FateIsEscaped vs Evernewb Solderq1 on game enemy diversity

it

AllBlankUnitFATE: rof rof sapp legion + 3 hs

AllBlankUnitFATE: fg sapps, and fg turret?

zeus010101: nice

solderq1: gg

ideasoup: sorcery sold

solderq1: @blank u got fg legion???

Jan 19 - 10:18PM solderq1: when did that heppen XD

AllBlankUnitFATE: no siree

zeus010101: fg?

AllBlankUnitFATE: just asking

ideasoup: jup gets rekt, ohl let me just cloak real quick

solderq1: oh

solderq1: well in theory, yes

solderq1: all sapps, legion guns should fg

zeus010101: whats fg?

AllBlankUnitFATE: frame glitch

solderq1: that's why I debated whether rof rof legoin> shield sd sapp legion

Jan 19 - 10:19PM solderq1: in theory ofc

AllBlankUnitFATE: it means the ship shoots at maximum speed the game allows

solderq1: 10 fps

AllBlankUnitFATE: 1 shot per game frame

zeus010101: hey some one told me not to do that

solderq1: why not?

ideasoup: not to do wht?

AllBlankUnitFATE: the reason this is good is moving from 1 shot every 2 frames, to every 1 frame, is it doubles your Damage

solderq1: it's not really a glitch

zeus010101: the acid mosquito cloaked

solderq1: its just a funny game mechanic

Jan 19 - 10:20PM solderq1: ...

AllBlankUnitFATE: its kinda a glitch in a way

solderq1: what does mosquito have to to with frame glitch

solderq1: lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: its just bad math

AllBlankUnitFATE: by cww

solderq1: yeah bad rounding lol

ideasoup: i thought i was fighting solderq, zeus, ive been trolling him with annoying rush builds

zeus010101: ah

AllBlankUnitFATE: there is no reason that +70% fire rate, should make a weapon do 3 times the damage it should

Jan 19 - 10:21PM solderq1: @fate it's called... math!

ideasoup: are you some kind of commie? whats wrong with that lol

solderq1: XD

AllBlankUnitFATE: so it definitely feels like an error by cww

solderq1: you have to realize

solderq1: 1.99=fg

AllBlankUnitFATE: a glitch is the difference from intentional

solderq1: so in reality only dropped 2.01 frames

solderq1: but that's considered fg

AllBlankUnitFATE: all programming is math

AllBlankUnitFATE: and logic

Jan 19 - 10:22PM solderq1: yeah im kinda confused why they all rounded down

AllBlankUnitFATE: so there is never such a thing as an error

solderq1: most fg exploits would be solved by normal rounding

AllBlankUnitFATE: all programs do what you tell them to do

ideasoup: its completely possible things were unforseen ya know

solderq1: ie 1.5=2, 1.49=1

AllBlankUnitFATE: exactly idea.

AllBlankUnitFATE: unforseen = glitch

solderq1: yeah

ideasoup: ha, good way to describe it

Jan 19 - 10:23PM AllBlankUnitFATE: I forget who started calling it a glitch, and I disagreed with the name at first too

Evernewb: whataglitch?

AllBlankUnitFATE: frame glitch

ideasoup: "but then i got a 3x rof laser and stopped whining"

AllBlankUnitFATE: and whether than is a correct naming

ideasoup: XD

Evernewb: oh...I'm not sure either

Jan 19 - 10:24PM AllBlankUnitFATE: nah soup. I was doing the glitching long before :)

Evernewb: I remember the conversation but I don't remember who coined it

ideasoup: heh

AllBlankUnitFATE: its just, I didnt name it

AllBlankUnitFATE: I was just exploiting the game engine

solderq1: lol

zeus010101: im lagging so bad

AllBlankUnitFATE: the name frame glitch caught on, and thats history

ideasoup: ya when legions stack always gets crazy

Jan 19 - 10:25PM Evernewb: it's catchier than 1:1

solderq1: fglitch aka how do coax rediculous dps from what would otherwise be mediocre ships

solderq1: trident became a star almost overnight lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: yarrrrr.

solderq1: liek once ppl caught on

ideasoup: and then BANG

Evernewb: you get simmilar dps from the normal damaging ships

Evernewb: not sure why people forget that

Jan 19 - 10:26PM solderq1: normal damaging ships?

solderq1: hard to match 530 dps on trident...

Evernewb: beam halo with the same rof is more damage than a trident

solderq1: fair enough yeah

zeus010101: carrier with freeze and thermal on the other

edsung: any qm?

Jan 19 - 10:27PM solderq1: @evern but bhalo is much more expensive...

Evernewb: same for most of the other weapon based ships

AllBlankUnitFATE: might be fun to make a list of ships cost vs their dps

solderq1: maybe yeah

solderq1: but range, other factors come in too

ideasoup: so a more comprehensive and simple wiki? yes that would be fun...

ideasoup: if you made it

solderq1: for example just consider why 2-frame hammerhead is so good

Evernewb: range is the big reason that a FG trident isn't all that amazing

AllBlankUnitFATE: I wouldnt compare much to a bhalo, its too unique

Jan 19 - 10:28PM Evernewb: heh: that's why it caught on

solderq1: yeah bhalo is something else

Evernewb: you have an acronym shortening for frameglitch

zeus010101: fg

solderq1: I can rush level 80 camp with 2 fraem hh

solderq1: :)

ideasoup: is 3x rof on a bhalo upgrade possible?

solderq1: sure

solderq1: why not

ideasoup: good goood gives me something to dream about

AllBlankUnitFATE: Ive never heard of someone with one tho

ideasoup: lol

Evernewb: it's possible, 1 range 2 rate is likely stronger

solderq1: well its possible

Jan 19 - 10:29PM solderq1: no reason it shouldn't exist

ideasoup: true

AllBlankUnitFATE: sure it is.

