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#modtalk irc.snoonet.com - doxgate/creepgate/dramagate

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  1. #modtalk irc.snoonet.com
  2. <@spladug> everyone, we're in a meeting right now trying to discuss this issue. we understand where you're coming from, but please don't mistake our silence -- we're trying to make sure we present a consistent and logical front.
  3. <@spladug> repeatedly pinging us with obnoxious messages is not in any way helpful.
  4. <redtaboo> spladug~ thank you for saying something
  5. <GuitarFreak> thank you spladug. looking forward to the outcome of this mess
  6. <Triggs> Thanks spladug
  7. <redtaboo> to be fair to those that were complete and utter silence in the faace of PI being left up isn't helpfuleither
  8. <@spladug> you know that frequently we operate somewhat clandestinely during large shitstorms.
  9. <@spladug> for better or worse
  10. <sodypop> I think it's for the worse if nobody is going to at a very minimum remove personal information
  11. <@spladug> but that is not the case.
  12. <@spladug> will clarify momentarily.
  13. <sodypop> I can't see how the predditor tumblr isn't personal information, but i'll wait to hear the arguments presented.
  14. <solidwhetstone> this is the biggest shitstorm in recent memory
  15. <solidwhetstone> well since /r/jailbait really
  16. <solidwhetstone> only that situation was more cut and dry. now we have off-site stuff going
  17. <MillenniumFalc0n> I think this is a bigger shitstorm, at least among the mods
  18. <ManWithoutModem> Didn't that happen almost exactly a year ago?
  19. *** tisiwhoshotjr has joined #modtalk
  20. <solidwhetstone> sept 30 2011
  21. <solidwhetstone> just a week and a half over a year
  22. <Triggs> I think this is bigger too MillenniumFalc0n~ because it includes doxxing
  23. <Triggs> jailbait was just drama cause of the content
  24. <solidwhetstone> right
  25. <solidwhetstone> and you have many players
  26. <MillenniumFalc0n> Triggs: I think there's a lot more people upset with the admins over this than banning jailbait
  27. <solidwhetstone> you have the creepshots guys, you have jezebel, you have srs, you have gawker
  28. <redtaboo> I'm not upset with the admins, so much as I am confused.
  29. <@chromakode> hey
  30. <@kemitche> solidwhetstone: You are correct. Off-site, particularly with journalism/pseudo-journalism (with or without "integrity") is a much less clear line.
  31. <solidwhetstone> hey chromakode
  32. <@chromakode> I just wanted to say that we've been working pretty much nonstop since yesterday sorting through all this
  33. <MillenniumFalc0n> redtaboo: I just disagree
  34. <MillenniumFalc0n> upset might have been the wrong term
  35. <solidwhetstone> lay it on us
  36. <MillenniumFalc0n> chromakode: we appreciate it. It's just hard, being in the dark
  37. <@chromakode> I understand
  38. <MillenniumFalc0n> but we also know you run a business, and probably can't reveal too much of the internal discussion
  39. <redtaboo> chromakode~ we do realize that, I promise. that predditors tumblr though, we feel should be taken care of. and yeah.. left in the dark is hard
  40. <@spladug> for clarification, predditors.tumblr.com has been banned sitewide since the first second we became aware of it.
  41. <@chromakode> we're still the same folks who worked day and night for you in the past. we haven't changed
  42. <GuitarFreak> awesome
  43. <@spladug> obviously, we can't remove it from tumblr, but we don't allow it linked on reddit.
  44. <MillenniumFalc0n> Great to hear!
  45. <redtaboo> ok, spladug the jezebel article links to it though
  46. <@spladug> that's not exactly something we can fix, redtaboo
  47. <redtaboo> you can remove that article
  48. <MillenniumFalc0n> ...couldn't you ban that specific jezebelle article?
  49. <solidwhetstone> is reddit going to be making a public statement any time soon?
  50. <@kemitche> would we then have to remove articles that link to the jezebel article?
  51. <sodypop> The Jezebel article also contains personal information other than the predditors site, right?
  52. <solidwhetstone> either to the members or the public?
  53. <@kemitche> and articles that link that articles that link to jezebel?
  54. <GuitarFreak> why not just ban the whole site?
  55. <ZeroShift> sodypop: Yes
  56. <MobileFalc0n> As they are found, yes
  57. <MobileFalc0n> You should require srs to remove the article when it is reported at least
  58. <@spladug> deleting things that link to bad links is not sustainable. what if it were in a wikipedia article, should we ban that whole domain?
  59. <redtaboo> ok, do you see where this gets us though? this puts us in the position of wondering what happens when it's one of us
  60. <MobileFalc0n> I think you should require mods to remove links on a case by case basis. For instance, with the jezebelle article which clear links to pi
  61. <MobileFalc0n> Most mods are removing it anyways, but you should step in with the few who dont
  62. <MobileFalc0n> This is an example of malicious doxxing, designed to incite a witch hunt
  63. <@chromakode> redtaboo, we understand. what can we do to help in such a case?
  64. <redtaboo> enforce the removing of all PI
  65. <ManWithoutModem> start by banning /r/srs and PI
  66. <@spladug> redtaboo: we can't control things that aren't on reddit. they could just as easily dox any of us admins too. fundamentally, they will have to face the consequences of their own actions and we can't control that.
  67. <solidwhetstone> agreed. ban /r/srs
  68. <solidwhetstone> it threatens reddit
  69. <ZeroShift> Second
  70. <ManWithoutModem> third
  71. <GuitarFreak> third
  72. <redtaboo> spladug~ your identity is known, and you get paid for your job
  73. <redtaboo> we don't
  74. <solidwhetstone> banning srs would send a message. they go unchecked right now.
  75. <redtaboo> unless and until I get paid, I need assuarnces that the admins have my back
  76. *** MillenniumFalc0n has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  77. <@spladug> i understand redtaboo, but i don't understand how we're supposed to prevent people we have no control over from doing shitty stuff.
  78. <ManWithoutModem> @admins-read my post on why srs needs to die: (Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/modtalk/comments/119fvw/am_i_the_only_one_who_thinks_this_is_an_affront/c6kra2j?context=3)http://www.reddit.com/r/modtalk/comments/119fvw/am_i_the_only_one_who_thinks_this_is_an_affront/c6kra2j?context=3
  79. <@spladug> fox news could do this, nbc could do this, etc.
  80. <sodypop> There's merit in banning SRS from the same viewpoint as how jailbait was banned. JB refused to remove CP and SRS refuses to remove personal information.
  81. <redtaboo> spladug~ at least that is journalism (kinda) the tumblr isn't
  82. <ManWithoutModem> you could ban the subreddits that these people find homes in
  83. <ManWithoutModem> ban the users
  84. <ManWithoutModem> things like that
  85. <ManWithoutModem> *cough* srs
  86. <solidwhetstone> srs is the haven the doxxers go to. it makes sense to ban it
  87. <@spladug> sodypop: please report specific cases of personal information being upheld in SRS and we will deal with it.
  88. <@spladug> (modmail)
  89. <@kemitche> We don't ever want it to be one of you. But there's a limit to our power, and that limit is "stuff that's on reddit." We can't stop twitter or tumblr or anyone else from linking to jezebel. Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't protect you from having it happen to you
  90. <@spladug> thank you kemitche for saying it much better than i was.
  91. <redtaboo> spladug~ the tumblr could very well not have correct information. And, while, we have no idea inf PIMA's post about the assault is true, and I don't trust him, we all know that's a real possiblity with this
  92. <solidwhetstone> @admins- is banning srs an option? you seem to not be addressing that option
  93. <@chromakode> I agree with you redtaboo
  94. <@spladug> redtaboo: i completely agree with you too. that's a shitty as hell situation. but as kemitche said, that tumblr could be linked on twitter or facebook and there's jack shit we can do about it.
  95. <redtaboo> thanks, chromakode . I really do get you guys are in a hard position here
  96. <@spladug> blocking it on reddit won't help and isn't sustainable
  97. <ZeroShift> (Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/119q8v/project_panda_jezebel_runs_another_story_on/)http://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/119q8v/project_panda_jezebel_runs_another_story_on/ <== The jezebel article contains dox, and an SRS mod outright stated they would not remove it
  98. <ManWithoutModem> Why has /r/srs not been banned when they have specifically stated that their goal is to take down reddit?
  99. <sodypop> spladug, every link from the jezebel article contains personal information other than the predditor link.
  100. <ManWithoutModem> >Our prime directive is that we will not intervene unless something attacks the structural integrity of the greater reddit community.
  101. <ManWithoutModem> ^lol
  102. <sodypop> (Link: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/181hhoenjw7pppng/original.png)http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/181hhoenjw7pppng/original.png
  103. <sodypop> that image is on the article
  104. <ZeroShift> And SRS refuses to remove their link to it
  105. <solidwhetstone> @admins- is banning srs an option? you seem to not be addressing that option
  106. <MobileFalc0n> In irc an AA said they would not condemn nor remove the dox
  107. <ManWithoutModem> @admins- is banning srs an option?  you seem to not be addressing that option
  108. <ZeroShift> Yet it's against the tos to do so
  109. <MobileFalc0n> Solidwhetstone: even if it is, I feel like it's not something they're going to discuss in an irc channel
  110. <solidwhetstone> @mobilefalc0n i don't care if they give me some bullshit political answer- even a nice 'we're considering all options' would be nice
  111. <ZeroShift> ^
  112. <@chromakode> of course we're considering all options, silly :P
  113. <ZeroShift> I'm all for policital banter
  114. <ManWithoutModem> So admins, would you say that SRS has not attacked the structural integrity of the greater reddit community?
