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Morality

a guest Jun 30th, 2013 1,547 Never
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  5. » Forum » Morality of Pedophilia » Points to make in debate when arguing pro adult/child sex.
  6. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago Athletic
  7.  
  8. I have done my fair share of internet debating with antis and fence sitters in various places. These people always have the same points they bring up that are often illogical, hypocritical, or just don't make much sense. Let me post a few of those and show how they are not logical.
  9.  
  10. "Children don't enjoy it and the adult is doing it for their own pleasure!"
  11.  
  12. This is a very common one. First off children to receive sexual pleasure. This is scientifically documented for any aged human. Stimulation of the genitals feels good, from newborns to 90 year old people. Of course the stimulation must be age appropriate. You don't go trying to penetrate a three year old with your penis. You lick, caress, and maybe lightly penetrate with something small and soft.
  13.  
  14. Now the adult doing it for their own pleasure. This is now a pedophile issue but an issue with anyone of any age. Many guys go to bars or clubs to pick up girls just to fuck for themselves. This is because of our anti-sex society. I prefer to make my little girl friend feel amazing. If we raise our children to seek mutually pleasurable sexual experiences it would change for the better.
  15.  
  16. "Yes children do enjoy sexual stimulation, but they can not consent! They do not have the mental ability to consent so it is always abuse! They can not truly understand all of the dangers!"
  17.  
  18. This is thrown out there when you back people in a corner. Most people can not logically say children don't enjoy sexual stimulation. People pull this one out when I talk about licking a little girls vagina.
  19.  
  20. This point does not make sense, because if you apply it logically than adults should never interact with children in any way that might include harm because a child can not give meaningful consent.
  21.  
  22. I love my beach example.
  23.  
  24. Children love the beach, they love to swim, play in the sand, boogie board, etc. Children will say yes to going to the beach if you ask them. However the child will often be unaware of the numerous dangers (some life threatening). Marine life (shark attacks, jellyfish), riptides, hell even broken glass in the sand (I had many stitches from that), getting over heated, sunburn.
  25.  
  26. However most people allow the children to consent to a fun day at the beach... why? Because the adult who is partaking in beach time with them is responsible for protecting the child from the dangers. Just because the child said yes doesn't mean the adult is absolved of responsibility.
  27.  
  28. The same exact thing would happen with sexual relationships.
  29.  
  30. If I ask my little girl friend if I can lick her vagina and she can suck my penis she may say yes because she likes to feel good and she likes making me feel good. However I am responsible for anything possibly negative. STDs, physical pain, pregnancy, etc... I am responsible, even if she says yes.
  31.  
  32. "Let's say you are right and this is true, you can not allow such interactions because there will be sadistic pedophiles who will hurt children and make them say they enjoyed it. It will be easy since it is legal!"
  33.  
  34. First off hurting the child, threatening, blackmailing, forcing, etc will all still be illegal. Second... the current climate is what makes it so easy for real child abusers to do what they do. Children are shamed, they are nervous, scared, to ever talk about anything sexual. This atmosphere is ripe for true abusers. A society where children are encouraged to be sexual and sexually opened makes it much easier for them to come forward about being truly abused. That, and the recovery process will be easier since there will be much less social stigma.
  35.  
  36. Quite frankly there is no legitimate argument against adult/child sexual relationships as long as the child is having fun.
  37.  
  38. Please if you have an anti-debating point you want dismantled, bring it here and I will try my best.
  39. reply
  40. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  41.  
  42. I think you meant to say that:
  43.  
  44.     Quite frankly there exists SIMPLY no legitimate argument against adult/child sexual relationships as long as the child is having fun.
  45.  
  46. I would also like to offer my dismantling services should Athletic have any difficulties with any points brought to him here in this thread.
  47.  
  48. It will be a cinch seeing as truth, history, academia, good intention and logic are on pedos side and pedos only need to respond to mere hate, illogical and reflex emotions, hyperbole, demonstrable lies, simple naivety and the human face of the results of sensationalism.
  49.  
  50. BRING IT ON !!
  51. reply
  52. ≡ 1mo, 3d ago Athletic
  53.  
  54. Yes, that would be a better way to say it, thanks.
  55. reply
  56. ≡ 1w, 1d ago anonymous
  57.  
  58. a ver que dia empezamos a decirlo en programas de debate en TV. la sexualidad existe desde que se nace.
  59. reply
  60. message by ImGonnaKIllU   (marked as spam)
  61. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago Realist
  62.  
  63. Adult-child sex versus a day at the beach? Really?
  64.  
  65. 1) The chance that something will go horribly wrong while at the beach, or several years later, is very slim. The chance for negative consequences as a result of adult-child sex is much greater in comparison. And even greater yet once the child matures.
  66.  
  67. 2) People have been known to turn to drugs or cutting, suffer depression, and even commit suicide as a result of being sexually abused as a child. Do you honestly believe that beach-goers experience the same problems? lol.
  68.  
  69. It appears that any child who spends time with you has a greater chance of being eaten by a shark by not going to the beach. roll eyes
  70. reply
  71. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  72.  
  73. Realist, you are not being a realist. People have been known to turn to drugs or cutting and have all those other things by having their parents do various things.
  74.  
  75. AND, most of those people have had others brainwash them with the 'You poor poor thing, act damaged to make us feel better for having pedosexuality illegal!'
  76.  
  77. Serious on the above.
  78. reply
  79. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  80.  
  81. The so-called 'realist' has produced this most realistic of comments
  82.  
  83.     The chance that something will go horribly wrong while at the beach, or several years later, is very slim. The chance for negative consequences as a result of adult-child sex is much greater in comparison.
  84.  
  85. Firstly I must point out the obvious... that almost every child that goes to the beach will be sunburned (harmed) to some degree as well as developing some form of 'rash' from the salt water and microscopic organic critters. No one can dispute that. That gives the lie to 'Realist's' supposed statement of fact that the chances of a child getting harmed at the beach is "very slim" because it happens EVERY TIME.
  86.  
  87. But, there is no need to accept what I say, lets see what academia, the actual qualified psychologists and scientific research have to say with regards to the true likelihood of harm to children through adult child intimacy
  88.  
  89. Established research that investigates CSA as a clinical / legal / traumatic phenomenon, using clinically / legally / trauma biased samples is often generalised to whole populations. This page addresses the need to pool nonclinical, nonlegal and nontraumatic sampled research articles on the prevalence of harm.
  90. Outcomes
  91.  
  92. **Rind, Bruce, Tromovitch, Philip, and Bauserman, Robert (1998). "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples," Psychological Bulletin, 124(1), 22-53**
  93.     "Many lay persons and professionals believe that child sexual abuse (CSA) causes intense harm, regardless of gender, pervasively in the general population. The authors examined this belief by reviewing 59 studies based on college samples. Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE. Self-reported reactions to and effects from CSA indicated that negative effects were neither pervasive nor typically intense, and that men reacted much less negatively than women. The college data were completely consistent with data from national samples. [...]
  94.     Fifteen studies presented data on participants' retrospectively recalled immediate reactions to their CSA experiences that were classifiable as positive, neutral, or negative. Overall, 72% of female experiences, but only 33% of male experiences, were reported to have been negative at the time. On the other hand, 37% of male experiences, but only 11% of female experiences, were reported as positive. [...] Seven female and three male samples contained reports of positive, neutral, and negative current reflections (i.e., current feelings) about CSA experiences. Results were similar to retrospectively recalled immediate reactions, with 59% of 514 female experiences being reported as negative compared with 26% of 118 male experiences. Conversely, 42% of current reflections of male experiences, but only 16% of female experiences, were reported as positive. [...] The overall picture that emerges from these self-reports is that (a) the vast majority of both men and women reported no negative sexual effects from their CSA experiences; (b) lasting general negative effects were uncommon for men and somewhat more common for women, although still comprising only a minority; and (c) temporary negative effects were more common, reported by a minority of men and a minority to a majority of women."
  95.  
  96. **Oellerich, T.D. (1998). "Identifying and Dealing with 'Child Savers'", IPT Journal.**
  97.     "Kilpatrick (1992) concluded that early child and adolescent sexual experiences, unless there was force or high pressure involved, had no influence on later adult functioning regardless of the type of partner involved (i.e., relative or non-relative) or the age differences. She reported that, when she discussed her findings with professionals, they closed their ears to them. They were most closed to those findings that indicated positive reactions to these early sexual experiences and to those findings that indicated that incestuous experiences did not cause irreparable harm."
  98.  
  99. **Arreola, Sonya; Neilands, Torsten; Pollack, Lance; Paul, Jay; Catania, Joseph (2008). "Childhood Sexual Experiences and Adult Health Sequelae Among Gay and Bisexual Men: Defining Childhood Sexual Abuse," Journal of Sex Research, 45(3), pp. 246 - 252.**
  100.     "Childhood sexual experience [minor-minor and adult-minor was included in this definition] was composed of three categories: None (no sex before age 18); consensual only (sex before age 18 that was NOT considered by the respondent to have been forced); and forced (having been "forced or frightened by someone into doing something sexually" at least once before age 18). [...] Interestingly, the forced sex group and the no sex group were statistically indistinguishable in their level of well-being, while the consensual sex group was significantly more likely to have a higher level of well-being than either of the other two groups. This suggests that consensual sex before 18 years of age may have a positive effect, perhaps as an adaptive milestone of adolescent sexual development. The emphasis in these data on pathology does not permit further exploration of this possibility. [...] There were no differences in rates of depression and suicidal ideation between the consensual- and no-sex groups. The consensual- and forced-sex groups had higher rates of substance use and transmission risk than the no-sex group. The forced-sex group, however, had significantly higher rates of frequent drug use and high-risk sex than the consensual group. Findings suggest that forced CSEs result in a higher-risk profile than consensual or no childhood sexual experiences, the kind of risk pattern differs between forced and consensual childhood sexual experiences, and the underlying mechanisms that maintain risk patterns may vary. It is important to clarify risk patterns and mechanisms that maintain them differentially for forced and consensual sex groups so that interventions may be tailored to the specific trajectories related to each experience."
  101.  
  102. **Rind, Bruce (1995). "An Analysis of Human Sexuality Textbook Coverage of the Psychological Correlates of Adult - Nonadult Sex", Journal of Sex Research, 32(3), p. 219-233**
  103.     "First, researchers using college samples who have investigated consequences of adult-nonadult sex have generally found either no effects on psychological adjustment attributable to this experience (e.g., Cole, 1987; Fromuth, 1986; Harter, Alexander, & Neimeyer, 1988; Hatfield, 1987; Higgins & McCabe, 1994; Hrabowy & Allgeier, 1987; Pallotta, 1991; Predieri, 1991; Silliman, 1993; Zetzer, 1990), or only a few effects out of many measures--effects that have been small in terms of effect size (e.g., Alexander & Lupfer, 1987; Bergdahl, 1982; Edwards & Alexander, 1992; Fromuth & Burkhart, 1987; Haggard & Emery, 1989; Sarbo, 1984; White & Strange, 1993). Thus, college students who have experienced sex with adults when they were younger do not, as a group, exhibit the kind of maladjustment that has been frequently reported in clinical studies (for reviews of clinical studies, see, e.g., Beitchman, Zucker, Hood, DaCosta, & Akman, 1991; Beitchman et al., 1992)."
  104.  
  105. ** Stanley, Jessica L., Bartholomew, Kim, and Oram, Doug (2004). "Gay and Bisexual Men's Age-Discrepant Childhood Sexual Experiences ", The Journal of Sex Research, 41(4), pp. 381-389**
  106. "This study examined childhood sexual abuse (CSA) in gay and bisexual men. We compared the conventional definition of CSA based on age difference with a modified definition of CSA based on perception to evaluate which definition best accounted for problems in adjustment. The sample consisted of 192 gay and bisexual men recruited from a randomly selected community sample. Men's descriptions of their CSA experiences were coded from taped interviews. Fifty men (26%) reported sexual experiences before age 17 with someone at least 5 years older, constituting CSA according to the age-based definition. Of these men, 24 (49%) perceived their sexual experiences as negative, coercive, and/or abusive and thus were categorized as perception-based CSA. Participants with perception-based CSA experiences reported higher levels of maladjustment than non-CSA participants. Participants with age-based CSA experiences who perceived their sexual experience as non-negative, noncoercive, and nonabusive were similar to non-CSA participants in their levels of adjustment. These findings suggest that a perception-based CSA definition more accurately represents harmful CSA experiences in gay and bisexual men than the conventional age-based definition. [...] no differences in adjustment were found between participants with CSE histories and participants who did not report an age-based CSA experience. Additionally, the perception-based definition predicted maladjustment in four areas of interpersonal difficulties over and above that predicted by the age-based criterion. [...] empirical evidence indicates that age-discrepant childhood sexual experiences are not necessarily harmful (e.g., Constantine, 1981; Rind et al., 1998; Steever et al., 2001). Therefore, it must be acknowledged that a violation of social norms, which is the basis for the age-based definition, does not necessarily result in harm. A definition of CSA based on social norm violations is further problematic for same-sex relations because same-sex sexual activity is considered a social norm violation by many. Some in the gay community believe that some sexual experiences involving mature adolescents and older partners may be beneficial (e.g., Sandfort, 1983; Savin
  107. reply
  108. ≡ 1mo, 3d ago Athletic
  109.  
  110. You are arguing your point with the idea that adult/child sexual contact is inherently harmful by default. This has been dis-proven scientifically (and in my own experience as well). But, for fun let me ruin your two points.
  111.  
  112. Horribly wrong, yes I agree it is slim. Same for a consensual sexual adult/child relationship. Harm in general, a child is more likely to be harmed at the beach. From cuts, to sunburn, to rashes, to being over heated, to being dehydrated, chapped lips, irritated eyes... this doesn't mean going to the beach is bad though.
  113.  
  114. People have been known to turn to drugs, cutting, depression, etc. when bad things happen to them in their lives and they can not handle it, or do not have good support from others. Taking a child who had a fun consensual experience and then telling them someone they loved only wanted to hurt them makes this happen. Telling them they were damaged and something horrible was done to them, then drilling this in their heads for years does that to them. Growing up in a society that demonizes sexual fun and pleasure but promoted needless violence and excessive judgement on others does that to them.
  115. reply
  116. ≡ 1mo, 3d ago Realist
  117.  
  118. Dis-proven scientifically? Link your sources, because I'm certainly not going to take your word for it.
  119.  
  120. Your beach example compares minor injuries to major injuries. Sure, a kid could be eaten by a shark or drown in the water, but those worst-case beach events are extremely rare. In adult-child sex, the worst-case events are quite common. That is what makes your example fall flat.
  121.  
  122. And we're talking about long-term effects from adult-child sex here, not other "bad things that happen to them", (quoting you).
  123.  
  124. Like it or not, the social stigmas of casual sex, adult-child sex, incest and sex with an older person do exist. They are a part of real life. A child who engages in sex with an adult will eventually be faced with the problem of coping with these stigmas. If you truly love children, you would not coerce them into a situation which carries the strong probability that they will experience negative emotional consequences.
  125.  
  126. You can say that society is WRONG WRONG WRONG, or you can blame it all on the evil feminists, or controlling governments. However, the facts remain. The general consensus of people around the world is that adult-child sex is quite likely to harm the child. That's why it's a stigma. That's why there are laws. That's why most people hate pedophiles. Face these facts or not - your choice.
  127. reply
  128. ≡ 1mo, 3d ago Athletic
  129.  
  130. You been ignoring the studies the one anon has been linking to over and over again. However I find it funny you demand I show a source, while you have yet to provide one source that shows that consensual sexual contact between an adult and child is inherently harmful. I will save you time. It doesn't exist. All the studies that exist that show harm tell two things... one, that abusive sexual contact is harmful. Unconsented, forced, coerced, blackmail... all those negative actions bring about harm.
  131.  
  132. Ooooh now you are blaming me for the damage the social stigma causes? I am well aware of the social stigma and I am actively trying to fight it. Unlike you, who seem to use it as an excuse to keep something that is normally loving and fun illegal and hated. The general consensus that is currently held was once not the commonly held belief. As little as 60 years ago, before America went and bullied other societies and hell even in America... adult/child sexual contact was pretty normal. The recent radical third wave of feminism as well as the religious people angry at the sexual revolution made sure that changed.
  133.  
  134. I hate people like you. You want children to be harmed. That's the problem, if a child says "Hey I enjoyed it, I had fun, I love him" that is not good for you. You want her to hate it, and hate the person who brought her pleasure. You are nothing more than a bigot and completely irrational and illogical. You use popular opinion as if that means you are correct. Revolutions start with people who challenge the status quo, not people who say "well it is a commonly held belief so I better accept it".
  135.  
  136. Just to rub it in, I do sexual things with my little girl friend who is 9 years old, and we have been since she was 7. You say "coerce" go fuck yourself. It's funny to note it all started because she was asking me to look at her vagina, then asked me to touch it. It makes me feel so good just last weekend she was in my arms, telling me how she wished she could live with me. Now society wants to tell me I am a monster and an abuser, but all that matters is girls and girls like her love me and love spending time with me, whether that time is sexual or not because I care about them and they care about me.
  137.  
  138. You want her to be harmed, you want her to be mentally fucked up in the head. You can't take it that things are not actually the way you believe. You hide behind the opinions of others because you cannot think for yourself. You are weak and you are far from a realist. If people did what you suggest humans would have gone no where. There was once a stigma to treating blacks like people, it was once illegal and punishable by death to have homosexual sex. It takes brave revolutionaries to change that. You are merely one of those that people will look back on and say "I can't believe people thought like that, it is so ignorant and wrong."
  139.  
  140. So how will you respond to this? You can't, the evidence is everywhere, on this very website, in scientific studies, in people's personal experiences, in history. I may not be alive to see paedosexuals and children allowed to embrace consensual sexual relations but I'll be damned if I don't help work toward it in any way I can. One of those ways is shutting ignorant bigots like you up.
  141. reply
  142. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Realist
  143.  
  144. 1) I neither read nor respond to anonymous posts. In effect, I have disabled posts from anonymous posters.
  145.  
  146. 2) Athletic, you started this thread, not me, and not the anonymous posters to whom you refer. You need to back up your claim that consensual child adult sex is not harmful to the child, while at the same time ignoring damage from STD's, surprise pregnancies, coping with existing social stigma and eventual negative behavioral consequences.
  147.  
