Madoka and NGE discussion

Madoka and NGE discussion

 

(07:38:31) ‹+Kyoubro› I'm not enjoying it so far, fsdfdsf. But that may just be me.

(07:38:44) ‹+Kyoubro› I was wondering if it changed its style later on.

(07:46:38) ‹+fsdfdsf› I really shouldn't be in the Madoka thread

(07:46:49) ‹+Kyoubro› Why, what's going on?

(07:47:21) ‹+fsdfdsf› I'm not very far into this 419 post thread but there's more comparing the two movie sales to Evangelion sales

(07:48:10) ‹AstronautBear› why does damian lewis always play american characters

(07:48:14) ‹AstronautBear› stop it damn it you're british

(07:50:45) ‹%dongfix› http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjaxyqDZo8c

(07:53:01) ‹+fsdfdsf› Alright I'm halfway through and it's the same argument it's been for the last 6 days I'm sure

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(07:57:18) ‹+fsdfdsf› Yep, caught up. I saw this thread on Wenesday

(08:01:44)  » Join: moots ‹moots@the.run›

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(08:04:27) ‹+fsdfdsf› I have to say one good thing about this thread though, they aren't reporting the shit out of each other for comments I don't like

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(08:18:22) ‹+Kyoubro› Why are faggots comparing movie sales?

(08:18:25) ‹+Kyoubro› Why does it matter?

(08:19:29) ‹+Bloom› because if the thing you are a fan of sells better than the thing some other faggot is a fan of it clearly makes you a superior person

(08:19:35) ‹+fsdfdsf› Because built up rage over comments people have determined in their minds to not be troll comments. "Madoka will be the next Evangelion"

(08:20:47) ‹+Bloom› i know that was just an example and imma let you finish but madoka is not even close to being as good as NGE

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(08:21:24) ‹+fsdfdsf› You use look that comment up on the archive Bloom

(08:21:37) ‹+Bloom› what

(08:21:40) ‹+Bloom› >you use look

(08:21:56) ‹+fsdfdsf› Should*

(08:22:08) ‹+fsdfdsf› My fingers are every where today

(08:22:28) ‹+Bloom› remind me to not shake your hand if we ever meet

(08:22:32) ‹+Bloom› bazinga.

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(08:22:53) ‹+Kyoubro› Oh, he'll shake a lot more than your hand, if you catch my drift.

(08:22:53) ‹+fsdfdsf› well played Bloom

(08:22:55) ‹+fsdfdsf› well played

(08:23:30) ‹+Kyoubro› What did you like about NGE, Bloom?

(08:23:44) ‹+Bloom› its unquantifiable

(08:23:59) ‹+Kyoubro› Well.

(08:24:03) ‹+Kyoubro› That says a lot.

(08:24:12) ‹+Bloom› i liked madoka too though

(08:24:16) ‹+Bloom› and i couldn't really say why

(08:24:25) ‹+Bloom› i just like things that are good, but i like nge more than madoka

(08:24:31) ‹+Bloom› so clearly nge is better, right?

(08:24:42) ‹+fsdfdsf› Everyone knows my opinion

(08:25:09) ‹+Bloom› but seriously because of that homu in the back car seat farting image i can never lookat her and not be disgusted

(08:25:28) ‹+fsdfdsf› wwwww

(08:25:34) ‹+Kyoubro› Well, I'm fairly clear on what I liked about NGE. The basic shell of the plot was really simple (aside from instrumentality, which was executed so poorly on Anno's part that it seriously drags down the show), the monsters of the week were entertaining, and the characters were memorable.

(08:26:04) ‹+fsdfdsf› That is very fair kyou

(08:26:08) ‹+Bloom› 2deep4u

(08:26:32) ‹+Bloom› if u dint understand giant rei the first time u watched eva u must b retarted

(08:26:37) ‹+fsdfdsf› although I thought the instrumentality was fine

(08:26:39) ‹+Kyoubro› I'll be perfectly honest. Instrumentality was a clusterfuck that Anno should never have been allowed to even think about.

(08:26:42) ‹+fsdfdsf› But that is fair

(08:26:54) ‹+Kyoubro› It's the Midochlorians of NGE.