  115. <@chromakode> the reason we're not discussing SRS is because you are completely derailing this discussion with it.
  116. <@chromakode> we are trying to address your very real concerns about being doxed and your PI on reddit
  117. <@chromakode> they are separate issues
  118. <solidwhetstone> i think we are unified in feeling like SRS is threatening the structural integrity
  119. <@cupcake1713> +1
  120. <@cupcake1713> (to chromakode)
  121. <redtaboo> spladug~ thank you, I get that. But we (and all mods) are wiling to watch for that stuff too. THat's what we do, we help with that.
  122. <redtaboo> yes, cupcake1713 +1 to chromakode  there
  123. <ManWithoutModem> They aren't separate issues when SRS are the people doing the doxxing. :P
  124. <@cupcake1713> they are separate issues, ManWithoutModem
  125. <redtaboo> I agree everyone, let's keep this about the PI for now, please
  126. <@spladug> redtaboo: but reddit is not jezebel's only traffic source. the content will still be up. if you're against them doxxing, tell THEM.
  127. <redtaboo> spladug~ I have
  128. <@spladug> perfect
  129. <redtaboo> also, I think our stand to block gawker traffic sends a clear message
  130. <@cupcake1713> yeah, i guess a good thing to say here is this: for any content not hosted on reddit, contact those publications DIRECTLY
  131. <redtaboo> cupcake1713~ ManWithoutModem got the tumblr link temporily removed
  132. <@kemitche> redtaboo: From a personal standpoint, I have nothing against a subreddit deciding that certain domains are not allowed
  133. <ManWithoutModem> So people hosting jailbait are allowed to post links to reddit with no repreccusions?
  134. <@spladug> i'm with kemitche on that
  135. <redtaboo> kemitche~ thanks, a lot of subreddits are doing it
  136. <redtaboo> I think there would be a great message if the admins followed suit
  137. <@spladug> you sure it wouldn't streisand the whole thing?
  138. <@chromakode> isn't that giving gawker what it wants? attention?
  139. <MobileFalc0n> Just so we're clear, posting dox is now acceptable as long as it's an off site link?
  140. <solidwhetstone> the thing is already streisanded: (Link: http://news.yahoo.com/redditors-stand-gawker-protect-child-pornography-145854455.html)http://news.yahoo.com/redditors-stand-gawker-protect-child-pornography-145854455.html
  141. <redtaboo> to gawker and other media that wish to irresponsibly post that information
  142. <@spladug> MobileFalc0n: no, you're oversimplifying. as previously stated, the tumblr was banned from the moment it was first seen.
  143. <ZeroShift> Let's not go putting words in people's mouths
  144. <ManWithoutModem> Yeah, I was planning on doxxing Paradox on my blog and posting it to reddit.  I was just wondering if that was alright.
  145. <redtaboo> It would, temporarily, but in the long run it WOULD hurt their traffic
  146. <MobileFalc0n> So as long as it's a link nested within another link?
  147. <@spladug> MobileFalc0n: is it really that hard to understand that nothing is black and white and there needs to be some case-by-case review?
  148. <MobileFalc0n> If I link to my blog, which links to Laurelai ED article, I'm not doxxing Laurelai?
  149. <redtaboo> and other media would know that reddit doesn't stand for this
  150. <ManWithoutModem> do you mind if I upload jailbait to my blog and post the links to reddit as well?
  151. <GodOfAtheism> i keep seeing people blaming srs for the doxxing, but i haven't seen any evidence that they're actually responsibel
  152. <MobileFalc0n> Spladug: sorry
  153. <MobileFalc0n> Just frustrated
  154. <redtaboo> GodOfAtheism~ we're not talking abut srs right now
  155. <MobileFalc0n> I'll quit derailing now
  156. <redtaboo> please don't muddy the conversation
  157. <@kemitche> Links-to-links have to be much more case-by-case.
  158. <@kemitche> If your blog uploads JB, you'll likely have repercussions beyond just reddit.
  159. <ManWithoutModem> But what if it is legal?
  160. <ManWithoutModem> And I'm just hosting it off site.
  161. <@kemitche> The internet is a series of links
  162. <ManWithoutModem> Reddit wouldn't really seem to have a problem with that.
  163. <@cupcake1713> i think i'm having a hard time following your logic, ManWithoutModem... if you're posting something legal then why would we have a problem?
  164. <ManWithoutModem> lol
  165. <solidwhetstone> @kemitche no it's a series of tubes ;)
  166. <@kemitche> and those links form quite a big web
  167. <ManWithoutModem> So I have the OK from the admins to post jailbait from my blog?
  168. <ManWithoutModem> To reddit
  169. <solidwhetstone> don't forget creep shots
  170. <redtaboo> ManWithoutModem~ c'mon
  171. <@kemitche> so no, we're not going to flat-out ban all things that have a link chain that eventually touches something rule-breaking
  172. <@cupcake1713> guys, seriously
  173. <redtaboo> we need to try to havea real coonversation here
  174. <redtaboo> regardless of my typing skills
  175. <sodypop> The jezebel article contains personal information directly in it.
  176. <ZeroShift> correct
  177. <@kemitche> sodypop: Many actual news articles contain full names
  178. <sodypop> "including a Redditor she has identified as Jeremy Wayne Lohr,"
  179. <solidwhetstone> so i think we need to define doxxing
  180. <ZeroShift> It has a redditor's username, real name and picture
  181. <solidwhetstone> because i'm starting to see that maybe the admins and mods have different definitions
  182. <ManWithoutModem> Do they contain home addresses, phone numbers, etc?
  183. <redtaboo> many news organiztions use real sources, not a tumblr blog
  184. <MobileFalc0n> Directly connected to Reddit accounts kemitche?
  185. <solidwhetstone> @kemitche does reddit consider doxxing legit if it's off site?
  186. <solidwhetstone> or is doxxing only acknowledged when it's on site?
  187. <MobileFalc0n> The jezebelle article definitely violates reddit.com/rules
  188. <ManWithoutModem> *crickets*
  189. <sodypop> That user is no celebrity or public figure.
  190. <@kemitche> If you're going to twist every thing I say, then yes, you'll get crickets.
  191. <solidwhetstone> @kemitche- did i twist anything?
  192. <solidwhetstone> i can rephrase my question
  193. <@chromakode> a few people have to leave for lunch
  194. <@kemitche> You're all approaching it from "We don't like this jezebel article and how can I apply the prior admin statements/rules to get it removed"
  195. <sodypop> I feel at this point our conversation is not beingvery constructive.
  196. <redtaboo> solidwhetstone~ yeah, kinda... it seems like some of us are trying to trap the admins into saying something instead of listening to them
  197. <@chromakode> sodypop, agreed.
  198. <redtaboo> sodypop~ agree
  199. <@chromakode> we're trying to listen to you, too.
  200. <solidwhetstone> i'm not trying to trap...i hope it hasn't seemed like i was
  201. <@chromakode> this is complicated *because* it's a nuanced issue
  202. <@kemitche> Whereas we have to try to approach it from "What are the general guidelines we can apply or modify to foster the desired community behavior"
  203. <@kemitche> So it's very frustrating on our side to have any generalized guidelines we make get thrown back in our face
  204. <@chromakode> and without a doubt, we are on your side.
  205. <sodypop> The problem I have is that if linking a redditor's real name and picture to their account is allowed, then I don't feel protected with a reasonable amount of anonymity.
  206. <sodypop> I've always viewed anonymity as one of the core values of reddit.
  207. <@chromakode> I do too
  208. <ManWithoutModem> So when I go to (Link: http://reddit.com/rules)http://reddit.com/rules and see that rule #3 is "Don't post personal information," yet I see personal information that the admins have left up, I along with many others, get worried.
  209. <Rswany> is r/defaultmods private?
  210. <redtaboo> yes
  211. <Rswany> because karmanauts post their was leaked
  212. <Rswany> (Link: http://i46.tinypic.com/291z79l.jpg)http://i46.tinypic.com/291z79l.jpg
  213. <redtaboo> of course it was
  214. <Rswany> and whoever did used tinypic
  215. <Rswany> eww
  216. <solidwhetstone> lol
  217. <solidwhetstone> @chromakode- i'm not trying to trap or anything- i just want to get clarification on only one question
  218. <@chromakode> yes?
  219. <solidwhetstone> does reddit recognize off-site doxxing as doxxing? or does reddit only recognize on-site doxxing?
  220. <ManWithoutModem> ^
  221. <@chromakode> I don't think that question makes sense
  222. <@chromakode> can you please be more specific?
  223. <solidwhetstone> ok let me rephrase it
  224. <@kemitche> solidwhetstone: you're asking for a black-and-white answer to a very grayscale question.
  225. <solidwhetstone> i'm not sure how to reword that lol. i guess what i mean is- if the mods feel like- for example- srs is fostering an environment that encourages off-site doxxing, does reddit consider that?
  226. <@chromakode> also, I'd like to turn this question around to you. put yourself in our shoes. being a mod isn't very different from being an admin, particularly in responding to community issues in this respect, as kemitche said, we approach this from wanting to foster safe and constructive interaction on reddit
  227. <@chromakode> I thought doxxing was a behavior, not a type of content?
  228. <@chromakode> personal information also varies depending on the person
  229. <@chromakode> we work really hard at all hours of the night to protect peoples' personal information on reddit
  230. <solidwhetstone> right
  231. <@chromakode> but how can we better protect people from themselves or the rest of the internet?
