Tuesday, February 9, 2016
1:05 AM - Ben: fooly!
1:05 AM - Ben: have you heard of black desert?
1:05 AM - Mark: bdo?
1:06 AM - Ben: yeah
1:06 AM - Ben: are you getting it?
1:06 AM - Mark: ya but i'm not pre-ordering anything, i learned my lesson with archeage
1:06 AM - Ben: nah man bdo aint nothing like that!
1:06 AM - Ben: oh man i cant wait any longer for this game
1:08 AM - Mark: well i tell ya what, i'm not gonna go try hard mode and make my character look pretty, i want the goofiest bastard ever
1:08 AM - Mark: like some straight up mongoloid shit
1:08 AM - Ben: i only spent like 15 minutes on mine in the character thing
1:08 AM - Ben: have you made yours yet?
1:08 AM - Mark: no, i don't wanna get my hopes up too high.   i always get disappointed when i get excited for a new mmo.
1:09 AM - Ben: this is the first pc game ive ever preordered
1:09 AM - Ben: honestly if the kr/ru version interests you the na release wont be any different
1:10 AM - Mark: is it subscription based or is there a premium bullshit thingy
1:11 AM - Ben: one time buy
1:11 AM - Ben: unlike wow where you pay $50 then pay $15 every month
1:11 AM - Ben: from what the devs have already confirmed, this game is faaar from p2w
1:11 AM - Mark: ya but they promise that stuff so often
1:12 AM - Ben: + theirs no player trading, so bye gold spammers and bots
1:12 AM - Mark: no player trading, so no economy?
1:12 AM - Ben: theirs a market
1:12 AM - Ben: as far as i know you can only trade stuff like potions
1:12 AM - Ben: and you cant even like "scam" the market
1:12 AM - Ben: as in if an item is generally going for 10k on the market, you can only sell 25% less then that or 25% above it
1:13 AM - Ben: thats not exact numbers
1:13 AM - Ben: i mean yeah you cant trust game devs and all that but from what we already have seen in the other region versions, this game is far from p2w
1:13 AM - Ben: the pvp part of the game just gets me so excited
1:14 AM - Ben: so youre going to get the game after its released?
1:15 AM - Mark: archeage was boasting no p2w aspects too, but then people started using vpn's to access like korean or russian versions and they were spending money to get the best mounts right off the bat and stuff
1:15 AM - Mark: so i'm very wary of all these claims
1:16 AM - Ben: yeah but with bdo you can play the ru/kr versions to see if its p2w yourself
1:16 AM - Mark: it's scary when they do these pre-orders and hype it up so much
1:16 AM - Mark: they should just do a soft release and let people decide instead of making everything seem amazing
1:17 AM - Mark: it's like one of those 14-year-olds that starts jumping around and causing a fuss about how tough they are, but when it comes to action, they completely fail
1:19 AM - Mark: battlefront fooled me, archeage fooled me, won't do it again until i know for sure
1:19 AM - Mark: spent way too much money
1:19 AM - Ben: you see with those games you could have easily known it was a scheme lol
1:19 AM - Mark: how
1:19 AM - Ben: battlefront was from ea man cmon
1:19 AM - Ben: they advertised season passes before it was out
1:19 AM - Ben: eberyone knows ea for doing that
1:20 AM - Ben: AA i never played but from what i read about it over time the publishers were known for being money hungry
1:20 AM - Mark: but this all seems like obvious information because we already know they fucked a bunch of people over.   it's not the same with a new game we don't know much about until it's fully released.