AllBlankUnitFATE: I think most prefer the range tho

ideasoup: perhaps then range rnage shield a is the best bc HS have no cost as a tech

solderq1: yeah

Evernewb: the whole reason that Bhalo works so well is the next cap in line picks up some of the work whenever targets get farther into the range of the first

AllBlankUnitFATE: frame glitch only really applies to quick firing weapons

AllBlankUnitFATE: so a bhalo is slow, it doesnt fg

ideasoup: for sure i got off topic a bit lol

Jan 19 - 10:30PM Evernewb: most notably the next cap in line gets a lot of the fighters from carriers since it is waiting to fire instead of recharging

solderq1: mmhmm

solderq1: I really wish there was an artillery doctrine....

AllBlankUnitFATE: trident was supposed to be the newbie cap. weakish, but kind of all around

Jan 19 - 10:31PM solderq1: heheh

Evernewb: ...come to think of it, I never DID get around to getting a proper dps for a rof/rof plasma halo

solderq1: yeah no

solderq1: it is the best all-purpose cap

solderq1: but its not weakish lol

Evernewb: even have the turret, just forgot to do it before selling the plasma tech for space

AllBlankUnitFATE: before fg, only the newbies newbs flew trids

Evernewb: @Fate I think trident was intended as a super-mid it's an excelent support ship but a poor standalone cap

AllBlankUnitFATE: mastos are still in that category

Jan 19 - 10:32PM AllBlankUnitFATE: of "meant to be weak" placeholders

ideasoup: gg zeus

zeus010101: you have 3 yards 1 cap and 2 fighter yards gg

edsung: gg

solderq1: gg

Evernewb: even a 1:1 trident is still serving as bullet spam more than anything else

AllBlankUnitFATE: trid also find love of course for being anti FY

ideasoup: my scorpions are have pbay with emp :)

Jan 19 - 10:33PM AllBlankUnitFATE: and anti carrier

zeus010101: nice i like my angel

Evernewb: eeeeyup, it's a supporter extraordinaire

AllBlankUnitFATE: while poor cata weeps in the corner.

solderq1: ^ main reason imo

Jan 19 - 10:34PM Evernewb: cataclysm gets screwed over by a tiny margin on so many game mechanics

AllBlankUnitFATE: I think maybe cww should return missile doctrine to buffing arties

ideasoup: lata yall

Jan 19 - 10:35PM AllBlankUnitFATE: not enough missile ships

AllBlankUnitFATE: lates

zeus010101: later

solderq1: gg

edsung: gg

Evernewb: it's fire rate is just a hair to slow to get major damage jumps in the right number of mods and techs, it's movement speed is a hair to fast, it's tracking is...actually it's tracking is entirely horrible

solderq1: oh yeah

solderq1: pls buff arty rof...

Evernewb: not just a little bit

solderq1: for the hammerheads!!!

AllBlankUnitFATE: (id also randomly change factions to have phalanxes)

Jan 19 - 10:36PM solderq1: hmm this change I like less

solderq1: XD

AllBlankUnitFATE: :)

AllBlankUnitFATE: that way, sometimes red would have them instead of shields. 50/50

Jan 19 - 10:37PM Evernewb: give them semi-random starting defensive structures?

AllBlankUnitFATE: yeah

AllBlankUnitFATE: Im not sure if it should be 50/50

AllBlankUnitFATE: or, a mix

zeus010101: 3 glad bays and this orange isnt dying

andrewonderer: fate qm?

Evernewb: ...phalanx+tac is a bit of a combo, might want to give them a chance of dud structures too if you do that

solderq1: @allblank that woudl be unfair to purple faction tho

AllBlankUnitFATE: not fighting right now

Evernewb: like barricades or cloak fields

AllBlankUnitFATE: what about purple?

solderq1: purple is useless vs yellow as it is

solderq1: if other factoin have phalanx

Jan 19 - 10:38PM solderq1: purple will be permanently neutered

solderq1: liek in skirmishes, flanks

AllBlankUnitFATE: well, it would be 50/50 in my mind

solderq1: I guess...

AllBlankUnitFATE: half the time, all shields. other half of the time, alll phals

AllBlankUnitFATE: I mean, a mix might also be ok?

solderq1: so only neutered half the time

solderq1: lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: like, 1-4 def structs. and they are a random mix?

Jan 19 - 10:39PM solderq1: sure

andrewonderer: jeff qm?

solderq1: in one

zeus010101: yellow vs orange whos better

andrewonderer: k

AllBlankUnitFATE: that would almost guarantee 1 phal per match

solderq1: orange duh lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: and ruin arty rushing

solderq1: ok

AllBlankUnitFATE: like, only 20% of the time would there be 0 phals

gluktar: gg

solderq1: gg

Jan 19 - 10:40PM andrewonderer: solder lets go

solderq1: hmm wrong trid

solderq1: oh well

AllBlankUnitFATE: another bufff the AI should get after level 10

AllBlankUnitFATE: is 50/50 shields

solderq1: like base shields?

solderq1: or what kind

andrewonderer: idk

AllBlankUnitFATE: mod shields

andrewonderer: base shields

solderq1: mod shields on ships?

AllBlankUnitFATE: yes

solderq1: k

Jan 19 - 10:41PM Evernewb: ...my miners are clumped to the point that they are providing a sucessfull defense against red's athenas

Evernewb: neat

andrewonderer: laaaaaaaaaaag

andrewonderer: so laggy :(

AllBlankUnitFATE: level 11+ would be like, 50%of the time everything has shields. 50% everythng is cloaked

AllBlankUnitFATE: I think it would make each match more unique

solderq1: well i mean ai get lots of unfair buffs...

solderq1: their resource multiplier

AllBlankUnitFATE: they do, but thats a boring buff

solderq1: makes sense for them to have weaknesses

Jan 19 - 10:42PM solderq1: ok

andrewonderer: gg

solderq1: lol

andrewonderer: lol

solderq1: bad reflexes

andrewonderer: nice strat right

andrewonderer: yeah

AllBlankUnitFATE: lets say all ships/turrets had shields

andrewonderer: my micro wasn't on point

solderq1: re?

andrewonderer: lel

AllBlankUnitFATE: that would require a rethinking of your tactics

andrewonderer: sure

AllBlankUnitFATE: and make "1 size fits all" harder to get

solderq1: @fate i see where this si going

solderq1: just cause you have 102 highscore

Jan 19 - 10:43PM solderq1: doesn't mean u havta sabotage others

solderq1: :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: lol. well its more that I know how samey it gets

andrewonderer: rip xD

solderq1: ...

