Porkins Gladio B w/ Christoph Germann Raw Draft TXT Dump

♪ ( Paul Johnson – “Hear the music” ) ♪

(Pearse) OK, everybody, and
welcome back

to another episode of
Porkins Policy Radio.

This is Episode 22.

As always, I am your host
Pearse Redmond,

and you can find all of my work

by going to PorkinsPolicyReview.WordPress.com

Well, today we are joined
by a very special guest

all the way in Germany.

We are joined by Christoph Germann,

who is an independent geopolitical
analyst and researcher,

as I said, based in Germany.

He runs the excellent, excellent blog

The New Great Game,,

which can be found at ChristophGermann.BlogSpot.com,

and this blog focuses on Central Asia,
the Caucasus,

regional powers such as
Russia and China.

It's just a wealth of information,

and anything you need to know
about Central Asia,

go to this website.

It's absolutely phenomenal.

He's a contributor to Boiling Frogs Post,

where The New Great Game Round-Up
is published there as well every week,

and you can also go to BFP and find
some of Christoph's own writing as well.

And as I said, it is such a pleasure to be
talking with you, Christoph, today,

and thank you so much for
coming on the show.

(Christoph) Great to talk to you.
Thanks for having me.

(Pearse) Absolutely. Well, the topic
of Central Asia

is something that is extremely important,

and unfortunately is not very
well-understood here in the West.

The complexities of it,

the various players and actors
that are involved in all of this.

And there are so many different countries,

and so many different things
that are going on right there.

But for right now,

I think we should probably focus

on what's been going on
in Xinjiang in China,

and the sort of recent...

I don't even know how to
describe it right now,

but the situation there is increasingly
more and more murky.

We've got a bombing that just took place,

I believe on March 30th.

Just after Xi Jinping,
the President, left.

We had three dead, 79 injured.

This was, again, in Xinjiang,

which is in the far west of China.

And prior to that, we had a massive
knife attack in Kunming,

and just as I turned on my computer today,

I saw that there was another knife attack,

this one in Guangzhou, I believe?

And several people were killed there.

So obviously there's a lot going on here,

but Christoph, perhaps before we
get into what's going on,

just set up what is Xinjiang,

why is this so important to China,

and why is this such an important
geopolitical chess game

for the West as well?

(Christoph) OK. Xinjiang is China's largest province.

It has abundant oil reserves,

and it's China's largest
natural gas-producing region.

And many of the resources
which reach China

transit Xinjiang via pipelines or railway.

And therefore the province
is very important

for the development of China.

It's bordering not only the
Central Asia republics,

but also Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The stability of Xinjiang is
very important to Beijing,

and the problem that Beijing faces

is the East Turkestan independence
movement,

which is a movement consisting
of several groups,

political organizations on the one hand,

and terrorist groups on the other hand.

And they are trying to establish

an independent state

in the region now known as Xinjiang,

and they want to call it East Turkestan.

And they're using the Uyghur
population of Xinjiang,

which is a Turkic ethnic group,

which is mostly Muslims,

and they're trying to use the Uyghurs

to destabilize the region.

The most important political groups

which are supporting this independent
state called East Turkestan

are, for example, the
World Uyghur Congress,

which is based in Germany

and financed by the
National Endowment for Democracy.

And after the latest attacks,

the organization has been receiving

a lot of criticism from the Chinese media, because of a statement

which the spokesman of the
World Uyghur Congress made.

This was, of course, after
the attack you mentioned,

in late April, in Ürümqi,
which is the capital of Xinjiang,

where three people died
and 79 were injured

by two suspected perpetrators

which attacked people with knives

and then set off explosions.

And today we had another attack,

not in Xinjiang, but through
a similar tactic,

also with knives.

And I think so far we have seen
only reports

mentioning six people were injured
but nobody died,

and this was the third high-profile attack

at a Chinese train station with knives

in a little more than two months.

The situation there is certainly escalating.

(Pearse) But I think it's important to really,
kind of, dissect this,

because, again, here, the only time that
we ever hear about the Uyghurs,

in America at least,

are these infamous handful of Uyghurs
who were rendered to Guantanamo Bay

just after 9/11,

and much was made about them

and how they were innocent,

or at least most likely -- that was just
the general impression --

and that they were settled
in various places:

I think Slovakia, the Maldives,

these very bizarre countries

that you wouldn't expect to see
an ethnic Uyghur in.

