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  1. Archmage DB: Hi there, I'm not Elfslayer's DM, but I'm interested in hearing your take on this whole situation.
  2. DracoCron: Ah, hello there.
  3. DracoCron: Well, what we have here is a player who's a dick.
  4. DracoCron: He can roleplay well, certainly.
  5. DracoCron: This makes him a popular and clever dick.
  6. Archmage DB: go on
  7. DracoCron: However, he's still a dick, and seems to be causing genuine emotional pain to the DM in question, not to mention his fantasy shenanigans.
  8. DracoCron: Hence, I believe that the moral thing to do is to help her find a way of fixing her game and not to cater to the dick's dickish whims.
  9. Archmage DB: Alright, what do you suggest?
  10. DracoCron: It'd be something I suggest to her if she's not a troll, not you.
  11. DracoCron: With respect, you're not the one I directed my message at and could leak it to /tg/, where I don't want it to be.
  12. Archmage DB: Didn't you ask Elfslayer for his DM's information, so you could leak his plans to him in the first place?
  13. DracoCron: I did.
  14. Archmage DB: Isn't it hypocritical to, therefore, be reticient with your own ideas?
  15. DracoCron: Is it hypocritical to spy on the information of enemies in wartime while telling your subordinates not to leak information to them?
  16. Archmage DB: Treating this as a war is definitely too extreme.  And what "subordinates" do you have?
  17. DracoCron: None, that was just part of the analogy.
  18. Archmage DB: I'm curious, what makes Elfslayer a dick?
  19. DracoCron: I'm not denying you this information out of a respect for privacy in general. I'm denying it because I don't personally want it leaked.
  20. Archmage DB: It's not as though you didn't already post your idea to /tg/
  21. DracoCron: That was just one idea.
  22. DracoCron: To be completely honest, I didn't read the whole thread because I knew it would make me angrier, hence I don't have a detailed idea yet.
  23. DracoCron: I was going to plot it out with Lianne.
  24. DracoCron: But I don't think she exists anyway.
  25. Archmage DB: I thought she didn't at first, but she seems just aware enough of what she's doing to make it questionable.
  26. Archmage DB: So, why does this thread make you angry, and why is Elfslayer a dick?  Surely you can share that.
  27. DracoCron: He's a dick because he planned this specifically to fuck over a setting his DM really liked.
  28. Archmage DB: And?
  29. DracoCron: Dick move.
  30. DracoCron: Period.
  31. Archmage DB: Isn't anything a DM doesn't plan for "fucking over" a setting?
  32. Archmage DB: Even killing the BBEG will permanently and noticeably alter a setting, in effect "fucking it over"
  33. DracoCron: Ah, but that sort of thing generally isn't aimed to cause emotional pain to the DM.
  34. Archmage DB: If the loss of an NPC causes emotional pain to the DM, isn't it a sign that it was bordering on DMPC territory anyway?
  35. Archmage DB: People lose PCs, that you're supposed to feel some connection with, all the time, and I don't see you demanding death always be retconned for "emotional pain"
  36. DracoCron: I wouldn't care if this wasn't an especially egregious case.
  37. DracoCron: As evidenced by the threads talking about it.
  38. DracoCron: In any case, this DM is new.
  39. DracoCron: And evidently fragile.
  40. Archmage DB: egregious?  Howso?  I don't want to put words in your mouth or misinterpret your statements, I believe in the power of honest discussion
  41. DracoCron: It's clear that she's been hurt by this, yes?
  42. Archmage DB: I'd say "somewhat enraged"
  43. Archmage DB: but if a person is angry over losing their PC, do you demand the DM resign at once?
  44. DracoCron: It depends on the manner.
  45. DracoCron: If the DM has decided to assassinate the PC for the purposes of being a dick, yes.
  46. Archmage DB: Hold up, are you saying that he is a dick because of his actions, and those actions are dickish because he performed them for the sake of being a dick?