AllBlankUnitFATE: and I want more situations to tackle

andrewonderer: heh

solderq1: @allblank we have one size fits all for a reason

Jan 19 - 10:44PM solderq1: we don't want to lose lives and pay lots of plat

solderq1: besides, do you want us resorting to turtling everything?

AllBlankUnitFATE: well, then stick to low levels

solderq1: cause i thought u are anti-turtle??

solderq1: I really don;t get you today...

andrewonderer: anyone qm?

zeus010101: in a sec

andrewonderer: gluktar?

AllBlankUnitFATE: why would I want the enemies to be boring

zeus010101: hey gluktar

Jan 19 - 10:45PM solderq1: why would I want the battle strat to be boring

solderq1: :P

andrewonderer: :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: just to say "hey I reached X level vs boring enemies"?

solderq1: weak enemy plus interesting strats available> interesting enemies but no viable interesting strats

AllBlankUnitFATE: also , the more the enemies mix things up, the more interesting it is for more people imo

zeus010101: andre qm or nah

Jan 19 - 10:46PM solderq1: Why woudl i want to say I got high level doing boring turtling

andrewonderer: nah

andrewonderer: with solder

AllBlankUnitFATE: imo, people dont go for high levels

zeus010101: oh

WildStar123: which is better: engine D or engine B

WildStar123: ?

zeus010101: b right

AllBlankUnitFATE: because its usually just more of the same

solderq1: :((

solderq1: stap

andrewonderer: :""""(

Evernewb: @wildstar neither

solderq1: DIE

solderq1: @fate I do

AllBlankUnitFATE: you need to think of making a game fun

andrewonderer: NO

solderq1: hah

Evernewb: a blank unit is better than a unit with an engine on almost all ships

solderq1: and on the contrary

zeus010101: of the 2 i think b is better

solderq1: I think ur approach discourages players

Jan 19 - 10:47PM solderq1: you wil make it so hard they can only turtle

AllBlankUnitFATE: nah

andrewonderer: UGHH

andrewonderer: :(

andrewonderer: gg

AllBlankUnitFATE: making the enemies more diverse is fun

andrewonderer: that first one was luck xD

AllBlankUnitFATE: imagine if there were no faction

andrewonderer: cool strat right??

AllBlankUnitFATE: and just all duels

AllBlankUnitFATE: boring.

solderq1: oh hey "I did a boring ass turtle on an interestign ai"

solderq1: how appealling amiright

AllBlankUnitFATE: wrong

Jan 19 - 10:48PM solderq1: wrong, its' not appealing? :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: turtles are the fate of all

AllBlankUnitFATE: even now

solderq1: whaddyou mean?

solderq1: fate of all?

AllBlankUnitFATE: level 100+ = turtling

solderq1: true

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, your argument is weak

solderq1: so you want ppl's lives to be miserable sooner

solderq1: thanks dude lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: its already boring early on

solderq1: no

solderq1: its fun with rushing

AllBlankUnitFATE: thats why people stop

Jan 19 - 10:49PM solderq1: if u take away rushing

andrewonderer: then the game gets boring

solderq1: all fun is gone

AllBlankUnitFATE: there is already no point

andrewonderer: idk

solderq1: idk why you're talking wiht fate

AllBlankUnitFATE: gear doesnt drop more

solderq1: but I personally like rushing

andrewonderer: rushing isnt the funest thing

solderq1: even if the enemy are boring

solderq1: see andre agrees lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: beating up weak enemies is boring

Jan 19 - 10:50PM solderq1: not for me

solderq1: XD

solderq1: and not really weak

AllBlankUnitFATE: like a bully beating up newbs all day

Evernewb: Fate, think how much more fun the game would be if fighters-from-bay -> mids was a viable option

andrewonderer: gg

solderq1: lol gg

andrewonderer: cheese

solderq1: ahh bad reflexes again...

andrewonderer: guess you didnt pay attention this time

Evernewb: giving the AI free defensive turrets is exactly what makes the game boring as hell

solderq1: lol

solderq1: oh yeah

solderq1: why don't we dubuff ai

Jan 19 - 10:51PM AllBlankUnitFATE: if the ai didnt have turrets

solderq1: no more turret spawnage

AllBlankUnitFATE: we could just rush them 100%

solderq1: ...

Evernewb: your ONLY option is to go for either an overwhelm or a 1/0 situation

solderq1: I sense hypocrisy here...

Evernewb: literally nothing else works

solderq1: Fate has been both for and against rushing...

AllBlankUnitFATE: solder, you just think from a greedy player's perspective

AllBlankUnitFATE: you're not thinking of the bigger picture

Jan 19 - 10:52PM solderq1: right I love turtling

solderq1: yup yup

AllBlankUnitFATE: like, giving players cheat codes

solderq1: good for the big picture

Evernewb: so buff fighters and nerf caps, kinda needs to be done anyways, a capital ship should be slightly stronger than it's resources in mids, and moderately stronger than it's resources in fighters

AllBlankUnitFATE: isnt fun

solderq1: let me ask you this

AllBlankUnitFATE: basically, cheap rushes are cheat codes

solderq1: is turtling any more fun?

solderq1: you like turtling much?

Evernewb: lesser units used in effective combinations should be greater than their cost in capitals

solderq1: cause YOU stopped playing camp once it was hard to rush :P

Jan 19 - 10:53PM AllBlankUnitFATE: I like having to adjust to multiple enemies

AllBlankUnitFATE: no, my goal was level 100

AllBlankUnitFATE: it always was.

solderq1: right

solderq1: but you stop at 102

solderq1: so you coulda continued

AllBlankUnitFATE: because I saw that the Difficulty number went up

AllBlankUnitFATE: the difficulty number on each mission

solderq1: so?

Jan 19 - 10:54PM solderq1: idk back to the question

AllBlankUnitFATE: it increased by 1 digit

solderq1: you liek turtling?

AllBlankUnitFATE: so you are wrong

solderq1: I think turtling is the most robotic part of the game

andrewonderer: anyone qm?

