taking over
  568. these regimes,
  569.  
  570. setting one against another, to make sure
  571. things like that won't happen again.
  572.  
  573. I mean, we had that incident, and
  574. we haven't had that incident since.
  575.  
  576. It was all about energy and resources,
  577. and the power: Who was the power?
  578.  
  579. Who was the most powerful between
  580. the Soviet Union and the United States?
  581.  
  582. Now, with the fall of the Soviet Union,
  583.  
  584. after 1991, we had the same situation,
  585.  
  586. this time over the former
  587. Soviet Union states:
  588.  
  589. Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan,
  590.  
  591. and also the entire region,
  592. including Georgia.
  593.  
  594. Who was going to control this?
  595.  
  596. Well, we had the Chinese, you know,
  597.  
  598. with their billions of people
  599. and their dependence on energy;
  600.  
  601. we had the semi-weakened Russians;
  602. and we had us.
  603.  
  604. So between these three actors
  605. in the global chess game,
  606.  
  607. each one had to do his or her own,
  608. its own best,
  609.  
  610. to take over and have the dominance
  611. of this region.
  612.  
  613. With China, its modus operandi
  614. and business style,
  615.  
  616. what they usually do is,
  617. they do it via money.
  618.  
  619. They go and they cut a deal
  620. with a country.
  621.  
  622. They do it, currently, in Africa,
  623. as we know.
  624.  
  625. They do it in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.
  626.  
  627. They say, "OK, we put the railroad
  628. or the pipeline here,
  629.  
  630. and we want the exclusive right
  631. to this particular gas or oil development.
  632.  
  633. And here we're gonna give you $50 billion,
  634. et cetera, for the next five years."
  635.  
  636. But as we know, China doesn't go
  637. and install military bases for this.
  638.  
  639. How many military bases do you know
  640. that China has installed
  641.  
  642. in Middle East, or Africa, or Central Asia, or Caucasus, Lew? None!
  643.  
  644. (Lew) Yeah, of course now.
  645.  
  646. (Sibel) That's not their method, OK?
  647. They just do straight business.
  648.  
  649. Now, it may be shrewd business,
  650. but it's still business.
  651.  
  652. That, to me, is pretty kosher.
  653.  
  654. Then we had the Soviet Union.
  655.  
  656. Soviet Union said,
  657.  
  658. "Well, our comparative,
  659. relative advantage is,
  660.  
  661. for the last 50 years, we had these states' leaders,
  662.  
  663. because they were all part of the Communist Party,
  664.  
  665. and they were all elected or selected
  666.  
  667. by the Soviet Union,
  668. before the Cold War ended,
  669.  
  670. and they were put in power.
  671.  
  672. Plus, Russia had converted their language,
  673.  
  674. because the official language
  675. in those nations
  676.  
  677. for the last more-than-half a century
  678. was Russian:
  679.  
  680. their official government
  681. and school languages.
  682.  
  683. So, Russia relied on that, saying,
  684.  
  685. "We have cultivated this power -- political power -- there.
  686.  
  687. Therefore, we want to keep that."
  688.  
  689. Well, for the United States, as we know,
  690. we like to do military base installments,
  691.  
  692. and we like to do more cowboy-style.
  693. It was...
  694.  
  695. there are a few comparative advantages
  696. that we can use
  697.  
  698. as our advantage for this region...
  699. -- this is, again, Central Asia --
  700.  
  701. ...and that is: even though Russia
  702. turned their language
  703.  
  704. from the Turkic languages
  705. that they spoke previously to Russian,
  706.  
  707. a lot of this population in the area,
  708.  
  709. they still consider themselves
  710. as Turkic heritage, OK?
  711.  
  712. That's the same heritage
  713. as people in Turkey.
  714.  
  715. And even though religion was forbidden,
  716.  
  717. internally, they had kept
  718. some of that loyalty to Islam,
  719.  
  720. because the religion of the region...
  721. -- most of the region, not all of it --
  722.  
  723. ...is Islam. United States
  724. was in this position with NATO saying,
  725.  
  726. "How can we utilize the language
  727. that is on our side...
  728.  
  729. -- the Turkic language and
  730. the Turkic heritage, and Islam --
  731.  
  732. to sway them and get them
  733. further from Russia and on our side,
  734.  
  735. so that we can turn them into NATO
  736. members, put our military base there,
  737.  
  738. and also to dominate their energy:
  739. the rich energy resources sector.
  740.  
  741. Well, the plan that was conceived
  742. and put in place...
  743.  
  744. -- which was a continuation of Operation Gladio; original Operation Gladio --
  745.  