  232. <@kemitche> The "black" end is: A link to a site that encourages users to look up /compile information on a reddit user and harass them. The "white" end is a respectable news source saying that such a dox happened, but without supplying any links or names or information (but what news source doesn't provide information?)
  233. <sodypop> A redditor who is not a public figure or celebrity has their real name, photo, and username posted on a site. The site is then linked on reddit. Is that considered posting personal information?
  234. <redtaboo> it is a behavior, for sure, and right now there is a 'this is bad, don't do it' *wink* thing going on with doxxing in certain subreddits
  235. <solidwhetstone> ^
  236. <ZeroShift> ^^
  237. <redtaboo> That is the precise behaviour that should be stomped out
  238. <@chromakode> we actively investigate all activity of that kind
  239. <@chromakode> you may not see it, because we have to be somewhat quiet about it.
  240. <ManWithoutModem> Then why is the jezebelle article still up?
  241. <ManWithoutModem> has the article not been investigated enough?
  242. <ManWithoutModem> You've had around 18 hours or so.
  243. <sodypop> Please, let's not try to assign blame
  244. <@chromakode> I'm here because I want to talk to you
  245. <ManWithoutModem> I want to talk too
  246. <sodypop> Yes, it is frustrating we've been kept in the dark for so long. We also need to keep our heads on straight if we are to discuss this openly.
  247. <redtaboo> ^^^^^
  248. <@chromakode> when you make me accountable for reddit's actions, it makes it hard for me to actually communicate with you and understand your position, because I'm not wholly responsible for what reddit does
  249. <ManWithoutModem> I understand that
  250. <solidwhetstone> @chromakode- is there something we as mods can do- and perhaps that dacvak can do now as the new community manager to help us all be more on the same page as soon as shitstorms happen?
  251. <solidwhetstone> like an internal press release sort of thing
  252. <@chromakode> I think the best thing we can do is get down to the specific of where you feel that action should be taken, and I'll make sure that we have a chance to discuss that
  253. <@kemitche> One key difference to understand is that there is a difference between a call to action (go find information / harass this person) and information that's already out there. Once information has been compiled and posted *somewhere* there's less we can do to limit its spread
  254. *** MillenniumFalc0n has joined #modtalk
  255. <@chromakode> solidwhetstone, I'd love to improve our communication, but please understand that we already keep you in the loop as quickly as we reasonably can
  256. <MillenniumFalc0n> kemitche: precedent says that's not the case though. For instance, I know several users have been dhadowbanned for linking to Laurelai's ED article, which is definitely already compiled and posted pi
  257. <@kemitche> I'm sure you can all recall a time where you had to remove a popular thread from your subreddit, and immediately saw a "WTF happened to post X?" get popular in your subreddit and/or others
  258. *** MobileFalc0n has quit IRC: Quit: desktop
  259. <solidwhetstone> i think there were a lot of concerns that the admins have been pretty silent. just my perception
  260. <sodypop> kemitche, personal information doesn't cease being personal just because it becomes publicly available.
  261. <@chromakode> solidwhetstone, understood, but this is a particularly hairy issue and we'd really appreciate the benefit of the doubt from you
  262. <ZeroShift> sodypop: ^
  263. <solidwhetstone> you definitely have the benefit of the doubt from me personally
  264. <solidwhetstone> i was speaking more of my observation
  265. <@chromakode> gotcha.
  266. <@chromakode> sodypop, agreed, but what are we to do about that?
  267. <@chromakode> sodypop, what would you do?
  268. <@kemitche> sodypop: right. the goal is to minimize the spread. So should we Streisand it? Is that the most effective way to handle it? These are some of the things we have to consider.
  269. <ZeroShift> Fair enough
  270. <sodypop> chromakode, I would remove the Jezebel article that contains personal information (real name and photo) that has been linked to a reddit user's account.
  271. <@chromakode> actually, there's a pretty good analogy to be taken here
  272. <@chromakode> mods have limited ability to prevent people from posting bad stuff in their subreddit, but they can't stop it from propagating outside of their subreddit walls
  273. <@chromakode> as admins, we have the ability to remove bad stuff from reddit, but we can't prevent the rest of the internet from doing so
  274. <solidwhetstone> that's why i created /r/republicofban :)
  275. <@chromakode> as mods, what do you do in a situation like this in your community?
  276. <@chromakode> and please keep in mind that this is a nuanced question
  277. <MillenniumFalc0n> chromakode: all we're asking you to do is not allow it to be posted on reddit
  278. <sodypop> I remove the personal information.
  279. <GuitarFreak> as long as it stays off of reddit, i don't think there would be a problem
  280. <MillenniumFalc0n> ^
  281. <MillenniumFalc0n> which is what we do in our subs
  282. <redtaboo> chromakode~ I approach the other subreddits as a mod, and talk to them.
  283. <sodypop> Or the links to personal information on reddit, to be specific.
  284. <GuitarFreak> i know there's nothing you can really do about stuff outside of reddit, but keeping it off of reddit is a start
  285. <ZeroShift> But in certain cases, some subs refuse to remove link to PI
  286. <@chromakode> gotcha
  287. <solidwhetstone> @chromakode i think we're all on the same page that nothing can be done about off-site stuff
  288. <solidwhetstone> i _think_
  289. <@chromakode> yeah :(
  290. <@chromakode> I think kemitche is right on about getting to the point of the personal information rule
  291. <@chromakode> we definitely have the streissand effect to contend with here
  292. <@chromakode> why do we remove personal info from reddit in the first place?
  293. <MillenniumFalc0n> chromakode: isn't most dox linked to on reddit already compiled?
  294. <ZeroShift> To protect people's info and identities
  295. <redtaboo> to protect users from with hunts IRL
  296. <MillenniumFalc0n> ^
  297. <redtaboo> *witch
  298. <ZeroShift> Some people wish to remain anonymous
  299. <@chromakode> right
  300. <@chromakode> personally, I remained completely anonymous on the internet until I was 18. I totally get that
  301. <@chromakode> MillenniumFalc0n, a significant problem is that reddit can be a great tool for compiling and organizing witchhunts
  302. <@chromakode> it's the magnifying glass you can use to focus the sun
  303. <sodypop> I don't think the streisand effect should paralyze you from removing content that breaks the rules.
  304. <ZeroShift> ^
  305. <@chromakode> totally, I understand that
  306. <@kemitche> sodypop: the spirit of the rule is to prevent witch hunts and such
  307. *** aphoenix has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  308. <MillenniumFalc0n> chromakode: I'm not trying to derail, I'm just trying to find out how you would apply this. Based on this interpretation of doxxing, it seems like I should no longer remove/report, for instance, people who link to Laurelai's ED article (I use her as an example b/c that is the dox problem I deal with most often)
  309. <MillenniumFalc0n> it's already compiled and posted. It's not new
  310. <MillenniumFalc0n> I still remove it though, b/c it is linking a redditor with real life info
  311. *** aphoenix has joined #modtalk
  312. <@chromakode> MillenniumFalc0n, I don't think it would be fair to discuss changes in your action right now. I'm mostly trying to explore the issue with you and help us understand your viewpoint, and for you to understand why we're taking some time to figure out how to respond to this.
  313. *** Relic2279 has joined #modtalk
  314. <sodypop> Wouldn't you consider the jezebel article as encouraging  obvious vigilantism?
  315. <ManWithoutModem> question-when will you make a post to the mods and/or a post to the general public
  316. <sodypop> Something titled, "How to Shut Down Reddit’s CreepShots Once and for All: Name Names"
  317. <sodypop> That's a call for a witch hunt.
  318. <@chromakode> ManWithoutModem, I can't personally answer that question, but we'll communicate with you as much as we can
  319. <@chromakode> sodypop, I agree
  320. *** a_redditor has joined #modtalk
  321. <@kemitche> sodypop: the article would be encouraging vigilante-ism even if it were a description of events without those photos.
  322. <ManWithoutModem> agreed sodypop
  323. <a_redditor> ooh! admins finally
  324. <sodypop> It encourages vigilantism and contains personal information, so isn't that enough to be removed?
  325. <@kemitche> And I don't think i'd agree that an article that says "vigilante-ism happened" is against the rules. Much like an article about the jailbait events is not against the rules.
  326. <ManWithoutModem> what if the article linked to jailbait, just like the vigilante-ism article links to dox?
  327. <ManWithoutModem> do you see what I'm getting at?
  328. <@kemitche> That's not a precise comparison
  329. <sodypop> We should be careful with anologies to jailbait (yes i made one earlier).
  330. <sodypop> CP, or sexualizing minors is illegal. "Doxxing" isn't illegal
  331. <@kemitche> "What If Anderson Cooper showed jailbait" is not a realistic analogy
  332. <@chromakode> also keep in mind that the jezebel article is designed  to be as dramagenic and gray area as possible
  333. <aphoenix> Doxxing isn't illegal, but then again, neither are the Creepshots things.
  334. <ManWithoutModem> or........nevermind
  335. <@chromakode> so, back in our shoes for a moment
  336. <@chromakode> doxing gets posted to an external site
  337. <@chromakode> we remove said site
  338. <@chromakode> attention-grabbing news sites start to report that doxing happens
  339. <@chromakode> what can we do that is constructive then?
  340. <@kemitche> it's 1 pm here and I haven't eaten yet. I'm happy to discuss more later, but I do also have a bunch of other stuff I'm supposed to be getting done.