But anyway, that's all that we really
hear about the Uyghurs,

and, if anything, beyond that,

it is like the World Uyghur Congress.

It is the... all of these
various organizations.

And perhaps we could go in a little bit

about the National Endowment
for Democracy,

how they're funding these.

And we know, we've touched
upon this before

in a podcast about Tibet.

And I think that, again,
anything with Xinjiang,

any sort of Western interest,
we have to look beyond this.

Because of course it's very easy
to paint China

as this oppressive, horrible,
dictatorial government

that is pushing out the Uyghurs.

But let's get a little bit beyond that,

and let's get into who, what is
the World Uyghur Congress,

who is the so-called
Prime Minister-in-Exile,

who lives in Virginia, of all places?

And what does this really mean?

What's actually going on behind
the scenes here?

(Christoph) Yes. The World Uyghur
Congress, as I mentioned earlier,

is based in Germany, in Munich,

in close proximity to the headquarters
of German intelligence,

the Bundesnachrichtendienst.
And many other [xx] organizations

which have been cultivated by the CIA

were also based in Munich,

especially during the Cold War.

Like, for example,

the anti-Bolshevik bloc of nations,

which included Organization
of Ukrainian Nationalists,

which is, of course, now again
important in the Ukraine.

And you had, also, Radio Free Europe
/Radio Liberty

was also based in Munich during this time,

and World Uyghur Congress
is now based in Munich,

and it's financed by the National
Endowment for Democracy

to the tune of about, I would say,
$200,000 dollars annually.

And its current President is prominent
Uyghur businesswoman

Rebiya Kadeer

She's living in exile in the United States
since 2005,

after six years' imprisonment in China
for leaking state secrets.

Kadeer had sent confidential
internal records,

so called (xx)

to her husband,

who was working for Radio Free Asia
and Voice of America at the time,

and the United States Government
pressured the Chinese government

into letting Kadeer go after she
spent a few years in prison,

and she has been living in the
United States ever since,

and she has established a
World Uyghur Congress,

which is leading the propaganda
campaign

against the Chinese government,

with support from the mainstream media,

and especially CIA propaganda outlets

like Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, and Radio Free Asia,

which is focusing on the Uyghur population, for example.

And as you mentioned earlier,

the Prime Minister of East Turkestan

is not directly connected to
the World Uyghur Congress,

he is running the East Turkestan
government-in-exile.

This was established in Washington, DC
in 2004

and Anwar Yusuf Turani was elected
Prime Minister of East Turkestan,

this not-existant state in Xinjiang.

And Turani is part of the same Gladio B network,

like Fethullah Gulen for example.

He was also investigated by the FBI

during the Gladio B counterintelligence
investigation

which Sibel Edmonds mentioned.

(Pearse) Yeah, all of these characters, I think

-- as we'll see a little bit later --

all very interconnected.

And of course, much of Xinjiang
has to do with oil.

this is a major hub, as you
were saying, for China,

but also the world wants to
get deeply involved in here,

and I know that you were recently writing
on The New Great Game

about a proposed Russia-India pipeline

that would go through Xinjiang.

This is, I think, estimated at $30 billion,

Now, Christoph, now feasible is this?

Because we do hear a lot
about pipeline politics,

and no doubt it is very important,

but it seems that there's always

a brand-new pipeline that is
being talked about.

We had the Iran-Pakistan one...

there are so many different pipelines

that are constantly talked about.

How realistic is this?

Or is this, sort of, hype
from the oil companies?

Is it really going to happen?

(Christoph) That's difficult to
say at this point.

This is a pipeline project which
has been talked about

for almost ten years.

It was first discussed in 2005.

And like many other pipeline projects...

you mentioned, for example,
we had Nabucco,

which was a major project,

and which won't be implemented, ever;

or the TAPI pipeline from
Turkmenistan to India,

but with this project,

we might see an implementation
due to the New Cold war.

Russia is looking to reduce its
dependence on the European market,

and wants to export more
oil and gas to Asia.

For example, we have, on May 20th,
Putin is going to visit China

and will probably sign a
gas deal with China

about a major gas contract for Gazprom,

and they will build a new pipeline
from Russia to China

to export natural gas to China.