  148. 3) The only way you can shut me up is to prove your case. You prefer instead to employ disinformation and misdirection such as walls of text, invalid comparisons, finger-pointing, and blanket statements such as "the truth is out there".
  149.  
  150. In summary, this thread is a failure. You continually fail to respond to meaningful, rational criticism. It's not helping your cause - it's hurting it.
  151. reply
  152. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Athletic
  153.  
  154. I have already spoken to you about number two on other occasions and you willingly refuse to listen. This is not me failing to provide evidence but you ignoring evidence given to you and then saying "provide evidence" I refuse to play this circle game with you. Oh and for the record here is what the anon guy was posting:
  155.  
  156. Rind, Bruce (2001). "Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men: An Empirical Examination of Psychological Correlates in a Nonclinical Sample", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 30(4), 345-368
  157. "Over the last quarter century the incest model, with its image of helpless victims exploited and traumatized by powerful perpetrators, has come to dominate perceptions of virtually all forms of adult-minor sex. Thus, even willing sexual relations between gay or bisexual adolescent boys and adult men, which differ from father-daughter incest in many important ways, are generally seen by the lay public and professionals as traumatizing and psychologically injurious. This study assessed this common perception by examining a nonclinical, mostly college sample of gay and bisexual men. Of the 129 men in the study, 26 were identified as having had age-discrepant sexual relations (ADSRs) as adolescents between 12 and 17 years of age with adult males. Men with ADSR experiences were as well adjusted as controls in terms of self-esteem and having achieved a positive sexual identity. Reactions to the ADSRs were predominantly positive, and most ADSRs were willingly engaged in. Younger adolescents were just as willing and reacted at least as positively as older adolescents. Data on sexual identity development indicated that ADSRs played no role in creating same-sex sexual interests, contrary to the "seduction" hypothesis. Findings were inconsistent with the incest model. The incest model has come to act as a procrustean bed, narrowly dictating how adult-minor sexual relations quite different from incest are perceived."
  158.  
  159. Baurmann, Michael C. (1983). Sexuality, Violence and Psychological After-Effects: A Longitudinal Study of Cases of Sexual Assault which were Reported to the Police.
  160. "The victimological analysis was based on a 4-year questionnaire study (1969 - 1972) of virtually all sexual victims known to the police in the German state of Lower Saxony (n = 8058). [...] To recapitulate, only half of the declared victims (51.8%) of indecent assault suffered from injuries or even severe trauma. The other 48.2% had no problems in connection with the experience. In most of these cases the sexual offense was relatively superficial and harmless and/or the "victim" consented to the offense (page 459). [...] Homosexual contacts played no important statistical or criminological role in this study. On the one hand, they composed only 10-15% of the cases, and on the other, the sexual contacts were described by the victims themselves as "harmless", almost exclusively without the use of violence by the suspect (page 287), and as a result, none of the male victims questioned felt themselves to have been injured. In addition no injury could be determined in these cases with the help of test procedures."
  161.  
  162. Steever, E. E., Follette, V. M., & Naugle, A. E. (2001). "The correlates of male adults' perceptions of their early sexual experiences," Journal of Traumatic Stress, 14(1), 189–204.
  163. "Three groups of participants were assessed for this study: (1) men who report no history of childhood sexual experiences or report a history of consensual childhood and adolescent sexual experiences with peers (less than five years age difference; NSA), (2) men who do not identify themselves as survivors of childhood sexual abuse, but report a history of childhood or adolescent (before age eighteen) sexual experiences that were coercive/forced in nature, occurred with an individual at least 5 years older than the subject, or were incestuous in nature (involved an older family member), thus satisfying typical research definitions of child sexual abuse (ESE), and (3) men who report a history of childhood sexual experiences that they label as sexual abuse (CSA). [...] Analysis of variance between groups revealed that Group CSA (M = .71, SD = .42) reported significantly more distress than Group NSA (M = .40, SD = .36) or Group ESE did (M = .46, SD = .22). [...] Consistent with our hypotheses, participants in Group CSA were twice as likely to have participated in psychotherapy as participants in Group ESE. In fact, more than half of Group CSA reported that they had sought mental health treatment. [...] Participants in Group ESE, who by standard research criteria would be classified as "abused" did not seek out mental health counseling to a statistically greater degree than participants in Group NSA. Because the participants in Group ESE did not report higher levels of psychological distress than those in Group NSA, it seems likely that these men did not seek treatment because of lack of distress."
  164.  
  165. Finkelhor, David (1990). "Early and long-term effects of child sexual abuse: An update," Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 21(5), pp. 325-330.
  166.  
  167. Using mostly clinical samples: "Almost every study of the impact of sexual abuse has found a substantial group of victims with little or no symptomatology. Runyon (personal communication, September 23, 1988) found one quarter to one third of the victims without symptoms on the study's major clinician-rated measure of trauma. Mannarino and Cohen (1986) found 31% to be symptom-free. Tong et al. (1987) noted 36% of the children within the normal range on the Child Behavior Checklist. Conte and Schuerman (1987), using an extensive list of symptoms that included such minor items as “fearful of abuse stimuli” or such global items as “emotional upset,” found that 21% of abused children had no symptoms whatsoever (see also Sirles, Smith, & Kusama, 1989). [...] Research shows that such asymptomatic children are more likely to have been abused for a shorter period of time, without force and violence or penetration, by someone who is not a father figure and to have gotten support from parents in the context of a relatively well-functioning family (Browne & Finkelhor, 1986)."
  168.  
  169. Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997). "A meta-analytic review of findings from national samples on psychological correlates of child sexual abuse," Journal of Sex Research, 34, 237-255.
  170.  
  171. "The self-reported effects data contradict the conclusions or implications presented in previous literature reviews that harmful effects stemming from CSA are pervasive and intense in the population of persons with this experience. Baker and Duncan (1985) found that, although some respondents reported permanent harm stemming from their CSA experiences (4% of males and 13% of females), the overwhelming majority did not (96% of males and 87% of females). Severe or intense harm would be expected to linger into adulthood, but this did not occur for most respondents in this national sample, according to their self-reports, contradicting the conclusion or implication of intense harm stemming from CSA in the typical case. Meta-analyses of CSA-adjustment relations from the five national studies that reported results of adjustment measures revealed a consistent pattern: SA respondents were less well adjusted than control respondents. Importantly, however, the size of this difference (i.e., effect size) was consistently small in the case of both males and females. The unbiased effect size estimate for males and females combined was ru = .08, which indicates that CSA, assuming that it was responsible for the adjustment difference between SA and control respondents, did not produce intense problems on average."
  172. Misuse of the "incest model"
  173.  
  174. Rind, Bruce (2001). "Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men: An Empirical Examination of Psychological Correlates in a Nonclinical Sample", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 30(4), 345-368.
  175. "The discrepancy between findings in the current study and expectations based on the incest model is so great as to warrant further consideration. Summit (1983) wrote an influential paper based on clinical incest cases, in which he described the "child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome." He cautioned that his syndrome "should not be viewed as a procrustean bed which defines and dictates a narrow perception of something as complex as child sexual abuse" (p. 180). Despite this warning, in the very next paragraph, even though his syndrome was built almost entirely on cases of father-daughter incest, he asserted that "male victims are at least as frequent, [and] just as helpless" (p. 180). This sort of extrapolation has become commonplace since the early 1980s. Sexual phenomena that have only age-discrepancy in common with incest are reshaped in a n (continued)
  176. reply
  177. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Realist
  178.  
  179. I'm so impressed that you can copy/paste. However, I'm thinking you didn't read, and certainly gave no thought to any of the so-called evidence you've quoted.
  180.  
  181. Rind,Bruce (2001).
  182. The non-clinical study discussed focused upon sexual identity issues in males 12-17 years of age who had sex with an "adult". Besides the fact that the study could very well include relations between a 17 and a 21 year old, (adult-child sex?) the study does not highlight any of the points from your opening statement, and in fact, appears to support statements I've made concerning negative emotional consequences after incest. Fail.
  183.  
  184. Michael Baurmann (1983)
  185. This study represents data which is upwards to 35 years old. The data is no longer relevant. Fail.
  186.  
  187. Steever, E. E., etc (2001)
  188. Another study which supports my statements. Participants who were "coerced" (quoted from your post) into adult-child sex were twice as likely to have participated in psychotherapy than those who simply had sex at a young age with a partner who was also young. More than half of that group sought out mental health treatment. Wow. Fail.
  189.  
  190. Finkelhor, David (1990)
  191. Another set of facts which supports my position. 21% of "abused" children (quoted from what you posted) had no symptoms. Of course, this means that a whopping 79% of abused children did indeed have problems due to adult-child sex. Fail!
  192.  
  193. Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997)
  194. While this appears to be a reasonable study supportive of your views at face value, The final quote from this text includes "did not produce intense problems on average." So, also on average, adult-child sex DID produce intense problems. Not quite the fail as the original texts, but close enough. Fail.
  195.  
  196. Rind, Bruce (2001)
  197. I just have to pull a quote out of this one. "Despite this warning, in the very next paragraph, even though his syndrome was built almost entirely on cases of father-daughter incest, he asserted that "male victims are at least as frequent, [and] just as helpless" (p. 180)." Fail.
  198.  
  199. I'm done analyzing your so-called proof. You position has been found to be lacking both basis and merit, and is not unlike a house of cards in a hurricane.
  200.  
  201. And on number two... As I said before, adult responsibility is not a substitute for child consent. I think you're smarter than all this, but you really haven't thought it all through. If you want me to help you organize a clear and concise position, just ask.
  202. reply
  203. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago anonymous
  204.  
  205. http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476
  206.  
  207.     Reaction to our Psychological Bulletin article ranged from faulty attacks on its methodology and analyses by critics to interest and even praise from supporters who saw a hopeful message in the findings -- namely, that children and adolescents experiencing CSA might be very resilient and need not be seen as "damaged goods" or doomed to experience maladjustment and pathology (Lamb, 1999; Sullivan, 1999; Tavris, 1999). To our knowledge, however, no supporter or neutral observer, let alone critic, commented on the scientific soundness or advances of the article. But this soundness and these advances are important, because they add deeper layers to the problem of governmental condemnation and what to do about it.
  208.  
  209.     Why the Attacks? Science Versus Orthodoxy
  210.  
  211.     If our report in Psychological Bulletin was sound and defensible science, then the motivation for the critics' attacks must be something other than genuine disagreement about research methods and scientific validity. To examine alternative motivations, consider reactions to three different research studies.
  212.  
  213.     In the first, the authors examined the psychological and social adjustment of children being treated for cancer (Noll et al., 1999). Like our meta-analyses, the authors noted problems with previous research in their area, such as examining child cancer patients in clinical rather than natural settings. This previous research generally found the expected result of poor adjustment. Noll et al. examined their subjects in natural settings by getting ratings from peers and teachers and tested subjects for symptoms of emotional disturbance. Compared to healthy children, the cancer patients were equally well adjusted emotionally, psychologically, and socially. The New York Times reported this story as showing that children being treated for cancer are far more resilient than most adults and doctors would expect (Brody, 1999). There were no reports of parents or health care providers protesting the research findings or media commentators or politicians claiming that the findings had to be wrong and were the consequence of researcher incompetence or mischief. Clearly, the findings were accepted by all as good news.
  214.  
  215.     In a second example, in an ABC television special entitled Junk Science (aired January 9, 1997), host John Stossel interviewed Emory University psychologist Claire Coles regarding "crack babies" (infants born to mothers addicted to crack cocaine). As Stossel noted, in the 1980s crack babies were ubiquitously seen as permanently damaged. Coles was one of the first to question the conventional wisdom, pointing to interpreter biases in previous research, in which consistent confounds of alcohol and poverty were ignored in favor of blaming cocaine for all negative correlates. Her own research contradicted popular beliefs (Coles, 1993). Stossel noted, "when Coles dared to suggest that crack babies were not permanently damaged, she was attacked viciously by politicians, called incompetent, accused of making data up or believing in drug abuse." Stossel asked her, "People confuse morality and science?" Coles answered, "Well, they did. Cocaine is bad, therefore the effects must be bad." The contrast is striking between the acceptance of children's resilience to cancer and the rejection of their resilience to prenatal crack cocaine exposure.
  216.  
  217.     A third example is our own Psychological Bulletin meta-analysis. Our basic findings were that college students with a history of CSA were only slightly less well adjusted than controls, and that this difference might not even be causal in many cases because of confounding with family environment. As in the previous two examples, we found that children are much more resilient than most adults in our society believed. Unlike the first example, but very much like the second, our findings were vehemently attacked. In this section we will attempt to answer why, as the answer is relevant to future controversies in social science.
  218.  
  219.     No one has a stake, either economic or moral, in seeing children with cancer as necessarily being psychologically and socially maladjusted. Cancer is bad and treatment for cancer is unpleasant and noxious, even more so if the patient is a child, but these facts do not lead people to insist that psychological arid social effects must be bad. We may expect them to be bad, but are relieved to find otherwise.
  220.  
  221.     In the case of illegal drugs, however, there is an enormous stake, both economic and moral, in believing in the ubiquitous and farreaching harmful impact of these substances. Over the past 30 years, a federally sponsored industry has grown up around treating, punishing, and preventing illicit drug use. Until 1967 the federal government had a negligible role in drug enforcement. By the Reagan administration the federal drug enforcement budget rose to $1 billion annually, and by the end of the 1990s to $16 billion annually. The campaign against drugs became ideological, using war metaphors, invoking hyperbole, and painting all illicit drug use as equivalent in ability to harm. A conservatively based "prison industrial complex" evolved as a result of the war on drugs, with the U.S. prison population growing dramatically starting in the mid-1970s, doubling in the 1980s and again in the 1990s; meanwhile, a liberally based expansion of therapeutic ser- vices occurred in response to demand for treatment and social control of drug abuse (Samoff, 2000). As Stossel observed in Junk Science, the belief that crack produced severe and lasting harm "met the needs of both liberals and conservatives. Conservatives wanted to demonize cocaine users. Liberals wanted more money for their programs." Thus, Coles' research was seen by conservatives and liberals alike as threatening important values and interests-sending a "pro-drug" message and undermining law and order in the case of conservatives and weakening the expansion of social services in the case of liberals.
  222.  
  223.     Economic and moral incentives have also been central to the campaign against CSA (Gardner, 1993; Jenkins, 1998: Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Okarni,1990; Samoff, 2001). The campaign against rape became a core feminist issue in the early 1970s. Haying made progress in this area, feminists moved on to the problem of incest, characterizing it with the vocabulary and concepts created for describing rape (Jenkins, 1998). Consequently, incest came to be seen as a common rather than a rare event which represented an abuse of power and the subjugation of females, producing trauma and lasting psychological damage (Okarni, 1990). Concern over incest soon expanded to sex in general between men and minor females, which was characterized using the incest and rape models (Finkelhor, 1984). This movement against CSA became a moral crusade by the mid-1970s. representing not just a campaign against particular acts but against what was perceived as an oppressive patriarchy (Jenkins. 1998; Okami. 1990; Sarnoff. 2001). By the 1980s, all forms of adult- minor sex were included in the campaign, and all were understood through the incest and rape models of power abuse, traumagenesis, and lasting psychological damage.
  224.  
  225.     Besides the feminist campaign, two other key factors contributed to the anti-C SA movement. One was the 1974 Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act. also called the Mondale Act after one of its chief sponsors (Gardner, 1993). Initially, the Mondale Act was intended to encourage state programs primarily combating physical abuse and emotional neglect. Within a few years, however, its focus shifted largely to CSA. The Mondale Act strengthened the growing child abuse establishment, which included social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, and law enforcement officials (Gardner. 1993). Amendments throughout the 1970s further strengthened the child abuse establishment, creating a large, self-perpetuating industry sanctioned and funded by government (Gardner, 1993; Goodyear-Smith, 1993; Jenkins, 1998; Sarnoff, 2001). Feminist ideology regarding rape and incest became incorporated into child abuse professionals, theory and practice regarding CSA (Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Okami, 1990).
  226.  
  227.     The other contributing factor was a moral backlash driven the by social and religious conservatives in reaction to the loosening of traditional morality in the areas of divorce, abortion, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, pornography, and drugs that had occurred during the 1960s and 1970s. For these groups, campaigning against sex crime was a convenient device to attempt to counter the slide to "decadence" (Jenkins, 1998). Social and religious conservatives joined anti-pornography and anti-abuse feminists in campaigning against sex crime, updating their rhetoric to match that of these "victimological" feminists as a tactic to achieve their goals (Sarnoff, 2001).
  228.  
  229.     Thus, three major forces came together to produce a new the orthodoxy regarding CSA -- feminists, child protection professionals, and moral conservatives. And it was a new orthodoxy, not simply evolved thinking and understanding, that replaced generations of denial and ignorance. Jenkins (1998) showed that concern about CSA had three peaks during the 20th century: the first from the turn of the century into the 1920s, the second between 1937 and 1957, and the third beginning in 1976 and continuing to this day. Like the third peak, the first two were fueled by a coalition of activists, including feminists, therapists, psychiatrists, criminal justice officials, conservatives, and moral traditionalists. Jenkins documented that these peaks of concern were orthodoxies, consisting of "social facts so obvious that it seems incredible that they could ever have been ignored or doubted yet which, in historical perspective, appear temporary and contingent" (1998. p. 1 ). He described the stereotypical characteristics of the current orthodoxy regarding CSA: i
  230.  
  231. reply
  232. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago anonymous
  233.  
  234.     ...yet which, in historical perspective, appear temporary and contingent" (1998. p. 1 ). He described the stereotypical characteristics of the current orthodoxy regarding CSA: it often escalates to violence or murder; it invariably causes lasting damage to the children involved; a battery of psychological explanations exists to account for any failure by the victim to perceive harm; and it produces a cycle of abuse, that is, CSA is so disturbing that the victim usually repeats the act against children of the next generation.
  235.  
  236.     Jenkins documented the common occurrence of diametrically opposite statements regarding CSA made by leading experts from the 1950s to the 1970s, a period that represented a reaction against widespread hyperbole during the preceding peak, to show how recently and quickly the current orthodoxy had become established and popularized. He characterized these orthodoxies regarding CSA as panics, borrowing from moral panic theory, formulated in the 1970s by British sociologists such as Stanley Cohen and Stuart Hall. These sociologists argued that a wave of irrational public fear can be said to exist when the official reaction to a person, groups of persons or series of events is out of all proportion to the actual threat offered, when "experts" perceive the threat in all but identical terms, and appear to talk "with one voice" of rates, diagnoses, prognoses and solutions, when the media representations universally stress "sudden and dramatic" increases (in numbers involved or events) and "novelty," above and beyond that which a sober, realistic appraisal could sustain. (Jenkins, 1998, p. 6, cited in Hall et al., 1978, p. 16)
  237.  