  341. <Rswany> Go feast
  342. <ManWithoutModem> remove every single thing that discusses the doxxing
  343. <solidwhetstone> thank you for coming by @kemitche
  344. <redtaboo> kemitche~ thank you, please have some pie for lunch!
  345. <MillenniumFalc0n> ^
  346. <sodypop> The news site doxes a redditor itself, it does not only contain a link to the preddito tumblr, but personal name and photo linked to a reddit user in the article.
  347. <@chromakode> drama distracts us massively from improving the site because we all care about it
  348. <@kemitche> redtaboo: I think I will :) solidwhetstone: You're welcome. I'm sorry about the semi-long silence.
  349. <ManWithoutModem> I'm going to sleep since I haven't slept in forever, I hope to come back to some good questions and some good answers in like 9 hours
  350. <ManWithoutModem> keep it going ladies and gents ;)
  351. <@chromakode> sodypop, totally true
  352. <ManWithoutModem> and to the admins-thanks for coming out of the woodwork to talk to us
  353. <aphoenix> mods: I think that just saying "we see what's happening - we care - we don't have much we could do" is enough for me.
  354. *** kemitche is now known as kemitche_afk
  355. <solidwhetstone> since it seems like things are wrapping up- just a quick thank you to the admins for swinging by. i think we are all on the same page that we all love reddit and don't want it to fall apart.
  356. <aphoenix> Personally, I really appreciate that.
  357. <@chromakode> rest well ManWithoutModem
  358. <@chromakode> of course, solidwhetstone, discussions like this improve reddit too
  359. <@chromakode> let's try to keep level headed and not immediately leap to reddit falling apart due to some drama over which posts were removed
  360. *** MobileFalc0n has joined #modtalk
  361. <solidwhetstone> well digg has proven that one event can cause a social site to fall apart
  362. <sodypop> So, personal information is on the jezebel article directly. It's also a call for a witch hunt. We've agreed on that so far, right?
  363. <@chromakode> and we get to prove that we're stronger than that
  364. <@chromakode> these sort of issues aren't going to stop happening. we're going to have more gray areas and controversial issues the more the site grows
  365. <@cupcake1713> digg fell apart for totally different reasons, solidwhetstone
  366. <sodypop> And so I understand this, the reasoning for not removing the ejzebel article is because fear of a streisand effect?
  367. <@chromakode> sodypop, yeah, I hear ya
  368. <@chromakode> sodypop, I'm not saying that's the reasoning
  369. <@chromakode> I want to hear your opinion on whether removing it is constructive to reddit
  370. <solidwhetstone> @cupcake- i know- but a big part of what makes reddit successful is moderation. and if the mods lose faith in the system, they will leave. if they leave, the quality will decrease.
  371. <sodypop> I feel it is destructive to the trust between reddit user/mod and the admins.
  372. <sodypop> We need a reasonable amount of assurance that if our personal details are spread across reddit, that some action will be taken.
  373. <ZeroShift> ^
  374. <DEADB33F> probably not constructive, once the removal becomes common knowledge you'll soon have your attention-grabbing news sites starting to report that "reddit admins are actively protecting child pornographers."
  375. <MillenniumFalc0n> As someone who has been threatened with doxxing several times already, I'm a little disheartened.
  376. <DEADB33F> and other such ridiculous headlines.
  377. <MillenniumFalc0n> those headlines already exists
  378. <MillenniumFalc0n> People that hate reddit (SRS) are going to hate reddit no matter what we do
  379. <DEADB33F> Yeah, but not that the admins are directly involved.
  380. <@chromakode> sodypop, I completely, 100% get that, and feel strongly about that
  381. <MillenniumFalc0n> It says "reddit is protecting child pornographers"
  382. <DEADB33F> Which is totally different.
  383. <MillenniumFalc0n> definitely implying that the site as a whole is doing it
  384. <redtaboo> chromakode~ I get what you guys are saying about it being already offsite and you can't control that
  385. <MillenniumFalc0n> I wish there was an easy solution guys, but I appreciate y'all coming out to discuss with us
  386. <redtaboo> but, really.. who else but reddit is going to care?
  387. <redtaboo> so, if it's not on reddit then the proliferation and possiblity of witch hunt goes way down
  388. <@chromakode> MillenniumFalc0n, there'll almost never be an easy solution
  389. <MillenniumFalc0n> chromakode: comes with the territory.You shouldn't have let Reddit get so popular :P
  390. <redtaboo> And, with that, I don't necessarily mean the post that's up now (though this is why I want it removed)
  391. <@chromakode> redtaboo, gotcha
  392. <@chromakode> before we debate that, I'd like to say first off that I think what you guys are doing is fantastic and that this is the sort of relationship I'd like to see between the admins and the mods (but with less drama, please)
  393. <redtaboo> completely agree with you
  394. <sodypop> It's great that we're even having this convo, albeit later than we as mods would have liked.
  395. <@chromakode> I totally like to see the mods politely and constructively calling us out when necessary
  396. <sodypop> I still am confused at the reason for not removing links to the jezebel article, however.
  397. <@chromakode> sodypop, it's unfortunate, but there's not much we can do about that :(
  398. <@chromakode> I hear that sodypop
  399. <sodypop> chromakode, not to mention awful timing with the Internet 2012 bus tour leaving you short a GM.
  400. <@chromakode> totally
  401. <GuitarFreak> and on dac's second "official" day too
  402. <@cupcake1713> haha sodypop, i was on the bus tour and just got back yesterday
  403. <@chromakode> trying to figure out how to discuss that when there's not much I can do about removing or not removing that specific link
  404. <@cupcake1713> and came back to this
  405. <sodypop> cupcake1713, welcome back :)
  406. <redtaboo> ^^^^
  407. <@cupcake1713> heh thanks
  408. <redtaboo> sorry we jumped on you earlier
  409. <@chromakode> yeah seriously guys
  410. <@chromakode> if there's one additional thing I'd like to see come out of this, it's figuring out how to approach a similar situation in the future better
  411. <@chromakode> not to derail from the discussion we're having right now, though
  412. <@cupcake1713> it's okay redtaboo, i understand how confusing/stressful/etc this must have been for everyone
  413. <GuitarFreak> it was rather funny that you joined, everyone jumped on you, and you left 2 minutes later
  414. <@cupcake1713> :)
  415. <@chromakode> so, sodypop, redtaboo: regarding the jezebel article
  416. <@chromakode> I agree with you that its title and positioning evokes vigilanteism
  417. *** soupyhands has joined #modtalk
  418. <@chromakode> and that it contains screenshots from the primary doxing source containing PI
  419. <@chromakode> those are objective facts
  420. <GuitarFreak> chromakode: a bit off topic, but at some point, would you be willing to discuss SRS with us?
  421. <@chromakode> GuitarFreak, I'm don't think I'm the right person to do so,
  422. <GuitarFreak> alright
  423. <@chromakode> it looks like Dac responded to some comments about it in the recent blog post comment thread
  424. <redtaboo> chromakode~ would it be fair to say that the original doxxing source is not a valid source for anything?
  425. <@chromakode> redtaboo, that it could be false info, you mean?
  426. <redtaboo> yes
  427. <@chromakode> totally, this is the internet
  428. <redtaboo> okay, knowing all this I can't see what good can come from leaving it up. only bad
  429. <@chromakode> the jezebel article?
  430. <redtaboo> ys
  431. <redtaboo> *yes
  432. <@chromakode> and what good would removing it do? prevent more people from seeing that information as a result of reddit?
  433. <redtaboo> yes, as I said most of the interest in that is from reddit
  434. <@chromakode> I think we can make an argument independent from where the interest is coming from
  435. <aphoenix> chromakode - i follow you. I'm looking at a pros / cons list. I can't really see what removing it has in the "pros" list. Other than sticking to one's guns re: personal information...
  436. <redtaboo> I'm quite sure many 2xcers have no idea what is going on
  437. <redtaboo> Other than sticking to one's guns re: personal information... <--- this (downvote me for not contributing)
  438. <MillenniumFalc0n> hmm. Saydrah quitting reddit?
  439. <redtaboo> MillenniumFalc0n~ wrong window?
  440. <mirashii> FWIW, there have been incidents in the past where personal information was being spread on other sites (like youtube), and was spreading out of control rapidly, and admins and mods together stuck their grounds to keep it off
  441. <soupyhands> silly redtaboo you cant downvote on irc
  442. <redtaboo> :P
  443. <MillenniumFalc0n> redtaboo: whoops, should have gone in reddiction
  444. <mirashii> To me, the argument that "it's popular enough anyways, what more harm is a link from reddit going to do" is a slippery slope
  445. <MillenniumFalc0n> not that anyone uses it
  446. <redtaboo> mirashii~ thank you, that is very well said
  447. <@chromakode> mirashii, I agree.
  448. <GuitarFreak> mirashii: /r/videos is a good example of this. we deal with witch hunts more often than most subreddits it seems
  449. <@chromakode> mirashii, that's not the angle I intend to approach this from
  450. <mirashii> It's a particularly slippery slope in the case that what if someone's PI starts on reddit, gets popular on the rest of the internet, and we allow it to stay on reddit because "Well, it's out there anyways". Which is somewhat close to this but not exactly this situation
  451. *** Attunement has quit IRC: Quit: Gone to do awesome stuff
  452. <@chromakode> what I'm trying to do is narrow down our subjective interpretations of reddit PI rule and the jezebel page (which seems to be the focus of this disagreement) so that I can better communicate your points of view in our internal discussions
  453. <@chromakode> admins take removing links really seriously, because it's something we're under intense scrutiny for
  454. <mirashii> (I'm jumping in kinda late, I haven't gotten the change to read the backlog other than skimming and seeing one line that seemed like the argument I just quoted from an @ somewhere, so forgive me if you've had this conversation already)
  455. <solidwhetstone> i think a good filter for removing links might be 'is this content going to hurt the reddit community? will removing this link protect anyone from doxxing?'