  47. Archmage DB: Isn't that circular logic?
  48. DracoCron: That's pretty much what he said in the original thread.
  49. Archmage DB: and?
  50. Archmage DB: He said he did it because it was in-character
  51. DracoCron: I think he said that was just an excuse.
  52. Archmage DB: Rereading the original thread, nope, he did it because the royal family would be shamed by having a sodomite prince (much as part of the reason for Nero's assassination was letting his Greek slaves fuck him in public), and because the war helped their economy.
  53. DracoCron: If you replied, I missed it.
  54. DracoCron: Because my Internet is bad.
  55. DracoCron: Anyway.
  56. Archmage DB: Rereading the original thread, nope, he did it because the royal family would be shamed by having a sodomite prince (much as part of the reason for Nero's assassination was letting his Greek slaves fuck him in public), and because the war helped their economy.
  57. Archmage DB: here
  58. DracoCron: Perhaps he wasn't a dick for the sake of being one. That was too much license on my part.
  59. DracoCron: The intent was good, the means and ends were evil.
  60. Archmage DB: Why is the end evil?  Besides, there's a difference in being evil and dickish, is taking a morally questionable action a good reason, IC, to kick a player?
  61. DracoCron: I don't mean kick him.
  62. DracoCron: Ruin his little plan, yes.
  63. DracoCron: Kill him? Maybe.
  64. DracoCron: Make him ragequit? Icing on the cake.
  65. DracoCron: But not just kick him.
  66. DracoCron: As I said, there'd be no end to the whining.
  67. Archmage DB: So, you believe that karma should strike every character at once?  Why would you want him to ragequit?
  68. Archmage DB: *at once, if they perform unjust actions?
  69. DracoCron: It'd be proportionate retribution.
  70. DracoCron: And therefore funny.
  71. DracoCron: Especially if he posted a thread on /tg/ complaining about it.
  72. Archmage DB: He did exactly as he was ordered to do.
  73. Archmage DB: Aren't you being the dickish one, now, attempting to cause "emotional suffering"?
  74. DracoCron: I don't react as much to anger as I do to distress/sadness.
  75. Archmage DB: What if he feels sadness over the loss of his clearly quite nuanced character?
  76. DracoCron: Then it'd be unfortunate, but he did make the first move.
  77. DracoCron: I don't believe in doing bad things to people that are completely unrelated to the bad things they did, but if bad things happen to someone as a result of the bad things they did... well, that's that.
  78. Archmage DB: And?  I'm sorry, this became a tangent, what is the justification for ruining his plan?
  79. DracoCron: It's dickish.
  80. Archmage DB: Didn't we demonstrate that was circular logic?
  81. DracoCron: No, we eliminated that when I revised my estimate of his actions.
  82. Archmage DB: Not at all.  Unless by "dickish", you mean "his means and endgoal were evil", in which case, where is the problem?
  83. Archmage DB: He was acting entirely in-character.
  84. DracoCron: Indeed.
  85. DracoCron: But the DM is clearly not having fun.
  86. Archmage DB: and?
  87. DracoCron: She should act in a way that she can have fun again.
  88. Archmage DB: Even if it means fucking over the majority of her players?
  89. DracoCron: Why would it be the majority?
  90. Archmage DB: If I recall correctly, four of the six characters sided with Elfslayer
  91. DracoCron: Then it's a tie.
  92. Archmage DB: Elfslayer, Elfslayer's Half-Orc Ranger helper, and the two Dwarves
  93. DracoCron: Well, not quite.
  94. DracoCron: But close.
  95. Archmage DB: Seems to me that four of the seven people involved have more fun with Elfslayer's machinations
  96. DracoCron: Also, I'm going to assume that, being the tremendous roleplayers that they are, they'll be able to roll with the punches of it fucking itself over.