  238.     Jenkins noted that "panic" implies not just fear but fear that is wildly exaggerated and wrongly directed. He argued that the ideas developed during panics "develop an organic life of their own, as one set of outlandish charges becomes the foundation for still more bizarre claims, and activists compete for the attention of a jaded mass media demanding ever-higher levels of shock value" (1998, p. 7). In response, lawmakers produce "panic legislation" rather than implement policy that realistically deals with the problem. Jenkins argued that, according to these criteria, CSA repeatedly produced panic responses during the past century or so.
  239.  
  240.     Outgrowths of the current panic include the satanic ritual abuse accusations in day-care centers that proliferated throughout the United States in the 1980s and the recovered memory movement that followed. [*2]
  241.  
  242. [*2] The "recovered memory movement" is a term frequently employed by critics of the use of techniques such as hypnosis, "truth serum," and "body memories" by therapists to elicit supposedly repressed memories of sexual abuse that are seen as the underlying cause of current psychological probems.
  243.  
  244.     As the critiques by Jenkins and others (e.g., Frontline, 1991, 1993, 1995a, 1995b, 1998; Goodyear-Smith, 1993; Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Pendergrast, 1996) imply, these events reveal not merely a system run amok, but the end-product of a system built on a economic interdependency among various special interest groups fueled by deeply rooted ideology. For example, the day-care trials sometimes turned into the most expensive in their states' history (such as the McMartin case in California and Little Rascals in North Carolina). No expense was spared -- and many parties thus benefited financially -- because the cases were more than just about convicting "evil perpetrators." They were important in validating the ideology that created the cases in the first place (Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Sarnoff, 2001).
  245.  
  246.     The same analysis can be applied to the recovered memory movement, which became a billion dollar industry by the end of the 1980s for therapists, lawyers, and others, but whose foundation was ideological rather than scientific, as documented by Frontline (1995a) and others (e.g., Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Pendergrast, 1996).
  247.  
  248.     With this background in mind, it becomes clearer why our article in Psychological Bulletin was so strongly attacked. It directly challenged fundamental principles of the new CSA orthodoxy by concluding that CSA does not in fact invariably possess the properties that virtually all have come to attribute to it, in all its forms, across all ages, and for both sexes -- for example, it inevitably produces severe and lasting trauma.
  249.  
  250.     The article could not easily be ignored because of the influence of Psychological Bulletin in the psychology field. In contrast, our previous meta-analysis was published in The Journal of Sex Research -- not an APA journal -- so presumably that article's findings could be safely ignored by critics rather than disputed. The critics who attacked our article came from the very same constituencies that Jenkins (1998) and others (e.g., Nathan & Snedeker, 1995) have identified as creating and benefiting economically or ideologically from the new orthodoxy.
  251.  
  252.     Thus, organizations such as NARTH and the Leadership Council had an interest in attacking the article because, being primarily composed of professional therapists, their theories of abnormal behavior and their therapeutic assumptions are based on assumptions of the orthodoxy. Moral traditionalists who joined in the attack, such as Dr. Laura and the FRC, abhor homosexuality on moral grounds and see "seduction" as producing more homosexuality or pedophilia.
  253.  
  254.     Clearly, children's resilience is not always welcome. When industries depend economically or ideologically on the harmfulness of early experiences, evidence for resilience may be more of a threat than a relief. Economic and ideological interests have shaped current thinking on CSA over the last 25 years and have become integral to treatment of it as a social problem. This clarifies the poor scientific quality and essentially moral nature of the attacks against our meta-analysis. The intensity of the attacks reflects the strength and scope of the economic and ideological interests (Jenkins, 1998; Nathan & Snedeker, 1995). Now, it is important to consider possible responses, so that social science research in the future is not harmed by similar assaults from powerful special-interest groups opposing it for political reasons disguised as scientific critique.
  255.  
  256. reply
  257. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago anonymous
  258.  
  259. Hey Athletic !
  260.  
  261. Repost this gold information above using your nic please so this 'thing' cant claim any reason not to read it and address it.
  262. reply
  263. ≡ 1mo, 18h ago Athletic
  264.  
  265. He just chose to ignore it and then claim I am unprepared and illogical lol
  266. reply
  267. ≡ 3w, 6d ago faeaweds
  268.  
  269. even if you did not have the proofs it's more than easy to demonstrate vie other branches of science.
  270. First, psychology is easy, is you know it, you know traumas have a cause, that "trauma" left by having sex "at an inappropriate age" is obviously not by the act but as you said, by the action of victimizing the children and making them think they were harmed by that. This can be proved by either rising a child in an isolated environment, teaching her about this and also teaching her not to tell others because of the reasons, so that she will be mentally prepared for that situations (so that she would react against those ideas) or by looking how people wont react to stuff that causes harm to them until someone tells them about it, like in politics, and how every politician talks all technical about stuff almost no one understand, saying it's all good, but then comes another that says the opposite and says it's bad for the country (and "supposedly" your wallet too) and everyone get mad at him. No one has any evidence that it was caused by it, and none gave and argument to support their points but some will feel attacked and some will not. The point is, stuff happened, but some felt damaged by it, and some did not. How can you explain that? simple, as i said, people wont know something is harmful until they are told so, same with good stuff, you wont know it's good until told so, like vegetables, kids dont like them because of their taste, but if you force them until they get used to the flavour they wont have a problem later on. If you were to teach kids that sex is good and enjoyable and how to take all the safety measures to avoid STDs and possible problems, it could be pretty much a recreational activity like playing video games or any table game in a kid's room..
  271.  
  272. The problem as always is Ad Populi, people believe what is right and wrong based on what "others" say, but if you have the media you can make it look like "others" think in X way, hence influencing others to think the way you want. Same happened with gays, black and wieches, gay was the bible as moral ruler and with witches the same, and niggas was because of again anotherfalse stereotype, now this is to "protect" the children, this as you can see was to always have something to keep people distracted while they did whatever they wanted. As far as i've seen, the more you keep people discussing about senseless topic the worse they do at logic and rational thinking. Mostly because to make sense of something senseless the least you have to have is logic, so they get trained to not-think and instead just follow what they feel is right, that again ad populi, so basically if you get a mass media you get a remote control for idiots (99% of the world)
  273.  
  274. So in order to, as said above, keep your child to you and avoid her stabbing you in the back, you have to teach her logic and all of this so they wont be able to brainwash her to the level she will think she was raped by you and that she enjoyed it because she was tricked into enjoying it (as if that was ever posible...) like vicky.
  275. Summarizing, if you love your loli, and want to fuck you loli, you have to be smarter than the enemy and teach your loli to be smart from the very begining, aka, no barbies, no girl toy (stereotypes), as many genderless activities as posible and encourage her to play with the boys instead, no religion and tell her why they are all fake with proofs, etc. This means breaking from the social inertia so that she can think for herself instead of being thought y others.
  276. reply
  277. ≡ 3w, 6d ago Athletic
  278.  
  279. Kids like sexual contact, yet society hates that. Kids hate getting spanked or hit, yet society supports that. Welcome to our violently leaning society. We love watching grown men beat each other for a football, but if Janet Jackson shows a boob, everyone loses their minds.
  280.  
  281. I agree, teach your lil lover to be smart, logical, to think for herself... keep in touch with her, let her make decisions, to not force, threaten, blackmail, or trick her. Things will be much better and she will be smart and sexually confident.
  282. reply
  283. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago Athletic
  284.  
  285. Reaction to our Psychological Bulletin article ranged from faulty attacks on its methodology and analyses by critics to interest and even praise from supporters who saw a hopeful message in the findings -- namely, that children and adolescents experiencing CSA might be very resilient and need not be seen as "damaged goods" or doomed to experience maladjustment and pathology (Lamb, 1999; Sullivan, 1999; Tavris, 1999). To our knowledge, however, no supporter or neutral observer, let alone critic, commented on the scientific soundness or advances of the article. But this soundness and these advances are important, because they add deeper layers to the problem of governmental condemnation and what to do about it.
  286.  
  287. Why the Attacks? Science Versus Orthodoxy
  288.  
  289. If our report in Psychological Bulletin was sound and defensible science, then the motivation for the critics' attacks must be something other than genuine disagreement about research methods and scientific validity. To examine alternative motivations, consider reactions to three different research studies.
  290.  
  291. In the first, the authors examined the psychological and social adjustment of children being treated for cancer (Noll et al., 1999). Like our meta-analyses, the authors noted problems with previous research in their area, such as examining child cancer patients in clinical rather than natural settings. This previous research generally found the expected result of poor adjustment. Noll et al. examined their subjects in natural settings by getting ratings from peers and teachers and tested subjects for symptoms of emotional disturbance. Compared to healthy children, the cancer patients were equally well adjusted emotionally, psychologically, and socially. The New York Times reported this story as showing that children being treated for cancer are far more resilient than most adults and doctors would expect (Brody, 1999). There were no reports of parents or health care providers protesting the research findings or media commentators or politicians claiming that the findings had to be wrong and were the consequence of researcher incompetence or mischief. Clearly, the findings were accepted by all as good news.
  292.  
  293. In a second example, in an ABC television special entitled Junk Science (aired January 9, 1997), host John Stossel interviewed Emory University psychologist Claire Coles regarding "crack babies" (infants born to mothers addicted to crack cocaine). As Stossel noted, in the 1980s crack babies were ubiquitously seen as permanently damaged. Coles was one of the first to question the conventional wisdom, pointing to interpreter biases in previous research, in which consistent confounds of alcohol and poverty were ignored in favor of blaming cocaine for all negative correlates. Her own research contradicted popular beliefs (Coles, 1993). Stossel noted, "when Coles dared to suggest that crack babies were not permanently damaged, she was attacked viciously by politicians, called incompetent, accused of making data up or believing in drug abuse." Stossel asked her, "People confuse morality and science?" Coles answered, "Well, they did. Cocaine is bad, therefore the effects must be bad." The contrast is striking between the acceptance of children's resilience to cancer and the rejection of their resilience to prenatal crack cocaine exposure.
  294.  
  295. A third example is our own Psychological Bulletin meta-analysis. Our basic findings were that college students with a history of CSA were only slightly less well adjusted than controls, and that this difference might not even be causal in many cases because of confounding with family environment. As in the previous two examples, we found that children are much more resilient than most adults in our society believed. Unlike the first example, but very much like the second, our findings were vehemently attacked. In this section we will attempt to answer why, as the answer is relevant to future controversies in social science.
  296.  
  297. No one has a stake, either economic or moral, in seeing children with cancer as necessarily being psychologically and socially maladjusted. Cancer is bad and treatment for cancer is unpleasant and noxious, even more so if the patient is a child, but these facts do not lead people to insist that psychological arid social effects must be bad. We may expect them to be bad, but are relieved to find otherwise.
  298.  
  299. In the case of illegal drugs, however, there is an enormous stake, both economic and moral, in believing in the ubiquitous and farreaching harmful impact of these substances. Over the past 30 years, a federally sponsored industry has grown up around treating, punishing, and preventing illicit drug use. Until 1967 the federal government had a negligible role in drug enforcement. By the Reagan administration the federal drug enforcement budget rose to $1 billion annually, and by the end of the 1990s to $16 billion annually. The campaign against drugs became ideological, using war metaphors, invoking hyperbole, and painting all illicit drug use as equivalent in ability to harm. A conservatively based "prison industrial complex" evolved as a result of the war on drugs, with the U.S. prison population growing dramatically starting in the mid-1970s, doubling in the 1980s and again in the 1990s; meanwhile, a liberally based expansion of therapeutic ser- vices occurred in response to demand for treatment and social control of drug abuse (Samoff, 2000). As Stossel observed in Junk Science, the belief that crack produced severe and lasting harm "met the needs of both liberals and conservatives. Conservatives wanted to demonize cocaine users. Liberals wanted more money for their programs." Thus, Coles' research was seen by conservatives and liberals alike as threatening important values and interests-sending a "pro-drug" message and undermining law and order in the case of conservatives and weakening the expansion of social services in the case of liberals.
  300.  
  301. Economic and moral incentives have also been central to the campaign against CSA (Gardner, 1993; Jenkins, 1998: Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Okarni,1990; Samoff, 2001). The campaign against rape became a core feminist issue in the early 1970s. Haying made progress in this area, feminists moved on to the problem of incest, characterizing it with the vocabulary and concepts created for describing rape (Jenkins, 1998). Consequently, incest came to be seen as a common rather than a rare event which represented an abuse of power and the subjugation of females, producing trauma and lasting psychological damage (Okarni, 1990). Concern over incest soon expanded to sex in general between men and minor females, which was characterized using the incest and rape models (Finkelhor, 1984). This movement against CSA became a moral crusade by the mid-1970s. representing not just a campaign against particular acts but against what was perceived as an oppressive patriarchy (Jenkins. 1998; Okami. 1990; Sarnoff. 2001). By the 1980s, all forms of adult- minor sex were included in the campaign, and all were understood through the incest and rape models of power abuse, traumagenesis, and lasting psychological damage.
  302.  
  303. Besides the feminist campaign, two other key factors contributed to the anti-C SA movement. One was the 1974 Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act. also called the Mondale Act after one of its chief sponsors (Gardner, 1993). Initially, the Mondale Act was intended to encourage state programs primarily combating physical abuse and emotional neglect. Within a few years, however, its focus shifted largely to CSA. The Mondale Act strengthened the growing child abuse establishment, which included social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, and law enforcement officials (Gardner. 1993). Amendments throughout the 1970s further strengthened the child abuse establishment, creating a large, self-perpetuating industry sanctioned and funded by government (Gardner, 1993; Goodyear-Smith, 1993; Jenkins, 1998; Sarnoff, 2001). Feminist ideology regarding rape and incest became incorporated into child abuse professionals, theory and practice regarding CSA (Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Okami, 1990).
  304.  
  305. The other contributing factor was a moral backlash driven the by social and religious conservatives in reaction to the loosening of traditional morality in the areas of divorce, abortion, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, pornography, and drugs that had occurred during the 1960s and 1970s. For these groups, campaigning against sex crime was a convenient device to attempt to counter the slide to "decadence" (Jenkins, 1998). Social and religious conservatives joined anti-pornography and anti-abuse feminists in campaigning against sex crime, updating their rhetoric to match that of these "victimological" feminists as a tactic to achieve their goals (Sarnoff, 2001).
  306.  
  307. Thus, three major forces came together to produce a new the orthodoxy regarding CSA -- feminists, child protection professionals, and moral conservatives. And it was a new orthodoxy, not simply evolved thinking and understanding, that replaced generations of denial and ignorance. Jenkins (1998) showed that concern about CSA had three peaks during the 20th century: the first from the turn of the century into the 1920s, the second between 1937 and 1957, and the third beginning in 1976 and continuing to this day. Like the third peak, the first two were fueled by a coalition of activists, including feminists, therapists, psychiatrists, criminal justice officials, conservatives, and moral traditionalists. Jenkins documented that these peaks of concern were orthodoxies, consisting of "social facts so obvious that it seems incredible that they could ever have been ignored or doubted yet which, in historical perspective, appear temporary and contingent" (1998. p. 1 ). He described the stereotypical characteristics of the current orthodoxy regarding CSA: i
  308.  
  309. reply
  310. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago Athletic
  311.  
  312. ...yet which, in historical perspective, appear temporary and contingent" (1998. p. 1 ). He described the stereotypical characteristics of the current orthodoxy regarding CSA: it often escalates to violence or murder; it invariably causes lasting damage to the children involved; a battery of psychological explanations exists to account for any failure by the victim to perceive harm; and it produces a cycle of abuse, that is, CSA is so disturbing that the victim usually repeats the act against children of the next generation.
  313.  
  314. Jenkins documented the common occurrence of diametrically opposite statements regarding CSA made by leading experts from the 1950s to the 1970s, a period that represented a reaction against widespread hyperbole during the preceding peak, to show how recently and quickly the current orthodoxy had become established and popularized. He characterized these orthodoxies regarding CSA as panics, borrowing from moral panic theory, formulated in the 1970s by British sociologists such as Stanley Cohen and Stuart Hall. These sociologists argued that a wave of irrational public fear can be said to exist when the official reaction to a person, groups of persons or series of events is out of all proportion to the actual threat offered, when "experts" perceive the threat in all but identical terms, and appear to talk "with one voice" of rates, diagnoses, prognoses and solutions, when the media representations universally stress "sudden and dramatic" increases (in numbers involved or events) and "novelty," above and beyond that which a sober, realistic appraisal could sustain. (Jenkins, 1998, p. 6, cited in Hall et al., 1978, p. 16)
  315.  
  316. Jenkins noted that "panic" implies not just fear but fear that is wildly exaggerated and wrongly directed. He argued that the ideas developed during panics "develop an organic life of their own, as one set of outlandish charges becomes the foundation for still more bizarre claims, and activists compete for the attention of a jaded mass media demanding ever-higher levels of shock value" (1998, p. 7). In response, lawmakers produce "panic legislation" rather than implement policy that realistically deals with the problem. Jenkins argued that, according to these criteria, CSA repeatedly produced panic responses during the past century or so.
  317.  
  318. Outgrowths of the current panic include the satanic ritual abuse accusations in day-care centers that proliferated throughout the United States in the 1980s and the recovered memory movement that followed. [*2]
  319.  
  320. [*2] The "recovered memory movement" is a term frequently employed by critics of the use of techniques such as hypnosis, "truth serum," and "body memories" by therapists to elicit supposedly repressed memories of sexual abuse that are seen as the underlying cause of current psychological probems.
  321.  
  322. As the critiques by Jenkins and others (e.g., Frontline, 1991, 1993, 1995a, 1995b, 1998; Goodyear-Smith, 1993; Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Pendergrast, 1996) imply, these events reveal not merely a system run amok, but the end-product of a system built on a economic interdependency among various special interest groups fueled by deeply rooted ideology. For example, the day-care trials sometimes turned into the most expensive in their states' history (such as the McMartin case in California and Little Rascals in North Carolina). No expense was spared -- and many parties thus benefited financially -- because the cases were more than just about convicting "evil perpetrators." They were important in validating the ideology that created the cases in the first place (Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Sarnoff, 2001).