1:22 AM - Ben: well that depends on the game id say
1:22 AM - Mark: there are a lot of people talking shit about Pearl Abyss, too
1:22 AM - Mark: the devs for bdo
1:22 AM - Ben: link me lol
1:23 AM - Mark: google 'pearl abyss shallow'
1:23 AM - Mark: there are also some articles about the current state of the game without all the sparkles and hype
1:24 AM - Ben: the one thing i have with the game is the grinding youll have to do
1:24 AM - Mark: and there are articles about korean players absolutely despising the new changes made to the game from the original
1:24 AM - Ben: other then that i never really see any complains
1:24 AM - Ben: thats a bit of an overkill lol, but i do know the kr players dont agree with everything they do
1:25 AM - Ben: for example they went from having multiple servers to a mega server on kr, which the players didnt like
1:25 AM - Ben: they still havent told us what they were going to have on na, but the devs made a thread with a poll asking what kind of servers we'd like
1:26 AM - Ben: i know it coudl just be pr, but until the game is released ill take it for what it is
1:26 AM - Ben: blade and soul was a complete letdown however lol
1:27 AM - Ben: i really do hope bdo doesnt dissapoint
1:26 AM - Mark: it's already p2w because koreans are complaining that people just buy the 50 usd armor sets from the cash shop and sell it for millions of in-game currency
1:27 AM - Mark: in that auction house
1:28 AM - Ben: well to be fair, the devs made a post that told us everything theyd have in the cash shop
1:28 AM - Ben: and based off the list, its not p2w
1:28 AM - Ben: granted they could do a complete 180 on launch, if they wanted to lose their players
1:29 AM - Ben: also you have to understand the kr version is free
1:28 AM - Mark: but realistically, this is the current state of the game.  right now it's a p2w dressup game with angry koreans
1:29 AM - Ben: with a premium service
1:29 AM - Ben: unlike na, where its buy to play
1:29 AM - Ben: the kr/na versions are reallllyyy different
1:29 AM - Ben: if youre going to compare the two, its best to do research on the different things about it
1:29 AM - Ben: for example, on kr even though the same is free they have servers where you have to pay to play on
1:30 AM - Ben: the game is free*
1:32 AM - Mark: but here's the problem, people care about cosmetics so much.  they wanna look cool on their favorite mmo.  so they're gonna do whatever they can to buy some lingerie.  the cash shop items (as of right now) can be sold on the auction house for silver, and people will abuse that.  what are the NA devs doing about that?
1:33 AM - Ben: afaik EVERY mmorpg does that though
1:33 AM - Ben: does that mean the economy will be ruined? not really
1:33 AM - Mark: they're paying real money to get a bunch of in-game currency, that's the p2w right there.  they can get anything they want with real money.
1:33 AM - Ben: well if we were going off that
1:34 AM - Ben: in the kr version, the best gear in the game cost billions of in game currency
1:34 AM - Ben: one set in that game from cash shop gets you at most a couple million
1:34 AM - Ben: imagine how much $ youd have to spend to get the gear
1:34 AM - Mark: which set costs billions?
1:35 AM - Ben: the best gear in the kr version
1:34 AM - Mark: ya but what is it
1:35 AM - Ben: like the actual gear name?
1:35 AM - Ben: one sec let me look it up
1:35 AM - Mark: i'm not seeing anything about it
1:35 AM - Ben: think its called neil, let me check to make sure
1:36 AM - Mark: and dude, have you ever played age of wushu?  people pay literally thousands of dollars just to get the best characters.   a LOT of people do it, too.  rich bastards that have no other purpose for their money.
1:36 AM - Ben: yeah people will do that, thats inevitable in every mmo
1:37 AM - Ben: theyll find some way to abuse the cash shop and be rich in game
1:37 AM - Mark: the most expensive gear i'm seeing is in the 39-46 million range
1:37 AM - Ben: whats the set name?
1:37 AM - Mark: it's called Plymouth
1:38 AM - Mark: the second most expensive is Bernina
1:38 AM - Ben: ok how old is the info youre reading lol
1:39 AM - Mark: it's late 2015, but the point is that even if the armor is 1000 bajillion trillion, people can still get a huge head start with real money, so it's p2w
1:39 AM - Ben: dude thats not fair at all lol
1:40 AM - Ben: like thats like finding the littlest thing and making it huge
1:40 AM - Ben: something like that is envitable in every mmorpg
1:40 AM - Ben: if you can sell cash shop items in game then people for what ever reason will spend thousands of $ to abuse it and become p2w
1:40 AM - Mark: you're arguing against yourself now though, first you said that it's not p2w, now you're saying every mmo has p2w
1:40 AM - Ben: i never said that was p2w to begin with, you said that
1:41 AM - Ben: im saying 99% of mmorpg has that sort of system
1:40 AM - Mark: wat
1:41 AM - Ben: bro
1:41 AM - Ben: this is literally what you said
1:41 AM - Ben: " it's late 2015, but the point is that even if the armor is 1000 bajillion trillion, people can still get a huge head start with real money, so it's p2w"
1:41 AM - Ben: i dont recall ever saying that sort of system makes it p2w
1:42 AM - Ben: "of $ to abuse it and become p2w" by that i mean those players singlely will pay tons of money to win, but that doesnt mean the game itself is p2w
1:42 AM - Mark: you're going into confuse territory.   first you said this - "3:28 AM - Ben: well to be fair, the devs made a post that told us everything theyd have in the cash shop
3:28 AM - Ben: and based off the list, its not p2w"   then you said - "3:33 AM - Ben: afaik EVERY mmorpg does that though"
1:43 AM - Ben: yes, like almost every mmorpg lets you sell cash shop items
1:43 AM - Ben: but i never said it makes it p2w
1:43 AM - Mark: how does that not make it p2w if paying for in-game currency lets you get anything you want?
1:44 AM - Mark: including the best armor so far in the game?