This is one of the projects
which will be, probably,

implemented in the near future,

and the same could happen
with this pipeline,

the oil pipeline from Russia to India,

which, as you mentioned,
would cost $30 billion

and would be the most expensive
pipeline in the world,

but due to the terrain which the
pipeline route runs through,

it's a mostly mountainous terrain,

and I think up to 35 percent of the route
runs through mountainous terrain.

It will be very expensive,

and it won't be completed
before 2020 or 2022.

So we have to see if this will happen,

but it would of course confirm a trend
we are seeing right now

with India's relationship with Russia

and after the crisis in Ukraine started,

India was one of the first countries

which has supported Russia's stance
on the matter

and accession of Crimea into
the Russian Federation.

India was even more strongly
supporting Russia

than China was at the time,

because the Chinese government's
very anxious

with all these separatist movements,

because they don't want to encourage
any separatist activities at home,

in Xinjiang, for example.

(Pearse) Yeah, and I wonder if this sort of
uptick in violence in Xinjiang

is not related to India's getting a little
bit closer with China in that region.

We've talked many times before

about these sort of low-intensity
conflicts in Africa,

and how that relates to China's
economic influence there.

So, how much is this new sort of trend
of terror attacks related to this?

And on more... sort of, larger level, is...

I know, again, it's very easy
to dismiss China

as a country that would exploit terrorism,

especially in the alternative media,

there is this desire to paint
Russia and China

as somehow different or better
than the United States,

so could you break that down a little bit?

Because I know you were talking recently

about some of this stuff in Xinjiang,

and know you mentioned that
some of the evidence

that the Chinese government used

to confirm that these were Uyghur
separatist attacks

were flags that were found there,
literal flags.

So again, this brings up the whole idea

of a false-flag.

And is that something that China
would use to exploit?

Because I'm not sure what to make of that.

(Christoph) It's rather difficult to say.

First, we have to consider that

in the late 1990s,

according to Sibel Edmonds,

the Gladio B operations in the region

were responsible for almost all
terrorist attacks in Xinjiang.

It means all terrorist attacks
in Xinjiang at the time

were orchestrated from a long distance:

from Turkey to Brussels, the United
Kingdom, and the United States,

on behalf of these Gladio B operations.

But also, the problem the Chinese
are now creating, you could say,

is that they are trying to paint
all these attacks

as perpetrated by the
same terrorist group,

which would be the East Turkestan
Islamic Movement.

So they have cited evidence for this

by saying,

"Yeah, we found here flags from the
East Turkestan Islamic Movement,"

for example, after the attack
on Tiananmen Square last year,

which received a lot of attention,

where a truck was driven into
a crowd in Tiananmen Square.

And it was driven by three Uyghurs:
this is a fact.

But if these Uyghurs had anything
to do with a terrorist group

that were a different matter.

And the Chinese government said,

"Yeah, we found here flags of
this terrorist group, the ETIM".

And they did the same after
the attack in Kunming,

the massacre in Kunming,

where 29 people were killed, I think.

And they had some perpetrators
captured after the attack,

and they confessed that they were
trying to travel abroad for jihad,

possibly in Syria,

so that's where, probably, terrorists,
as you would call them, or separatists.

But they didn't get out of China,

and so they decided to stage
this attack in Kunming.

And the Chinese government blamed it

on the East Turkestan
Islamic Movement,

again, citing these ominous flags.

And this has been used
by the United States

to question this terrorism altogether,

and say, "You don't have enough evidence
to blame this on terrorists,"

"because you have only these flags,"

"and also we have all these
mainstream media reports"

"based on the World Uyghur Congress"

telling us that all these attacks

are only consequences of
government repression."

Which is, of course, pretty ridiculous
coming from the United States.

(Pearse) Yeah, the hypocrisy is almost
too much to handle at times.

And I think it's also important to note

that the East Turkestan Islamic Movement

is not listed on the
State Department's list

of known terrorist groups,

or they don't categorize it as such.

-- (Christoph)Yes, exactly.
-- So, funny that...

(Christoph) It's hard to say if this is a real,
coherent group.

I would rather describe this as
something simliar to al-Qaeda,

which is more about an
underlying ideology

as a coherent group.

(Pearse) Yeah, definitely.

Any of these mysterious
Islamic movements,

it's very difficult to kind of narrow down

what's really going on there.