  323.  
  324. The same analysis can be applied to the recovered memory movement, which became a billion dollar industry by the end of the 1980s for therapists, lawyers, and others, but whose foundation was ideological rather than scientific, as documented by Frontline (1995a) and others (e.g., Nathan & Snedeker, 1995; Pendergrast, 1996).
  325.  
  326. With this background in mind, it becomes clearer why our article in Psychological Bulletin was so strongly attacked. It directly challenged fundamental principles of the new CSA orthodoxy by concluding that CSA does not in fact invariably possess the properties that virtually all have come to attribute to it, in all its forms, across all ages, and for both sexes -- for example, it inevitably produces severe and lasting trauma.
  327.  
  328. The article could not easily be ignored because of the influence of Psychological Bulletin in the psychology field. In contrast, our previous meta-analysis was published in The Journal of Sex Research -- not an APA journal -- so presumably that article's findings could be safely ignored by critics rather than disputed. The critics who attacked our article came from the very same constituencies that Jenkins (1998) and others (e.g., Nathan & Snedeker, 1995) have identified as creating and benefiting economically or ideologically from the new orthodoxy.
  329.  
  330. Thus, organizations such as NARTH and the Leadership Council had an interest in attacking the article because, being primarily composed of professional therapists, their theories of abnormal behavior and their therapeutic assumptions are based on assumptions of the orthodoxy. Moral traditionalists who joined in the attack, such as Dr. Laura and the FRC, abhor homosexuality on moral grounds and see "seduction" as producing more homosexuality or pedophilia.
  331.  
  332. Clearly, children's resilience is not always welcome. When industries depend economically or ideologically on the harmfulness of early experiences, evidence for resilience may be more of a threat than a relief. Economic and ideological interests have shaped current thinking on CSA over the last 25 years and have become integral to treatment of it as a social problem. This clarifies the poor scientific quality and essentially moral nature of the attacks against our meta-analysis. The intensity of the attacks reflects the strength and scope of the economic and ideological interests (Jenkins, 1998; Nathan & Snedeker, 1995). Now, it is important to consider possible responses, so that social science research in the future is not harmed by similar assaults from powerful special-interest groups opposing it for political reasons disguised as scientific critique.
  333.  
  334. reply
  335. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago Athletic
  336.  
  337. On number two my point was the child consents. Then you say "they don't fully understand the consequences" and that is where adult responsibility comes in. Are you intentionally twisting my words? Consent is the most important factor. Many little girls will consent to having their vaginas licked because it is literally a sensation of pure pleasure.
  338.  
  339. I provided studies that showed the flaws of the CSA damage claims. I provided more. Even in our society of "OMG the worst thing ever!!!" They show that, that assertion is not true. Also note that every single study documenting damage never differentiates between abuse/consent and never controls for cultural attitudes. Find me any that do. You can't and you also have yet to provide any study to back up your claims.
  340. reply
  341. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago Realist
  342.  
  343. It's a matter of just what they are consenting to. Just because a child likes to be diddled doesn't mean she wants to be diddled with a running chainsaw. And, does a mouse consent to the mousetrap or to the cheese he wants to eat?
  344.  
  345. Your continued reliance upon your flawed "the adult's responsibility is the child's consent" theory is pitiful, and proven by me to be illogical several times over.
  346.  
  347. You didn't provide any studies. You copy/pasted what anonymous users have posted. If you can't stand up for yourself and present a logical mature argument in your own words, then please ask the admin to delete your thread, because it's beginning to make you look uninformed and unprepared.
  348. reply
  349. ≡ 1mo, 22h ago anonymous
  350.  
  351. I enjoyed the sex I had as a child. I'm glad about what happened and I'm equally glad I never encountered a piece of shit like you. What the fuck is wrong with you? Sadists are evil and worthless, they should be expelled from all pedo communities and left to be sadistic to themselves.
  352. reply
  353. ≡ 1mo, 18h ago Athletic
  354.  
  355. .... are you being fucking serious? You just compared rubbing a vagina or licking it to bring pleasure to being gutted by a chainsaw. How am I supposed to take you seriously? It is both the child's consent and then the adult's responsibility like ALL adult/child interactions. I also provided studies what the fuck?
  356.  
  357. I think we are done here. You have done nothing to refute my points, provided no studies to counter mine, and keep repeating the same talking points.
  358.  
  359. Pay attention child lovers, this is the point where the anti has been backed in a corner and just says things that literally make no sense.
  360.  
  361. Notice how he has never actually refuted my points, he has brought up ridiculous comparisons, he has demanded studies but provided none, he was given studies but ignores them because they do not say what he wants.
  362.  
  363. This is the point when you let it go with this person. The problem is most antis aren't actually interested in debate, they just want to convince the pedophile he is evil and children are damaged by sexual activities themselves, not societal reactions or cultural attitudes.
  364. reply
  365. ≡ 1mo, 6h ago Realist
  366.  
  367. Nothing new here...
  368.  
  369. You compared adult-child sex to a day at the beach. If you can use comparisons, why can't I? Oh, and cursing is a poor tactic.
  370.  
  371. I think you are done here. I've refuted all of your points.
  372.  
  373. Who said I was an anti? Name-calling is another poor tactic.
  374.  
  375. Again, I've refuted all of your points. You copy/pasted a list of studies from other posters but didn't bother to first read or understand the content. I then provided point-by-point
  376. arguments to those examples and described how most of them actually support my position. Don't believe me? Scroll back and read for yourself.
  377.  
  378. Again, who said I was an anti? Your cursing and name-calling makes me think you're getting angry. You better have the confidence and patience to back up your claims if you're going to start threads like this.
  379. reply
  380. ≡ 1mo, 5h ago Athletic
  381.  
  382. Next please.
  383. reply
  384. ≡ 4w, 1d ago No_A_Surrealist
  385.  
  386.     I then provided point-by-point
  387.     arguments to those examples and described how most of them actually support my position. Don't believe me? Scroll back and read for yourself.
  388.  
  389. Did that, here's what I found.
  390. Your responses here to these studies are absolutely misconceived and deceptive. You have consistently ignored the strong (main) points of the studies as presented in the summaries and instead quoted any lesser statistic in a manner that appears you intended to convey it as being definitive of the study as a whole... did you not think that anyone would check up on your comments by referencing what you had said back to the actual text of the studies summaries ? and were you relying on the reader to be too lazy to check for themselves also ?
  391.  
  392. Here is a good example
  393.  
  394. You responded to the study Athletic provided authored by Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997) in the following terms :
  395.  
  396.     "While this appears to be a reasonable study supportive of your views at face value, The final quote from this text includes "did not produce intense problems on average." So, also on average, adult-child sex DID produce intense problems. Not quite the fail as the original texts, but close enough. Fail."
  397.  
  398. The summary you based your immediately above comment on literally reads :
  399.  
  400.     Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997) "The self-reported effects data contradict the conclusions or implications presented in previous literature reviews that harmful effects stemming from CSA are pervasive and intense in the population of persons with this experience. Baker and Duncan (1985) found that, although some respondents reported permanent harm stemming from their CSA experiences (4% of males and 13% of females), the overwhelming majority did not (96% of males and 87% of females). Severe or intense harm would be expected to linger into adulthood, but this did not occur for most respondents in this national sample, according to their self-reports, contradicting the conclusion or implication of intense harm stemming from CSA in the typical case. Meta-analyses of CSA-adjustment relations from the five national studies that reported results of adjustment measures revealed a consistent pattern: SA respondents were less well adjusted than control respondents. Importantly, however, the size of this difference (i.e., effect size) was consistently small in the case of both males and females. The unbiased effect size estimate for males and females combined was ru = .08, which indicates that CSA, assuming that it was responsible for the adjustment difference between SA and control respondents, did not produce intense problems on average."
  401.  
  402. You have ignored the following specific statements in the summary :
  403.  
  404.     The self-reported effects data contradict the conclusions or implications presented in previous literature reviews that harmful effects stemming from CSA are pervasive and intense in the population of persons with this experience
  405.  
  406. You choose to ignore that this study used responses from study participants that were self reported as apposed to biased data derived of the fact that participants in CSA studies have always otherwise been involved because they were respondents to advertisements asking for 'survivors' of CSA to come forward and participate in the survey - meaning the survey respondents are entering the survey with the belief that they are 'victims' already and the studies are therefore fundamentally biased from the outset.
  407.  
  408. You then ignore the statement that the results of this uniquely self-reported study (the overall finding of the study mind you)
  409.  
  410. "contradicts the conclusions or implications presented in previous literature reviews that harmful effects stemming from CSA are pervasive and intense in the population of persons with this experience"
  411.  
  412. Is it not a revelation that here is a scientific study that completely contradicts the entrenched beliefs about the effects of CSA... yet your response makes no mention of it and you call it a 'fail'
  413.  
  414.     Baker and Duncan (1985) found that, although some respondents reported permanent harm stemming from their CSA experiences (4% of males and 13% of females), the overwhelming majority did not (96% of males and 87% of females)
  415.  
  416. You have ignored here the most direct of statements possible that conveys that :
  417.  
  418. "the overwhelming majority (96% of males and 87% of females) did not report permanent harm stemming from their CSA experiences"
  419.  
  420. So, 96% of males and 87% of females self-report no permanent harm (reported when they were college aged students) from being involved in what society has been trained to call 'child sexual abuse' ! and you simply completely fail to even acknowledge this fact in your response despite the GLARING discrepancy that you are full well aware of between the child protection industrial complex's statistics claiming that 100% of SCA involves permanent severe damage to the child and the results of this actual scientific study finding that only 4% of males and 13% of females reported any level of harm from their CSA experience !
  421. Kind of an important one to skip over don't you think ?
  422.  
  423.     Meta-analyses of CSA-adjustment relations from the five national studies that reported results of adjustment measures revealed a consistent pattern: SA respondents were less well adjusted than control respondents. Importantly, however, the size of this difference (i.e., effect size) was consistently small in the case of both males and females. The unbiased effect size estimate for males and females combined was ru = .08, which indicates that CSA, assuming that it was responsible for the adjustment difference between SA and control respondents, did not produce intense problems on average.
  424.  
  425. This is the only portion of the study that you respond to and in doing so you have misrepresented what the summary is saying.
  426. You have erroneously given the impression that the statement "did not produce intense problems on average" was in reference to the major finding of the entire study. That is simply not the case... the statement "did not produce intense problems on average" read in proper context refers only to a single 'metric' analyzed as a part of the study of 'adjustment', not 'harm from CSA' and in any case had you of responded to it in proper context, you would have had to acknowledge that as the authors state "the size of this difference (i.e., effect size) was consistently small in the case of both males and females"
  427.  
  428. So, basically, you tried to pull a 'fast one' here by misrepresenting entirely the small part that you even acknowledged , while ignoring the main findings of the study that were solidly against your position.
  429.  
  430. Next we need to point out something else that has been posted for your response and that you have chosen not to respond or acknowledge whatsoever.
  431.  
  432. Athletic posted Bruce Rind & Philip Tromovitch's paper entitled :
  433.  
  434. "Anatomy of the congressional condemnation of a scientific article and reflections on remedies for future ideological attacks"
  435.  
  436. The full text can be found here : http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476
  437.  
  438. The paper was written in response to congress officially condemning the Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997) study that you misrepresented which I have written about how you did so above.
  439.  
  440. Here is the abstract
  441.  
  442.     In July 1999, the U.S. Congress passed a formal resolution condemning our article on child sexual abuse (CSA), an article in which we concluded, based on 59 meta-analytically reviewed studies using college samples, that the assumed harmfulness of CSA had been overstated (Rind, Tromovitch, & Bauserman, 1998). The condemnation followed months of attacks by social conservatives and by mental health professionals specializing either in curing homosexuality or in treating patients by inducing them to recover memories of CSA.
  443.  
  444.     In this article, we detail the chronology behind the attacks. Then we discuss the science behind our meta-analysis, showing that the attacks were specious and that our study employed sound science, advancing the field considerably by close attention to issues of external, internal, and construct validity, as well as precision and objectivity.
  445.  
  446.     Next, we discuss orthodoxies and moral panics more generally, arguing that our article was attacked as vehemently as it was because it collided with a powerful, but socially constructed orthodoxy that has evolved over the last quarter century.
  447.  
  448.     Finally, we offer reflections and recommendations for fellow researchers, lest this kind of event recur. We focus on the need for greater cognizance of historical attacks on science to anticipate and deflate future attacks. We argue that our research should stand as another reminder among many that sacred-cow issues do not belong in science. We discuss nonscientific advocacy in the social sciences and the need to recognize and counter it. We discuss the failure of psychology to adequately deal with the study of human sexuality, a problem that enabled the faulty attacks on our article, and we suggest directions for becoming more scientific in this area. And last, we raise the issue of how professional organizations might deal more effectively with such attacks in the future.
  449.  
  450. I request of you to go read the full text of the above abstract found here : http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476 and respond in this thread as to whether you accept or reject the findings of the meta analysis and why ?
  451.  
  452. I ask that because out of all the scientific studies performed that are supportive of the pedophile position, this study is both the most in-depth/scientifically correct undertaken as well as producing findings that are the most at odds with the commonly held belief that adult/child sexual interactions are inherently ALWAYS harmful.
  453.  
  454. It is in large part a study where college students who had been involved
  455. reply
  456. ≡ 4w, 1d ago No_A_Surrealist
  457.  
  458. CONTINUED....
  459.  
  460. who had been involved in adult/child intimacy when they were children were asked to 'self-report' their belief in regards to what lasting 'harm' that the incident caused them. The overwhelming majority (96% of males and 87% of females) did not report permanent harm stemming from their experiences.
  461.  
  462. If you do not respond as requested, I will take it to be the case that you haven't because you cant because there is no aspect that exists surrounding the study that would allow for you to make a legitimate criticism without doing what you have done several times recently which is to make unrelated and misconceived arguments composed of mere assertions without factual support. Basically, you seem to not be able to stay focused on the issue being discussed and you respond with unrelated material, ignoring what was being discussed and that you were obliged to respond to directly as a participant in the argument contented . (Notice how we keep providing facts and citations, links and quotes etc)
  463.  
  464. We shall await your response... lets hope it is on topic and has some form of logical backup, not just statements of your opinion without any logical constructs supported by factual examples etc in support of why it is you can feel justified to claim that your opinion is the correct one.
  465. reply
  466. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Athletic
  467.  
  468. claps amazing job, you did essentially what I was a bit too lazy to do. Great analysis and break down.
  469. reply
  470. ≡ 2w, 15h ago anonymous
  471.  
  472. Over two weeks has passed and realist has not responded to the above challenge of
  473.  
  474.     I request of you to go read the full text of the above abstract found here : http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476 and respond in this thread as to whether you accept or reject the findings of the meta analysis and why ?
  475.  
  476. I take it to be the case that he hasn't responded because he can't respond because there is no aspect that exists surrounding the study that would allow for him to make a legitimate criticism without doing what he has done several times recently which is to make unrelated and misconceived arguments composed of mere assertions without any form of factual support.
  477.  
  478. Therefore Realist, by not being able to refute any single aspect of it, obviously must reluctantly agree with the findings of the meta analysis which I again link to now http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476
  479. reply
  480. ≡ 2w, 1d ago anonymous
  481.  
  482. Where did he mention anything analogous to being diddled with a chainsaw ?
  483.  
  484. Your just making up arguments "at will" regardless of whether they are a deduction of the previous posters words or not.
  485.  
  486. I think you must be relying on the reader not to notice such fabrications, but people are smarter than you think obviously !
  487. reply
  488. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Athletic
  489.  
  490. (continued)
  491. are reshaped in a narrow, rigid manner to fit the demands of the incest model. Media commentators conclude that willing sexual relations between adolescent boys and unrelated men are invariably profoundly damaging (e.g., Philadelphia Inquirer, September 13, 1984, p. 22A). Professionals reject or distort data regarding these relations that are inconsistent with the incest stereotype, reaching instead the obligatory conclusion of pervasive harm (e.g., Bartholow et at., 1994; Masters et at., 1985). A 1993 case in London, Ontario, illustrates paradigmatically the procrustean influence of the incest model when applied too broadly. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) documented on its premier informational show IDEAS (1994, 1995, 1999) what it termed the biggest sex scandal in North America. About 60 men sexually involved with adolescent boys were arrested in the midst of a "moral, panic ... generated by the police, with the help of therapists and social workers, and ... fueled by the media" (IDEAS, 1994, p. 29). CBC interviews with the boys indicated that they generally were gay or bisexual, were "sexually active teenagers who were having sex for fun or for profit" (IDEAS, 1994, p. 31 ), engaged willingly, had reached Canada's age of consent of 14 when the sex occurred, and were treated well by the men. For example, one teen commented:
  492.  
  493. *"I knew what I was doing. ... I wanted it. ... [I]t's not a recruitment thing, it's not that you 're forced into it. ... [W]hen you're 14 and gay it's as natural to want to be with a man as it is when you're 14 and straight and want to be with a girl ... I was doing it when I was 14. I was picking up the guys. It wasn't them picking me up. And you can't be a victim unless you're forced into something." (IDEAS, 1995, pp. 55,56)" *
  494. Mainstream media
  495.  
  496. "Child Molesting: A Complex Illness" (The Washington Post, March 27, 1976)
  497. "While some children panic and others become traumatized with fear after a sexual attack, still others will see their experience as an adventure or develop a relationship with their assailant who gives them a sense of belonging or importance, [psychologist Eugene] Stammeyer said. Studies have shown some children who are victims of sexual abuse exhibit "no compelling evidence of severe emotional problems" in later life, Stammeyer said. [...] [Psychiatrist Belinda] Straight said she thought it was very important for parents of a child who is sexually molested to openly express their shock and outrage--not conceal it-- so that the child can know "this is something that should haven't happened." [Psychiatrist and criminologist Bernard] Diamond, however, disagreed, saying that although it is "extremely difficult for the public to accept," some children "couldn't care less" about a sexual assault. "It's not a meaningful experience" for some children, Diamond said. "What makes it destructive is when everyone makes a fuss over it.""
  498. reply
  499. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Athletic
  500.  
  501. Take you fingers out of your ears, open your eyes, and shut your mouth. Your argument has been thoroughly dismantled unless you can bring up a different point that I have not addressed.
  502. reply
  503. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago Athletic
  504.  
  505. Oh and for the sake of this thread, I will do number two again.
  506.  