AllBlankUnitFATE: I like changing my strategy vs different enemies

Evernewb: if you take out the bulshit stiff the AI get and make it so the resource advantage is the primary change then players would get to much higher levels, but they would have FAR more open options for how they play

AllBlankUnitFATE: for instance

AllBlankUnitFATE: do I want to fight 1 enemy in pvp all day?

AllBlankUnitFATE: or 100 different players?

Jan 19 - 10:55PM AllBlankUnitFATE: 1 guy who never changes, 100 times

AllBlankUnitFATE: or 100 different single players

AllBlankUnitFATE: I know which is funner.

Evernewb: fate, the free turrets for AI are one of the problems for players

solderq1: uhh u avoid question

solderq1: is turtlign fun?

solderq1: in general

Jan 19 - 10:56PM AllBlankUnitFATE: different enemies require different tactics

solderq1: for example vs purple/yellow/red: spam phalanx/ biolab

Evernewb: no matter how you try to sell the idea putting a roadblock into the game stoping everything but the end part is an issue

solderq1: vs orange: phalanx+ ins turret+ biolab

solderq1: green: ins+phal+ vl

solderq1: only slight diff actually

solderq1: most factions are phalanx

solderq1: if not use ins microlaser

AllBlankUnitFATE: and more enemy options in a structured way is more fun

solderq1: soo much variation

Jan 19 - 10:57PM solderq1: well idk why u talk about the ai defensive turrets then

AllBlankUnitFATE: like, if they all got shield 50% of the time, freeze spores wouldnt work

AllBlankUnitFATE: Id have to have plan B

solderq1: whether yelow has tac shields or phalanx

solderq1: phalanx spam still works

solderq1: oh

solderq1: so vl is the new turtle meta

AllBlankUnitFATE: because that means arty rush doesnt work that 50%of the time

solderq1: not much change

andrewonderer: glad spam too

solderq1: it will become

Jan 19 - 10:58PM solderq1: vl spam all day

AllBlankUnitFATE: early on it wouldnt matter

solderq1: you're not fixing the problem fate

solderq1: I want oe3 to have less turtling...

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, lets make all factions 1 enemy

AllBlankUnitFATE: no phalanxes eer

solderq1: let me rephrase that

AllBlankUnitFATE: see. more rushing

solderq1: why is turtling so boring

AllBlankUnitFATE: oh, and remove all turrets

solderq1: turtlign is why I don't liek oe3

solderq1: ok

AllBlankUnitFATE: there, even more rushing

Jan 19 - 10:59PM andrewonderer: gg

AllBlankUnitFATE: see. I just made the game more fun with Solder logic

solderq1: ok i see your point

solderq1: but I don't think more turtling is the answer

solderq1: turtling isn't much fun either

solderq1: now instead of giving up at level 100 when turtlign is vital

solderq1: they give up at like level 70 or something

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, you think the game is perfectly correct?

Evernewb: guess why I'm not level 73-78?

solderq1: is that better, let me ask you

Jan 19 - 11:00PM AllBlankUnitFATE: cww must be a god to get things so perfect :p

Evernewb: I absolutely HATE taking 25 minutes a match

solderq1: of course not

solderq1: jsut think your approach is wrong

AllBlankUnitFATE: nah, there isnt anything wrong with my idea

AllBlankUnitFATE: it would increase your situations

Evernewb: it decreases your responses

AllBlankUnitFATE: and what you would have to deal with.

Jan 19 - 11:01PM solderq1: I still haven't heard your argument for why turtling is so much more fun than rushing

AllBlankUnitFATE: but not in a random way

AllBlankUnitFATE: early on, rushes could still work

solderq1: cause your plan is supposedly to stop ppl from giving up boring camp right?

solderq1: uhh back to the topic

solderq1: explain why turtling is more fun

solderq1: go on im listenign XD

Jan 19 - 11:02PM AllBlankUnitFATE: go on, explain why there shouldnt be only 1 faction with no turrets. go on, im listening

solderq1: im not arguing against 1 faction

solderq1: I have no problem whatsoever

solderq1: I'm just asking why turtling is more fun in your opinion

AllBlankUnitFATE: you say rushing all enemies is more fun

Jan 19 - 11:03PM AllBlankUnitFATE: so, I am just making the game more fun with more rushing

AllBlankUnitFATE: and 1 size fits all

AllBlankUnitFATE: the solder way

Evernewb: ...

Evernewb: Fate, you're talking like an equivocator

Evernewb: stop

AllBlankUnitFATE: no :p

solderq1: fate I was just genuinely curious for why turtling is better

solderq1: stop turning it back to why i support rusing

AllBlankUnitFATE: diversity is more fun

solderq1: that's irrelevant ok

Jan 19 - 11:04PM AllBlankUnitFATE: its not

AllBlankUnitFATE: and I can easily turn it on you

solderq1: stop dodging this questoin...

solderq1: i just want to know ok

Evernewb: that's kinda why destroying viable options for players is a bad thing

AllBlankUnitFATE: becuase your argument is just as weak

solderq1: well this is based on opinions

AllBlankUnitFATE: if turtling is bad, and rushing is good

solderq1: how can you quantify opinions

solderq1: well in your words fate

AllBlankUnitFATE: then I am making the game better by increasing rushing

Evernewb: you're proposing to make it so that the only viable option is to build up to an overwhelm point with beam weapons

Jan 19 - 11:05PM solderq1: yea im quoting you.. "less time spent on battles= better"

solderq1: don't be hypocritical k

AllBlankUnitFATE: better is subjective

AllBlankUnitFATE: you just dont get making the game better

solderq1: no I see this plan as causing even more 1 size fits all

solderq1: it's called turtle

AllBlankUnitFATE: nah

Evernewb: inotherwords: you are making us into one faction with ONLY turrets, one size fits all

solderq1: you stifle diversity sir

Jan 19 - 11:06PM AllBlankUnitFATE: it might make turtling appear earlier

solderq1: you stifle diversity...