(08:27:01) ‹+fsdfdsf› lol

(08:27:08) ‹+Kyoubro› Well, okay, not THAT far.

(08:27:13) ‹+Bloom› kyoubro what, instrumentality is the main goal and motivation of all of the major events of the series

(08:27:26) ‹+Kyoubro› Instrumentality COULD have been good, except Anno fucked it up horrifically.

(08:27:53) ‹+Bloom› if genji wasnt trying to creat instrumentality there would be no evangelions

(08:27:55) ‹+Kyoubro› It's actually impossible to know anything about what's going on without outside material.

(08:28:16) ‹+Kyoubro› Oh, you can always substitute things in. Any good storywriter can tell the same story ten different ways.

(08:28:26) ‹+Kyoubro› (number pulled out of my hat for hyperbolic purposes)

(08:29:53) ‹+Bloom› i disagree but its not really important

(08:30:07) ‹+Bloom› lets talk about how this stupid bitch just blocked me from seeing morena baccarains tits on homeland

(08:30:14) ‹+Bloom› fucking kids coming home from school early bullshit

(08:32:26) ‹+Kyoubro› Oh, and the only other problem was how NGE's transition from monster-of-the-week to unifying plotline was done not as gracefully as it could have been done. Earlier on, it spent a bit too much time setting the plot aside, and it shows in the last four or five episodes.

(08:32:34) ‹+Kyoubro› Another anime with that same problem is Darker than Black.

(08:32:41) ‹+Kyoubro› Except Darker than Black had it many times worse.

(08:32:57) ‹+Kyoubro› They tried to fit literally every piece of plot into the last episode of each season.

(08:32:58) ‹+Bloom› i think "monster of the week" is an incorrect explanation of the angels

(08:33:03) ‹+Kyoubro› I exaggerate, but only slightly.

(08:33:08) ‹+Kyoubro› No, it isn't.

(08:33:11) ‹+Bloom› MOW implies self contained stories

(08:33:31) ‹+Bloom› or at least stories that have only minor relevance to the overall plot

(08:33:32) ‹+fsdfdsf› The second season of DtB doesn't even matter.

(08:33:35) ‹+fsdfdsf› It's not cannon

(08:33:36) ‹+Kyoubro› Monster of the week is just a description of a series of enemies faced and defeated one at a time.

(08:33:39) ‹+Kyoubro› >cannon

(08:33:40) ‹+Kyoubro› boom

(08:33:44) ‹+fsdfdsf› canon

(08:34:01) ‹+Kyoubro› And MotW is not a bad thing.

(08:34:11) ‹+Kyoubro› JoJo relies on MotW heavily, and it's great.

(08:34:13) ‹AstronautBear› okay so damian lewis is some kind of terrorist agent

(08:34:21) ‹AstronautBear› why would they show that in the very first episode

(08:34:30) ‹+Bloom› and anyway madoka did the same thing with the witches, except it spent a lot more time explaining how the universe worked and less focusing on the characters themselves

(08:34:31) ‹+Kyoubro› The only problem is if they aren't being careful with where they fit the plot in.

(08:34:31) ‹AstronautBear› that seems like something they should leave out for a while so it's SHOCKING

(08:35:03) ‹+Bloom› correct me if im wrong but they dont actually show any concrete evidence in the first ep

(08:35:06) ‹+Bloom› its just heavily hinted at

(08:35:11) ‹+Bloom› could be a red herring

(08:35:21) ‹+Kyoubro› Um...

(08:35:29) ‹+Kyoubro› Not quite.

(08:35:39) ‹AstronautBear› well the dude beats his buddy to death

(08:35:40) ‹+Kyoubro› The other thing is that the enemies are defeated regularly.

(08:35:46) ‹AstronautBear› and is like crying when abu nazir is there

(08:35:51) ‹AstronautBear› and he pets him like a sad guy

(08:35:52) ‹+fsdfdsf› I thought the monster of the week was well done in Evangelion. without it the series would have been boring as fuck and nothing would have happened. The religious symbolism is thrown in because lol anno and he admits it but the instrumentality isn't that bad imo.

(08:35:55) ‹+Kyoubro› In NGE, one Angel is killed every episode, almost.

(08:35:59) ‹AstronautBear› there there, it's okay to beat your friend to death

(08:36:12) ‹+Kyoubro› It's a regular deal.