  507. The adult is responsible like the adult is always responsible with any interaction between themselves and a child. In a car, I am responsible for the child's safety, so I must make sure they use the proper safety precautions such as car seats, seat belts, sitting in back the etc. If an adult gives a child an STD, or impregnates a young woman then they are to blame. They must accept punishment and make compensation for damages. Social stigma is NOT the fault of the pedophile. It is the fault of people like you, so I ask... how do you protect the child from this? You don't you embrace and enforce it.
  508. reply
  509. ≡ 3w, 3d ago anonymous
  510.  
  511. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. ...
  512. reply
  513. ≡ 2w, 15h ago anonymous
  514.  
  515. Realist,
  516.  
  517. 'Athletic' wrote two posts above that
  518.  
  519.     You are arguing your point with the idea that adult/child sexual contact is inherently harmful by default. This has been dis-proven scientifically
  520.  
  521. You the responded one post above with
  522.  
  523.     Dis-proven scientifically? Link your sources, because I'm certainly not going to take your word for it.
  524.  
  525. In saying that you are blatantly contradicting yourself like a complete hypocritical fool.
  526.  
  527. That is so because you yourself have agreed in other threads that any 'harm' that may occur from adult/child intimacy does not derive from the intimate 'acts' themselves as such, rather the 'harm' comes from the negative emotional effects placed on the child from the 'social stigma' that society harbors for such interactions.
  528.  
  529. If you choose to deny that you have made such statements I will happily spend the time it will take to locate and quote back here the words you used and the thread that you used them in.
  530. reply
  531. ≡ 4w, 1d ago runner
  532.  
  533. People have been known to turn to drugs or cutting, suffer depression, and even commit suicide... because they were ignored by one parent, because they didn't have friends, or sometimes for no reason at all. Yes, pre-adult sex relationships can cause mental issues, so can being spanked, and we allow that. Even people against spanking don't equate spankers with pedophiles.
  534.  
  535. Not to mention, you can't trust the opinion of the psychology profession because all their subjects are self-selected. As in, they see people who are there for help, not people living their lives normally. We probably can't know how likely it is to cause mental harm, or how much of that harm is due to societal norms. People have turned to suicide because they were gay. It's because it's not accepted, not because it's inherently harmful.
  536. reply
  537. ≡ 4w, 1d ago anonymous
  538.  
  539.     Yes, pre-adult sex relationships can cause mental issues, so can being spanked, and we allow that. Even people against spanking don't equate spankers with pedophiles
  540.  
  541. NICELY made point, very impressive !
  542.  
  543.     People have turned to suicide because they were gay. It's because it's not accepted, not because it's inherently harmful.
  544.  
  545. Same as above !
  546. I like the way you brain works, would like to see you comment more here in these forums !
  547. reply
  548. ≡ 4w, 1d ago Realist
  549.  
  550. We're not talking about being ignored or being friendless. We're talking about the effects of adult-child sex. Just because the consequences of which mirror those of other traumatic life events doesn't make them any less relevant. Your comments are incredibly disrespectful.
  551.  
  552. And, how do you know that when a gay person commits suicide, it's because being gay is not accepted? Is it so difficult to consider that maybe they became suicidal due to something else entirely? Maybe they just lost all their money in a casino? Maybe the one they love loves someone else? Maybe they were just diagnosed with a terminal disease? Maybe their father molested them as a child?
  553. reply
  554. ≡ 4w, 1d ago anonymous
  555.  
  556.     Your comments are incredibly disrespectful.
  557.  
  558. Sadist, when you earn disrespect, what happens? Get used to it.
  559. reply
  560. ≡ 4w, 12h ago anonymous
  561.  
  562. Surrealist, you responded to the post that was made by 'runner' three posts up, but you omitted to respond to the most solid point he made... the "spanking" point.
  563.  
  564. I invite you to respond to the "spanking" point !
  565.  
  566. And don't respond with something like the immediately below again
  567.  
  568.     We're not talking about being ignored or being friendless. We're talking about the effects of adult-child sex. Just because the consequences of which mirror those of other traumatic life events doesn't make them any less relevant. Your comments are incredibly disrespectful.
  569.  
  570. I'll tell you why and its rather embarrassing for you.
  571.  
  572. You started out this little sub-thread making what you conveyed as a statement of fact that
  573.  
  574.     2) People have been known to turn to drugs or cutting, suffer depression, and even commit suicide as a result of being sexually abused as a child. Do you honestly believe that beach-goers experience the same problems?
  575.  
  576. Then when 'runner' made a analogous statement of
  577.  
  578.     People have turned to suicide because they were gay. It's because it's not accepted, not because it's inherently harmful.
  579.  
  580. You shot him down in the following terms
  581.  
  582.     And, how do you know that when a gay person commits suicide, it's because being gay is not accepted? Is it so difficult to consider that maybe they became suicidal due to something else entirely? Maybe they just lost all their money in a casino? Maybe the one they love loves someone else? Maybe they were just diagnosed with a terminal disease? Maybe their father molested them as a child?
  583.  
  584. So the question that is appropriate to put to you is.... how do you (surrealist) know that people who turn to drugs or cutting, suffer depression, and even commit suicide are doing so because of being involved in an adult/child sexual relationship ? Is it so difficult to consider that maybe they became suicidal due to something else entirely? Maybe they just lost all their money in a casino? Maybe the one they love loves someone else? Maybe they were just diagnosed with a terminal disease? Maybe their father molested them as a child ?
  585.  
  586. You see, you made a fool of yourself, you made an argument, then when someone else made the same argument you shot them down. Pure hypocrisy !
  587. reply
  588. ≡ 4w, 10h ago No_A_Surrealist
  589.  
  590. Surrealist, there is a post waiting that was made just for you in the 'general' forum entitled
  591.  
  592. "Proof child protection workers, therapists etc are the abusers !"
  593.  
  594. I'll see you there.
  595. reply
  596. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  597.  
  598. CONTINUED....
  599.  
  600.     (e.g., Sandfort, 1983; Savin-Williams, 1998). Several arguments can be made supporting this position. These sexual experiences may provide these adolescents with the opportunity to explore their sexuality and feel affirmed by the gay community. Gay youth often speak of feeling different from their childhood peers and unaccepted by the dominant culture. It may be less threatening for young gay males to seekout an older gay male than to risk rejection and possible humiliation from making sexual advances toward a peer (cf. Savin-Williams, 1998). A sexual advance toward a peer may be dangerous for a gay youth if it is responded to with physical aggression, outing to the larger group of peers, and/or social rejection (Fisher & Akman, 2002). Combining perception-based CSA experience with noncoercive, nonnegative, nonabusive experiences, as the age-based definition does, presents a misleading picture of childhood sexual abuse. An age-based CSA definition inflates prevalence rates of childhood sexual abuse and inaccurately suggests that the maladjustment associated with perception-based CSA experiences applies to all childhood age-discrepant sexual encounters. In contrast, these results suggest that gay men with histories of nonnegative, noncoercive child-hood sexual experiences with older people are as well adjusted as those without histories of age-discrepant childhood sexual experiences."
  601.  
  602. Rind, Bruce (2001). "Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men: An Empirical Examination of Psychological Correlates in a Nonclinical Sample", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 30(4), 345-368
  603. "Over the last quarter century the incest model, with its image of helpless victims exploited and traumatized by powerful perpetrators, has come to dominate perceptions of virtually all forms of adult-minor sex. Thus, even willing sexual relations between gay or bisexual adolescent boys and adult men, which differ from father-daughter incest in many important ways, are generally seen by the lay public and professionals as traumatizing and psychologically injurious. This study assessed this common perception by examining a nonclinical, mostly college sample of gay and bisexual men. Of the 129 men in the study, 26 were identified as having had age-discrepant sexual relations (ADSRs) as adolescents between 12 and 17 years of age with adult males. Men with ADSR experiences were as well adjusted as controls in terms of self-esteem and having achieved a positive sexual identity. Reactions to the ADSRs were predominantly positive, and most ADSRs were willingly engaged in. Younger adolescents were just as willing and reacted at least as positively as older adolescents. Data on sexual identity development indicated that ADSRs played no role in creating same-sex sexual interests, contrary to the "seduction" hypothesis. Findings were inconsistent with the incest model. The incest model has come to act as a procrustean bed, narrowly dictating how adult-minor sexual relations quite different from incest are perceived."
  604.  
  605. Baurmann, Michael C. (1983). Sexuality, Violence and Psychological After-Effects: A Longitudinal Study of Cases of Sexual Assault which were Reported to the Police.
  606. "The victimological analysis was based on a 4-year questionnaire study (1969 - 1972) of virtually all sexual victims known to the police in the German state of Lower Saxony (n = 8058). [...] To recapitulate, only half of the declared victims (51.8%) of indecent assault suffered from injuries or even severe trauma. The other 48.2% had no problems in connection with the experience. In most of these cases the sexual offense was relatively superficial and harmless and/or the "victim" consented to the offense (page 459). [...] Homosexual contacts played no important statistical or criminological role in this study. On the one hand, they composed only 10-15% of the cases, and on the other, the sexual contacts were described by the victims themselves as "harmless", almost exclusively without the use of violence by the suspect (page 287), and as a result, none of the male victims questioned felt themselves to have been injured. In addition no injury could be determined in these cases with the help of test procedures."
  607.  
  608. Steever, E. E., Follette, V. M., & Naugle, A. E. (2001). "The correlates of male adults' perceptions of their early sexual experiences," Journal of Traumatic Stress, 14(1), 189–204.
  609. "Three groups of participants were assessed for this study: (1) men who report no history of childhood sexual experiences or report a history of consensual childhood and adolescent sexual experiences with peers (less than five years age difference; NSA), (2) men who do not identify themselves as survivors of childhood sexual abuse, but report a history of childhood or adolescent (before age eighteen) sexual experiences that were coercive/forced in nature, occurred with an individual at least 5 years older than the subject, or were incestuous in nature (involved an older family member), thus satisfying typical research definitions of child sexual abuse (ESE), and (3) men who report a history of childhood sexual experiences that they label as sexual abuse (CSA). [...] Analysis of variance between groups revealed that Group CSA (M = .71, SD = .42) reported significantly more distress than Group NSA (M = .40, SD = .36) or Group ESE did (M = .46, SD = .22). [...] Consistent with our hypotheses, participants in Group CSA were twice as likely to have participated in psychotherapy as participants in Group ESE. In fact, more than half of Group CSA reported that they had sought mental health treatment. [...] Participants in Group ESE, who by standard research criteria would be classified as "abused" did not seek out mental health counseling to a statistically greater degree than participants in Group NSA. Because the participants in Group ESE did not report higher levels of psychological distress than those in Group NSA, it seems likely that these men did not seek treatment because of lack of distress."
  610.  
  611. **Finkelhor, David (1990). "Early and long-term effects of child sexual abuse: An update," Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 21(5), pp. 325-330.**
  612.  
  613. Using mostly clinical samples: "Almost every study of the impact of sexual abuse has found a substantial group of victims with little or no symptomatology. Runyon (personal communication, September 23, 1988) found one quarter to one third of the victims without symptoms on the study's major clinician-rated measure of trauma. Mannarino and Cohen (1986) found 31% to be symptom-free. Tong et al. (1987) noted 36% of the children within the normal range on the Child Behavior Checklist. Conte and Schuerman (1987), using an extensive list of symptoms that included such minor items as “fearful of abuse stimuli” or such global items as “emotional upset,” found that 21% of abused children had no symptoms whatsoever (see also Sirles, Smith, & Kusama, 1989). [...] Research shows that such asymptomatic children are more likely to have been abused for a shorter period of time, without force and violence or penetration, by someone who is not a father figure and to have gotten support from parents in the context of a relatively well-functioning family (Browne & Finkelhor, 1986)."
  614.  
  615. **Rind, Bruce & Tromovitch, Philip (1997). "A meta-analytic review of findings from national samples on psychological correlates of child sexual abuse," Journal of Sex Research, 34, 237-255.**
  616.  
  617. "The self-reported effects data contradict the conclusions or implications presented in previous literature reviews that harmful effects stemming from CSA are pervasive and intense in the population of persons with this experience. Baker and Duncan (1985) found that, although some respondents reported permanent harm stemming from their CSA experiences (4% of males and 13% of females), the overwhelming majority did not (96% of males and 87% of females). Severe or intense harm would be expected to linger into adulthood, but this did not occur for most respondents in this national sample, according to their self-reports, contradicting the conclusion or implication of intense harm stemming from CSA in the typical case. Meta-analyses of CSA-adjustment relations from the five national studies that reported results of adjustment measures revealed a consistent pattern: SA respondents were less well adjusted than control respondents. Importantly, however, the size of this difference (i.e., effect size) was consistently small in the case of both males and females. The unbiased effect size estimate for males and females combined was ru = .08, which indicates that CSA, assuming that it was responsible for the adjustment difference between SA and control respondents, did not produce intense problems on average."
  618. Misuse of the "incest model"
  619.  
  620. Rind, Bruce (2001). "Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men: An Empirical Examination of Psychological Correlates in a Nonclinical Sample", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 30(4), 345-368.
  621. "The discrepancy between findings in the current study and expectations based on the incest model is so great as to warrant further consideration. Summit (1983) wrote an influential paper based on clinical incest cases, in which he described the "child sexual abuse accommodation syndrome." He cautioned that his syndrome "should not be viewed as a procrustean bed which defines and dictates a narrow perception of something as complex as child sexual abuse" (p. 180). Despite this warning, in the very next paragraph, even though his syndrome was built almost entirely on cases of father-daughter incest, he asserted that "male victims are at least as frequent, [and] just as helpless" (p. 180). This sort of extrapolation has become commonplace since the early 1980s. Sexual phenomena that have only age-discrepancy in common with incest are reshaped in a n
  622. reply
  623. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  624.  
  625. I note that the outcomes that the so-called 'realist' would have us believe as being actual facts of
  626.  
  627.     turn to drugs or cutting, suffer depression, and even commit suicide
  628.  
  629. are strikingly absent in the scientific literature immediately above !
  630.  
  631. Could it be that the 'realist' is actually the victim of media sensationalism and not so realistic in truth ?!
  632. reply
  633. ≡ 1mo, 6d ago anonymous
  634.  
  635. CONTINUED....
  636.  
  637. are reshaped in a narrow, rigid manner to fit the demands of the incest model. Media commentators conclude that willing sexual relations between adolescent boys and unrelated men are invariably profoundly damaging (e.g., Philadelphia Inquirer, September 13, 1984, p. 22A). Professionals reject or distort data regarding these relations that are inconsistent with the incest stereotype, reaching instead the obligatory conclusion of pervasive harm (e.g., Bartholow et at., 1994; Masters et at., 1985). A 1993 case in London, Ontario, illustrates paradigmatically the procrustean influence of the incest model when applied too broadly. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) documented on its premier informational show IDEAS (1994, 1995, 1999) what it termed the biggest sex scandal in North America. About 60 men sexually involved with adolescent boys were arrested in the midst of a "moral, panic ... generated by the police, with the help of therapists and social workers, and ... fueled by the media" (IDEAS, 1994, p. 29). CBC interviews with the boys indicated that they generally were gay or bisexual, were "sexually active teenagers who were having sex for fun or for profit" (IDEAS, 1994, p. 31 ), engaged willingly, had reached Canada's age of consent of 14 when the sex occurred, and were treated well by the men. For example, one teen commented:
  638.  
  639. *"I knew what I was doing. ... I wanted it. ... [I]t's not a recruitment thing, it's not that you 're forced into it. ... [W]hen you're 14 and gay it's as natural to want to be with a man as it is when you're 14 and straight and want to be with a girl ... I was doing it when I was 14. I was picking up the guys. It wasn't them picking me up. And you can't be a victim unless you're forced into something." (IDEAS, 1995, pp. 55,56)" *
  640. Mainstream media
  641.  
  642. "Child Molesting: A Complex Illness" (The Washington Post, March 27, 1976)
  643. "While some children panic and others become traumatized with fear after a sexual attack, still others will see their experience as an adventure or develop a relationship with their assailant who gives them a sense of belonging or importance, [psychologist Eugene] Stammeyer said. Studies have shown some children who are victims of sexual abuse exhibit "no compelling evidence of severe emotional problems" in later life, Stammeyer said. [...] [Psychiatrist Belinda] Straight said she thought it was very important for parents of a child who is sexually molested to openly express their shock and outrage--not conceal it-- so that the child can know "this is something that should haven't happened." [Psychiatrist and criminologist Bernard] Diamond, however, disagreed, saying that although it is "extremely difficult for the public to accept," some children "couldn't care less" about a sexual assault. "It's not a meaningful experience" for some children, Diamond said. "What makes it destructive is when everyone makes a fuss over it.""
  644. reply
  645. ≡ 1mo, 5d ago Hornyforfreedom
  646.  
  647. Yeah I would agree with Realist that actual abuse towards a child can lead them to drugs or harming themselves depression etc.. If the child never encounters anyone telling them that when they had sexual relationships with someone over age, it was wrong, then I don't see how they would have a problem. When you think about it the real crime is someone telling them it is wrong. It really hurts when some police officer or whatever who has been brain washed into thinking they are helping, is manipulating the child/teenager into seeing through their point of view and forgetting how much they actually enjoyed what they were doing. By that point the police officer is technically the one bringing out the factor of it being abuse because they brought up the subject in the first place.
  648. reply
  649. ≡ 1mo, 5d ago Hornyforfreedom
  650.  
  651. It's just like when you're 14 and you're smoking your first joint in your house with your buddies. It's all good and everyone is having fun until brain washed parent walks in and starts yelling at everyone and that effects everyone emotionally.
  652. reply
  653. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago anonymous
  654.  
  655. children grow up to learn morals and while you may think it's loving your child, the truth is no child ever grows up to say thanks for sexually abusing me daddy. it's not about learning morals from others it's that you poor fat slobs are just wrong and can't see it... thus why you're thrown away into a prison for life
  656. reply
  657. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago anonymous
  658.  
  659. "just wrong" does not cut it around here.
  660. You will need to bring facts and logic to present your opinion.
  661.  
  662. Knowing what we know from our studying the matter, you stating "just wrong" is about as persuasive as a little kid trying to prove something by saying "liar, liar, pants on fire"
  663.  
  664. Oh, and all pedos are not fat slobs btw, you would have to be a very biased, judgmental and hate filled person to believe that in that obvious statistical improbability... truth is pedos match every demographic that the wider community does except who pedos would prefer to have a relationship with.