  456. <@chromakode> solidwhetstone, totally
  457. <@chromakode> that's why I'm asking you those questions
  458. <solidwhetstone> i think a lot of people in this room at least feel like the jezebel article is hurting the reddit community
  459. <solidwhetstone> not because it's informational or just a news article
  460. <@chromakode> but because it contains PI and encourages further vigilanteism?
  461. <solidwhetstone> yes.
  462. <@chromakode> I think we're on the same page here
  463. <redtaboo> chromakode~ yes. If this was an article where someone was areested, like the teacher was, that would be different
  464. <Rswany> lol, SoInvictus has been helping feed that Atlantic Wire writer "information"
  465. <sodypop> I feel that the attitude is that "the damage has already been done, so why remove it?"
  466. <redtaboo> that /is/ news, and verifiable. This is neither
  467. <sodypop> I cannot agree to enforcing the PI rule only for damage control reasons.
  468. <solidwhetstone> on a side note- predditors is locked
  469. <@chromakode> sodypop, redtaboo: both excellent points
  470. <@chromakode> now I think you understand the pickle we're in, and vice versa
  471. <@chromakode> besides that specific jezebel link, what are your concerns regarding doxxing in general?
  472. <solidwhetstone> that the philosophy of doxxing is practically embraced by srs.
  473. <redtaboo> my biggest concern is that the doxxing is often incorrect, and the vigilantism is often over done for the 'crime'
  474. <GuitarFreak> one of my concerns is having the potential to seriously hinder a person's life because of some stupid little thing
  475. <@chromakode> totally
  476. <@chromakode> those are huge problems on the internet in general
  477. <@chromakode> what can we as mods and admins do better?
  478. <solidwhetstone> break up groups that are fostering it
  479. <GuitarFreak> this is especially true for me because I would like to do stuff in the security field and possibly government related, so i don't want stupid shit like that weighing in on anything
  480. <redtaboo> educate ourselves and users about keeping our personal personal... but, reddit works so well because people share their lives
  481. <@chromakode> redtaboo, totally agreed on education
  482. <sodypop> My concern is with trust and assurance that my own details would be removed if they were spread across reddit.
  483. <redtaboo> GuitarFreak~ I'm currently seeking employment, if something were to happen to me now and were googleable I would be screwed
  484. <redtaboo> sodypop~ I agree with you
  485. <GuitarFreak> sodypop: agreed
  486. <sodypop> I feel badly for the redditors that have had their details spread. There are subreddits that refuse to remove links to their PI.
  487. <redtaboo> I feel badly that some of that information may be incorrect
  488. <redtaboo> and peoples jobs were called
  489. <sodypop> I think even if this is a grey area of the PI policy, the benefit of the doubt has been eclipsed by the call for a witch hunt.
  490. <@chromakode> I hear ya
  491. <@chromakode> and I really appreciate that you're thinking so deeply on this
  492. <sodypop> I would strongly disagree that this is a grey area though, names in the text of the article, pictures of the user, and links to more PI./
  493. <@chromakode> sodypop, I think you've made that case fairly.
  494. <@chromakode> and I will make sure that point is made
  495. <sodypop> Thank you, it means alot that you are here listening even if I am a broken record.
  496. <solidwhetstone> hey even a broken record is right once every 360 degrees
  497. <@chromakode> :)
  498. *** kemitche_afk is now known as kemitche
  499. <@chromakode> I'm sorry we weren't talking with you yesterday
  500. <@chromakode> we really don't want to create drama by getting details wrong or making promises we can't keep
  501. <sodypop> As the reddit team grows I'm sure getting everyone on the same page is difficult.
  502. <@chromakode> so sometimes we have to resolve often-parallel debates internally before we can communicate with you
  503. <@chromakode> sodypop, that's one reason we tend to stay small
  504. <solidwhetstone> @chromakode you don't have to actually announce anything ya know. you could just come into threads about it and say 'we're working on it' and that' sit
  505. <redtaboo> solidwhetstone~ to be fair HP did at one point
  506. <@chromakode> solidwhetstone, true, but sometimes we're already up to our eyeballs in it. I think you understand
  507. <redtaboo> but
  508. <@cupcake1713> solidwhetstone: would that really have changed anything?
  509. <solidwhetstone> @cupcake wouldn't have changed the issue, but we're having a meta discussion about communication right now
  510. <sodypop> I think it would have eased a lot of the speculation and concerns from users and mods.
  511. <solidwhetstone> so yes, it does change some things
  512. <solidwhetstone> it's the perception the mods and users have
  513. <@cupcake1713> but if huey already did it, and i was met with all of those comments literally seconds after i logged in... wouldn't that show that saying "we're working on it" wouldn't have changed anything?
  514. <redtaboo> cupcake1713~ HP did, however we asked him very specific questions about PI eing left up
  515. <@kemitche> I do have to say the excessive speculation is a bit harmful. There's no need to jump into some conspiracy just because it takes longer than 2 hours for one of us to make a statement :-\
  516. <redtaboo> then were met with silence, I even emailed him & dac and PM'd reddit.com
  517. <sodypop> Okay, we can't argue what's happened already, but we can learn from it as both mods and admins.
  518. <@chromakode> +1
  519. <redtaboo> sodypop~ good point
  520. * @kemitche has definitely learned something
  521. <@kemitche> Did not have pie though
  522. <@kemitche> :(
  523. <redtaboo> :(
  524. <solidwhetstone> dammit!
  525. * redtaboo sends kemitche pie
  526. <@chromakode> I haven't eaten anything since I've woken up
  527. <solidwhetstone> someone create /r/randomactsofpie
  528. <sodypop> I do feel that we as mods may not have gone apeshit with banning gawker domains if the PI in those jezebel articles weren't spreading like wild fire.
  529. <redtaboo> chromakode~ go eat ice cream
  530. <@chromakode> trying to get HP in here. is it possible for someone to invite him?
  531. * @kemitche hands chromakode the baton
  532. <redtaboo> I can
  533. <@kemitche> go eat, chromakode
  534. <redtaboo> is he reg'd as hueypriest?
  535. <sodypop> So I think with that in mind, being cautious of the streisand effect caused by removing the jezebel links, actually caused us as mods to streisand the issue further by banning gawker.... if that makes any sense
  536. <@chromakode> redtaboo, not sure if he is registered. going to try to get him on, and then perhaps you could /invite him?
  537. <redtaboo> I'll do my best
  538. <redtaboo> have him PM me
  539. <redtaboo> i think he has to be registered for the invite to work
  540. *** cupcake1713 has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving.
  541. *** hueypriest has joined #modtalk
  542. <solidwhetstone> bienvenidos
  543. <hueypriest> howdy
  544. <redtaboo> welcome
  545. <solidwhetstone> how's the bus?
  546. <hueypriest> i've been in BFE kentucky. not much internets there
  547. *** GuitarFreak is now known as GuitarFreak027
  548. <hueypriest> but bus is good. trip wrapping up
  549. *** GuitarFreak has joined #modtalk
  550. <solidwhetstone> nothing like a good old fashioned shitstorm to wrap it up with
  551. *** GuitarFreak is now known as GuitarFreak|Linux
  552. <hueypriest> so, i'm basically caught up on everything. want to answer any questions I can, etc.
  553. <solidwhetstone> boxers or briefs?
  554. <soupyhands> apple or android
  555. <hueypriest> solidwhetstone, we looked at the print out of your face everyday. thanks (i think)
  556. <mirashii> I'm jsut coming back in, but I have one suggestion I'd like to leave before I pop back out again
  557. <solidwhetstone> @hueypriest i pity you haha
  558. <mirashii> I would suggest a "remove first, reinstate later" policy. Leaving the information up while you decide internally what to do with it makes it so that by the time a decision has been made, the damage has already been done.
  559. <hueypriest> i haven't done laundry in a long time, so wearing what was available for sale at the truck stop. apple.
  560. <soupyhands> yay
  561. <solidwhetstone> booo
  562. <soupyhands> ^^^silence you
  563. <solidwhetstone> :]
  564. <soupyhands> hueypriest what do you think of PIMA allegations that admins were involved in VA's doxxing
  565. <solidwhetstone> hp i think chromakode and kemitche took the brunt of the discussion
  566. <redtaboo> soupyhands~ I think that's silly and not worth anything
  567. <GuitarFreak027> hueypriest: is anything going to be done regarding SRS and the jezebel article/doxing?
  568. <redtaboo> PIMA is a trol and a shit-stirrer
  569. <hueypriest> mirashii that sounds reasonable. we tend to err on the side of banning in general
  570. <@chromakode> soupyhands, I think it should go without saying that I had absolutely no hand in any personal info being disclosed
  571. <mirashii> And some of the mods have shown yesterday/today that while waiting for an official response, they will attempt to take matters into their own hands, even when it was pointed out that it may often just take you guys some time in this channel. And honestly, I think the response by the mods when the admins didn't step in spiralled it further out of control.