But perhaps we could shift gears now

to another huge part in Central Asia

that also, again, as we were talking
about with Gladio B

has connections with Xinjiang,

and that is what is going on
right now in Azerbaijan.

And again, this is a country,

much like in the Xinjiang region,

which is very little-understood
here in the West,

but something that some people
might be familiar with

are the ongoing political problems
in Turkey right now

between Erdoğan and Gülenists,

and Fethullah Gülen is someone who
we've spoken about before,

but he is an imam who has set up
a very powerful

and well-connected Islamic political
educational movement

throughout the world.

He's set up schools in
140 different countries,

but he's very entrenched
in Turkish politics,

and there is an ongoing fight
between Gülen and Erdoğan.

Now, this is also happening a little bit
in Azerbaijan as well,

where media has reported that
there is a parallel structure

similar to the one in Turkey,

in Azerbaijan,

in terms of the Gülenists being in power.

So, Christoph, perhaps you could
explain this a little bit,

and a little bit about Gülen

for the listeners as well.

(Christoph) Yes, of course.

Fethullah Gülen is a Turkish preacher
and former Imam

During the 1990s, he was preaching
against the secular government in Turkey,

and when the Turkish government
went after him to arrest him,

he was brought to the United States

and expanded his movement.

From his base in the United States

he opened, for example,

350 mosques and madrasas in
Central Asia and the Caucasus region,

which were then used to provide cover

for CIA operations in the region.

And now he's the head of a
multi-billion-dollar movement

with millions of followers

and over 1,000 schools

in 150 countries.

The base of his movement is in Turkey,

but the Gülen movement

-- or Hizmet, as it's often called --

is also a strong influence in Azerbaijan.

And Turkey and Azerbaijan are,
of course, the two countries

which served as the main conduits
for the Gladio B operations

And the Azerbaijani authorities

have always been very supportive

of the Gülen movement's activities in Azerbaijan

until recently, when the power struggle
in Turkey intensified,

and then the Azerbaijani media started
making these reports, as you mentioned,

about a same parallel structure
in Azerbaijan.

And they have also been reporting,
the media,

linking the Gülen movement to the
terrorist recruitment in Azerbaijan,

which is a huge problem,

because many Azerbaijanis
are going to Syria

to fight against the Syrian government

on behalf of the NATO/Israel/GCC
campaign.

And now the Gülen movement is blamed

for the terrorist recruitment

by some people in Azerbaijan.

That is something which we
haven't seen before.

For example, the Grand Mufti
of the Caucasus,

quite recently urged
Azerbaijani authorities,

to take harsher measures against
Islamic extremists,

including Wahhabis and Nurcus

And Nurcus

is a term often used to describe
the Gülen movement.

And then we have also the replacing
of Gülen schools in Azerbaijan

under the state-owned
oil and gas corporation

of the Azerbaijani republic, SOCAR,

to get more control over Gülen schools.

And this came after Prime Minister Erdoğan

had shut down several schools
of Gülen in Turkey

and had called on other countries
to follow suit.

And shortly after Erdoğan
won his decisive election

the Turkish local elections,

he traveled to Azerbaijan,

to meet with Azerbaijani President
Ilham Aliyev

and the main issue was talking about

Gülen's movement's activities
in Azerbaijan,

and shortly before Erdoğan's visit,

one of the most important figures of
the Gülen movement in Azerbaijan

had been exposed and had been sacked.

He had been working for Aliyev's
administration since 2007.

His name was Elnur Aslanov,

and he was considered to be the patron

of the Azerbaijani branch
of Gülen followers.

And shortly after Erdoğan's visit to Azerbaijan,

eight other high-ranking members
of the Gülen movement

were deported from Azerbaijan,

and many more followers of Gülen
were arrested.

So the Aliyev regime is apparently siding

with Prime Minister Erdoğan
and the Turkish government

against the Gülen movement,

although both the Gülen movement
and the Azerbaijani regime

are backed by the United States,

and we have seen many
more reports lately

about the abuse of human rights
in Azerbaijan

by Soros-funded media, for example.

So I think they are trying to get
some pressure on Aliyev

to stop the crackdown on
the Gülen movement.

(Pearse) Yeah, I mean, I think that is
the crux of this whole situation,

is that as much... the same
is true in Turkey:

as much as Erdoğan and the
Gülenists might be fighting,

in the end, America runs both of them

and ultimately holds all the cards here.