  746. ...was that we would use Islam
  747. and we would use language,
  748.  
  749. and we continued the previous
  750. Operation Gladio tactics
  751.  
  752. in order to sway these countries,
  753. bring them to our side,
  754.  
  755. put them in our camp, put our military bases, et cetera: which we started doing.
  756.  
  757. Starting in 1996,
  758.  
  759. with the help of the United States
  760. and under United States direction,
  761.  
  762. we helped open over 350 mosques
  763.  
  764. in Azerbaijan and other countries
  765. in the region.
  766.  
  767. We started putting together
  768. some of these NGOs
  769.  
  770. for the supposed development of education
  771. or human rights, or feminism:
  772.  
  773. whatever you want to call it.
  774.  
  775. And we started putting our operatives
  776.  
  777. on the ground, in place,
  778. in those countries.
  779.  
  780. And we also, with the help of Turkish paramilitary units under NATO,
  781.  
  782. we took over the Chechen factions,
  783. and said,
  784.  
  785. "We are going to supply them with arms
  786. and direct them and train them,
  787.  
  788. and create these terror incidents
  789. and separation from the Russian side
  790.  
  791. using our Chechen paramilitary units.
  792.  
  793. Further, we put in place
  794. some new religious...
  795.  
  796. -- you know, like al-Qaeda --
  797. ...supposed Islam-oriented...
  798.  
  799. or, people who utilize, misuse Islam
  800. for terrorism purposes.
  801.  
  802. And if you go alphabetically
  803. through the list,
  804.  
  805. you see a lot of those.
  806.  
  807. Well, all of those were, again,
  808. supplemented,
  809.  
  810. directed by the United States,
  811. NATO operatives,
  812.  
  813. and also foreign countries such as Turkey.
  814.  
  815. We actually put together some assassination
  816. attempts in the region.
  817.  
  818. Initially, for example,
  819. in Azerbaijan, Aliyev...
  820.  
  821. -- the father Aliyev,
  822. not the current President --
  823.  
  824. was still being pro-Russian.
  825.  
  826. And he initially refused to side with
  827. Turkey, and NATO, and the United States.
  828.  
  829. Some of these tactics,
  830. initially, didn't work.
  831.  
  832. What did we do? We took some of
  833. the mafia units from Turkey
  834.  
  835. and hooked Aliyev's son and Aliyev's
  836. brother in a major gambling scandal,
  837.  
  838. where they ended up owing something
  839. like $10 or $15 million,
  840.  
  841. and then we publicized that scandal, OK?
  842. To weaken Aliyev.
  843.  
  844. Not only that: there were two or three assassination attempts
  845.  
  846. that were carried out.
  847.  
  848. Again: and if you go and Google this,
  849.  
  850. you see that the culprits
  851. were some Turkish paramilitary units.
  852.  
  853. So, again: we put all sorts of pressures,
  854.  
  855. and finally -- by 1997, 1998 --
  856. we took over Azerbaijan.
  857.  
  858. As you know, Azerbaijan has been a
  859. candidate for a NATO member for years,
  860.  
  861. and they have been spending billions
  862. of dollars to fulfil the requirements
  863.  
  864. to become a full-fledged NATO member.
  865.  
  866. And of course, you know,
  867. we used to have Manas Airbase,
  868.  
  869. and also... what we put in place
  870. in Kyrgyzstan.
  871.  
  872. So, these were the operations,
  873. and a lot of things were involved in this,
  874.  
  875. from drug trafficking, money laundering, bribery, assassination attempts,
  876.  
  877. coup attempts, synthetic terror events
  878. in the tregion:
  879.  
  880. all of these were being conducted under
  881. NATO's Operation Gladio, the next phase:
  882.  
  883. the "next phase" being post-Cold War,
  884. post-fall of Soviet Union.
  885.  
  886. (Lew) And of course, it involves
  887. a lot of false flag stuff.
  888.  
  889. I mean, the original Gladio, I remember, had something to do
  890.  
  891. with some bombings of train stations
  892. in Italy, for example.
  893.  
  894. (Sibel) Absolutely.
  895.  
  896. (Lew) For various political reasons.
  897.  
  898. Isn't the false-flag terror operation just
  899. sort of bread-and-butter to these people?
  900.  
  901. (Sibel) Absolutely: because we have first-hand experience with this.
  902.  
  903. Look what 9/11 allowed [to] happen.
  904.  
  905. We had, if you remembe, PNAC:
  906. The Project for a New American Century,
  907.  
  908. in 1999-2000, we had the shadow
  909. government and the government powers
  910.  