1:44 AM - Ben: well for starters i think youre confusing p2w with another term
1:45 AM - Ben: pay to win means you can literally buy gear(not cosmetics) from a cash shop
1:45 AM - Mark: pay to win, meaning best gear available.  archeage did it with the best mount.   you're paying USD to get the best of something in-game.   just because there's another step in-between doesn't make it not p2w.
1:45 AM - Ben: that aside, i think its actually a good thing games let you do that
1:45 AM - Ben: 1. pepople who cant spend irl money on stuff can farm in game gold and buy it from players who sell it
1:46 AM - Ben: but doies that mean the economy will be ruined with p2w players? no
1:46 AM - Mark: i never said the economy will be ruined, we're talking about whether or not it's p2w.  with your above statement, you're admitting that it's p2w.
1:46 AM - Ben: bro youre twisting my words
1:46 AM - Mark: by acknowledging that players can be p2w
1:46 AM - Mark: but doies that mean the economy will be ruined with p2w players?
1:46 AM - Mark: i didn't take out a specific section, that's the whole thing
1:47 AM - Ben: let me get something clear first
1:47 AM - Ben: " pay to win, meaning best gear available.
1:47 AM - Ben: " pay to win, meaning best gear available." do you mean they can buy gear, as in swords armors etc with stats that you USE
1:47 AM - Ben: and not cosmetics?
1:47 AM - Mark: now you're getting hung up on specifics lol.  just because i said gear, doesn't mean that's the only medium through which a game can be p2w.
1:48 AM - Ben: thats a very important specific
1:48 AM - Mark: it's really not, the point is that you pay real money for the best things in-game
1:48 AM - Ben: i need to know if youre meaning cosmetics or gear
1:48 AM - Ben: because if a game is selling gear, its p2w
1:48 AM - Ben: if its selling cosmetics, then its a different section
1:48 AM - Mark: but dude, the part that you're trading for the currency doesn't matter.
1:48 AM - Mark: it could be a nut sack or a golden chariot
1:48 AM - Mark: the point is that you use that for in-game money
1:48 AM - Ben: ok but if we went from your logic, then practically 99.9% of mmorpgs out now are p2w
1:48 AM - Mark: which most of them are lol, you can use USD to get in-game money to buy whatever you want
1:48 AM - Mark: that's p2w
1:49 AM - Ben: so let me get this straight, youre saying if a game lets you sell cash shop items, ranging from more inventory slots to cosmetics to character slots, its p2w?
1:50 AM - Mark: i don't understand why you're hung up on that extra step lol.  MMO's hide behind "cosmetics."   some mmo's make cosmetics so they're bound to the character, not sellable, not tradable.   BDO has made all cosmetics sellable through the auction house.   that's p2w.  you get all the in-game money you want.
1:51 AM - Ben: im hung up on it because thats your main argument
1:51 AM - Ben: "using USD to get in game money"
1:51 AM - Ben: is that not what you mean
1:51 AM - Mark: but you have no basis to dispute that fact other than you're buying cosmetics.  that's not the point.
1:51 AM - Mark: that's like getting hung up on why you'd buy a cucumber at a grocery store without realizing you eat it
1:51 AM - Ben: i have no basis because you are really just confusing me lol
1:52 AM - Ben: like you need to answer my question about your main argument
1:52 AM - Ben: youre saying being able to buy cash shop items, no matter what they are, then selling them in game, is pay to win correct?
1:53 AM - Mark: being able to use USD to trade in for in-game currency to get whatever you want, yes.   all it is, is an extra step from what normal MMO's do, which is just straight up buy the best thing from a menu, skipping the middle man, no auction house needed.  the auction house is the extra step that you're not getting past.
1:54 AM - Mark: so i'll set up a chart here
1:54 AM - Mark: normal MMO's do this:
1:54 AM - Mark: USD > Premium Shop > Buy Best Gear
1:54 AM - Mark: BDO does this:
1:54 AM - Mark: USD > Premium Shop > Sell at Auction House > Buy Best Gear
1:55 AM - Mark: the extra step doesn't NOT make it a p2w, that makes no sense
1:55 AM - Ben: i understand your argument, and heres mine
1:59 AM - Ben: 1. in my books, a game is not p2w if it allows you to sell cash shop items for in game currency. p2w is when they literally sell you gear and not just cosmetics. i dont know how archeage did it, but just because they let you do this and people go and spend thousands of dollars buying for example a cosmetic outfit and selling hundreds of it to get tons of in game money and buy end game gear, its not p2w in my books. im to understand archeage sold energy potions or what ever that was, and you were able to use those to refil your energy or some shit. people complained about those items specifully making the game pay to win, not that the whole selling cash shop items in any game making it p2w
2:00 AM - Ben: its clear your definition of p2w and mines are different