  665. reply
  666. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  667.  
  668. Your point is invalid because you have used the 'loaded' term of
  669.  
  670.     thanks for 'sexually abusing' me daddy
  671.  
  672. Of course if it is actual abuse (force, violence, trickery) then yes, it is unlikely that a child will grow up pleased with that.
  673.  
  674. However your loaded terminology of'sexually abusing' leaves no room for the reader to evaluate with their own mind whether the interactions between the child and the adult that the child is thanking the adult about were in truth abusive or consensual and therefor it is misleading to say that NO child ever grows up to say thanks in that pre-loaded context.
  675.  
  676. Using pre-loaded, emotionally laden words/terms is a trick that you antis are absolutely masters at performing and you do so at almost every time you speak regarding pedophilia E.G. molest, rape, abuse etc !
  677. reply
  678. ≡ 1mo, 2d ago PopeFrancis
  679.  
  680. I hope friends can also work god and jesus into their defence if their caught.The vatican loves all pedos but we cant afford to pay for your lawyer unless your a priest.Glory!
  681. reply
  682. ≡ 1mo, 1d ago Athletic
  683.  
  684. How about no.
  685. reply
  686. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  687.  
  688. STFU. Your fatican can go piss on the heads of the Mary statues.
  689. reply
  690. ≡ 1mo, 2h ago LCWISE
  691.  
  692. Thanks for posting your responses Athletic. I am glad you have a genuine relationship with your little girl friend, and she is lucky to have had some-one love her body without impressing shame and guilt all over her. If all goes well she will probably grow up better adjusted, more self-confident and with higher self-esteem than her peers - thanks to your love, affirmation and affection (no citations offered other than my own valid experience of life).
  693.  
  694. Something I learned a long time ago, maybe will help you: people believe what they want to believe, and that's ok, its the way its "meant to be". That's why its true in a sense that each person lives in "their own world" and a consensual reality fills the spaces in between. Its the ulimate experience of free-will. If you look hard enough you will find evidence out there to justify anything you want to believe, so its not really about the evidence (an attempt to bully people into your version of reality), but the elegance and attractiveness (to yourself) of what you are choosing to believe - and it is a choice.
  695.  
  696. People who choose to believe its okay to hurt kids will find the evidence to support this decision, and end up believing in a reality that is grim and sad. People like you who choose to believe its okay to love kids including sexually, and this should be done with respect and care, will find the evidence to support that decision and end up living in a reality that is loving and caring.
  697.  
  698. If you can find the truth of this assertion in your own life (in other words if you choose to believe it), you won't feel threatened by people who want to live in the anti world, because you will know that no-one can take away your choice to live in a better world - except you.
  699.  
  700. I have left a lot of questions unanswered here but will respond to any further questions. Sorry for the lack of citations and scientific evidence but your own free will is a greater authority than so-called objective science, and your own state of consciousness is heaven or hell regardless what science has to say about it.IMO.
  701. reply
  702. ≡ 4w, 1d ago Athletic
  703.  
  704. That was something I needed to read. I can only take so much hate you know? Generally I agree, however while people do live in their own realities, there is still a general reality that is all around us. A sadist may convince themselves the child deserves the pain or wants it, but there is clear evidence the child is harmed and does not want it.
  705.  
  706. The thing is, science does side with is, problem is... people act like the sadist, they convince themselves a child can never enjoy a pleasurable experience like sex is done with an adult. They have their own reality, but it conflicts with the general reality that surrounds us all.
  707.  
  708. I wonder if I made sense haha anyone I liked your post, thanks for it.
  709. reply
  710. ≡ 4w, 1d ago anonymous
  711.  
  712.     science does side with is
  713.  
  714. Maybe you meant to write "science does side with 'us'" !
  715. reply
  716. ≡ 4w, 13h ago LCWISE
  717.  
  718. Athletic I think I know what you are trying to say: the consensus reality you and I live in says that children are hurt by sadistic sex - and you are in conflict therefore with pedorasts, therefore you can't be very happy with your world unless you are at war with pedorasts?
  719.  
  720. If you don't like violence and you go and sit in front of a TV everyday and watch violence then you are not going to be very happy with your world. Don't tune into pedorasts unless they are in your pathway - then you need to deal with them. Otherwise ignore them. Why pollute your world with them?
  721.  
  722. If you go out looking for a fight you will attract these types to you because your mind is thinking about them.
  723.  
  724. The most deeply effective way to change your world is to "be the change you seek to effect" (Ghandi - not quoted 100% accurately). This will also attract to your "world" people like you and when you have to deal with a pedorast it will be unavoidable and they won't feel like you are on a personal vendetta against them. Don't try and change the world - change yourself and your world - that's all you can influence directly anyway.
  725. reply
  726. ≡ 3w, 6d ago Athletic
  727.  
  728. Good points, I definitely agree and will use them.
  729. reply
  730. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  731.  
  732. Let's take a moment to really think about what you're doing here with this post. You are trying desperately to make yourself feel better about what you do to your "little girl friend". You know it's wrong, but you're taking cliche arguments by concerned adults, proving them invalid, and not truly seeking the real, the deeper "why not?". Not only is it not safe for a child to be exposed to these interactions, but it certainly cannot be doing you any mental good. Think about it like this- yes, pleasure, sexual or not is always enjoyable. Have you never held regrets over a sexual encounter? I do not know if you've copulated with an adult or not, but sex, while enjoyable, can be so, so regretted. I was a young girl when I had sex for the first time. I look back at the sweaty, nervous face of the grown man who did it and I want to kill him. I'm embarassed for him, and hurt for myself. It doesn't matter how I think about it. I was used up before I was 16. Sex was fun for so long, I did it because I enjoyed it and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Now here I am, an adult woman. A rare libido, images of regret racing through my mind. i said "yes" to this man and he did not hesitate to take something from me that is so easily manipulated into something unimportant by people like you. As for your beach analogy, I do not remember a single trip to the beach in my New England lifetime as clearly as I remember being under this man- Blankly staring as he proded me. I'm fucked up in the head now. I'm the angriest woman I know. And it all goes back to MY conscent? Just because I conscented to something and this man... this shell of a man, rather, thought everything was hunky dory, I get to deal with this memory? If the man who took my virginity would've just held back, my life would be different. I would have a good relationship with sex, and I wouldn't be hunting this man. Do you think that your "little girl friend" is going to be okay when she finds out she is too old for you? And if she isn't ever going to be too old for you, what is stopping you from finding a woman instead of a girl? Are you that bound and determined to touch a child? Think about me next time you touch her. I got old enough to realize what was done to me. I got real angry too, and violent. While you've been busy thinking up ways to soothe the tension in your mind about the fucked up shit you do to her, all the little girls who have been touched, fucked, hurt, by men like you--- they're either dying inside, completely fine with it, or batshit lethally nuts like me. And if that's the risk you want to take- I hope I find you too.
  733. Looking for good points to help you argue for something that ruined my outlook on life is insulting. Pedophilia is insulting. For you to think that you have the right to do anything with a little girl enrages me. The fact that you think you're taking care of your "little girl friend" makes me want to eat your fucking heart. The fact that you assume everything will be okay- makes me laugh. That little girl has a life that has just begun and if you can't honestly say that you have learned lessons from your childhood until now, there is obviously something wrong with you other than your paraphelia. She has many lessons to learn, one of them may be that you were a mistake. Her decision to terminate the mistake, could go either way. Like I said- these are the risks you are taking when you act on your desires. It is not okay, it will never be okay, and nothing you say, do or scream will ever make it okay. You could be lucky and the little girl you hurt will never do anything. Then again, you could be unlucky.
  734. reply
  735. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  736.  
  737. You are lying. Whose interests are served by you trying to deny the truth? Not those of anyone who could truthfully make any such claims.
  738. OP is active with children, so you're never going to convince him, me, or anyone else not to be. This is a child porn site, it's not technically possible for you to post here without possessing and viewing CP, so you're never going to convince anyone here not to download and upload CP. You are scum. So why do you post here?
  739. reply
  740. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  741.  
  742.     It doesn't matter how I think about it. I was used up before I was 16. Sex was fun for so long, I did it because I enjoyed it and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Now here I am, an adult woman. A rare libido, images of regret racing through my mind.
  743.  
  744.     I got old enough to realize what was done to me. I got real angry too, and violent
  745.  
  746. They world has taught you well hasn't it !
  747.  
  748. And you have found something to blame all your life problems on to boot !
  749.  
  750. It's a win/win situation !
  751.  
  752. Ok, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but can you see that everything that you have said, and I mean EVERYTHING is based purely on your own personal subjective emotion, there is no fact, no logic and no references to scientific studies... that is atypical, the absolute standard practice for antis arguing their position.
  753.  
  754. The reason for that is because human history, logic, fact, academia, truth and science is on pedos side ( see the morality forum for proof by reviewing the studies and authored works )
  755.  
  756. Fact is that there are people like you who feel harmed later in life from adult/child intimacy, but the science shows it is only 4% of males and 13% of females ( see http://m3hjrfh4hlqc67gb.onion/forum/thread/1476 for proof ).
  757.  
  758. That is not a significant enough percentage to prevent the other major percentage of persons who self report no perceived harm from engaging in an activity that is their birth right to engage in (like just about every other thing)
  759.  
  760. I know this may make it even harder for you to feel better, but most unfortunately, it is society in general that you need to blame for the way you feel, not the man who you were involved with.
  761.  
  762. That's because, and you have said it yourself (just look at what you have written !), you literally enjoyed the experience at the time..... then you stated it is your belief that only later when you became an adult did you start to regret it.
  763.  
  764. My bet is that you are somewhere around 48-55 years old. That is because to be that age you would have been in early adulthood when the media hysteria and deception really got into full swing.
  765.  
  766. The truth is, it is media and society that has caused you to re-interpret what you admit was enjoyable as being something wrongful.
  767.  
  768. If you think about it logically, it cannot have been from the 'act(s)' with the man because you enjoyed those acts, you never performed them again and so had no actual reason to perhaps not enjoy it so much the second time and you had no other interactions with this man since that could have made you dislike him.... so it had to be something external to the man and the acts that you engaged in with the man.
  769.  
  770. If logic is not something that you are predisposed to understanding, then here is several scientific studies that prove the same concept.
  771.  
  772. Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes
  773. Established research that investigates CSA as a clinical / legal / traumatic phenomenon, using clinically / legally / trauma biased samples is often generalised to whole populations. This page addresses the need to pool nonclinical, nonlegal and nontraumatic sampled research articles on the prevalence of harm.
  774. http://rl2pgrl56om2njuw.onion/index.php?title=Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes
  775.  
  776. Secondary Harm
  777. Secondary harm may occur when a childhood sexual experience is reinterpreted as abusive, or when police or parents intervene in an intergenerational relationship.
  778. http://rl2pgrl56om2njuw.onion/index.php?title=Research:_Secondary_Harm
  779.  
  780. Association or Causation
  781. Demonstrates that the relationship between adult-child sex and harm.
  782. The 9 criteria outlined by Austin Bradford Hill in The Environment and Disease: Association or Causation? are used to determine whether causation can be assumed in medicine. This page will review the research on adult-child sex to see if these criteria have been met. Unfortunately, much research fails to disentangle adult-child sex from clearly abusive activity, so some quotations examine the construct of 'child sexual abuse' as a whole. is unlikely to be causative.
  783. http://rl2pgrl56om2njuw.onion/index.php?title=Research:_Association_or_Causation
  784.  
  785. In case you dont wish to go to those links, here is one summary of a study from each of the above links.
  786.  
  787. Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes
  788. Rind, Bruce, Tromovitch, Philip, and Bauserman, Robert (1998). "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples," Psychological Bulletin, 124(1), 22-53
  789.  
  790. "Many lay persons and professionals believe that child sexual abuse (CSA) causes intense harm, regardless of gender, pervasively in the general population. The authors examined this belief by reviewing 59 studies based on college samples. Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE. Self-reported reactions to and effects from CSA indicated that negative effects were neither pervasive nor typically intense, and that men reacted much less negatively than women. The college data were completely consistent with data from national samples. [...]
  791. Fifteen studies presented data on participants' retrospectively recalled immediate reactions to their CSA experiences that were classifiable as positive, neutral, or negative. Overall, 72% of female experiences, but only 33% of male experiences, were reported to have been negative at the time. On the other hand, 37% of male experiences, but only 11% of female experiences, were reported as positive. [...] Seven female and three male samples contained reports of positive, neutral, and negative current reflections (i.e., current feelings) about CSA experiences. Results were similar to retrospectively recalled immediate reactions, with 59% of 514 female experiences being reported as negative compared with 26% of 118 male experiences. Conversely, 42% of current reflections of male experiences, but only 16% of female experiences, were reported as positive. [...] The overall picture that emerges from these self-reports is that (a) the vast majority of both men and women reported no negative sexual effects from their CSA experiences; (b) lasting general negative effects were uncommon for men and somewhat more common for women, although still comprising only a minority; and (c) temporary negative effects were more common, reported by a minority of men and a minority to a majority of women."
  792.  
  793. Secondary Harm
  794. Bauserman, Robert; Rind, Bruce (1997). "Psychological Correlates of Male Child and Adolescent Sexual Experiences with Adults: A Review of the Nonclinical Literature," Archives of Sexual Behavior, 26(2), 105-141.
  795.  
  796. "Secondary consequences include reactions of others, such as parents and peers, to the sexual contacts. Feelings of guilt and shame regarding the sexual contacts, which are based on perceived violation of one’s own and others’ norms, are also addressed here.
  797. Emotional responses of guilt were related to outcomes, with greater guilt associated with more negative responses, Haugaard and Emery (1989) and Okami (1991) both reported guilt feelings to be associated with negative evaluations of experiences. Stein et al. (1988), in their study of unwanted experience in a community sample, noted that feelings of guilt and shame were common. Risin and Koss (1987) reported that guilt feelings were more common in experiences involving fondling, which were also associated with more force and greater levels of other negative feelings. Finally, Sandfort (1984) reported that when the boys interviewed in his study were asked about negative aspects of their relationships, many cited concerns about possible negative reactions from others, such as parents, peers, and authorities.
  798. The role of socialization in these reactions may be very important. Finkelhor (1979) and Fritz et al. (1981) both suggested that boys’ reactions may be more positive than those of girls because boys are socialized to regard sex in a more positive fashion, whereas girls receive more negative messages. Fritz et at. (1981) stated that although girls typically regarded their experiences as sexual violation, boys often regarded their experiences as sexual initiation.
  799. Clearly, feelings of guilt and shame and concerns about negative reactions from others are associated with negative responses to early sexual contacts with adults. These responses, however, are not inherent in the sexual contact per se but rather stem from social taboos and condemnation (cf. Constantine, 1981). To the extent that boys receive more positive messages regarding sexuality, they are less likely to experience these negative emotions and to react negatively to sexual contacts."
  800.  
  801. Association or Causation
  802. Rind, B., Tromovitch, P. & Bauserman, R. (1998). "A meta-analytic examination of assumed properties of child sexual abuse (CSA) using college samples," Psychological Bulletin, 124(1), 22-53
  803.  
  804. "Multiple regression analyses showed that the intensity of the relationship between CSA and adjustment varied reliably as a function of gender, level of consent, and the interaction of these two factors. It is noteworthy that neither the level of contact nor the interaction between gender and level of contact was related to intensity. These latter results failed to provide support for the common belief that contact sex is more harmful than noncontact sex or that contact sex for girls is especially harmful. These conclusions, however, should be viewed cautiously because of the overlapping nature of the two levels of the contact variable (i.e., contact only versus contact and noncontact sex). This same caveat applies to con
  805. reply
  806. ≡ 3w, 6d ago anonymous
  807.  
  808. .......CONTINUED
  809.  
  810. This same caveat applies to consent because its two levels (unwanted versus willing and unwanted) were overlapping as well. [...] In separate moderator analyses, we examined how aspects of the CSA experience moderated self-reported reactions and effects, as well as symptoms. Although these results should be viewed cautiously because they were usually based on a small number of samples, we found that only force and incest moderated outcomes. The largest relation occurred between force and self-reported reactions or effects, but force was unrelated to symptoms. Incest moderated both symptoms and self-reported reactions and effects. Penetration, duration, and frequency did not moderate outcomes. The near-zero correlation between penetration and outcome is consistent with the multiple regression analysis finding that contact sex did not moderate adjustment. [...] This finding is consistent with Laumann et al.'s (1994) failure to find an association between their composite variable (consisting of penetration, number of older partners-abusers, relatedness of partner-abuser, frequency of contacts, age when having contacts, duration of contacts) and adjustment for SA respondents in their study of a U.S. national sample. "
  811. reply
  812. ≡ 3w, 5d ago Athletic
  813.  
  814. First off let me deal with your "threat" of "finding me". Your life and apparent misery would end with bullets in your head.
  815.  
  816. It is very typical for victims of molestation to project their experience on any child who has a sexual relationship. This is clearly what you are doing. If all the guy did was ask to have sex and then just fuck you with no care to your pleasure then that sucks. Sorry you were not with a lover but a user. Do not project your experience on every child because all you are doing is generalizing.
  817.  
  818. I have already had the internal battle, the anxiety, depression, hatred of myself, hatred of everyone. I have posted my arguments in places filled with people like you, because just preaching to the choir doesn't work. I have learned that people who were truly abused, try to take up with "great moral cause" to stop all children from experiencing sexual relations based only on their own personal experience.
  819.  
  820. You do not know my relationship with any of these girls. You also don't know that it was initiated by her. Asking me to touch her and I did and that's that. Dying inside? She is a bubbly happy girl who begs to sleep over and likes to cuddle and kiss.
  821.  
  822. Let's also not forget a very telling like by you, [i]Sex was fun for so long, I did it because I enjoyed it and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.[/i] completely normal... sex is fun, a fun and special activity between two (or more) people who like/love one another. However this is not the prevailing view in society because of those that use sex as a means of control. Let's see what you said next [i]I got old enough to realize what was done to me.[/i] Incorrect. You lived long enough in a society that drilled into your head that what you enjoyed and liked was wrong. You were convinced that this man used you and didn't love you. Whether that is the truth I don't know and likely you don't anymore either.
  823.  
  824. I have fucked legal aged women. I regretted it a couple times (too drunk, very ugly or clingy girl) but regret is a part of life. I just laugh it off and move on. It isn't a big deal.