  911. get together and say,
  912. "How do we establish our dominance?"
  913.  
  914. And people can go and look up PNAC.
  915. They put together this paper and said,
  916.  
  917. "Look at the fall of the Soviet Union:
  918. here we have this great opportunity
  919.  
  920. to become world power, OK?
  921. We want to be an empire.
  922.  
  923. However, in order to make this happen,
  924. we need the public's support in these...
  925.  
  926. especially in the United States,
  927.  
  928. but to a certain degree
  929. in other European countries.
  930.  
  931. Because you see,
  932. psychologically speaking,
  933.  
  934. after the fall of the Soviet Union,
  935. suddenly you had this missing motivation
  936.  
  937. for the government to expend for
  938. military-industrial complex expenditure,
  939.  
  940. buying, investing trillions of dollars
  941. in weapons.
  942.  
  943. Because, for almost half a century,
  944. those activities, those expenditures,
  945.  
  946. those operations were justified
  947. by the fearmongering
  948.  
  949. that "The Communists are out there:
  950. they are about to take over the world;
  951.  
  952. and if we don't do this,
  953. as the United States,
  954.  
  955. they're gonna come and take over!
  956.  
  957. We're gonna be invaded by the Russians.
  958. We're gonna be invaded, even, by Cubans.
  959.  
  960. So we have to stockpile all these weapons
  961. and nuclear weapons."
  962.  
  963. And people said, "OK."
  964. in the United States.
  965.  
  966. "They are so scary!
  967. Do what you must to protect us."
  968.  
  969. Well, you remove that threat in 1991:
  970.  
  971. you're looking at people,
  972. the psychology of people, saying:
  973.  
  974. "Whoo! That's great. Now that we don't
  975. have that big, bad, evil Soviet Union,
  976.  
  977. and the Cold War,
  978. and Communists to fight against,
  979.  
  980. let's concentrate about
  981. some of the internal stuff, you know?
  982.  
  983. Whether it's some of the things we are doing on education,
  984.  
  985. or, you know, all sorts of other things:
  986. because we don't have that threat.
  987.  
  988. Well, what would that mean for, let's say,
  989.  
  990. the big corporations,
  991. military-industrial complex?
  992.  
  993. Well, their bread and butter
  994. was the Cold War and the synthetic wars;
  995.  
  996. and now we are in the situation,
  997. for a brief period,
  998.  
  999. where we don't have that excuse
  1000.  
  1001. to go and stockpile all these weapons,
  1002. et cetera.
  1003.  
  1004. Well, that was not acceptable:
  1005.  
  1006. neither to the industry
  1007. -- the military-industrial complex --
  1008.  
  1009. nor for a government that wants
  1010. to be extremely big and powerful
  1011.  
  1012. and be a police state.
  1013.  
  1014. You know, how do you justify
  1015. all this stuff?
  1016.  
  1017. How do you even justify as big of a CIA?
  1018.  
  1019. CIA's existence, creation,
  1020. was justified based on the Cold War.
  1021.  
  1022. Now they have to protect that turf.
  1023.  
  1024. And these guys, when they wrote
  1025. this paper for PNAC,
  1026.  
  1027. that was exactly what they said:
  1028. they said,
  1029.  
  1030. "What we need to do is,
  1031.  
  1032. we need to get the Americans
  1033. and the other countries in Europe to say,
  1034.  
  1035. 'There is a threat, and it is deadly.
  1036. It's so dangerous; it's imminent.' OK?
  1037.  
  1038. And we need to... it doesn't exist!
  1039. We need to create this!
  1040.  
  1041. Short of a catastrophic event
  1042. to show people
  1043.  
  1044. that there is even a bigger monster
  1045. than the Soviet Union,
  1046.  
  1047. even worse than Communists,
  1048. some horrifying event has to take place.
  1049.  
  1050. Lo and behold, a year later,
  1051. we have 9/11 happening here.
  1052.  
  1053. The biggest terrorist event
  1054. on our soil, OK?
  1055.  
  1056. The one before that,
  1057. the only one we had was Pearl Harbor.
  1058.  
  1059. Well, 3,000 people lost their lives,
  1060.  
  1061. and it was all over the media
  1062. for months and months:
  1063.  
  1064. the horror of it
  1065.  
  1066. And it accomplished
  1067. everything PNAC wanted.
  1068.  
  1069. It accomplished a huge government:
  1070. we had set up, creating TSA,
  1071.  
  1072. Department of Homeland Security,
  1073. several other intelligence agencies;
  1074.  