  97. Archmage DB: being the tremendous roleplayers they are, isn't it wrong to just fiat the plan into failing?
  98. DracoCron: Hence, a net amount of fun, thus pleasure, is added.
  99. DracoCron: And I didn't say just fiat.
  100. DracoCron: Have it be a logical progression into failure.
  101. Archmage DB: I think it's been demonstrated that won't work, all tracks have been covered short of deus ex machina
  102. DracoCron: Ooh! The player's also a rules lawyer.
  103. DracoCron: So, in all likelihood, he adds smugness to his list of dick attributes.
  104. DracoCron: Best to puncture it, aye?
  105. Archmage DB: Hm.
  106. Archmage DB: Less a rules lawyer, more someone who knows precisely what his abilities do.  Look, not to be rude, but you seem to be extrapolating a lot based on...well...tangential issues
  107. DracoCron: Also, there's no such thing as a Deus ex Machina in D&D.
  108. DracoCron: The DM is God.
  109. Archmage DB: First you claim he was a dick, and that makes his activities dickish.  Then you admit his intentions were not dickish, but he should be punished for his activities nonetheless
  110. DracoCron: Or goddess, in this case.
  111. DracoCron: Eh. I phrased it poorly.
  112. DracoCron: Don't punish him, just... put the world back under her control.
  113. Archmage DB: Then you attribute smugness seemingly out of nowhere.  If you have an emotional, instead of logical, reason for siding with the DM, I'm open to hearing it.
  114. Archmage DB: ...isn't that railroading?
  115. DracoCron: Arguably, all DMing is railroading.
  116. DracoCron: Well, not really.
  117. DracoCron: But no, it doesn't have to be.
  118. Archmage DB: But it should keep to the DM's essential message, even if it involves acts of fiat, right?
  119. DracoCron: Logical and reasonable fiat.
  120. Archmage DB: howso?
  121. DracoCron: I'm not sure yet.
  122. DracoCron: Possibly letting the elves have some form of costly divination that they couldn't bring out until now.
  123. Archmage DB: So, you don't know how what he did is wrong, but you want to punish him for it.  Sorry if I've forgotten, but why do you want to punish him, again?
  124. DracoCron: I know how.
  125. Archmage DB: You admitted his intentions were good
  126. DracoCron: What he did made the DM abruptly stopped having fun.
  127. DracoCron: Thus, one of the goals of the game promptly ceased happening.
  128. DracoCron: A way should be found to correct this.
  129. Archmage DB: So, if a DM is having a female player's character get constantly raped, and she transforms herself into a Warforged...sans orifices...to avoid being raped, the DM stops having fun.  Should he then punish her?
  130. DracoCron: In such a scenario, it seems unlikely that the players were having fun.
  131. Archmage DB: She has acted in the interests of her own character, entirely IC, yet has stopped the DM having fun
  132. Archmage DB: Again, the majority of the group is having more fun with Elfslayer's shenanigans
  133. DracoCron: As rape is quite a not-fun thing to have happen in many cases, the DM may well be the one who started the problem here.
  134. Archmage DB: sympathizing with elves is also a not-fun thing to some people
  135. Archmage DB: See, you can't force players to stay on your rails.
  136. DracoCron: If they can have somewhat less fun, thus allowing the DM to have any fun again, that's a gain.
  137. DracoCron: They don't have to stay on the rails, and in all likelihood, they still won't help the elves.
  138. DracoCron: Unless the party splits.
  139. DracoCron: Which is a definite possibility.
  140. Archmage DB: You seem to be making a lot of assumptions, here.  Such as that this Elfslayer's fun is entirely unimportant
  141. Archmage DB: and that the DM's fun is infinitely moreso
  142. Archmage DB: because if you punish him into death/ragequitting, all of his fun is gone, and the fun of three other players is reduced, thus producing a net LOSS
  143. DracoCron: Fun doesn't quite work like that. It's relative, not an absolute.
  144. Archmage DB: I could say the same thing to support my point, you brought up "net gains" first
  145. DracoCron: A slight drop in fun for four is an acceptable price for a greatly increased level of one.
  146. DracoCron: After all, they still won't be supporting the elves.
  147. DracoCron: They'll no longer be on the DM's rails.
  148. Archmage DB: That's ridiculous.  A complete loss of fun for ONE player, and a reduced...greatly so for at least the mercenary...amount of fun for one, is not an acceptable price for a total gain of fun for ONE person
  149. Archmage DB: Mathematically it makes no sense, and if you can't quantify fun with math, don't try to quantify fun at all.