  572. <hueypriest> soupyhands, there's absolutely no truth to that
  573. <soupyhands> thanks for clarifying that
  574. <soupyhands> i dont believe a word that comes out of PIMAs mouth but his post saw some traffic there
  575. <soupyhands> and once that kind of allegation is out there its hard to disprove
  576. <@chromakode> or prove
  577. <soupyhands> i think VA wanted one last chance at painting the admins as bad guys
  578. <solidwhetstone> i talked to VA and he hasn't a clue who doxxed him.
  579. <solidwhetstone> but when he initially got contacted by the gawker guy- he told me he did suspect the admins
  580. *** DerTauman is now known as MooseTauman
  581. <@chromakode> soupyhands, VA himself apologized for implicating Steve and I. he didn't intend it
  582. <solidwhetstone> he has later just said he has no clue
  583. <soupyhands> chromakode did PIMA ever retract his allegation though?
  584. <redtaboo> chromakode~ he also did so in modtalk and told everyone they are allowed to repeat that
  585. <hueypriest> guitarfreak027 even though i think it's irresponsible it's an article. different than users posting it in comments or link to pastebin/tumblr
  586. <solidwhetstone> fyi- r/movies will be quietly blocking all the gawker sites probably today
  587. <solidwhetstone> but will not be making an announcement
  588. *** airmandan|work has joined #modtalk
  589. <mirashii> hueypriest: if you could, would you guys internally in the coming days have an internal discussion on that, and decide whether you think as a whole it's a good policy? Having a public, unified stance on the matter will help know whether or not to escalate it to the admins when a post which my be borderline is being sanctioned by a subreddit's moderators. I think that the people who were so upset (I'm not one of them, just a bystander trying to hel
  590. <sodypop> I'm not sure defending it as journalism flies given Gawkers history of creating reddit-bombs of drama for their own profit.
  591. <airmandan|work> oh dear
  592. <airmandan|work> what have I missed
  593. <solidwhetstone> lol
  594. <DEADB33F> I'd say that removing/censoring the article will harm the admin's credibility more than the article is currently hurting the community.
  595. <MillenniumFalc0n> how?
  596. <airmandan|work> i go to one doctor appointment and that's the time we get an admin response
  597. <MillenniumFalc0n> how would removing an article including dox be at all inconsistent with previous action DEADB33f
  598. <DEADB33F> It'll make it easy for unscrupulous types to paint the picture that the admins are condoning the actions of those being exposed.
  599. <MillenniumFalc0n> better to condone doxxing?
  600. <DEADB33F> Which is totally the wrong signal to send out.
  601. <hueypriest> mirashii ok. usually if something is borderline we usually leave it to subreddit mods, but please escalate anything borderline to admins.
  602. <mirashii> DEADB33F: I think that's easy to say now that things have blown up to the stage they are in, but if the articles had been taken down earlier and the incident hadn't escalated to the multiday event that it is, the story may be different
  603. <mirashii> It's one of those things where taking it down can never help their credibility, because it was taken down and so we have to give our silent thanks
  604. <hueypriest> sodypop i agree with your sentiment, but it's still in that category. even if it's poorly done
  605. <DEADB33F> That may be true, but the current discussion is whether they should now be taken down.
  606. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: we've all reported the jezebelle article to the SRS mods and to you guys, but it's still up
  607. <MillenniumFalc0n> and it definitely includes dox
  608. <mirashii> DEADB33F: I'm in parallel more worried about going forward
  609. <mirashii> :)
  610. <redtaboo> hueypriest~ I'm not sure how it can be anywhere near journalism when the source is a tumblr blog
  611. <mirashii> But I need to run. I look forward to coming back to this at a later date.
  612. <sodypop> So any site willing to post personal information is okay to link on reddit? That leaves open blogs, tabloids, and other questionable sites an avenue to post PI with no consequence.
  613. <redtaboo> thanks for piping in mirashii
  614. *** RestoreFear has joined #modtalk
  615. <MobileFalc0n> People have been shadow banned for linking less egregious personal info than this
  616. <sodypop> With multiple blog posts pounding it into our heads that posting PI, or links to PI, is not acceptible, this becomes very confusing.
  617. <hueypriest> redtaboo, it has a byline. it's a news article. I agree it is a difficult case.
  618. <airmandan|work> gawker is not news
  619. <airmandan|work> period
  620. <airmandan|work> end of story
  621. <soupyhands> hueypriest, offtopic a little bit but while you are here, can I ask if /r/repportthespammers is still monitored?
  622. <redtaboo> hueypriest~ shouldn't we be better than that? We can read the 'article' see that the source is bad and the 'article is harmful
  623. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: anyone can create a blog with a byline
  624. <DEADB33F> It would be credible if it had checked its sources and approached those mentioned in the article for comment, either to confirm or deny that they're the person mentioned in the blog post.
  625. <DEADB33F> Without that sorce checking it's just gossip mongering.
  626. <DEADB33F> source*
  627. <redtaboo> as I sad before, the articles about the teacher being arrested were different, that was verifiable
  628. <hueypriest> millenniumfalc0n we are aware of this. it's a judgement call. we make many of them with borderline PI cases
  629. <airmandan|work> gawker is the internet version of the National Enquirer
  630. <airmandan|work> with less credibility and originality
  631. <hueypriest> soupyhands, yes it is being monitored
  632. <MillenniumFalc0n> how is this borderline?
  633. <soupyhands> thanks
  634. <MillenniumFalc0n> linking multiple reddit accounts with names, facebooks, addresses, phone numbers
  635. <MillenniumFalc0n> even workplaces!
  636. <airmandan|work> and criminal records
  637. <airmandan|work> those too
  638. <sodypop> We as users and moderators need to be able to trust that if our PI gets spread, that it will be removed within a reasonable amount of time.
  639. <MillenniumFalc0n> I'm sorry if I'm coming off as confrontational, but as someone who has been threatened with doxxing, I"m just very nervous right now
  640. <hueypriest> we do that, and we all agree about 99% of the personal info that gets posted to reddit
  641. <sodypop> We need assurances that our anonymity is going to be protected, at least within the site itself.
  642. <airmandan|work> laurelai gets people shadowbanned for people linking *to a google search for her username*
  643. <airmandan|work> but somehow predditors is...a-ok?
  644. <MillenniumFalc0n> airmandan: I brought that up earlier
  645. <hueypriest> milleniumfalc0n, I understand why you are nervous. it's a serious issue and we take it seriously as a company. i take it seriously personally as well.
  646. <sodypop> The jezebel article contains a real name and picture linking the user to their username. It is also an instructional for witch hunts. This in my eyes is not borderline at all.
  647. <MillenniumFalc0n> she has had people shadow banned repeatedly for linking to far less egregious personal info
  648. <MillenniumFalc0n> thanks hueypriest, we appreciate you listening to our concerns and working on this
  649. <hueypriest> milleniumFalc0n yes we discussed those laurelai examples as well
  650. *** GuitarFreak027 has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  651. <redtaboo> hueypriest~ can you express how this is different?
  652. <sodypop> We as moderators are the first line of defence against PI, and it feels like the definition given to us by admins is being overlooked because a fear of the streisand effect.
  653. <redtaboo> *explain
  654. *** MooseTauman is now known as DerTauman
  655. <airmandan|work> I'm just flabbergasted here
  656. <airmandan|work> linking to a google search for "Laurelai" is a shadow-bannable PI offense
  657. <hueypriest> we don't ban news articles for personal info. yes i know it's an insult to news to refer to gawker as that, but that is still what it is
  658. <airmandan|work> linking to a jezebel article that has names, address, phone number, employment information, criminal records, pictures, and family info...that's a-ok, because that's "journalism"
  659. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: where is the cut off between blog and news?
  660. <sodypop> " Posting professional links to contact a congressman or the CEO of some company is probably fine, but don't post anything inviting harassment, don't harass, and don't cheer on or vote up obvious vigilantism. "
  661. <hueypriest> airmandan the google search result example is probably a mistake on our part to be honest
  662. <sodypop> I think this definition needs to change on the help page if "news" sites are exempt.
  663. <hueypriest> milleniumfalc0n,  we can't make/write a perfect distinction
  664. <hueypriest> sodypop, perhaps that is needed. don't think we've seen this level of Pi on a news site before
  665. <sodypop> It's been pounded into our heads that PI isn't allowed, never mentioned that news sites are exempt
  666. <airmandan|work> I'm going to be frank here
  667. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: can we all agree that this is wrong? Propragating witchhunt-enabling PI? Does it really matter that it's from a "news source"? It still breaks reddit.com/rules
  668. <airmandan|work> and no disrespect is intended to anybody
  669. <airmandan|work> but what I am taking away from this right now
  670. <sodypop> It's troubling that now, when it is blow up and conflated, that this rule is being enforced in a seemingly selective manner.
  671. <airmandan|work> is that to get action taken, we should act more like laurelai.  be petulant, abrasive, insulting, and a constant thorn in everyone's ass.
  672. <airmandan|work> that seems to work.
  673. <redtaboo> airmandan|work~ but, we're better than that
  674. <airmandan|work> redtaboo: I'd like to think so yeah
  675. <airmandan|work> but if my livelihood is in jeopardy
  676. *** dihydrogen has joined #modtalk
  677. <DEADB33F> 'Proper' news outlets check facts and vet their sources before publishing, blogs do this too sometimes which is why there's no real clear cut definition.
  678. <DEADB33F> Also, defacto news sites can host opinion pieces which are often nothing more than 'blogs' themselves, further blurring the definition.
  679. <sodypop> Gawker is a gossip site / tabloid, not journalism.