AllBlankUnitFATE: but it overall increases diversity

solderq1: only turtling with slight differences between the turtles

solderq1: liek vl vs biolab

solderq1: only a tiny difference

AllBlankUnitFATE: you can already be 1 thing

Evernewb: no, no it does not, if you don't have the ability to plan ahead then you are forced to take only general use options into a fight, which means planning on the part you DO know about

solderq1: besides

Jan 19 - 11:07PM AllBlankUnitFATE: you can turtle at level 1

solderq1: some ppl have build geared specifically to fight orange

Evernewb: which is the possible combinations you need to defend against

solderq1: now all there are no specific enemies

AllBlankUnitFATE: yes

solderq1: so you HAVE to have one size fits all

solderq1: how is that not stifling diversity

AllBlankUnitFATE: now you could have to have a build vs shield orange, or cloak orange

solderq1: lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: thats boosting how you deal with things

solderq1: vl for both situations

solderq1: literally teh same :P

Evernewb: even moreso you're making the game only 1 attitude, one that most people do not enjoy

Jan 19 - 11:08PM solderq1: yeah

AllBlankUnitFATE: not so

solderq1: soem ppl get a kick out of beatign of weak infest

solderq1: you make every ai same strength

AllBlankUnitFATE: so stick to lower levels

solderq1: all is more monochrome

solderq1: imo

AllBlankUnitFATE: beat the crap out of level 10

AllBlankUnitFATE: just like some people stick to level 1-4

solderq1: what diff does shield and cloak make??

solderq1: void lance still kilsl them all

Jan 19 - 11:09PM AllBlankUnitFATE: and eventually you will reach a level where you are stuck

AllBlankUnitFATE: even today

solderq1: your argument doesn't hold water cause the ai doesn't change in a meaningful way

solderq1: a cloaked shield goli

solderq1: still dies by a void lance

AllBlankUnitFATE: of course it holds water

solderq1: hah nice try

AllBlankUnitFATE: the cloak isnt meant so much for caps

solderq1: see above, vl is too mutli purpose

Jan 19 - 11:10PM AllBlankUnitFATE: its meant more for the fighters

AllBlankUnitFATE: or meds

solderq1: for fighers?

AllBlankUnitFATE: but it does cause you to rethink how to deal with each enemy

Evernewb: stiiiiil making it so that you are attempting to defend in 1 way instead of attack in several ways

solderq1: yeah

AllBlankUnitFATE: no

zeus010101: nice laser in store

solderq1: I still feel like diversity is stifled

Evernewb: people enjoy working on winning much more than waiting untill they are allowed to win

AllBlankUnitFATE: I am giving you reasons to attack in different ways

Jan 19 - 11:11PM solderq1: waht does attack have to do with it

solderq1: at high level u have to turtle

solderq1: defense is priority

AllBlankUnitFATE: rather than solder, hypocritically saying that he wants "1 size fits all" but now claims he wants lots of way to attack

Evernewb: he never said that

Evernewb: you did

AllBlankUnitFATE: he did

AllBlankUnitFATE: in other chats

Jan 19 - 11:12PM solderq1: well by one size fits all

AllBlankUnitFATE: so wrong :p

solderq1: I mean one tech setup

AllBlankUnitFATE: yeah

solderq1: for example 3 hs

solderq1: works not only for hh

AllBlankUnitFATE: thats why I meant too

solderq1: but gladbio

solderq1: that's at least 2 strats :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: I want to increase the diversity of multiple tech set ups

solderq1: not to mention turtling vs orange

solderq1: aka u want ppl to lose lives

Evernewb: if you want to do that then you fix inbalances in the units

AllBlankUnitFATE: by 50/50 giving the enemy shields

Jan 19 - 11:13PM AllBlankUnitFATE: it forces you to either come back with a new build

Evernewb: nobody uses missiles because missiles have shit tracking and are utterly ruined by phalanxes

AllBlankUnitFATE: or have your set up have a second back up plan

solderq1: 10/10 for makign ppl quit oe3 cause they are out of lives LMAO

AllBlankUnitFATE: well, maybe lives shouldnt exist

AllBlankUnitFATE: :)

Evernewb: you don't use mids because the vast majority of mids can never recoup their cost in work done

solderq1: ok

solderq1: if you get rid of lives

solderq1: I will support ALL of your suggestions

solderq1: ok?

AllBlankUnitFATE: there are other way too

Jan 19 - 11:14PM Evernewb: you don't use fighters as more than a status effect or chaff because they have no permanence or potency

solderq1: I can't support not being able ot use one tech setup

solderq1: if there are lives

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, your my argument was right. it was the lives that was wrong

Jan 19 - 11:15PM solderq1: besides, pretty much any tech setup works for turtle tbh

Evernewb: again with the equivocator bulsith

AllBlankUnitFATE: Im talking about all gear

solderq1: 3 hs works just as well as base shield freeze manu for instance

Evernewb: heh, bulsith

solderq1: when you turtle

solderq1: it really doesn't matter your techs

AllBlankUnitFATE: its not equivicating evern

Evernewb: gotta love accidentally valid typos

solderq1: then again who am I talking too...

AllBlankUnitFATE: you position is not unassailable

solderq1: Fate the master rusher

Jan 19 - 11:16PM solderq1: fate you realize you can turtle with lots of different techs...

AllBlankUnitFATE: rushing saves time :)

Evernewb: you are asserting connections and then attempting to move the conversation on to have them accepted

solderq1: your suggestions doesn't decrease one size fits all imo

Evernewb: usually lacing posession of the connection on someone else

AllBlankUnitFATE: it totally does solder

AllBlankUnitFATE: no evern, Im saying your position is no stronger

solderq1: really?

Jan 19 - 11:17PM AllBlankUnitFATE: yes

solderq1: cause I could turtle with base shield base canon freeze and battpack for example

solderq1: no matter the enemy

solderq1: i can turtle no prob

AllBlankUnitFATE: if the enemy had ship shields, you may need other set ups

solderq1: nope

solderq1: I always use void lance

AllBlankUnitFATE: so youll have to dig into your inventory

solderq1: :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: and find something new to try

solderq1: Dude

solderq1: I always have void lance

Jan 19 - 11:18PM solderq1: ppl will find ways to do one tech setup

solderq1: very possible, vl is very versatile

AllBlankUnitFATE: no they wont

AllBlankUnitFATE: they will TRY

AllBlankUnitFATE: to find 1 set up

AllBlankUnitFATE: like I did

AllBlankUnitFATE: like you did

solderq1: oh yeah?