  150. DracoCron: How would it be a complete loss of fun?
  151. Archmage DB: Because your goal, as stated, is to make him ragequit
  152. DracoCron: That was an emotional statement.
  153. Archmage DB: Despite his having admitted good intentions.
  154. Archmage DB: Go on, what is your emotional reason for wanting this?
  155. Archmage DB: An emotional reason is worth hearing too
  156. DracoCron: I really, really hate it when people take something nice and fuck it over.
  157. DracoCron: Be it real or fiction.
  158. DracoCron: Ruining nice things is, in fact, possibly the one thing I hate most in the world.
  159. Archmage DB: Emotionally speaking, it sounds like the setting was shit anyway
  160. DracoCron: It may have been a little uninspired, but it was nice.
  161. Archmage DB: he acted in character, and emotionally I find that commendable
  162. DracoCron: What should have happened is a more careful cross-examination of character types before the campaign started.
  163. DracoCron: But the DM was new.
  164. Archmage DB: Unless you're saying that characters should alter their personality to avoid potentially changing the setting which, as I said, happens whenever you kill anything
  165. Archmage DB: They wouldn't send elf-lovers out to kill Elves, realistically
  166. DracoCron: Well, she certainly learned her lesson.
  167. DracoCron: Never trust a player.
  168. DracoCron: And especially never trust them to lighten their hearts to anything.
  169. DracoCron: This is a lesson I shall keep in mind when I do my WoW campaign.
  170. Archmage DB: WoW campaign?
  171. DracoCron: Yes. As far as I know, I'm starting up a campaign using the WoW RPG.
  172. Archmage DB: brb feeding dogs
  173. DracoCron: Mkay.
  174. Archmage DB: back
  175. DracoCron: Welcome.
  176. Archmage DB: Sorry for the wait.  So, I understand what you're saying, IC there's no reason to punish him, and probably not one OOC, but...emotionally, you want to get him for this, right?
  177. DracoCron: It seems as though this argument was moot, because Lianne was probably a troll and /tg/ is down.
  178. DracoCron: My wanting to punish him is purely emotional.
  179. DracoCron: Logically, she should find a way of bringing the world enough under her control that she can enjoy it again without being dickish to elffucker.
  180. Archmage DB: Yep, and I can't post this to /tg/, because by the time /tg/ is back up, the thread will be gone.  So, you won't have to worry about that.
  181. Archmage DB: Elffucker?  Elf-fucker was assassinated
  182. DracoCron: Elfslayer gives him too much credit.
  183. DracoCron: I'm therefore using it in its nonsexual sense.
  184. DracoCron: Truth be told, it's a bad word for sex.
  185. Archmage DB: no kidding.  So, purely emotional...because he disrupted the setting, right?
  186. DracoCron: Right.
  187. DracoCron: That's the part of me that wants him to ragequit.
  188. DracoCron: Logically and morally, she should still fix things.
  189. Archmage DB: It's not because the DM is a girl, I'm assuming.  You're a woman, and I'll assume this isn't some weird kind of lesbian whiteknighting.  Especially because you're bisexual, or whatever
  190. Archmage DB: sorry, didn't mean to interrupt
  191. DracoCron: So the main thing that's different is the intent.
  192. DracoCron: Also, truth be told, I am lesbian.
  193. DracoCron: That actually links to what I might like to be my new catchphrase.
  194. DracoCron: "I'll stop white knighting when you stop blackguarding."
  195. DracoCron: But I think I'd have reacted in pretty much the same way had the DM been male.
  196. Archmage DB: So, what do you like about the setting?
  197. DracoCron: Well, I can't find it within myself to dislike societies of mostly genuinely good people much.
  198. Archmage DB: even blatant, unrealistic Sues?
  199. DracoCron: They're fantasy creatures. Who can say what's realistic for them?
  200. DracoCron: I typically try to avoid writing those into my stories.
  201. DracoCron: Because they're not very dramatic.
  202. DracoCron: However, I would never write one to then see it become ruined.
  203. Archmage DB: Except that the DM isn't writing a story for themselves, but a story in which the PCs are the protagonists, therefore shouldn't the world conform at least somewhat to the PCs?