So sometimes I see this a little bit
as political theater;

and as you said, we've got the
Soros-funded NGOs

criticizing Azerbaijan, where in the end,

they're all sort of part of the same
club, the same network.

So it doesn't really mean as much.

And of course if Aliyev or Erdoğan,
both of them,

could really uncover some huge stuff.

And we've been talking
a lot about Gladio B.

Perhaps we can go back
a little bit to the 1990s,

because if either of these guys know
where the bodies are hidden,

and they know how deep the Gladio B
operations run,

and perhaps you could explain
a little bit to the listeners

back in the 1990s, what was going on

with Baku and the mujahideen
in Afghanistan,

how this became a hub.

(Christoph) Yes, of course: I would say
both Aliyev and Erdoğan

know exactly where the bodies
are buried,

but they won't disclose this
to the public.

Especially Aliyev:

he's very much dependent on his
masters in the United States,

and they have very much material
on him to blackmail him.

Sibel Edmonds wrote a
lengthy article about

how Azerbaijan was removed from
Russia's sphere of influence

in the mid-1990s,

by, for example, blackmailing
Ilham Aliyev,

and this attempted assassination
attempt on his father.

You can find article on
Boiling Frogs Post. It's called:

"CIA, Obama, George Soros
Misinformation"

"Campaign Targets Russia".

I don't go into much more detail about it,

but Abdullah Çatlı played
an important role.

Abdullat Çatlı was the go-to guy
for Gladio during this time,

the original Gladio,

and he was the one who organized
the assassination attempt.

And Çatlı traveled frequently
to Azerbaijan, but also to Xinjiang

to orchestrate operations in the region.

And Azerbaijan played an
increasingly important role

after it was removed from Russia's
sphere of influence,

but it was also a hub for these kind
of jihadi operations before.

This started in the early 1990s,
and early 1991,

Richard Secord, who played an
imporant role in Iran-Contra,

and two other US Air Force officers,

traveled to Baku,

and set up the front company Mega Oil.

Mega Oil wasn't in the business of finding oil. (laughter)

But it managed to recruit and arm
about 2,000 mujahideen,

and they were flown to Azerbaijan,
to Baku,

and then funnelled into the Balkans
and the Caucasus,

where they were used against Russia,
for example.

But after Azerbaijan came
into the Western camp,

these kinds of operations increased,

and we then, of course, had
the Gladio B operations,

where Turkey and Azerbaijan served
as the main conduits for,

and therefore Azerbaijan was
one of the four countries

exempt from the FBI monitoring
under FISA.

So for example, the pre-9/11
meetings in Azerbaijan

hadn't, or should not have
become known.

But thanks to Sibel Edmonds,

we know, of course, that there were
several meetings in Azerbaijan,

in Baku, in the US Embassy,

where US military intelligence officials

met with the likes of Ayman al-Zawahiri,

current number one of al-Qaeda,

and former Saudi intelligence chief
Prince Bandar bin Sultan,

who was directing [xx] war in Syria
until recently,

and Yasin al-Qadi,

another very interersting character.

And they... these meetings
were used to coordinate

the Gladio B operations in the region.

So I would imagine that Ilham Aliyev
knows a lot about these things,

but he won't say anything.

(Pearse) Yeah, and I think that that's
very important to keep in mind,

that whenever these politicians or
leaders start getting all upset,

and they're huffing and puffing
about this and that,

at the end of the day, they're gonna keep
their mouths shut for the most part.

And we saw that with Mubarak;

we saw that with any of these people
who might be kind of on the way out.

They could, if they... Erdoğan knows
a lot more than he's willing to say,

the same, as you said, with Aliyev,

but they're going to probably
keep their mouths shut.

And whenever their purpose is served
and they are shown the door,

they will live a comfortable life
after that.

And at the end of that, you mentioned
Yasin al-Qadi,

and if we could, I'd love to just
pick apart that a little bit,

because he is a character who
I've long been fascinated with,

and his role in PTech and 9/11,

and in helping to fund a lot of this stuff
is very interesting.

But again, everything is connected:

Yasin al-Qadi has come up again
in regard to Erdoğan,

and we have the Gülenist-supported newspapers like Today's Zaman,

which has been pushing lots of
stories about Yasin al-Qadi

and his connections with Erdoğan.

So maybe you could explore that
a little bit.