AllBlankUnitFATE: eventually it stops working

solderq1: if I wanted

Jan 19 - 11:19PM solderq1: I coudl turtle all the factions with the same tech setup

solderq1: it would work 10/10

solderq1: turtling is meant to be versatile...

Jan 19 - 11:20PM solderq1: since you can buy time with turtling the exact mods/ techs don't matter as much

AllBlankUnitFATE: yup and just because there is turtling

solderq1: so it doesn't matter you have a weak hammerhead

solderq1: you can just keep turtlling

solderq1: and make 10 of these weak hh

AllBlankUnitFATE: doesnt mean there arent more ways to deal with a diverse enemy

solderq1: so the techs really don't matter as much in a turtle

solderq1: ...

Jan 19 - 11:21PM AllBlankUnitFATE: Im not just talking just about techs tho

solderq1: Phalanx+ insured blaster+ lasers+ void lance covers all of them I think

solderq1: good luck findign counter to that turtle lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: I think cloaked ships might slip in

solderq1: hahaha

solderq1: good joke sir

Jan 19 - 11:22PM solderq1: very good joke

solderq1: they wil fire at the turrets

solderq1: thereby revealign themselves

AllBlankUnitFATE: and cause the VL sometimes to misfire

AllBlankUnitFATE: but that doesnt mean VL cant also be rebalanced

solderq1: so?

solderq1: one can make more vl's

solderq1: haha

AllBlankUnitFATE: in addition

AllBlankUnitFATE: the basic principle holds

solderq1: fate sees a chink in the "turtles are invincable theory", wants to nerf th vl

Jan 19 - 11:23PM AllBlankUnitFATE: a more diverse enemy, force the player to come up with more solutions

Evernewb: weakening the only viable methodology simply limits the only viable methodology...

solderq1: nope

solderq1: like i say

AllBlankUnitFATE: in addition, I am always in favor of nerfs

solderq1: phalanx+ ins blaster+ vl+ damage turrets kills all of them

AllBlankUnitFATE: nerf a bunch of stuff

AllBlankUnitFATE: remove FG

AllBlankUnitFATE: etc

solderq1: @fate I wonder how much you turtle yourself?

solderq1: I turtled all my levels before you showed me rushing

Jan 19 - 11:24PM solderq1: You seem rusty on the mechanics of turtling if I may say so...

AllBlankUnitFATE: I know, thats why you were so slow on getting higher

solderq1: well im just saying

solderq1: pls research your topic before you argue...

solderq1: you underestimate the void lance I think

AllBlankUnitFATE: my argument isnt wrong tho

Jan 19 - 11:25PM AllBlankUnitFATE: I never said nerfing wasnt going to happen

AllBlankUnitFATE: if buffs were to happen to the AI

solderq1: Uhh well i know you haven't turtled in a while

AllBlankUnitFATE: why would I also limit changes to players?

solderq1: but imo, all your changes will have minimal effect

AllBlankUnitFATE: thats you putting words in my mouth

solderq1: No matter what the ai is

solderq1: they can be turtled

Jan 19 - 11:26PM solderq1: that's what a turtle is

solderq1: sacrificing time for versatility

AllBlankUnitFATE: and Ive always said that

solderq1: Often times I make dumb capitals like mastodon spam from a turtle

solderq1: cause the turtle is so strong doesn't matter what ships I use

AllBlankUnitFATE: ok and?

solderq1: so

solderq1: doesn't matter how u change ai

Jan 19 - 11:27PM solderq1: will still be turtle-able

AllBlankUnitFATE: I am the one who used to say turtling would always win in the end

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, youre not telling me something new

solderq1: only op shit in pvp like fg stuff and range range stuff can break turtles

solderq1: ai don't have access to this...

solderq1: or am I wrong XDD

solderq1: ai are weaker than players, can't break turtles well

Jan 19 - 11:28PM AllBlankUnitFATE: yeah, cww buffed players over and over and over

solderq1: I mean maybe if phalanx was nerfed...

solderq1: but idk

AllBlankUnitFATE: VL usd to not exist

solderq1: yup

solderq1: imo

AllBlankUnitFATE: only biolab was the cap killer

AllBlankUnitFATE: 1 hitter

solderq1: vl and phalanx make your argument moot

AllBlankUnitFATE: cobra didnt exist. cloud was more annoyng

Jan 19 - 11:29PM solderq1: vl, phalanx, insured micro/blaster

solderq1: these are the holy grail

AllBlankUnitFATE: yeah, all sorts of nerfs to players could happen

solderq1: with these all can be turtled

solderq1: try to argue how ai could break that turtle

solderq1: woudl be very hard imo

AllBlankUnitFATE: for instance, I think VL needs a range nerf

AllBlankUnitFATE: at the least

Jan 19 - 11:30PM solderq1: ok

solderq1: I think we agree that with current unit stats, yoru idea doesn't work

AllBlankUnitFATE: oh, I also forgot that the AI might have another mod set

solderq1: turrets are too strong

solderq1: Without these nerfs you say

solderq1: turtle is simply too good

AllBlankUnitFATE: my idea does work

AllBlankUnitFATE: even with turrets as they are

solderq1: ok

AllBlankUnitFATE: but it would drain lives yes

Jan 19 - 11:31PM solderq1: how to break vl+ range range phal+ insurance freeze blaster turtle

solderq1: please explain

solderq1: use campaign ships

solderq1: maybe throw in base shield for good measure

AllBlankUnitFATE: but that doesnt matter to my argument

Jan 19 - 11:32PM solderq1: yeah it does

solderq1: this setup breaks any ai attack

solderq1: so your ai buffs are mainly irrelevant

AllBlankUnitFATE: it makes most players play and experience a difference in the game

Jan 19 - 11:33PM zeus010101: can you win a fight with glads

solderq1: very slight diff

solderq1: skilled people can still turtle

AllBlankUnitFATE: a difference in how enemies appear, and how most players deal with it

solderq1: most= don't know how to turle

solderq1: turtle

solderq1: kk gotcha lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: and thats why I say you dont see the bigger picture

solderq1: ok....