  204. DracoCron: Somewhat.
  205. DracoCron: It need not do so entirely.
  206. DracoCron: And I would never allow a society I was fond of to be annihilated.
  207. DracoCron: Mostly because I'd make it implausible for the PCs to be able to accomplish such a thing.
  208. Archmage DB: Even if it made perfect sense for it to happen?
  209. Archmage DB: So, you'd basically plot armor the societies and NPCs you like?
  210. DracoCron: Well, in WoW, for instance, I doubt my players could wipe out the Forsaken.
  211. DracoCron: If that counts as "plot armor," so be it then.
  212. Archmage DB: in WoW the MMO, well, they respawn
  213. Archmage DB: in the game itself, if they were of sufficient level and had a sufficiently advanced plan, why shouldn't they succeed?
  214. DracoCron: Well... honestly, if someone could, I think it would have happened by now.
  215. DracoCron: The Forsaken have no shortage of enemies.
  216. DracoCron: They're closely knit, paranoid, and ruthless.
  217. Archmage DB: Yeah, but the PCs haven't happened yet
  218. Archmage DB: protagonists are protagonists for a reason
  219. DracoCron: In the words of the DM of Darths and Droids, "there aren't enough dice in the world."
  220. Archmage DB: He wasn't dealing with epic-level PCs, and besides, that referred to doing a specific task
  221. Archmage DB: not a long campaign to destroy the Forsaken
  222. Archmage DB: ...or the Elves
  223. Archmage DB: by contrast, killing a low-level Bard (the Prince) and a Swordmage of nearly his own level (Royal Guard) isn't impossible at all
  224. DracoCron: I still say the DM should unveil a type of costly, unpleasant form of divination that the elves only use if they have no choice.
  225. DracoCron: But they use it and thus finger the dick.
  226. Archmage DB: why?
  227. DracoCron: Hurhur.
  228. DracoCron: Because that way everybody wins.
  229. DracoCron: Elffucker is free of the railroad and the elves aren't doomed to die.
  230. Archmage DB: He's not free of the railroad if they unveil a deus ex machina like that to punish any deviation
  231. Archmage DB: Divination has already been demonstrated to be nerfed in 4e, it wouldn't happen like that
  232. Archmage DB: ...one sec, checking something
  233. DracoCron: It's not the railroad to help the elves.
  234. DracoCron: Railroading is when the PCs can't choose their actions.
  235. Archmage DB: it is when the DM's goal all along was to help them
  236. DracoCron: Having the PCs fail at a task isn't the same thing.
  237. Archmage DB: A task they could never have succeeded in because it was off the rails
  238. Archmage DB: hence the deus ex machina
  239. Archmage DB: ...and I was right, Elfslayer's plan did take Consult Oracle into account
  240. DracoCron: He's clever.
  241. DracoCron: And a rules lawyer smug snake son of a bitch.
  242. Archmage DB: One who has ensured he can't legitimately be caught, thus playing a high-Intelligence Illusionist perfectly
  243. DracoCron: That's no reason for him to succeed if he's ruining the DM's fun.
  244. DracoCron: Thus, the compromise.
  245. DracoCron: Of course, if Elffucker is so wrapped up in his own cleverness that he can't abide failing... well, he knew the risks when he played an evil character.