  680. <redtaboo> and their "proof" or "source" was a tumblr blog ran for express purpose of doxxing redditors
  681. <a_redditor> do I see a "PI allowed news sources' whitelist in the brewing?
  682. <redtaboo> I think the line should be set at verifiable sources
  683. <hueypriest> airmandan i understand what you are saying and i appreciate you being frank
  684. <hueypriest> i'll be frank too
  685. <hueypriest> this is a pretty unique case
  686. <hueypriest> we've never had a news site policy cause we've never really seen something like this before.
  687. <DEADB33F> Yeah, it would have taken very little time to contact those who were doxxed and get them to confirm/deny the allegations.
  688. <hueypriest> only smaller local news articles
  689. <redtaboo> hueypriest~ the problem is, we all see it as something that could happen to us
  690. <hueypriest> which we removed or not on a case by case basis
  691. <Raerth> hueypriest, was there any sort of plan or clear process in place for how to deal with people who create subreddits around legal yet morally questionable material?
  692. <sodypop> Given Gawker's history with reddit, the precensce of PI, and the call for a witch hunt, I don't think the jezebel "article" should be given the benefit of the doubt.
  693. <redtaboo> ^^^^^^
  694. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: let's get down to it. If you remove news articles on a case by case basis, what about this article makes you think it shouldn't be removed?
  695. <@kemitche> sodypop: we try not to let personal greivances affect our policy making
  696. <Raerth> as this is something that's sure to happen with reddit's current structure, and something that's sure to cause outrage on the "front page of the internet"
  697. <hueypriest> redtaboo if it should happen to any of you or anyone else in the future we will remove it
  698. <sodypop> kemitche, drop that it's gawker and my poiny is still valid.
  699. <sodypop> *point
  700. <sodypop> Vigilantism and personal info are a dangerous combination.
  701. <airmandan|work> hueypriest: that's a reactive solution
  702. <redtaboo> I appreciate that reassurance, hueypriest
  703. <airmandan|work> that's not optimal
  704. <airmandan|work> we should not be reactive
  705. <airmandan|work> we should be proactive
  706. <@kemitche> airmandan|work: removing anything is reactive.
  707. <airmandan|work> and eventually, predictive
  708. <airmandan|work> kemitche: right, exactly
  709. <airmandan|work> instead of waiting for bad shit to show up, and then removing it
  710. <airmandan|work> we should have an agenda that prevents it from happening in the first place
  711. <@kemitche> so you want us to, what, right an algorithm that figures out if a linked article or anything it links to will cause someone somewhere to get doxed?
  712. <hueypriest> sodypop we agree that it is a dangerous combo and that's why we have a harder line against personal info than most other places
  713. *** MobileFalc0n has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
  714. <redtaboo> off topic, but not (Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/11brz4/can_anyone_help_identify_this_bikini_ive_seen_it/)http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/11brz4/can_anyone_help_identify_this_bikini_ive_seen_it/ <-- why is a creepshot in 2x's spam filter getting upvotes?
  715. <airmandan|work> kemitche: it's not about algorithms, it's about culture
  716. <@kemitche> *write
  717. <airmandan|work> this happened because SRS learned that they basically can do whatever the hell they feel like
  718. <@kemitche> reddit has, by design, a very loose and non-restrictive culture
  719. <airmandan|work> yes it does
  720. <Raerth> kemitche, then you need to decide if reddit's going to be the lovechild of 4chan and SA, or if it's going to be the public front page of the internet
  721. <Raerth> it cannot be both
  722. <airmandan|work> and that's fine for world news, programming, politics, and bronies
  723. <Raerth> with the current structure, you're guaranteed to have people pushing the limits
  724. <bep> oh no
  725. <Raerth> that's human nature
  726. <airmandan|work> but there was supposed to have been a clear line drawn at personal information and actions that threaten the integrity of reddit
  727. <bep> did i miss cupcake
  728. <bep> hueypriest: can you tell cupcake i'm sorry i missed her pm but i'll be online for next hourISH
  729. <Raerth> there needs to be a process in place of how to deal with these people
  730. <Raerth> something that we can point the press to when they start to complain
  731. <bep> oh my dropped in the middle of an admin convo
  732. * bep quiets
  733. <airmandan|work> SRS learned that the rules don't apply to them.  and now people are getting doxxed.
  734. <airmandan|work> through inaction, we enabled that culture of defiance to develop
  735. <Raerth> I have no problem with being 4chan 2.0, but if we want to be that, we should not be surprised when we get stuff like this happen
  736. <airmandan|work> it's a problem that can't be fixed with a couple bans of a couple users, or reactive removing of individual posts
  737. <hueypriest> airmandan we ban ANY user posting personal info on reddit
  738. <bep> DEADB33F, nice to see you here <3
  739. <DEADB33F> Yeah, long time no see.
  740. <bep> :D cheers on the update of mod tools
  741. <DEADB33F> Been busy with work for 6 month, so not much reddit.
  742. <airmandan|work> we need to develop a long-term strategy for curating the culture of users
  743. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: how does this "news" article not get removed for being PI, but people get banned for posting links to that article about Laurelai getting raided by the FBI?
  744. <Raerth> we just need to be clear on how we deal with extremes
  745. <MillenniumFalc0n> It just seems unfair
  746. <airmandan|work> so that when people think, is this something I can do, they have a solid foundation of what is and isn't acceptable, not just to individual mods, not just to specific admins, but the whole social structure of the reddit community
  747. <sodypop> With regards to the jezebel article, it feels like there has been a redefinition of what PI is when compared to all the blog posts and faq page about PI.
  748. <sodypop> And also the other PI that has been removed in the past. It is frustrating to us when definitions shift.
  749. <Raerth> the current drama, it's not the end of the world and it will blow over. but unless we know how to deal with future occurrences this will keep happening.
  750. <airmandan|work> raerth has is right
  751. <airmandan|work> *it
  752. <hueypriest> milleniumfalc0n i get that it seems unfair, and we've probably been too quick to ban with some of the examples you mention
  753. <airmandan|work> reddit has a cancer growing inside it
  754. <airmandan|work> its stated mission is to destroy reddit
  755. <redtaboo> hueypriest~ I disagree, I think laualais info is already out there and well spread... but I think you were right to ban for the removal of it
  756. <redtaboo> er... removal == posting
  757. <MillenniumFalc0n> hueypriest: I don't mean to offend, but frankly when you compare this response to previous responses to PI, it makes it look like you aren't removing the article out of...fear of PR backlash I guess?
  758. <airmandan|work> if we're going to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, we need to deal with that cancer
  759. <redtaboo> I think this is a complete reversal from that, and I think you should stay on the previous course
  760. <airmandan|work> I realize that we tried to split the discussion and deal with PI and SRS separately
  761. <MillenniumFalc0n> I agree
  762. <airmandan|work> but they're two sides of the same coin here
  763. <airmandan|work> we can't deal with one without dealing with the other
  764. <redtaboo> airmandan|work~ we need to keep it split right now, I think
  765. <bep> o.o why has hueypriest not got a cloak
  766. <@kemitche> airmandan|work: banning SRS does not kill the cancer. Please stop trying to "force" us down that route.
  767. <MillenniumFalc0n> I remove Laurelai's info when I see it, not because I know the admins will step in, but because I believe we should not allow doxxing of redditors to occur
  768. <airmandan|work> kemitche: I'm not forcing you to do anything
  769. <airmandan|work> I'm asking you to send a message
  770. <hueypriest> millenniumfalc0n no offense taken.
  771. <airmandan|work> because I think it would be productive towards achieving our long-term goals
  772. <@kemitche> I'm telling you that we've heard this message before. And we'll hear it again
  773. <Raerth> SRS is not the problem, they are the symptom
  774. <Jaraxo> ^
  775. <sodypop> This is pretty clear cut of inviting harassment against the users listed on the 'predditors' site and the person named in the jezebel article.
  776. <sodypop> I cannot believe it is even this conflated of a decision.
  777. <@kemitche> We don't ban subreddits just because we don't like them.
  778. <Raerth> agreed
  779. <airmandan|work> sodypop: incorrect word usage alert :p
  780. <airmandan|work> kemitche: of course not
  781. <airmandan|work> if I wanted reddits banned just because I didn't like them
  782. <airmandan|work> I'd be asking you to kill /r/Republican :p
  783. <@kemitche> Just like we don't ban subreddits with political views that differ from those of the admins
  784. <airmandan|work> precisely
  785. <solidwhetstone> @kemitche but you did ban a subreddit because it encouraged a certain type of behavior. and i'mi referring to /r/jailbait encouraging people to pass arond CP
  786. <solidwhetstone> *around
  787. <a_redditor> I'm all for banning subreddits just because the admins don't like them
  788. <solidwhetstone> you meaning the collective 'you'
  789. <a_redditor> get PG in here for a week
  790. <MillenniumFalc0n> The problem is SRS's goal is to destroy reddit. Have you seen how often they float the phrase "Reddit delenda est"?
  791. <MillenniumFalc0n> but anyways, that is a separate issue
  792. <@kemitche> I swear to god, if one more person makes a parallel to jailbait, I'm leaving the channel for a week.
  793. <MillenniumFalc0n> let's not derail the conversation from the more important point
  794. <solidwhetstone> y u mad tho?
  795. <redtaboo> guys, really talking abut SRS is just derailing the real issue
  796. <MillenniumFalc0n> ^
  797. <sodypop> Yes, we should really leave SRS out of this.