Jan 19 - 11:34PM solderq1: I shoudl think like newb

solderq1: but in the begining

AllBlankUnitFATE: you only think about from the most knowledgable player perspective

solderq1: you say you want more people to get to high level

solderq1: so I thought it was appropiate

AllBlankUnitFATE: I talk about the bigger picture, from most players perspectives

solderq1: I see

solderq1: more borign for the experienced

solderq1: better for newb

Jan 19 - 11:35PM AllBlankUnitFATE: you could still press forward

solderq1: idk

AllBlankUnitFATE: it would just stop more rushes earlier on

solderq1: I guess there's nothign wrong with your idea

solderq1: But this won't make a difference farther down the line, at high level

solderq1: people will still do one size fits all

Jan 19 - 11:36PM AllBlankUnitFATE: at level 100, you definitely have to rely on luck and changing ships

AllBlankUnitFATE: I wouldnt mind at all if this happened earlier

solderq1: well I suppose I have no authority there

solderq1: but we should dump the lives system

solderq1: nothing is more depressing to a newb

Jan 19 - 11:37PM solderq1: than having no lives, cause unlike an experienced player, newb doesn't have lots of plat to buy more lives

solderq1: look at the big picture man

AllBlankUnitFATE: I see why cww made the lives system, Im just not sure he incentivized it enough

solderq1: newbs will quit if they lose more lives k

solderq1: your suggestions seem self-defeating

AllBlankUnitFATE: nice try

AllBlankUnitFATE: but no

zeus010101: why not 20 lives for the bottom maps 15 for middlih maps and 10 for advanced and beyond

Jan 19 - 11:38PM solderq1: go on fate...

AllBlankUnitFATE: boring missions can also depress a newbie

AllBlankUnitFATE: see? :)

solderq1: better a boring mission than none at all :)

AllBlankUnitFATE: if the enemy is always the sasme old same old

AllBlankUnitFATE: game dev is a balance.

solderq1: well if they literally can't play at all...

Jan 19 - 11:39PM solderq1: there's no bigger turnoff

solderq1: than being barred from the game

AllBlankUnitFATE: the point of the lives system

solderq1: period!

AllBlankUnitFATE: is to move them to pvp

AllBlankUnitFATE: so no. not period

solderq1: heh

solderq1: where they get crushed by experienced guy

solderq1: then they quit for good lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: but cww didnt really incentivize the lives system right

Jan 19 - 11:40PM AllBlankUnitFATE: for instance, there is no direct prize for losing in pvp

solderq1: well going back... you say you want people to keep going with CAMPAIGN.

AllBlankUnitFATE: and there are no leauges

solderq1: if they do pvp

AllBlankUnitFATE: no solder

solderq1: what does the ai changes matter lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: you want to box me into 1 thing

AllBlankUnitFATE: but I dont let you

AllBlankUnitFATE: I view the game as a whole.

AllBlankUnitFATE: bigger picture, bro :)

Jan 19 - 11:41PM solderq1: right so you envision like 50 different fixes

AllBlankUnitFATE: also, pvp > campaign

solderq1: good luck getting cww to do all that :P

AllBlankUnitFATE: always been my motto

AllBlankUnitFATE: we're just talking theory here. cww has given up on oe3

solderq1: yeah ik

Jan 19 - 11:42PM solderq1: just a cheap jab cause you want soo many different things

solderq1: I think we've realized oe3 just needs too many fixes...

AllBlankUnitFATE: well, there are always changes to make

AllBlankUnitFATE: I dont believe in "good enough"

solderq1: haha like 100 changes

AllBlankUnitFATE: or "if it aint broken, dont fix it"

solderq1: mmmph

Jan 19 - 11:43PM AllBlankUnitFATE: because in my mind, everything is broken

AllBlankUnitFATE: that goes for literallly everything :p

solderq1: I sitll notice how you make these suggestions AFTER you exploited these things and rushed your way to level 100

AllBlankUnitFATE: of course. Im the pioneer

solderq1: Ruin the fun for others why don't you

AllBlankUnitFATE: I break the game

AllBlankUnitFATE: so I know how to fix it :)

solderq1: well idk

Jan 19 - 11:44PM solderq1: fighting cloaked or shielded caps doesn't make them suddenly interestign imo

solderq1: just another boring turtle...

AllBlankUnitFATE: it would at least force you to change from

AllBlankUnitFATE: plop 2 arties, go away

solderq1: ok

solderq1: one boring strat replaced by another

solderq1: *slow clap

AllBlankUnitFATE: sometimes that would work. other times, you go with plan b

Jan 19 - 11:45PM solderq1: no,

AllBlankUnitFATE: 2 strats > 1

solderq1: always plan a

solderq1: turtle

AllBlankUnitFATE: nah

solderq1: cause plan a always work

AllBlankUnitFATE: like I said, sometimes the battles would allow for rushes

AllBlankUnitFATE: because its only 50/50

AllBlankUnitFATE: that would happen

solderq1: @fate I think you assume that ppl will do reckless rushes, and retry when it doesn't work

solderq1: the more conservative will just turtle every battle

AllBlankUnitFATE: some will

AllBlankUnitFATE: some wont

solderq1: thus nullifiying your argument

Jan 19 - 11:46PM solderq1: well think of it this way

solderq1: reckless guy loses lives

AllBlankUnitFATE: I think players see the same enemy over and over, and think its boring

solderq1: conservative guy doesn't

solderq1: who gets farther in campaign hmmm...

solderq1: eventually reckless rusher resorts to turtlign too

AllBlankUnitFATE: eventually.

AllBlankUnitFATE: sam as now

solderq1: cause the rusher is otu of lives

solderq1: it's only 6 lives lost

AllBlankUnitFATE: same as now.

solderq1: thta happens at any level actually

Jan 19 - 11:47PM AllBlankUnitFATE: all that would happen is people would get stuck earlier, which is fine

solderq1: ok well... if it's the same how does your modifications change anything for the better...