  246. Archmage DB: There's no reason he should fail
  247. DracoCron: Yes there is.
  248. DracoCron: He's screwed over the DM's fun.
  249. DracoCron: This must be fixed  if all the players are to have fun.
  250. Archmage DB: and so the solution is to screw over his fun?
  251. Archmage DB: and the fun of most of the other players?
  252. DracoCron: I doubt it'll ruin it.
  253. DracoCron: Lower it slightly, perhaps, but that's an acceptable price.
  254. DracoCron: Compromises usually work like that.
  255. Archmage DB: ruining the fun of one player by getting them turned into a tree and thus unable to adventure further, and ruining the fun of his friends
  256. Archmage DB: As I expressed earlier, it's a net loss of fun, silly as quantifying fun is
  257. DracoCron: Who said anything about turning him into a tree?
  258. Archmage DB: That's the Elves' version of a death penalty according to earlier threads
  259. DracoCron: Ah, that.
  260. DracoCron: Well... that's a logical consequence of the actions that he took.
  261. DracoCron: I think that he can live with that.
  262. Archmage DB: No it isn't.  It's something entirely outside of the rules.  The only reason it's a "logical consequence" is because you assume he should get caught
  263. DracoCron: There's also the fact that he gained his fun by ruining the fun of the DM.
  264. DracoCron: Which is kind of like saying that, if four people robbed one person, it would be unfair to the four to take back the stuff they robbed.
  265. Archmage DB: If she totally wants to ignore the spirit of divination in 4e, then she's ruining the game herself, and deserves her players leaving her
  266. Archmage DB: ...also, I'm pretty sure Elfslayer can't be caught by ANY divination when he killed the Guard
  267. Archmage DB: One of the rituals he used, I looked it up
  268. Archmage DB: it automatically nukes any scrying sensors
  269. DracoCron: Don't the elves have access to Wish or something?
  270. Archmage DB: no Wish in 4e
  271. DracoCron: Silly oversight, that.
  272. Archmage DB: necessary balancing mechanic, that
  273. DracoCron: An unbreakable antidiviniation ritual is just as bad.
  274. Archmage DB: divination was so godly in 3.5 that it needed the nerf
  275. DracoCron: She can possibly introduce a new artifact that can pierce it.
  276. Archmage DB: Eye of Warning also sounds an alarm if a scrying sensor in the area is detected
  277. Archmage DB: even if it can't destroy it
  278. DracoCron: Then tell the player that he should have researched the elves better before screwing around with them this much.
  279. Archmage DB: He did his research, how could he have discovered a fact that didn't exist until she needed a deus ex machina?