  1075. we suspended our First Amendment rights;
  1076.  
  1077. we've basically suspended
  1078. the entire Constitution;
  1079.  
  1080. we justified... I mean, right how,
  1081.  
  1082. how do you think they are justifying
  1083. NSA's illegal surveillance?
  1084.  
  1085. There are these big, bad terrorists!
  1086.  
  1087. And we made that threat bigger
  1088. than even Communists, see?
  1089.  
  1090. Because with the Communists,
  1091. with the Soviet Union,
  1092.  
  1093. you could at least point to a country
  1094. or countries and say,
  1095.  
  1096. "Here's their power
  1097. in terms of military power;
  1098.  
  1099. here is their number;
  1100. here is where they are;
  1101.  
  1102. and say, "This is the enemy."
  1103.  
  1104. With this, we created
  1105. this invisible enemy,
  1106.  
  1107. that we could say,
  1108. "They are all over the world."
  1109.  
  1110. There may be hundreds of millions
  1111. of them; there may be three of them.
  1112.  
  1113. There is no way in this world
  1114. for us to have an incident
  1115.  
  1116. where we have the enemy eliminated.
  1117.  
  1118. With the Soviet Union, the Cold War ended:
  1119. Boom! It went away.
  1120.  
  1121. And it was a huge panic moment for
  1122. the military-industrial complex
  1123.  
  1124. and the big government.
  1125.  
  1126. "Now, why can't we create an enemy
  1127. that could never, ever be eliminated?"
  1128.  
  1129. Because how could you point out and say,
  1130.  
  1131. "Today, we eliminated the last mmeber
  1132. of al-Qaeda, Lew.
  1133.  
  1134. So the War on Terror officially ends today
  1135.  
  1136. because we have eliminated
  1137. al-Qaeda completely.
  1138.  
  1139. There are no al-Qaeda fetuses
  1140. in anybody's womb, OK?
  1141.  
  1142. We even eliminated those.
  1143. Thus, as of today, everybody celebrate!
  1144.  
  1145. We're gonna eliminate
  1146. Department of Homeland Security,
  1147.  
  1148. we're gonna end the surveillance,
  1149.  
  1150. because we have elliminated
  1151. the terrorism and al-Qaeda."
  1152.  
  1153. That will never happen, right Lew?
  1154.  
  1155. Because we have this perpetual enemy
  1156. and situation that we have created.
  1157.  
  1158. It's invisible. It doesn't have
  1159. a particular location or country.
  1160.  
  1161. They are supposedly all over the world,
  1162.  
  1163. and we don't even have anything to,
  1164. really, measure their strength.
  1165.  
  1166. The government says they can blow us up,
  1167. and we don't know if it's true or not.
  1168.  
  1169. You know, how could you prove something
  1170. that doesn't exist?
  1171.  
  1172. How do you prove that it doesn't exist:
  1173. -- and it doesn't exist! (laughs)
  1174.  
  1175. So this was, again, consistent
  1176.  
  1177. with the Operation Gladio Stage B,
  1178. after the Soviet Union.
  1179.  
  1180. And, as you said, before that,
  1181.  
  1182. a lot of things had to take place
  1183. in the United States,
  1184.  
  1185. and continue to take place here,
  1186.  
  1187. and to a very small degree,
  1188. maybe, in Europe:
  1189.  
  1190. you know, we had some incidents
  1191. in the United Kingdom, too.
  1192.  
  1193. And if you look at these powers,
  1194.  
  1195. the actors involved in Operation Gladio
  1196. post-Soviet Union,
  1197.  
  1198. basically you're just gonna see
  1199. the United States, the United Kingdom...
  1200.  
  1201. --and that is both Pentagon
  1202. and the United Kingdom --
  1203.  
  1204. and you have NATO.
  1205.  
  1206. And they, so far, have been milking
  1207. the threat of an invisible enemy
  1208.  
  1209. that cannot be estimated in terms of
  1210. power, location, or numbers.
  1211.  
  1212. And there were a lot of things:
  1213.  
  1214. every single war we have had since 9/11
  1215. has been justified based on 9/11.
  1216.  
  1217. Everything has to do with
  1218. the Islamic terrorism and al-Qaeda.
  1219.  
  1220. And, again: they are invisible.
  1221.  
  1222. I always ask people, I say...
  1223. if you read in the newspaper, they say:
  1224.  
  1225. "The United States, with a drone,
  1226. killed 20 al-Qaeda members in Yemen."
  1227.  
  1228. Nobody asks, "How was it established
  1229. that they were al-Qaeda members?"
  1230.  