AllBlankUnitFATE: the diversity is worth it

solderq1: well that's what you say

solderq1: I don't care what faction they are

solderq1: all the same to me

AllBlankUnitFATE: right, but thats you

Jan 19 - 11:48PM solderq1: just phalanx+ ins freeze blaster+ vl

solderq1: well if you can't rush

solderq1: you can only turtle

AllBlankUnitFATE: that also happens at level 100

AllBlankUnitFATE: same as now.

AllBlankUnitFATE: or if we find a way to rush, that will still stop somewhere

AllBlankUnitFATE: maybe 150, etc.

AllBlankUnitFATE: same idea.

Jan 19 - 11:49PM solderq1: uhh so what diff does this make then

solderq1: it stops rushing sure

AllBlankUnitFATE: or, cww can add another wrinkle to the AI

solderq1: but turtling is exactly the same

zeus010101: can the com have 2 caps

AllBlankUnitFATE: no

AllBlankUnitFATE: each faction is set to what ships it can use

Jan 19 - 11:50PM AllBlankUnitFATE: turtling is the same, if you want it to be

AllBlankUnitFATE: I could turtle level 1

solderq1: yup

solderq1: turtling is versatile that's the point

solderq1: works at all levels

AllBlankUnitFATE: but even with my changes

AllBlankUnitFATE: rushes would still work

solderq1: who would do that?

AllBlankUnitFATE: they would just get caught earlier

solderq1: risky and loses lives

solderq1: definitely not the newbs... they need to save their lives

AllBlankUnitFATE: lots of people enjoy dealing with risks

Jan 19 - 11:51PM solderq1: which they can't pay for

AllBlankUnitFATE: thats why rogue-likes exist

solderq1: rogue-likes?

AllBlankUnitFATE: but yeah, the live system might change

solderq1: when newbs lose lives, 95/100 times they just quit

AllBlankUnitFATE: rogue-likes, a game where you get 1 life

solderq1: very rarely these days the go to multiplayer

AllBlankUnitFATE: and have to start over vs a totally random series of dungeons

Jan 19 - 11:52PM solderq1: oh

solderq1: but point being

AllBlankUnitFATE: they are called Rogue-Likes

solderq1: since when do newbs do multi when they lose lives

solderq1: they just quit

solderq1: not a good way to boost the player base

AllBlankUnitFATE: since Rogue was the first popular game of its type

AllBlankUnitFATE: Ive seen newbie and middling players go to pvp

solderq1: yeah...

solderq1: 1 in 20 newbs

solderq1: at best

AllBlankUnitFATE: after they talk about losing their lives

Jan 19 - 11:53PM solderq1: hahaha

solderq1: once every blue moon

AllBlankUnitFATE: well yes, cww said he doesnt want the lives system in oe4

solderq1: yeah

solderq1: many times i ask newbs to qm

solderq1: they say something like "I have no miners"

solderq1: "I have bad ships so no"

zeus010101: that was me

Jan 19 - 11:54PM AllBlankUnitFATE: and they know about miners

AllBlankUnitFATE: because better players tell them to get them

solderq1: so I think making more restarts just makes players less liekly to play in general

AllBlankUnitFATE: or give up

zeus010101: qm anyone

AllBlankUnitFATE: but then again, extractor isnt so much worse than blank miner

Jan 19 - 11:55PM solderq1: come off of it

solderq1: more lives lost= more newb quitting

solderq1: that's the simple truth

AllBlankUnitFATE: Im on my blank account, and have a 1500 rating with it in pvp with extractors something

AllBlankUnitFATE: ok n lives

AllBlankUnitFATE: on

solderq1: look at big picture lol

solderq1: not every newb can play like you

hamman247: goodnight

Jan 19 - 11:56PM zeus010101: night

solderq1: it's not just about ships, it's about experience and technique

AllBlankUnitFATE: Im not sure I am defensing lives

solderq1: uhh well

AllBlankUnitFATE: I am defending diverse enemies tho

solderq1: buffing ai= more lives lost

solderq1: at least the way you put it

Jan 19 - 11:57PM AllBlankUnitFATE: well, I will bend much more on the live system

solderq1: you want players to retry, not to do same thing

AllBlankUnitFATE: than the enemy diversity idea

AllBlankUnitFATE: the one thing I used to tell cww

solderq1: well they are connected

AllBlankUnitFATE: was, to give players something to get when they lose

solderq1: more diversity is meant to break one size fits all right?

Jan 19 - 11:58PM AllBlankUnitFATE: newbs are kinda materialistic

AllBlankUnitFATE: they need something in hand for a loss

solderq1: mm hmm

AllBlankUnitFATE: lots of them dont see "learning" as a prize

AllBlankUnitFATE: so that turns them off

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, cww put in lives

AllBlankUnitFATE: that gets them out of camp

Jan 19 - 11:59PM AllBlankUnitFATE: but how to keep them in pvp?

solderq1: welp

solderq1: so you want people to lose camp more?

AllBlankUnitFATE: I always told cww he needs to give incentives to losers

solderq1: all that 'diversity"

solderq1: just designed for more camp loss

solderq1: gg

zeus010101: gg longer than last time

AllBlankUnitFATE: yes, thats why I said

AllBlankUnitFATE: incentives

Jan 20 - 12:00AM AllBlankUnitFATE: if the live system is to stay

solderq1: well all of your multi suggestions are kinda moot

solderq1: not enough ppl in multi for leagues or whatever

AllBlankUnitFATE: and since I have talked with cww about this before

AllBlankUnitFATE: and I used to talk to him about it

AllBlankUnitFATE: when this chat room had 200 people in it

solderq1: ah

solderq1: well too late now lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: I was telling him, we need ranks

Jan 20 - 12:01AM AllBlankUnitFATE: we need incentives in pvp

solderq1: all your suggestions mean nothing if no one plays

AllBlankUnitFATE: so, no

zeus010101: all right im gonna go to another game to much arguments

zeus010101: night all

solderq1: lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: Im not making up these ideas just for you

AllBlankUnitFATE: and just for todays oe3

solderq1: well obviously not lol

AllBlankUnitFATE: surrrrrrre.