(Christoph) Yes, Yasin al-Qadi is a
very important and interesting character.

He's a Saudi businessman
and terrorist financier,

and Gladio B operator.

He's a multimillionaire from
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia,

and he was trained as an
architect in Chicago.

And Chicago plays a central role

in these Gladio B operations,

and a lot of the operational and
logistic aspects of Gladio B

were being conducted from Chicago.

It's the best city when it comes
to money laundering,

because of the huge level of corruption.

And in the mid-1990s, FBI agents
from Chicago,

first and foremost Robert Wright,

led an FBI investigation called
"Vulgar Betrayal,"

the most significant US Government
investigation

into terrorist activities, terrorist financing

before 9/11.

And the investigation uncovered
Yasin al-Qadi's involvement

in financing numerous
terrorist activities.

For example, the 1998 Embassy
Bombings in Africa.

And since "Vulgar Betrayal,"
which had led to many actors

which were later involved in 9/11,

it was impeded and eventually
shut down in 2000.

The United Nations had placed
sanctions against al-Qadi

in 1999 and 2000,

because of his connections to
Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda,

and during this time al-Qadi was,
of course, a frequent figure

in the pre-9/11 meetings in Azerbaijan,

along with Prince Bandar and Zawahiri.

And he was also involved
in funding PTech,

which played an important role in 9/11,

which most of the listeners
will probably know.

And if you haven't heard about it,

I would refer them to Indira Singh...

(Pearse) Yes.

(Christoph) Which explained this in pretty stark detail.

And after 9/11, some of al-Qadi's
assets were freezed

because his name had become widely known

due to his involvement in PTech,

but he was allowed to escape
the United States,

and he ... this was, of course, due to
his close contacts in Washington.

For example, before 9/11,
he had regularly spoken

of this relationship with Dick Cheney,
for example. (laughter)

And after he left the United States,
he went to Albania...

-- he has an Albanian passport --

and he lived there for a few months

before he went to Turkey.

United States asked publicly for
his extradition to save face,

But it didn't really want his extradition,

and Turkey played its part
and refused the request.

(Pearse) Right. (laughs)

(Christoph) And at this time,
al-Qadi was backed

by Fethullah Gülen and the
Turkish government.

And he has several interesting
business connections in Turkey,

but not only in Turkey:
also with other countries,

especially the countries with
play an imporant role

in the Gladio B Operations,

meaning Azerbaijan, where he has
several front businesses,

and he operates also, with complete
backing and immunity,

in the United Kingdom,
where he lived also.

I think he lived until recently
in the United Kingdom.

I'm not sure where he is currently,

but his businesses extend
throughout the whole world

and include banking,
diamonds, chemicals,

construction, transportation, real estate.

One journalist wrote about him:

"It would be hard to find a more
strategically-placed individual"

"to advance the agenda of al-Qaeda
or any other terrorist organization."

And in 2012, the United Nations
Security Council

removed al-Qadi from the terrorist list,

(xx) the last terrorist list he was on

after he had been removed
from every other terrorist list

over the last few years.

And he has a close relationship

with Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan,

and people around Erdoğan.

When the media focused on al-Qadi
a few years ago in Turkey,

and his links to terrorism
were mentioned,

Erdoğan was one of the first
to come out and say,

"I know Yasin. I believe in him
as I would myself."

(Pearse) Yes, yes.

(Christoph) He's a close... Yasin al-Qadi
is close to Erdoğan's son Bilal,

and Erdoğan's right-hand man
Cüneyt Zapsu

who is also involved in
these kind of operations.

He's under(xx) of the Turkish-German
Business Council.

This is the German equivalent to
the American-Turkish Council.

It's involved in drug trafficking,

transferring drugs from Turkey
to Belgium and the Netherlands.

Yasin al-Qadi was frequently in Turkey

to meet with Erdoğan or his sun Bilal,

and other business associates.

And during his visits, for example,
in 2012,

he was escorted by Erdoğan's
security guards

despite being banned
from entering Turkey,

he made at least five visits to Turkey
during this time

where he'd always meet
with Hakan Fidan,

the head of Turkish intelligence,

who came recently in the spotlight

because of the false flag tape which
was leaked by the Gülen movement,

and after one of these meetings
in early 2013,

al-Qadi was involved in a
car accident in Turkey,

which was reminiscent of the
Susurluk car accident in 1996.

al-Qadi and one of his business
associates, Usama Qutb,

who is also linked to financing
terrorism and the like,

and İbrahim Yıldız, the police lieutenant
from Erdoğan's guards office,

had an accident in Turkey.