  1231. Because does anyone go, after the fact:
  1232. look at the bodies, turn over the corpses,
  1233.  
  1234. take out their IDs:
  1235.  
  1236. "There it is. There's an ID here.
  1237. It says I'm an al-Qaeda member.
  1238.  
  1239. Here is my photo, and here is
  1240. my al-Qaeda number." (laughs)
  1241.  
  1242. Well, how do you identify someone
  1243. as al-Qaeda member,
  1244.  
  1245. with a drone, to go and kill?
  1246.  
  1247. How do you identify
  1248. that you have killed the right people,
  1249.  
  1250. and report with such confidence?
  1251.  
  1252. And that's our -- of course --
  1253. mainstream media.
  1254.  
  1255. And as you know, in this book,
  1256.  
  1257. there are sections that talk about
  1258. the US mainstream media, especially,
  1259.  
  1260. and how they operate.
  1261.  
  1262. (Lew) Sibel, if people have not
  1263. heard you before
  1264.  
  1265. or have not read you before,
  1266. and are listening today,
  1267.  
  1268. they get just a taste of
  1269. just how much you know,
  1270.  
  1271. how wise you are, how courageous you are.
  1272.  
  1273. And all of us who are concerned about
  1274. our diminishing freedoms,
  1275.  
  1276. concerned about the warfare state,
  1277.  
  1278. and the surveillance state,
  1279. and the police state,
  1280.  
  1281. and all the rest of the horrors
  1282. in Washington, DC:
  1283.  
  1284. we all owe you a debt of gratitude.
  1285.  
  1286. And I want to, of course,
  1287. highly recommend your first book:
  1288.  
  1289. Classified Woman: The Sibel Edmonds Story.
  1290. Tremendous autobiography.
  1291.  
  1292. But especially, everybody: get a copy
  1293. of The Lone Gladio. Read it.
  1294.  
  1295. First of all, it's very, very interesting
  1296. just as a novel,
  1297.  
  1298. but it tells the truth
  1299. about all the horrors
  1300.  
  1301. that are going on under the table
  1302. thanks to the government and its allies
  1303.  
  1304. in the crony-capitalist
  1305. military-industrial complex,
  1306.  
  1307. the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSA: all the
  1308. various so-called intelligence agencies.
  1309.  
  1310. Their object is global domination.
  1311.  
  1312. I mean, they actually intend to run
  1313. every single part of the world,
  1314.  
  1315. and we're just the cash cows for them,
  1316. and we're to be crushed if we say "Boo."
  1317.  
  1318. That's what they'd like.
  1319.  
  1320. So Sibel Edmonds is the kind of person
  1321. who refuses to be crushed,
  1322.  
  1323. won't be intimidated, tells the truth,
  1324.  
  1325. alerts Americans who have the brains
  1326. to listen to her
  1327.  
  1328. about the things that are going on.
  1329.  
  1330. So, get a copy of The Lone Gladio;
  1331. get a copy of Classified Woman.
  1332.  
  1333. Sibel, thanks so much
  1334. for everything you're doing.
  1335.  
  1336. Thanks for coming on the show today,
  1337. and all I can tell you is just keep it up.
  1338.  
  1339. (Sibel) Thank you for having me back;
  1340. and let me congratulate you
  1341.  
  1342. for a great job you've been doing
  1343. at the Lew Rockwell site,
  1344.  
  1345. because I visit it every day,
  1346. and we always include your articles...
  1347.  
  1348. -- and there are so many of them
  1349.  
  1350. that are on the exact same issues
  1351. that we just discussed --
  1352.  
  1353. in our news round-ups,
  1354. which we do several times a week.
  1355.  
  1356. Becuase they all address
  1357. the whole issue of the imperialism,
  1358.  
  1359. and also the issue of the police state,
  1360. the national security state,
  1361.  
  1362. and a big government that is there
  1363. not for the interests of the people.
  1364.  
  1365. So thank you very much for all you do, and
  1366. thank you for having me on again, Lew.
  1367.  
  1368. (Lew) Thank you, Sibel. Bye-bye.
  1369.  
  1370. (Sibel) Have a good day. Bye-bye.
  1371.  
  1372. [MUSIC]
  1373.  
  1374. (Lew) Well, thanks so much for listening to The Lew Rockwell Show today.
  1375.  
  1376. Take a look at all the podcasts:
  1377. there've been hundreds of them.
  1378.  
  1379. There's a link on the LRC front page.
  1380. Thank you.
  1381.  
  1382. [Subtitled by "Adjuvant"]
  1383. [CC-BY 4.0]
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