(08:36:47) ‹+Kyoubro› Whereas in Madoka, the witches are kind of a background thing that show up every so often. We only saw like four or five over the course of the entire anime, and two of those were in episode 10.

(08:37:06) ‹+Kyoubro› And most of all, the episode never focuses on how they defeat the witches.

(08:37:21) ‹AlBorland[w]› nerds

(08:37:24) ‹+Kyoubro› The Angel-relevant episodes of NGE are all about killing the relevant Angel.

(08:37:41) ‹+Bloom› there are 26 episodes of NGE and 15 angels

(08:37:53) ‹+Kyoubro› Similarly, each "monster" in JoJo gets suitable time devoted to how to beat it.

(08:38:37) ‹AstronautBear› yeah what AlBorland said

(08:38:49) ‹+Kyoubro› The only two witches to have anything remotely close to "how to beat" are Charlotte and Walpurgisnacht, which were shown and not told.

(08:38:57) ‹+Bloom› this chat is no better than /a/ except slightly more polite

(08:39:00) ‹+Bloom› lol

(08:39:06) ‹+fsdfdsf› lol

(08:39:31) ‹+fsdfdsf› I like the more polite

(08:39:35) ‹+fsdfdsf› it keeps me in check

(08:39:59) ‹+Kyoubro› And NGE's MotW was nice, I agree. But they kinda fucked up with how they were fitting the plot in, which ended up with the last few episodes being too rushed to get everything in.

(08:40:20) ‹+fsdfdsf› Which is why EoE was made

(08:40:24) ‹+fsdfdsf› And even then people were still upset

(08:40:34) ‹+Kyoubro› Yeah, because it failed to fix the basic problems.

(08:40:42) ‹+fsdfdsf› Well now we have rebuild

(08:40:46) ‹+fsdfdsf› lol

(08:40:52) ‹+Kyoubro› Namely, that Instrumentality is a really complex deal and should have been focused on for at least half the anime.

(08:41:23) ‹+Bloom› well the last few episodes being fucked up didn thave anything to do with the quality of the writing or story, they just ran out of money and couldnt finish it how they wanted

(08:41:38) ‹+Bloom› instrumentality isnt THAT complex

(08:41:39) ‹+Kyoubro› At the end of a story, you should never be questioning WHAT happened. Or at least, you should be able to figure it out fairly quickly.

(08:41:49) ‹+RapeApe9k› the fact that instrumentality was explained poorly is probably why the series was so successful. people watched it and talk about it incessantly just to figure out WTF is going on.

(08:41:55) ‹+Bloom› the idea is to destroy the physical bodies of all humans so everyone can just be part of a shared conciousness

(08:41:59) ‹+RapeApe9k› if it was spelled out explicitly, then it wouldn't be as interesting.

(08:42:03) ‹+Bloom› it shouldn't take 10+ episodes to explain it

(08:42:08) ‹+Kyoubro› No, the last two episodes weren't the plot clusterfuck. They did a lot better than most of the series.

(08:42:16) ‹+fsdfdsf› I never had problems figuring out what happened at the end, the things I missed were small things throughout the show

(08:42:21) ‹+Bloom› yeah

(08:42:38) ‹+Kyoubro› It was the last five or so episodes where they tried to fit all the plot in.

(08:43:19) ‹+Kyoubro› And instrumentality IS that complex, when a lot of the basic history just hasn't been explained.

(08:43:26) ‹+fsdfdsf› The series got rushed indeed because lol no funding but you can't fault them for it because it's out of their hands. Considering that rebuild has the funding we should see a much better excuted series.

(08:43:54) ‹+Kyoubro› pr0x, unless they initially planned for another cour, funding has nothing to do with it.

(08:44:19) ‹+Kyoubro› Again, I'm talking about the last five episodes, and the story content, not the visual content.

(08:44:19) ‹+fsdfdsf› They might have planned for another cour but didn't get it

(08:44:30) ‹+Kyoubro› Well, we can guess all we like.

(08:44:55) ‹+Bloom› instrumentality isn't really that complex, the idea of it. if you want a realistic scientific explanation as to how it was possible or how shinji got out of it you are watching the wrong medium

(08:45:19) ‹+Kyoubro› It's not about a scientific explanation. It's that instrumentality was pretty much thrust upon us over the last few episodes.