  798. <airmandan|work> fine
  799. <MillenniumFalc0n> how about we kick the next person to mention jailbait, instead of you leaving?
  800. <solidwhetstone> you just mentioned it
  801. <bep> !op
  802. *** ChanServ sets mode +o bep
  803. <@bep> k
  804. <airmandan|work> I agree with milleniumFalc0n's idea
  805. * solidwhetstone kick!
  806. <sodypop> For this discussion, the issue I have is whether I can trust that my anonymity will be protected, even if a news site releases my PI.
  807. <Raerth> kemitche, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that being too lax in informing people what is and isn't acceptable on reddit invites people to push the limits, and when you push the limits you will have people take umbrage at that. SRS hates the fact that people push the limits, so they are fighting against it. SRS are not the problem, the problem is we have no clear guidelines on what is acceptable other than "legal stuff", by not comdeming the
  808. <Raerth> stuff SRS hates, we are condoning it by omission.
  809. <sodypop> I mod the two largest subreddits, what assurance do I have against a news site that somehow gets my PI and then starts encouraging a witch hunt?
  810. <@kemitche> no, the problem is the PERCEPTION that "not condemning" = "condoning"
  811. <Raerth> yes
  812. <Raerth> agreed
  813. <Raerth> and we need to correct that
  814. <@kemitche> You don't get pissed off that the phone company doesn't listen in on everyone's conversations for domestic violence and call the police on people
  815. <solidwhetstone> !op
  816. *** -ChanServ- You are not authorized to perform this operation.
  817. <Raerth> agreed
  818. <Raerth> but reddit is not clear on this
  819. <hueypriest> i understand everyone is worried about being doxxed. and understand you don't agree with not banning the jezebel link, but we have a pretty good track record of banning personal info quickly, and i think have been pretty consistent over the years
  820. <solidwhetstone> reddit =/= phone company...i think that parallel breaks down
  821. * Raerth is not worried about being doxxed
  822. <sodypop> Without assurances of anonymity, I have very little motivation to put in the many hours I spend moderating.
  823. <hueypriest> this is a unique case we have not encountered before
  824. *** x316nuts has quit IRC:
  825. <Raerth> hueypriest, it's not an unpredictable case
  826. <airmandan|work> hueypriest: In order to not agree with something, I have to understand it first
  827. <hueypriest> raerth, what am i forgetting?
  828. <sodypop> I thought the case of laurelai's PI being released was a pretty good comparison.
  829. <airmandan|work> right now, I don't understand why the jezebel article is allowed
  830. <solidwhetstone> ^
  831. <sodypop> The jezebel article needs to be removed.
  832. <hueypriest> there have been some other instances of news article linking to pastebin and such, and usually we don't ban those
  833. <Jaraxo> sodypop, to play devils advocate, why should you have anonymity? If this was the real world on a real report into this kind of thing, someone in a similar position would be publicly named
  834. <Raerth> hueypriest, not forgetting anything, just that this type of issue could be foreseen
  835. <Jaraxo> I'm not saying I disagree with you, in fact, I agree with you
  836. <Jaraxo> but you can't just assume that
  837. <sodypop> Jaraxo, anonymity is a core value of reddit
  838. <Jaraxo> in your opinion
  839. <redtaboo> Jaraxo~ because, on reddit people witch hunt over tiny, tiny things
  840. <sodypop> Maybe I've listened to one too many of Alexis's speaches.
  841. <@kemitche> sodypop: we're pseudonymous, not anonymous
  842. <redtaboo> I've been wished to die over removing a picture of a cat
  843. <Jaraxo> exactly kemitche
  844. <redtaboo> by, PIMA.. btw
  845. <@kemitche> You can be anonymous on reddit, but you do have to work harder at it
  846. <solidwhetstone> well we have this same fight in the US and other places. the fight for privacy. we have wiretapping laws in place because of it.
  847. <airmandan|work> I'm not anonymous at all
  848. <@bep> redtaboo: pima tried it on you?!
  849. <Raerth> I've been wished to die for suggesting Radiohead gets posted too much in /r/music, can'
  850. <Jaraxo> we can't act anonymously out in the real world, so why should we have the right to here?
  851. <redtaboo> pima is a fuckfaced troll, bep
  852. <Raerth> can't take this shit too seriously
  853. <Raerth> ;)
  854. <airmandan|work> i'm very easy to google
  855. <@bep> tell me something i do't know, red
  856. <Raerth> plus I got a big beard now and ready to take the world on, RAR
  857. <airmandan|work> I don't particularly mind if people decide they need to mess with me
  858. <airmandan|work> but
  859. <airmandan|work> bring my family or my work into it
  860. <airmandan|work> then I have a problem
  861. <airmandan|work> and that's what's going on with the victims of the jezebel article
  862. <airmandan|work> it's not just them being dragged through the mud
  863. <airmandan|work> their families and colleagues go down with them
  864. *** RestoreFear has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
  865. <@kemitche> the root of the problem is, and always will be, that we cannot stop the rest of the internet. period. end of story. we can make policies and take actions on reddit, against activity that occurs on reddit that causes or encourages such behavior, when and if taking those actions will solve the problem instead of making it worse.
  866. <sodypop> How many people here believe news articles should be exempted from the PI rule, and how many dont? I believe that is the focal point of the discussion here.
  867. <airmandan|work> I don't think there should be any exemptions to the PI rule.
  868. <sodypop> Me neither, airmandan
  869. <Raerth> Nothing is judged by the best it can be, it's judged by the worst it can be. When someone wants to judge reddit, they won't do it by fundraising or Obama's visit, they will do it by /r/picturesofdeadniggers or /r/jailbait
  870. <airmandan|work> raerth!
  871. <airmandan|work> we said no JB comparisons!
  872. <solidwhetstone> BANSTICK
  873. <airmandan|work> you have been naughty.
  874. <Raerth> I was not here :p
  875. <@kemitche> airmandan|work: that's a cop out. No public officials contact info for legitimate reasons?
  876. <@bep> sometimes i want the admins to forward on the information of suicidal people to the police
  877. <airmandan|work> public official is not *personal* info
  878. <airmandan|work> it's, by definition, public data
  879. <@bep> that way they can save them
  880. <@kemitche> "public data"
  881. <@kemitche> So is the jezebel stuff public then? It's in the public, due to the predditors blog.
  882. <@kemitche> See, I can make arguments that go to extremes too
  883. <sodypop> "public officials" are already exempted in the PI faq section
  884. <airmandan|work> I'm not using public as a descriptor, I'm using it as a statement of ownership
  885. <sodypop> personal information cannot stop being personal information
  886. <sodypop> Please let's not confuse personal and private info.
  887. <@kemitche> the FAQ expandos are not all inclusive/exclusive
  888. <@kemitche> they are examples, to help guide, specifically because this is such a gray area
  889. <sodypop> Personal info of a public official, such as their cell phone number, if not released on their official site, should be considered personal info
  890. <@kemitche> e.g., is a link to a small-business with a lot of personal information ok or not? Well, that depends on the context
  891. <sodypop> Public contact information of public officials should remain fine to post.
  892. <Raerth> personally, I would even remove public info if it's a call to witchhunt
  893. <@kemitche> so by the flipside, would you leave semi-personal info if it's NOT a call to witchhunt?
  894. <a_redditor> what's the protocol for if the subject of PI specifically asks for it to be removed?
  895. <a_redditor> even if its easily accessible info?
  896. <Raerth> kemitche, nope
  897. <@bep> this is going nowhere, i am wandering away
  898. <@bep> !deop
  899. *** ChanServ sets mode -o bep
  900. <sodypop> So can I argue that the context of the jezebel article is to witch hunt against the reddit users that have had their personal information posted?
  901. <sodypop> I remove any FB screenshot in which the names are still legible, regardless of context.
  902. <sodypop> The only exception to that is if it is by a public official or celebrity.
  903. <Raerth> kemitche, please don't think I'm attack you and all you believe in (unless you are a Spurs supporter) I know you guys got a tough job, I'm just here to give my 2c
  904. <@kemitche> Raerth: understood. Hope I'm not taking out any stress on you guys right now. I'm a little tense from all the stuff from the last day
  905. <@kemitche> sodypop: how big of a celebrity? "celebrity" is not a binary yes/no status.
  906. <Raerth> understood ;) I'm one of the thicker skinned people anyway, just making sure you know I'm not creating a flammable effigy
  907. *** squatly has joined #modtalk
  908. <@kemitche> that was a rhetorical question btw; the point being that there isn't any hardline, as much as you want to make one. As much as *we* would love to have a simple, easy, hard and fast rule. And because there's no hard line, there are judgment calls involved, which means you'll sometimes get seemingly contradictory actions depending on context.
  909. <sodypop> kemitche, we're all frustrated and none of this is directed at anyone personally.
  910. <@kemitche> Sometimes it's contradictory due to context; sometimes it's due to mistakes on our part or on the part of a mod somewhere.
  911. <Raerth> kemitche, I had a very unpopular suggestion: (Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/11bh11/verify_every_account_that_wishes_to_participate/)http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/11bh11/verify_every_account_that_wishes_to_participate/
  912. <Raerth> it would definitely solve 90% of the drama we see
  913. <@kemitche> (Which is why I get a bit flustered when people try to compare two instances from a high level, rather than examining the specific contexts involved)
  914. <Raerth> I'm of the opinion that if you only ever compare case-by-case, then you're always playing catchup. Sometimes you need to make sweeping decisions from a high level just so everyone can understand where the line is drawn