And when they crashed,

a close friend of Yasin al-Qadi,
a Turkish billionaire,

Mustafa Latif Topbas, who is a
close friend of them

and had been financing al-Qadi's
operations to some extent,

immediately reported the accident to
Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan,

and Erdoğan asked his son Bilal
to go to the hospital

and check that Qadi's OK.

(Pearse) Yeah.

(Christoph) But this close relationship
has been a problem recently

for the Turkish Prime Minister,

because the Gülen movement,

which supported al-Qadi and
his operations earlier,

is now trying to portray him
as the al-Qaeda financier,

and use his relationship to Erdoğan

to target the Turkish Prime Minister.

This is, of course, pretty ridiculous.

As you mentioned earlier, the reports
by Today's Zaman, for example.

(Pearse) Yeah, again: anyone
who wants to really dismiss

this whole myth of al-Qaeda
and what's really going on:

just check in to Yasin al-Qadi,

because his various connections

are beyond strange and bizarre;

and the way this guy has just
floated in and out

of every kind of situation,
and countries, and whatnot,

is startling.

And really just destroys this
whole myth of al-Qaeda.

But going back a little bit to Azerbaijan
in particular right now:

I recently also saw on your Twitter
account, again, just this morning

a little bit more about the jihadis
that are going in there.

How do you...

it seems as if Azerbaijan is one of
the main central Asian countries

that is either shipping jihadis into Syria,

or is at least allowing them
to go into Syria.

How do you see this playing
out in the near future?

Obviously, the conflict in Syria
is probably just starting up.

But in the meantime, we've got an influx
of mujahideen going somewhere:

eventually, they do come back.

And I know that Azerbaijan
has been a little bit hesitant.

As you said, we also had the
Grand Mufti in Central Asia

saying that they need to take
a tougher stance on this.

But how do you see that happening
in the near future

or a few years down the line?

(Christoph) Yes, of course:

Azerbaijani regime is very afraid

of jihadis returning to Azerbaijan

to conduct jihad in Azerbaijan.

This would be terrifying for them.

And we had to... one was arrested
when he returned to Baku

immediately after he left his flight,
he was arrested.

And they are trying to send him
to Syria or to Russia,

but of course not allow any terrorist
activities in Azerbaijan.

The same applies, of course,
to other countries,

Turkey has a huge problem
of this recently.

In Azerbaijan, there are some places
which...

as I mentioned, a report which
was published two days ago

about Azerbaijani city of Sumqayit,

which appears to be a hotbed
of Islamic extremism.

And recently, some people
have mentioned

the increasing influence of
Wahhabism in the country,

and also of the Gülen movement,

and has cited this as reasons

for the influx of Azerbaijanis,
fighters, into Syria.

There's a strong connection between
Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia.

Both countries have close relations,
as we saw earlier,

when Prince Bandar visited Azerbaijan
frequently in the late 1990s

for these infamous pre-9/11 meetings;

and more recently, a Croatian
businessman and arms dealer,

a leading figure in the
Balkan arms trade,

has relocated his corporations to Baku,

and he's supplying weapons to the
so-called Syrian rebels via Jordan.

And this operation, these operations,

are understood to be taking place

with the financial support and protection

of several intelligence agencies
in the Middle East,

probably Saudi intelligence,

because his relocation to Baku
happened at a time

when Prince Bandar was in charge
of the jihadi mercenaries in Syria.

So you have seen many Azerbaijanis,
fighters leaving for Syria.

There were reports in local media
of anywhere from 200 to 400,

with more than 100 killed in action
in Azerbaijan,

media published videos showing
Azerbaijani fighters in Syria

on a regular basis,

And this is a huge topic in Azerbaijan.

As I mentioned earlier, the
Azerbaijani government

encourages these activities abroad,
but not at home.

And they have also encouraged
these activities before

in Russia, for example, in Dagestan,

which is bordering Azerbaijan.

(Pearse) Yes. And another, I think,
development that is going on there,

that you pointed on in
The New Great Game,

was, we've got the influx of
Azerbaijani jihadis into Syria,

but we've also got an exit
of ethnic Armenians

who are fleeing Syria.