(08:45:20) ‹+Bloom› and im sure theres probably some japanese equivalent of the history channel that has done a documentary on the science of NGE

(08:45:29) ‹+Kyoubro› Do you remember when we saw Gendo with Adam in his hand, during the anime?

(08:45:39) ‹+Kyoubro› They hadn't explained that at ALL.

(08:45:42) ‹+fsdfdsf› The last 4 episodes have a directors cut have you watched it?

(08:45:49) ‹+fsdfdsf› I'll be honest and say I haven't yet

(08:45:49) ‹+Kyoubro› I had to look that up online to see what the fuck happened.

(08:45:55) ‹+Kyoubro› No, I have not.

(08:46:19) ‹+fsdfdsf› I have them downloaded so maybe they fixed what you didn't like in those episodes

(08:46:27) ‹+Bloom› im just saying i pretty much understood instrumentality after watching just the original series and EoE and thinking about it for a day or so

(08:46:30) ‹+Kyoubro› It wasn't explained WHY he had Adam in his hand, that it was Adam in his hand at all, or indeed anything else about it.

(08:46:38) ‹+Bloom› yeah it could have been explained better but i think it was fine

(08:46:52) ‹+Bloom› because really the idea is not that complex nor are the motivations behind why genji wanted it

(08:47:43) ‹+Bloom› i think i watched the directors cut

(08:47:44) ‹+Kyoubro› The thing that annoys me about NGE is that all the discussion is, as RapeApe said, about figuring out what the fuck actually happened and not at all about the characters' motivations or anything else about it.

(08:47:50) ‹+Bloom› i watched the platinum version dvdrips

(08:47:55) ‹+Bloom› which is supposed to be the best version

(08:48:11)  » Join: Azatsu ‹Fever@2097F449.349237E.A3870841.IP›

(08:48:17) ‹+Kyoubro› That just says "poor execution" to me.

(08:49:04) ‹+fsdfdsf› I disagree. When you can have debates about that in my opinion that makes discussing it more fun. I've also seen them talk about characters motivations in the same threads they talk about what happened.

(08:49:10) ‹+Bloom› idk man, all im saying is it wasnt an issue for me personally

(08:49:20) ‹+Kyoubro› All right.

(08:49:55) ‹+Kyoubro› It just seems to me that the missing pieces of plot in NGE were left there by mistake, and not engineered.

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(08:50:30) ‹+Kyoubro› And, well, it looks like the work of an extremely talented amateur, but an amateur nonetheless.

(08:50:42) ‹+Kyoubro› That said? Enjoyed it. Want to watch it again someday.

(08:51:48) ‹+Bloom› but you know what, an imperfect work by an amateur is more interesting and discussionw orthy than a perfectly executed show by a professional

(08:51:51)  » Join: dongfix ‹~kjj@dong.engineer›

(08:51:51)  » ChanServ ‹+h› dongfix

(08:51:58) ‹+Kyoubro› Why is that?

(08:51:59) ‹+Bloom› because theres nothing left to discuss in the latter and so you end up forgetting about it

(08:52:04) ‹+Kyoubro› Um.

(08:52:11) ‹+Kyoubro› That's about as far from the truth as you can get.

(08:52:26) ‹+RapeApe9k› I'd take NGE over the vast majority of higher production value anime these days.

(08:52:27) ‹+Kyoubro› A masterful work is noted by carefully leaving things to discuss.

(08:52:33) ‹+Kyoubro› >production value

(08:52:36) ‹+Bloom› well the forgetting about it part is wrong

(08:52:39) ‹+Bloom› but like

(08:52:48) ‹+Kyoubro› And this is where it becomes clear that you guys don't understand what I just said.

(08:52:51) ‹%dongfix› i am currently basking in the heat of a halogen heater ^.^

(08:52:52) ‹+Bloom› i fucking loved planetes and i cant think of anything i'd want to change to make it better

(08:52:56) ‹+Bloom› but theres nothign to discuss about it

(08:53:01) ‹+Bloom› theres nothing to debate

(08:53:03) ‹%dongfix› oh god it's so good

(08:53:04) ‹%dongfix› it's like

(08:53:07) ‹%dongfix› 4c in my room

(08:53:12)  » +i7MUSHROOM-zZz is now known as +i7MUSHROOM-afk

(08:53:20) ‹+Kyoubro› And believe it or not, that's a serious flaw.