  280. Archmage DB: It's a retroactive thing
  281. DracoCron: Tell him that he missed it.
  282. Archmage DB: No matter how high his roll was?
  283. Archmage DB: Then it was impossible for him to "research them better"
  284. DracoCron: They wouldn't be likely to advertise it.
  285. DracoCron: And that's not actually necessary.
  286. DracoCron: All that's necessary is for him to think that.
  287. Archmage DB: an Artifact that powerful would have been used before
  288. DracoCron: Not if it had a high cost.
  289. Archmage DB: So, you recommend LYING to players about DM Fiat?
  290. DracoCron: Yes.
  291. DracoCron: Lying doesn't itself cause harm, and therefore isn't intrinsically evil.
  292. Archmage DB: to punish people the DM doesn't like for damaging their utopian Elvish society?
  293. DracoCron: It's better than openly using DM fiat.
  294. DracoCron: And is one possible compromise.
  295. Archmage DB: It's still DM fiat
  296. DracoCron: DM fiat only matters if the players can see it.
  297. DracoCron: If they don't see it, it doesn't do any harm.
  298. Archmage DB: I disagree, it's being used to push ONE person's agenda
  299. DracoCron: Thus, he'll accept that he failed logically.
  300. DracoCron: And will probably take it reasonably well.
  301. Archmage DB: Not if he knows that the DM was fiating, which he likely will
  302. DracoCron: He'll be frustrated, but thems the breaks.
  303. Archmage DB: No offense, but this isn't exactly a subtle method you're pushing
  304. DracoCron: Although the DM should have planned for this ahead of time, I admit.
  305. DracoCron: But she was new and naive.
  306. DracoCron: Damage control is the best she can do.
  307. DracoCron: I will take her lesson to heart.
  308. Archmage DB: I rather pity the people in your game
  309. DracoCron: Eh. I doubt they'll try to wipe out the Forsaken anyway.
  310. DracoCron: They're neutral mercenaries; there's no money in that sort of thing.
  311. Archmage DB: brb bathroom
  312. DracoCron: Strange bathroom.
  313. Archmage DB: back
  314. Archmage DB: just posting snippets to /tg/
  315. DracoCron: Generally, it's considered good manners to ask the other person first.
  316. Archmage DB: You're a woman, since when has your opinion mattered?
  317. DracoCron: Considering how many people on /tg/ complain about it, a fair amount of time.
  318. Archmage DB: Wellp, I've got enough material here to pass on to Elfslayer next time he arrives, and enough to post for lulz.  Thanks.
  319. DracoCron: And so I learn my own lesson.
  320. Archmage DB: That DM fiat and dishonesty never pays?
  321. DracoCron: No one on /tg/ is trustworthy or good.
  322. Archmage DB: You foremost
  323. DracoCron: Because my intent is to let everyone have fun.
  324. DracoCron: However, I must admit I'm surprised at your proclivities.
  325. DracoCron: But I shouldn't be.
  326. Archmage DB: "Street gos both ways. If the DM is feeling tormented because the players killed a specific NPC, turned a quote "drama point" from a minor and trite GBLT thread into a multiregional/multiracial one of honor and treachery, and are basically doing what they were fucking told to do in the first place by ignoring the "This is your Deus-Ex-Machina speaking, your plot objective has changed, all red targets are now green and vice versa," then, welp, maybe it's the DM that needs to leave and not the "problem" player."
  327. Archmage DB: Best response
  328. DracoCron: My way would still allow for it to stay that way.
  329. Archmage DB: No, it wouldn't
  330. DracoCron: Yes it would.
  331. DracoCron: The players wouldn't necessarily be on the winning side, but it'd stay that way.
  332. Archmage DB: Your way is a dishonest, childish fit of DM Fiat interfering with good roleplaying purely because you don't like one of the sides involved.
  333. DracoCron: Dishonest and childish?
  334. DracoCron: Hello, pot.
  335. Archmage DB: and I guarantee that no group worth its dice would condescend to play with someone who whipped up the "artifact out of nowhere"
  336. Archmage DB: I never said I wouldn't post this to /tg/
  337. Archmage DB: :3
  338. DracoCron: I didn't say "lying and childish."
  339. Archmage DB: Splitting hairs won't help you.  I'm just busy pastebinning the rest of this, adding some highlight here and there.
  340. DracoCron: I hardly see how you can call me childish.
  341. Archmage DB: Because your whole logic behind this is "Elves are nice and so should be plot protected"
  342. DracoCron: No, my logic is "don't fuck over your DM when she's new and inexperienced, then yank her into a rules-lawyer oriented nightmare because she's nice enough to let your ass get away with a fucking hint of this."
  343. Archmage DB: "nice" enough?  No, there's nothing nice about it.  She tried to fiat it away in thread 2, and was stamped down for it
  344. Archmage DB: plus, she was essentially forcing them to play through Avatar
  345. Archmage DB: Look, /tg/ is clearly the wrong board for you, why don't you leave now?
  346. DracoCron: No, I think not.
  347. DracoCron: I like this board.
  348. DracoCron: And I'm not going to let you bully me off of it.
  349. Archmage DB: You like this board, but don't see the appeal of a Miles Quaritch derailing this Avatar of a game?
  350. DracoCron: I can see it.
  351. DracoCron: But I'm not letting it stop me from helping the people I can.
  352. Archmage DB: Good luck with that. ;3
  353. DracoCron: Why, exactly, did you do this?
  354. Archmage DB: You're hypocritical, and I find that repugnant
  355. DracoCron: I don't believe that I'm hypocritical.
  356. DracoCron: What about me suggests this?
  357. Archmage DB: Read above.  You recommend lying to the players, yet have a fit when the players are dishonest
  358. DracoCron: When did I mention minding that the players were dishonest?
  359. DracoCron: Although technically, lying to the DM should be grounds for a beating.
  360. Archmage DB: And you just contradicted yourself again
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