  825.  
  826. Little girls are magical though. They amaze me. I would never ever use a little girl. I have been known to drop everything to help a little girl, even if I knew sexual play would never happen. I care for them, respect them, love them, have fun with them, sometimes sexually, never had a complaint, just smiles, giggles.
  827.  
  828. I am sorry your life is awful, however that is not my fault, and that will not happen to my girls as long as I can help it. I teach them to be confident, trust themselves, question everything, be independent, be comfortable with their sexuality. they won't get too old for me, however what usually happens is they lose romantic interest in me... I am stuck with the heart break, but that is the life of a real child lover.
  829. reply
  830. ≡ 2w, 1d ago anonymous
  831.  
  832.     Let's take a moment to really think about what you're doing here with this post.
  833.  
  834. Umm... post... in a discussion forum... on the internet?
  835.  
  836.     You are trying desperately to make yourself feel better
  837.  
  838. You... can of course provide proof for your assertion that s/he was feeling a little bit down that day??
  839.  
  840.     about what you do to your "little girl friend".
  841.  
  842. Pix - or it didn't happen!!
  843.  
  844. (thank you, onionland, thank you)
  845.  
  846.     You know it's wrong
  847.  
  848. Since no such "wrong" has been established, it cannot be a thing "known," can it? Therefore, your campaign of whispers is... horseshit, isn't it?
  849.  
  850.     but you're taking cliche arguments by concerned adults, proving them invalid
  851.  
  852. ...except if they actually WERE concerned, they wouldn't have to use lies and confusion to defend their position - and it would be much easier to leave home.
  853.  
  854. Heterosexuality and the state. Basically, you're just an enabler.
  855.  
  856.     and not truly seeking the real, the deeper "why not?".
  857.  
  858. That assumes the answer is predecided, doesn't it?
  859.  
  860.     Not only is it not safe for a child to be exposed to these interactions
  861.  
  862. I dunno. The automobile, murderous death machine that it is, is still legal, while you haven't really exposed ANY risk to a handjob at all.
  863.  
  864.     Think about it like this
  865.  
  866. Nope. I'll take what you say as your argument, but I don't think on command, thx.
  867.  
  868.     but it certainly cannot be doing you any mental good.
  869.  
  870. Not only have you done NOTHING to establish this claim - but I could probably link to thousands of "sexuality and wellness" studies which suggest the exact opposite.
  871.  
  872.     Think about it like this- yes, pleasure, sexual or not is always enjoyable. Have you never held regrets over a sexual encounter?
  873.  
  874. You know that "pix or it didn't happen" standard?
  875.  
  876. I forgot to take pix.
  877.  
  878.     I was a young girl when I had sex for the first time. I look back at the sweaty, nervous face of the grown man who did it and I want to kill him.
  879.  
  880. First you say this, but then you say...
  881.  
  882.     It doesn't matter how I think about it.
  883.  
  884. So... which is it? Do your internet fictions matter, or don't they?
  885.  
  886.     I was used up before I was 16.
  887.  
  888. Probably. That doesn't say much about other people - you know, ones that don't go trolling on message boards - though, does it?
  889.  
  890.     Sex was fun for so long, I did it because I enjoyed it and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
  891.  
  892. So, now you DO think there is something wrong with sex, itself?
  893.  
  894. Congratulations.
  895.  
  896.     Now here I am, an adult woman. A rare libido
  897.  
  898. Wellbutrin, brah.
  899.  
  900.     i said "yes" to this man and he did not hesitate to take something from me
  901.  
  902. Can you quantify this "something?"
  903.  
  904.     that is so easily manipulated into something unimportant by people like you.
  905.  
  906. You haven't yet established that this "something" exists, or wtf it supposedly is. How can it be "important" if you can't say what it is or prove that it exists... just that there's allegedly a vague "something," and that sex is evil and turns anyone young or old into "damaged goods" missing a vague "something" according to you?
  907.  
  908.     As for your beach analogy, I do not remember a single trip to the beach in my New England lifetime as clearly as I remember being under this man
  909.  
  910. You totally need better vacations. Ever consider that maybe life sucks because you've never made anything of it?
  911.  
  912. Go back to the beach. Live a little. Make something of it.
  913.  
  914.     I'm fucked up in the head now.
  915.  
  916. I gathered that from your "sex is wrong" and "vague... something!" assertions so far.
  917.  
  918.     If the man who took my virginity would've just held back, my life would be different.
  919.  
  920. Yes - you'd still be a virgin. After all, the NEXT person you wanted to have sex with would be "the man who took your virginity," not that it exists.
  921.  
  922. It's a never-ending tower of tortises. Something has to be first.
  923.  
  924.     I would have a good relationship with sex
  925.  
  926. Since you've already said above that sex, itself, is "evil" in your worldview, then yes, being an eternal virgin would be consistent.
  927.  
  928. Most people would call you fucked up in the head.
  929.  
  930.     and I wouldn't be hunting this man.
  931.  
  932. That's a choice you made, and you could change it at any time.
  933.  
  934. Seriously, though, it can't be that hard - wtf is taking you so long?
  935.  
  936.     Do you think that your "little girl friend" is going to be okay when she finds out she is too old for you?
  937.  
  938. We joke about it when we hang out.
  939.  
  940.     And if she isn't ever going to be too old for you, what is stopping you from finding a woman instead of a girl?
  941.  
  942. A more important question is "why should one want to?"
  943.  
  944. Heteronormativity doesn't just have apologists like you who sponsor rape - it's also overrated in its own right.
  945.  
  946.     Are you that bound and determined to touch a child? Think about me next time you touch her.
  947.  
  948. That would turn you on?
  949.  
  950.     I got real angry too, and violent.
  951.  
  952. That's supposed to impress people about how lucid your arguments are?
  953.  
  954.     While you've been busy thinking up ways to soothe the tension in your mind
  955.  
  956. You assume I have some - or that I'd want to soothe it if I did.
  957.  
  958. Honestly, I think the only one trying to soothe tension about doing evil to others is... you. You've already admitted it.
  959.  
  960.     about the fucked up shit you do to her
  961.  
  962. Pix or it didn't happen.
  963.  
  964.     all the little girls who have been touched, fucked, hurt
  965.  
  966. ...usually choose me as a safe harbor. Where the fuck are you, exactly?
  967.  
  968.     by men like you
  969.  
  970. If you want to make claims about me, you're going to have to provide proof.
  971.  
  972.     they're either dying inside, completely fine with it, or batshit lethally nuts like me. And if that's the risk you want to take- I hope I find you too.
  973.  
  974. Afraid you won't like THEIR answer? Poor baby.
  975.  
  976.     Looking for good points to help you argue for something that ruined my outlook on life is insulting.
  977.  
  978. Actually, I tend to argue against most of the vectors of just-plain-nuts. 'n you seriously might want to take better vacations.
  979.  
  980.     For you to think that you have the right to do anything with a little girl enrages me.
  981.  
  982. For you to think that you have the right to type on the interwebs WOULD enrage me, but I don't seem to have the same tension in my mind which seems to be ripping you apart.
  983.  
  984.     The fact that you think you're taking care of your "little girl friend" makes me want to eat your fucking heart.
  985.  
  986. It is, actually, made of sweetness and nummers.
  987.  
  988.     The fact that you assume everything will be okay- makes me laugh.
  989.  
  990. You... has plans to hurt the girl in my life, like you threatened earlier?
  991.  
  992. Well, thank God for .onions.
  993.  
  994.     That little girl has a life that has just begun
  995.  
  996. No, actually - it began two or three years ago.
  997.  
  998.     and if you can't honestly say that you have learned lessons from your childhood until now, there is obviously something wrong with you
  999.  
  1000. I was briefly sent to a Christian school which tried to teach me "lessons," but I didn't believe in hatred, including hating the people they told me to.
  1001.  
  1002. A lot of "lessons" are a step backwards. Conversely, a baby could teach you a lot about life - just try to avoid hurting it to express your "tensions."
  1003.  
  1004.     other than your paraphelia.
  1005.  
  1006. You're presupposing that it's a problem, which is called "begging the question."
  1007.  
  1008. If you check the DSM, incidentally, I don't have a paraphilia unless I swallow your horseshit and act as emo as you, btw.
  1009.  
  1010.     She has many lessons to learn, one of them may be that you were a mistake.
  1011.  
  1012. That could be. If that's what she decides, I hope she can follow her new life's happiness, wherever it takes her, simply and easily.
  1013.  
  1014.     Like I said- these are the risks you are taking when you act on your desires. It is not okay, it will never be okay, and nothing you say, do or scream will ever make it okay.
  1015.  
  1016. One of the reasons I have sooooo much less internal "tension" than you is simple - I realized long ago that just about EVERYTHING is "okay."
  1017.  
  1018. If I wipe my ass with my right hand and eat with my left, it may be "shocking" to some cultures, but really, no one gets hurt, no one dies, and the sky does not come crashing down. If I worship "God" under one name, or another name, or just freeform, or even just take a moment to appreciate the wonders in a very vast universe, lightning doesn't crash from the sky to smite anything, the world doesn't end, and no deity or absence of deity is really going to get all that butthurt, as such frailty is the domain of mortal ego alone. It doesn't MATTER whether I become a doctor, or a lawyer, or just grab a tent and see the world; food, water, and shelter are the only requirements. The price of petrol will not affect me worth a damn if I give pedestrianism a try. It doesn't matter worth a damn if I prefer diogenean or socratic philosophical trends. Gay marriage will not, actually, plunge the world into anarchy and bring civilization crashing down.
  1019.  
  1020. Almost nothing matters outside the amusement of the creatures which are actually involved, and almost everything is, in fact, okay.
  1021.  
  1022. There are exceptions. Your willingness to join a state-sponsored refocusing on "queers" is responsible for daytime curfews, nighttime curfews, state-sponsored trafficking of runaways back to what they left, the inability for domestic violence shelters to take in runaways and in fact in decreasing the ability of runaways to leave, and more - you're a small and insignifigant cog in working to uphold a heterosexual-state complex predicated on the violence of the patriarchal head of household. As long as you're taking part in the campaign of distraction and displacement, "daddy issues" are, in fact, your fault - personally.
  1023.  
  1024. 'n that somewhat matters because there is someone actually ivolved - the runaway, and they left. You're either part of the solution or part of the problem, and the problem is letting entrenched systems displace on the people most likely to listen. "Philia," incidentally, specifies platonic friendship - you're looking for 'erastes,' the erotic
  1025. reply
  1026. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Realist
  1027.  
  1028. I thought this thread was long dead but it appears that I was incorrect in my conclusion.
  1029.  
  1030. I'm not going to go back and respond to the text tornados others have posted as so-called proof. If someone wants to address one point at a time with me, I'd be happy to continue this discussion. Going forward, you will be disappointed if you copy/paste some article you found on pedowiki or elsewhere within this forum and expect me to respond. Pick a point, elaborate on it in your own words, and I would be happy to offer my opinion in response.
  1031.  
  1032. One point at a time.
  1033. reply
  1034. ≡ 2w, 5d ago anonymous
  1035.  
  1036.     I'm not going to go back and respond to the text tornados others have posted as so-called proof.
  1037.  
  1038. Simply an excuse not to have to respond.
  1039.  
  1040. You make the excuse because you cannot respond because their are no legitimate, credible arguments available to you that would serve to successfully rebut the new posts above.
  1041.  
  1042. Thanks for proving we are correct :)
  1043.  
  1044. Also, It's just so telling that you refuse to enter into discussions regarding the studies etc from the PedoWiki !
  1045. http://rl2pgrl56om2njuw.onion/index.php/Main_Page
  1046. Why I wonder would that be ??
  1047. reply
  1048. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Athletic
  1049.  
  1050. He won't accept studies from a pedowiki (even though the studies were NOT even commission by some pro-pedo organization. Yet he gladly accepts studies from politically motivated individuals who have a stake in creating victims.
  1051.  
  1052. Most realistic people will look at the study itself, not dismiss it because of where it is from.
  1053.  
  1054. That and... long dead? This thread is two weeks old.
  1055.  
  1056. An excuse not to respond indeed.
  1057. reply
  1058. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Realist
  1059.  
  1060. It feels strange to quote myself but what I said was:
  1061.  
  1062. "Going forward, you will be disappointed if you copy/paste some article you found on pedowiki or elsewhere within this forum and expect me to respond. Pick a point, elaborate on it in your own words, and I would be happy to offer my opinion in response. "
  1063.  
  1064. To elaborate, I won't respond to entire articles, mostly because people simply copy/paste them without any thought to their content as I previously discussed in this thread. However, and as I just stated yesterday, I will respond to individual points taken from articles.
  1065.  
  1066. And, as usual, I will not respond at all to anonymous posters.
  1067. reply
  1068. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Anonymizer
  1069.  
  1070. I like how you act all high-and-mighty, attempting to smite us from this position of false authority that you've created for yourself. But when the pedestal you stand on is made from your own inflated ego, the slightest pinprick will send it tumbling. You're the only one who believes in yourself anymore, Realist. We've all seen you for what you are; a haughty fool who believes nothing that isn't in the sound of his own voice, parroting his own points. Let's see you take on these points from the OP, one by one, in your own words, much as you state we must:
  1071.  
  1072. 1) Sex is pleasurable for children
  1073.  
  1074. 2) Most children are not harmed by sexual contact with an adult, no more so than they would be from sexual contact with a peer
  1075.  
  1076. 3) The "children cannot consent to sex" argument is fallacious at best.
  1077. reply
  1078. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Athletic
  1079.  
  1080. He is coming from a few possible positions:
  1081.  
  1082.     One that protects his sanity. The no-contact position is mentally satisfying to some. It is hard to live in a world where you are in such an extreme minority. The desire to "fit in" is strong. Especially when you hold a view that many would kill you for holding, regardless of its validity.
  1083.  
  1084.     He feels superior that he is "controlling" himself. He feels we have given into our urges and we are rationalizing it. He doesn't necessarily view us as evil or bad, but sad and misguided. This is the position I once took. He thinks any attempt at showing that children like sexual contact is rationalization, he feels he can resist that urge and knows "the truth".
  1085.  
  1086.     He is merely playing devil's advocate to help his pedo brethren hone their skills.
  1087.  
  1088.     He is an anti playing at being a pedo to garner more attention/trust in what he says.
  1089.  
  1090.     He is just fucking around.
  1091.  
  1092. reply
  1093. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1094.  
  1095. #1 is the most correct, with a dash of #3. I have a live-and-let-live policy for most things in life. But these issues are important to me and I feel the need to stand up for what I believe, and against arguments I feel are invalid, unsubstantiated, or otherwise weak.
  1096.  
  1097. On the other options: I don't feel superior to anyone here. I truly am a pedo. And, I am not fucking around.
  1098. reply
  1099. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Athletic
  1100.  
  1101. Well you really remind me of myself from about 5 years ago. If you ever turn around and change your view point you will be a great asset to the movement.
  1102. reply
  1103. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Realist
  1104.  
  1105. Flattery will get you nowhere with me :-)
  1106.  
  1107. 1) Of course sex is pleasurable for children. I never said it wasn't.
  1108.  
  1109. 2) You're combining two issues here, comparing sex with an adult to sex with a peer. I'll address the first issue because that is what the thread is about. When you say that "most" children are not harmed by sex with an adult, it stands to reason that "some" children are indeed harmed by it. I'm not claiming that it's a black and white, open and shut issue. My position is that all children are placed at risk of being harmed in an adult/child sexual relationship. You appear to agree that some children do come to some form of harm. So, what could possibly justify the risk?
  1110.  
  1111. 3) I just commented on this issue a few posts down.
  1112. reply
  1113. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1114.  
  1115. 1) At least we can agree there.
  1116.  
  1117. 2) No, those aren't two separate issues. You're trying to separate what is one issue. Sex is sex, and you are taking the position of the religious right here in attempting to over-complicate it. I agree that some children are harmed by sex. Some adults are harmed by sex. What could possibly justify the risk there? Should we all just be asexual? In your world, perhaps. But as sex is a highly pleasurable act, I think that is the quite self-evident justification.
  1118.  
  1119. 3) I will respond to your post there.
  1120. reply
  1121. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1122.  
  1123. 2) In my opinion, they are indeed separate issues. Social stigma exists whether we like it or not. We cannot will it away. There is significant social stigma associated with adult-child sex when compared to child-child sex.
  1124. reply
  1125. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1126.  
  1127. "In my opinion..."
  1128. That's right. It is your opinion. And simply because the majority of society (currently) supports it does not make it right. At one point, the majority of society thought that women who floated when tossed into a lake were witches. At one point, the majority of society thought bleeding with leeches was the best way to heal you. At one point, the majority of society thought that the Earth was the center of the universe, which was 6,000 years old, contained 10,000 stars, and 6 planets. I don't give two fucks about social stigma. I care about the TRUTH. And you should too. It doesn't matter what society thinks in here--we all have to live in society when we close down our computers, I know that, but you don't think you could take the scales off your eyes for just a little bit and see for a minute?
  1129. reply
  1130. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1131.  
  1132. This thread is not about leeches and witches, it's about adult-child sex. Social stigma is real. It's part of life. It's something we all have to deal with, whether or not we agree with the general consensus. Therefore, the social stigma of adult-child sex is something each and every participating child will eventually have to deal with, distinguishing the act from child-child sex.
  1133.  
  1134. Yeah, I get it. You disagree with society on this. But your beliefs neither reduce the effects of social stigma nor make it any less relevant to the child's well-being.
  1135. reply
  1136. ≡ 1w, 4d ago faeaweds
  1137.  
  1138. you can teach children to be immune to those stigmas if you know how, just like gays did back then.
  1139. The sons (and daughters) of gays couples dont discriminate gays at all, because their fathers taught them why being gay wasnt bad at all. And so the ones that ended up being gay later one werent all repressed and so they came out of the closet and fought for their rights(and those that werent gay supported them), and that's how the gay movement began.
  1140. The same goes for us, but the media oppression is doubled on us, because we touch both children and sex at the same time, gays just touched sex, but we fight against being perverts and "harming" children. At least they dont say pedos are all atheists else we would have the church on us too....
  1141. Their biggest problem isnt us, but our kids. If our kids arent victims of the mass hysteria like most now, then they wont believe their bullshit about pedos being criminals, and so they lose legitimacy: If you get a big group of people like that, then they begin having a voice and so starts a movement and so tyrants fall...