(08:53:24)  » %dongfix is now known as %dongfix|basking

(08:53:42) ‹+Kyoubro› A lot of storytelling isn't about what you say, it's about what you DON'T say.

(08:54:01) ‹+Kyoubro› As a simple example: "And they lived happily ever after."

(08:54:15) ‹+Kyoubro› That is the fundamental example of what to do as a good storywriter.

(08:54:34) ‹+Bloom› ok im going to sound like a dick here but i have no idea how we got into this conversation and i genuinely dont care enough about what we are discussing to continue it, im probably wrong because i havent really given this stuff much thought and clearly not as much as you. so im just going to bow out

(08:54:43) ‹+Kyoubro› It allows the audience to suppose things that may have happened-

(08:54:50) ‹+Kyoubro› Okay, I was just getting into lecture mode.

(08:55:07) ‹+RapeApe9k› i think the genesis of the conversation was NGE vs. Madoka

(08:55:15) ‹+Kyoubro› But seriously, the best stories leave "gaps" in them.

(08:55:28) ‹+Bloom› yeah it was my fault rapeape

(08:55:39) ‹+Bloom› i just had to say it

(08:55:43) ‹+Kyoubro› Places where it isn't clear whether what a character did was right or wrong, and places where you're not entirely sure what happened.

(08:56:12) ‹+Kyoubro› Most importantly, they have to be deliberate, or else things will eventually start to fall apart.

(08:56:24) ‹+RapeApe9k› While Madoka might very well have a decent story, there's no way I could watch such a show for more than 2-3 minutes without wanting to tear my eyes out.

(08:56:33) ‹+Bloom› actually now that you say that, planetes did have characters and moments like that, the problem is everything worked out for pretty much everyone in the end, so discussing their motivation is kind of pointless

(08:56:44) ‹+Bloom› lol rapeape

(08:56:49) ‹+Kyoubro› Well, that's a part of it.

(08:56:54) ‹+Kyoubro› >hating wideface

(08:56:57) ‹+Kyoubro› >>>/v/

(08:57:06) ‹+fsdfdsf› I'm with RapeApe9k. I watched it twice and hated it the second time more than the first

(08:57:12) ‹+RapeApe9k› I have essentially everything that focuses on little schoolgirls.

(08:57:22) ‹+RapeApe9k› *hate

(08:57:36) ‹+fsdfdsf› Now I disagree there wtih RapeApe9k but that's his opinion

(08:58:00) ‹+Bloom› i watched it once and i enjoyed it for the mystery and the deconstruction aspects

(08:58:04) ‹+RapeApe9k› I understand I am in the minority here, and won't push the matter further.

(08:58:05) ‹+Kyoubro› Nah, a big part is also having an ending that isn't entirely one way or the other. NGE's ending was, to put it simply, wicked strange.

(08:58:08) ‹+Kyoubro› >deconstruction

(08:58:11) ‹+Kyoubro› That word.

(08:58:14) ‹+Bloom› that said i didnt like the character designs or the animations

(08:58:20) ‹+Bloom› i just mean that it subverted some tropes kyoubro

(08:58:22) ‹+Kyoubro› Thaaaaaaaat word.

(08:58:38) ‹+fsdfdsf› That word causes fights on /a/

(08:58:40) ‹+fsdfdsf› but it's ok here

(08:58:41) ‹+Bloom› but i also didn't like a lot of the character designs in eva and the animation is shit

(08:58:42) ‹+fsdfdsf› lol

(08:58:55) ‹+Bloom› seriously i was about to scream in the second or third episode when shinji is at the train station

(08:59:03) ‹+Bloom› and misato pulls up in her car

(08:59:06) ‹+Kyoubro› I don't really care about animation, just like I don't care about graphics in video games.

(08:59:13) ‹+Bloom› and its just like a full 2 minutes of still frame with cicadas

(08:59:16) ‹+Bloom› PURE AGONY

(08:59:30) ‹+Kyoubro› The only way it can be a problem is if it's SO BAD that I get distracted.