And in the... Kassab, I believe,
is the name of the town

that is ethnically Armenian.

And they are coming back,

and they are being resettled

in a region that is called

-- if I can try and pronounce this right --

Nagorno-Karabakh;

and this is a breakaway region
that was part of Azerbaijan,

but is now ostensibly under
Armenian control.

So I don't know if you want
to talk about that,

but I found that to be another
very interesting

sort of development that is going on.

And Armenia and Azerbaijan
fought a pretty nasty war

over this little tiny sliver of land.

And it seems that this could intensify

in the next couple of years.

(Christoph) Yes, this is
a constant threat,

a constant point of tensions,

between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

The two countries are arch-enemies

because of the conflict about
Nagorno-Karabakh,

which... as you mentioned, the nasty war.

and Azerbaijan is strongly opposed

to settling these refugees
from Syria in the region,

because they are saying
this is just a way

to consolidate Armenia's influence
over the region,

and to claim that this is their land.

And this conflict is often mentioned

in the Azerbaijani and Armenian media,

although it is receiving little
attention anywhere else,

but there are, almost on a daily basis,
reports

about shootings at the border
and at the contested areas.

And you could say a war between
these two countries

about Nagorno-Karabakh

could happen at any time.

And last year,

there was...

there were questions raised about
Azerbaijan's relationship with Russia,

because the country has been buying
a lot of Russian weapons.

And the Armenians were concerned

about Russia's role in the
Nagorno-Karabakh conflict,

until one Russian commander of...

-- the Russians have a
base in Armenia --

He came out and said,

if there was...

a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan
would happen in the region,

Russian would back Armenia in this war.

And this caused a lot of concern

in Azerbaijan, of course.

(Pearse) Yeah. And again, as we said,

just so many different interconnections

with all of these various players
and countries and everything.

And surely we could talk, probably,

for hours about Central Asia

and the Caucasus and all these things.

I barely just scratched the surface.

Christoph, is there anything else
that you want to mention,

either on Xinjiang, Azerbaijan,
or anything else?

What should we be looking out for
in the near future,

in terms of developments in Central Asia
and the Caucasus?

(Christoph) Yes, I think the
situation in Xinjiang

is very, very interesting right now.

I can't predict where it's heading,

because we have seen a lot of
attacks outside of Xinjiang,

primarily at railway stations.

And I think this is probably an attempt

to attract international attention
to the Uyghur problem

And the mainstream media is,
of course,

portraying this as government oppression,

and the Uyghurs are just striking back

(xx).

And I think this could be used for an
increasing propaganda campaign

against the Chinese government.

So we have to keep a close eye on that.

(Pearse) And of course, very funny

that here in America, in the West,

we can understand that, "Oh, this --
brutal policies by the Chinese --"

"is resulting in terrorism."

But of course, when we
bomb entire nations,

and they tend to get angry,

we're so surprised that that
could ever happen.

But as I said before,

there's so much with Central Asia,

and this is a very fluid situation there,

constantly with lots of new information.

And one of the best way to really
keep up to date with this

is to check out your blog.

So Christoph, please tell everybody

where they can go to read your work,

and just describe the kind of work

that you're doing at
The New Great Game.

(Christoph) Yes, of course.

I publish a weekly round-up

about developments in Central Asia
and the Caucasus region

on my blog at
ChristophGermann.BlogSpot.com

which you can also find
at Boiling Frogs Post,

where I contribute to regularly.

I publish other articles

about, for example,

the situation in Turkey,

or NATO's new Cold War,

which has been running into a few
problems in Germany recently.

And you can find these articles
all on Boiling Frogs Post.

(Pearse) Excellent. And I really can't
stress enough how great your writing is,

and how informative it is.

And it's just amazing to be speaking
with you today.

So, Christoph: thank you so much
for joining us on this show,

and I hope that we can talk again
very soon.

(Christoph) Thank you very much.
I really enjoyed it.

(Pearse) OK, everybody:

so, that about does it for our conversation

with Christoph Germann of
The New Great Game

-- which, of course, you can find

by going to
ChristophGermann.BlogSpot.com

Well, I hope you have enjoyed
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Well, I'm gonna leave it there,

and I will be talking to you very soon.

♪ ( The Whispers – “And the
Beat Goes On” ) ♪

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