  1142. reply
  1143. ≡ 1w, 4d ago anonymous
  1144.  
  1145. Get off you ass realist and do something pro-active about reversing the social stigma instead of just using it as an excuse to reinforce your position.
  1146.  
  1147. The social stigma is not set in stone, the social stigma is the cause of the harm to children and it can be changed, why do you choose to use it as an excuse, when most of the others of us take steps to attempt to change the stigma to align with reality ?
  1148.  
  1149. WHY ??
  1150. reply
  1151. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Athletic
  1152.  
  1153. If you would look at the post by No_A_Surrealist in this thread, you would see he made a point by point analysis of your points on the studies I linked to.
  1154. reply
  1155. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Realist
  1156.  
  1157. I know he made a post, but it was very long and I don't have time to sit down and analyze the entire thing. That's one of the reasons why I prefer to take things point by point.
  1158. reply
  1159. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1160.  
  1161. "Which is why I only prefer to reply to posts where I feel I can win the argument easily." Do you realize how stupid you sound, Realist?
  1162. reply
  1163. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1164.  
  1165. When we resort to name-calling, we lose.
  1166. reply
  1167. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1168.  
  1169. "Arguing with idiots is much like arguing with a pigeon--no matter what points you make, they shit on the board, knock over the pieces, and then strut around as if they've won."
  1170. reply
  1171. ≡ 1w, 4d ago anonymous
  1172.  
  1173.     That's one of the reasons why I prefer to take things point by point
  1174.  
  1175. Lets have you respond to only one point then !
  1176. reply
  1177. ≡ 1w, 4d ago anonymous
  1178.  
  1179. A fucking pure and obvious dodge to not have to respond to something that shows you up as the deceiver you are !
  1180.  
  1181. He takes apart every point you make, that's why you wont/cant respond, do you feel silly ?
  1182.  
  1183. You are fucked up in so many ways realist !
  1184. reply
  1185. message by ImGonnaKIllU   (marked as spam)
  1186. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Anonymizer
  1187.  
  1188. No, Realist--you've made the claim--you provide the proof. I'll be happy to destroy your faux-arguments point by point if that's what you wish. You say that child/adult intimacy is inherently harmful by nature--despite your supposed nature as a pedophile, so YOU back up that claim.
  1189. reply
  1190. ≡ 2w, 5d ago Realist
  1191.  
  1192. The main reason why adult/child sex is inherently harmful is rooted in the idea that the child cannot consent to the relationship. A child has no prior experience dealing with possible negative consequences such as acquiring an STD or becoming pregnant. Beyond that, a child isn't mature enough to have fully developed their own personal set of values, resulting in possible conflict between past acts and future morals.
  1193.  
  1194. Until a child can assess the risks associated with casual sex, understand what it means to become involved in a sexual relationship, and develop their own set of values related to sex, they cannot truly consent.
  1195. reply
  1196. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1197.  
  1198. Unfortunately, this argument holds no weight, because either consent is ironclad, and you only have the mental faculty to consent at a certain point to everything, or it's entirely fluid, and, being fluid, is subject to the whims of those that make the laws. You and those like you seem to be all right with allowing the child to consent to a lollipop, an ice cream, a trip to a fast food restaurant, trip to the beach, trip to the fair, or other such things, all of which can carry potentially EXTREME risks:
  1199.  
  1200. Lollipop: Child could choke, injure themselves on the sharp pieces of lollipop that break off as they chew it, damage their teeth from biting hard candy, tooth decay
  1201.  
  1202. Ice cream: Child could choke on cone, tooth decay, food poisioning
  1203.  
  1204. Trip to the beach: Fish attack/Shark attack, coral reef injury/rock injury, broken glass on beach injury, drowning, cramps, water inhalation, sand-related injuries (chafing of skin, burning of eyes), sunburn, abduction
  1205.  
  1206. Trip to restaurant: Food poisoning, other food-related injuries (hair in food, bone in supposedly boneless food)
  1207.  
  1208. Trip to fair: Are we starting to see a pattern yet, Realist?
  1209.  
  1210. I could argue this in several ways:
  1211.  
  1212. A) A child is not aware of these attendant risks, and therefore, it is the adult caretaker's responsibility to keep the child safe from such dangers, as they would in the case of adult/child sex, being protected, etc.
  1213.  
  1214. B)The benefits outweigh the risks as the risks are statistically minimal.
  1215.  
  1216. We do this all the time with our children--expose them to potentially dangerous acts, but because we're their protectors, and they are our responsibility, we watch out for them and protect them from danger. Why is child/adult sex any different? Why is this such a different issue? I'll tell you one thing--who in here has mentioned penetration? Everone who argues against child/adult relations seems to think that the "logical" conclusion is full penetrative sex. Tell me, do you think that would work on, say, a 9-year-old? I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I don't even get off on penetration. I'd be using my hands, toys, and mouth if I ever got the chance, so that takes pregnancy and 95% of STDs out of the equation--and then the other 5% because I'm clean anyway.
  1217.  
  1218. "Until a child can assess the risks..."
  1219. Again, what risks? There aren't any. And since you're so hung up on consent, why don't you try blowing your horn around the geriatrics, and mentally ill? They have sex just fine. Further, what's all this tripe about values? A child has just as many values as an adult has, and has them just as deeply. The simple difference is that they do not have as large a vocabulary with which to express it in such loquacious terms as we adults find commonplace. That's it.
  1220. reply
  1221. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1222.  
  1223. Really, I wish you would just read the thread before recycling what has already been discussed. We're talking about long-term effects from adult-child sex here, not from events in everyday life. Sure, a kid could be eaten by a shark or choke on a pretzel, but to suggest that those possible outcomes are proof that adult-child sex carries no significant risk is clearly misdirection.
  1224.  
  1225. For you to boldly state that there are no risks involved in adult-child sex is pure denial.
  1226. reply
  1227. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1228.  
  1229. So death isn't long-term? Good to know. And it's also good to know you're incapable of reading my points. Your point was that a child can't consent (to sex). However, my response is that we allow them to consent to things on a daily basis (when you take the whole of the population) that are, as a whole, far more dangerous. I have never said that adult/child sexual relations carries no risk. But for you to state that every sexual act between an adult and a minor is equally harmful is just as much in denial.
  1230.  
  1231. Rape? That's harmful no matter WHAT the age of the participants. Forced/accidental pregnancy? It's the same thing. STDs? I mean seriously, where are you getting this from? That's all harmful, no matter how old or young you are. You seem to want to paint this caricature of a pedophile that's a drooling, smelly homunculus of a man that does nothing but pin impressionable little angels down and force his seed into them. That sounds an awful lot like the argument that the religious Right in my country makes, when, if you've spent any kind of time here at all, you HAVE to know that that's nowhere NEAR the truth.
  1232. reply
  1233. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1234.  
  1235. Just 3 posts ago, you said "Again, what risks? There aren't any."
  1236.  
  1237. And now, you said "I have never said that adult/child sexual relations carries no risk."
  1238.  
  1239. Can you clear that up for me?
  1240. reply
  1241. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1242.  
  1243. Nice dodge. Why don't you try to refute the rest of my point, rather than arguing semantics with me?
  1244. reply
  1245. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1246.  
  1247. I would prefer to think that I was speaking with someone who wasn't just pulling statements out of a hat. It should be easy to clear up if it was just semantics. Clear it up and we can continue.
  1248. reply
  1249. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1250.  
  1251. Erf. This is getting annoying. You can be assured we'll continue--but I am travelling tonight and will not be back online until much later.
  1252. reply
  1253. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1254.  
  1255. To be specific--to not "Pull statements out of a hat", as you so like to claim I am doing, there are no risks associated with child/adult sexual relations that are not also associated with child/child sexual relations or adult/adult sexual relations. There are no "special" risks, other than a matter of potential physical incompatibility, e.g. size differences. In terms of STDs, you should ALWAYS protect yourself, no matter who you're going to have sex with. And you should attempt to stay clean. Get checked regularly. And, if you HAVE an STD, then it's your responsibility to be open about that, no matter your partner. In terms of pregnancy, again, that is the responsibility of, primarily, I would think, the man, to ensure that he is protecting the woman or girl against accidental impregnation. However, if we're talking preteens, that's not biologically possible yet. At least preteens who are pre-puberty.
  1256.  
  1257. In matters of force and consent, as discussed in the OP, there will always be men who force their way on women, and this is, and should be, illegal, regardless of the age of participants. Anything else you don't like?
  1258. reply
  1259. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1260.  
  1261. We've already been over this. You say there's no difference between adult-child sex and child-child sex. While I say there is because of the significant social stigma associated with adult-child sex. You can either accept the fact that we disagree or you can continue to argue about it - makes no difference to me.
  1262.  
  1263. And on your point of risks involved, the wide majority of children don't even know they should ask a sex partner about STDs, let alone understand what STDs are. Kids know ABCs, not STDs. An adult's acceptance of responsibility for the matter is not a substitute for a child's informed consent.
  1264. reply
  1265. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1266.  
  1267. You've done this on every point that I've made in this debate: you've picked on one phrase that you either disagree with, think you can argue, or want to nitpick the semantics of, while completely ignoring the larger point.
  1268.  
  1269. However, again, as MANY f us have stated ITT about this very point, it is NOT THE CHILD'S RESPONSIBILITY to be aware of STDs and other things of that nature. It is the adult's responsibility--much like in a situation between geriatrics or the mentally ill, which have been pointed out many times that they are allowed to have sex without any sort of restriction. If the adult lover really loves the child with which they are in a relationship, then they will do everything that they can to protect the child from any harm resulting from that relationship.
  1270. reply
  1271. ≡ 2w, 3d ago anonymous
  1272.  
  1273. Do you ever post anything but bullshit?
  1274. reply
  1275. ≡ 2w, 4d ago anonymous
  1276.  
  1277.     The main reason why adult/child sex is inherently harmful is rooted in the idea that the child cannot consent to the relationship. A child has no prior experience dealing with possible negative consequences such as acquiring an STD or becoming pregnant. Beyond that, a child isn't mature enough to have fully developed their own personal set of values, resulting in possible conflict between past acts and future morals.
  1278.  
  1279. I believe any rational realistic person would agree that the actual possibility of a child acquiring an actual STD is so low as to be irrelevant for the purposes of using the possibility of it as a fundamental barrier to consent and as for becoming pregnant, it is impossible for pre-teens so its also irrelevant.
  1280.  
  1281. Dealing with the remainder of your main reasons why adult/child sex is inherently harmful then...
  1282.  
  1283. Realist you have stated many times in different ways that in your opinion the 'social stigma' of adult/child intimacy is a very real and unavoidable danger to children at some stage in time after the intimacy has occurred.
  1284.  
  1285. Again as I have quoted above, you replay that concept by this time stating "possible conflict between past acts and future morals"
  1286.  
  1287. In other words I believe that you see 'future morals' as being linked to and built from the pervasive effect of the 'social stigma' that exists. Certainly I would be surprised if you wanted to argue that they were not extremely entangled.
  1288.  
  1289. In fact as the thread has developed, you seem to have fallen back on the concept of future harm derived of 'social stigma' as being your 'last stand', a position that you are absolutely committed to and believe to be a irrefutable fact.
  1290.  
  1291. I cannot disagree with you that it is indeed a fact that a child may develop a possible conflict between past acts and future morals and that such a situation could or even would be emotionally detrimental (keep in mind though Bruce Rind et al's Study that you are familiar with that proves only 4% of boys and 18% of girls self-reported any lasting harm).
  1292.  
  1293. The thing about it though is that to attempt to somehow mitigate the possibility of that detriment ever occurring (the damage caused by societies 'social stigma') by attempting to change pedos (as you do by your argumentation here and the world in general does by default I.E jailing pedos) is the equivalent of slashing at the branches of a tree instead of chopping at the base of the trunk.
  1294.  
  1295. The pedos are the branches, but it is the 'social stigma' that is the trunk of the tree.
  1296.  
  1297. I believe that you have agreed in prior threads that it is not the physical acts themselves that are inherently harmful, but that the harm comes about as a secondary harm later when the child is taught to re-interpret the experience as something evil, that they are damaged, etc etc (If you deny that you have agreed with this I will locate the text where you have indeed agreed).
  1298.  
  1299. Therefore, ultimately to ever realistically even start to wind down the potential for harm, it is society, specifically societies 'social stigma' that needs to be targeted and modified, not pedos as such.
  1300.  
  1301. It is a simple matter of getting to the truthful root of the problem, rather than slashing at the branches.
  1302. reply
  1303. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1304.  
  1305. Nice stuff! Too bad he'll never reply because you're an "anonymous" poster...
  1306.  
  1307. Hey, Realist! Fun fact for you: Unless you provided real personal information when joining this site, we're ALL anonymous posters. The only difference between the two of us and the poster I'm replying to is that we have colored names, and he doesn't.
  1308. reply
  1309. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Realist
  1310.  
  1311. Off-topic. I'd be happy to share my opinion on this matter in the thread about limiting posting to registered users only.
  1312. reply
  1313. ≡ 2w, 4d ago Anonymizer
  1314.  
  1315. "Off-topic."
  1316. Code for "I'm too lazy to actually try and debate his argument, so I'm going to parrot what I said earlier ITT about anonymous posters."
  1317. Self-proclaimed full-on antis are better arguers than you are, Realist.
  1318. reply
  1319. ≡ 2w, 3d ago anewaccount
  1320.  
  1321. I will repost the article for him so that realist has to respond to it...... here it is below.
  1322.  
  1323.     The main reason why adult/child sex is inherently harmful is rooted in the idea that the child cannot consent to the relationship. A child has no prior experience dealing with possible negative consequences such as acquiring an STD or becoming pregnant. Beyond that, a child isn't mature enough to have fully developed their own personal set of values, resulting in possible conflict between past acts and future morals.
  1324.  
  1325. I believe any rational realistic person would agree that the actual possibility of a child acquiring an actual STD is so low as to be irrelevant for the purposes of using the possibility of it as a fundamental barrier to consent and as for becoming pregnant, it is impossible for pre-teens so its also irrelevant.
  1326.  
  1327. Dealing with the remainder of your main reasons why adult/child sex is inherently harmful then...
  1328.  
  1329. Realist you have stated many times in different ways that in your opinion the 'social stigma' of adult/child intimacy is a very real and unavoidable danger to children at some stage in time after the intimacy has occurred.
  1330.  
  1331. Again as I have quoted above, you replay that concept by this time stating "possible conflict between past acts and future morals"
  1332.  
  1333. In other words I believe that you see 'future morals' as being linked to and built from the pervasive effect of the 'social stigma' that exists. Certainly I would be surprised if you wanted to argue that they were not extremely entangled.
  1334.  
  1335. In fact as the thread has developed, you seem to have fallen back on the concept of future harm derived of 'social stigma' as being your 'last stand', a position that you are absolutely committed to and believe to be a irrefutable fact.
  1336.  
  1337. I cannot disagree with you that it is indeed a fact that a child may develop a possible conflict between past acts and future morals and that such a situation could or even would be emotionally detrimental (keep in mind though Bruce Rind et al's Study that you are familiar with that proves only 4% of boys and 18% of girls self-reported any lasting harm).
  1338.  
  1339. The thing about it though is that to attempt to somehow mitigate the possibility of that detriment ever occurring (the damage caused by societies 'social stigma') by attempting to change pedos (as you do by your argumentation here and the world in general does by default I.E jailing pedos) is the equivalent of slashing at the branches of a tree instead of chopping at the base of the trunk.
  1340.  
  1341. The pedos are the branches, but it is the 'social stigma' that is the trunk of the tree.
  1342.  
  1343. I believe that you have agreed in prior threads that it is not the physical acts themselves that are inherently harmful, but that the harm comes about as a secondary harm later when the child is taught to re-interpret the experience as something evil, that they are damaged, etc etc (If you deny that you have agreed with this I will locate the text where you have indeed agreed).
  1344.  
  1345. Therefore, ultimately to ever realistically even start to wind down the potential for harm, it is society, specifically societies 'social stigma' that needs to be targeted and modified, not pedos as such.
  1346.  
  1347. It is a simple matter of getting to the truthful root of the problem, rather than slashing at the branches.
  1348. reply
  1349. ≡ 2w, 1d ago anonymous
  1350.  
  1351. Anyone else ever notice that realist ignores strong/potent arguments like he has here in regards to the above post that tend to disprove his opinion on child/adult sex ?
  1352.  
  1353. The above post is a direct question to realist and no response whatsoever has been forthcoming from him even though realist was responding just 1 post ago above in this little sub thread.
  1354.  
  1355. He has also posted after making his above post in the thread called "Please ban account "Realist" - It is a security threat" in the general forum so he has been around the forums lately.
  1356. reply
  1357. ≡ 2w, 1d ago anonymous
  1358.  
  1359. Yes, I have noticed !
  1360.  
  1361. He has also failed to respond to the OP in the thread called "Proof child protection workers, therapists etc are the abusers !"
  1362.  
  1363. It looks like when it is his turn to respond and when he cannot come up with a reasonable sounding answer/argument to the issue in discussion that he just hides and ignores the thread !
  1364.  
  1365. Is this true realist or are you going to prove me wrong and respond in the appropriate places ?
  1366.  
  1367. They are both posted by people with user accounts so you really have no excuses left to not answer them.
  1368. reply
  1369. ≡ 2w, 2d ago anonymous
  1370.  
  1371. so called "realist" troll must be banned
  1372. reply
  1373. ≡ 5d, 9h ago anonymous
  1374.  
  1375. No replies from 'realist' when many exchanges were ongoing in this thread involving him.
  1376.  
  1377. It would appear that 'realist' has run away and hidden because all his arguments have been thoroughly destroyed !
  1378.  
  1379. What a loser !
  1380. reply
  1381. ≡ 5d, 1h ago Athletic
  1382.  
  1383. It's hard to argue a point that doesn't make much scientific sense and the only reason it is "valid" is because society as a whole makes it so (through indoctrination, brainwashing, lies, etc.) It has been done to keep down blacks, women, and now youth and pedophiles.
  1384. reply
  1385. ≡ 2d, 10h ago anonymous
  1386.  
  1387. Is Realist dead? Hasn't posted in a few days. I sure hope he's dead.
  1388.  
  1389.     Off-topic. I'd be happy to share my opinion on this matter in the thread about limiting posting to registered users only.
  1390.  
  1391. reply
  1392. message by ImGonnaKIllU   (marked as spam)
  1393. markdown help
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