(08:59:39) ‹+Bloom› idk man, graphics are probably one of the least important parts but its impossible to not care at all about them

(08:59:41) ‹+Kyoubro› Oh, that's an example of poor directing.

(08:59:59) ‹+Bloom› if a game is otherwise really fun but just has shitty graphics you're going to notice and its going to affect the experience at least slightly

(09:00:04) ‹+Bloom› nier is a perfect example

(09:00:12) ‹+Kyoubro› Anno has no clue how to really get by on a low budget. He only managed to figure out how to get by on no budget at all.

(09:00:25) ‹+Kyoubro› Compare Shinbo, who's used to having a budget of coffee and cigarettes.

(09:00:36) ‹+Bloom› because of the low budget theres a lot of revisiting old areas and some of the environments are really bland, still one of my favourite games this gen but it would have been a lot better with higher production values

(09:01:10) ‹+Kyoubro› He makes heavy use of still frames not because he doesn't have the money to do anything else, but because he knows how to carefully work them into a narrative without causing any problems.

(09:01:26) ‹+Bloom› who is shinbo and what has he directed

(09:01:32) ‹+Kyoubro› Madoka, for one.

(09:01:41) ‹+Bloom› 9 times out of 10 theres no excuse for a still frame to be used except it couldn't afford to be animated

(09:01:56) ‹+Bloom› i forget what i was watching the other day but there where like 4 or 5 still frames in a row that were like, kids playing sports

(09:02:05) ‹+Bloom› and the only reason they weren't animated is because it would cost more money

(09:02:16) ‹+Kyoubro› You may note that a lot of the scenes in Madoka are a series of still frames showing different scenes. This is one of the simplest and yet cleverest ways of keeping up with the action without wasting hella money.

(09:02:28) ‹Anikitan› bakemonogatari was really good for its use of still frames

(09:02:34) ‹Anikitan› also i love dialog anime

(09:02:39) ‹+Kyoubro› Guess who directed Bakemonogatari?

(09:02:42) ‹+Kyoubro› One guess.

(09:02:46) ‹+Bloom› i dont think madoka's still frames bothered me but its been long enough sinc ei watched it that i barely remember any specific scenes that were minor enough to have still frames

(09:03:00) ‹+Kyoubro› Actually, Madoka was FILLED with still frames.

(09:03:10) ‹Anikitan› meduka meguas

(09:03:11) ‹+Bloom› can we talk about SAO and how big kirito-kun's imouto's tits are

(09:03:14) ‹+Kyoubro› You just didn't notice them because Shinbo's really fucking good at making them a nonissue.

(09:03:19) ‹+Bloom› i mean seriously she's like 15 isnt she

(09:03:29) ‹Anikitan› you meet his sister?

(09:03:31) ‹+Kyoubro› It's all in the genetics.

(09:03:35) ‹+fsdfdsf› Those honkers are massive

(09:03:35) ‹Anikitan› i havent seen the newest episode

(09:03:36) ‹+Bloom› thats what imouto means yo

(09:03:41) ‹+Bloom› shes actually his cousin

(09:03:42) ‹+Bloom› spoilers

(09:03:47) ‹Anikitan› i know i've seen that far

(09:03:55) ‹Anikitan› i never noticed her boobage though

(09:03:59) ‹+Bloom› dude what

(09:04:00) ‹+Kyoubro› Which letter of the alphabet are we getting into here?

(09:04:05) ‹+Bloom› there is a full fucking frame of them

(09:04:05) ‹+Kyoubro› E? F? G?

(09:04:14) ‹+Bloom› when kirito wakes her up

(09:04:26)  » Quit: +Beam ‹~Beam@beamu.fireu› ‹Ping timeout: 240 seconds›

(09:04:28) ‹+Bloom› kyoubro: BEEG OL TITTIES

(09:04:31) ‹+Bloom› thats the letter

(09:04:35) ‹Anikitan› COUSIN, IT IS YOUR COUSIN

(09:04:38) ‹Anikitan› WANT TO GO BOWLING

(09:04:42) ‹+Kyoubro› B-cups?

(09:04:45) ‹+Kyoubro› Pretty tiny.