belisarius [12:21]
Spooky, just out of curiosity, why do you think there are so few women in STEM fields in general?

spookyboogy [12:22]
Girls just tend to not want to go into stem fields

belisarius [12:22]
But why?

spookyboogy [12:22]
I am no doubt about to be called a sexist for this, but just because girls tend to not enjoy engineering and science and shit

[12:22]
Please note, I am not saying that no girl enjoys Stem subjects

[12:22]
Because I know that's not true

belisarius [12:23]
Well, I'm not going to call you sexist for that, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on why that is.

spookyboogy [12:23]
And while it was true a long time ago that there were barriers for women, now there aren't

[12:23]
I think it's just a biological thing

wallflowerette [12:23]
I think its a society and parent rearing thing

belisarius [12:24]
I'm no biologist, but I'm inclined to agree with wallflowerette on this one
spookyboogy [12:24]
I distinctly remember a study where parents were asked to play with children, but the children were dressed like the opposite gender and the parents were presented with mixed "gender" toys

[12:24]
Eg trucks and princesses and shit right?

belisarius [12:24]
OK

spookyboogy [12:25]
So the parents tried to get the children to play with the toys they thought the child would like, eg for girls princesses and for boys trucks

[12:25]
These were like, really young children aswell

belisarius [12:25]
Ok

wallflowerette [12:25]
so they didn't "know" any better?

spookyboogy [12:25]
But the kids just weren't going for it, and naturally went for the "standard gender" toys

wallflowerette [12:25]
*"better"

belisarius [12:26]
Well I'd be interested to see that study I suppose, but it seems like quite a  leap from Tonka trucks to 'women are biologically disinclined to STEM fields'

spookyboogy [12:27]
It was a TV thing, I wish I could remember the name but I don't :(

wallflowerette [12:27]
haha, I just think throughout our life, we're not encouraged to do that, so I'm all for the push at earlier ages that STEM careers are an option.  From parents, peers, and media. All three directly shape a child's view.

[12:28]
I'm lucky my dad changed his whole outlook on genders by the time they had me, since I have 6 older sisters and just one older brother (plus a little bro)

belisarius [12:28]
Well, first, I'd countenance a certain degree of scepticism towards TV 'studies' in general, I mean the scientific community are constantly frustrated by the way studies are portrayed to the general public.

wallflowerette [12:29]
I usually look to see who is funding the study and how large is the study (aka the N)

spookyboogy [12:29]
I mean, they show the tests and all that

wallflowerette [12:30]
But alas, work awaits. This was an interesting conversation to stumble upon this morning!!

spookyboogy [12:31]
I definitely think that if a girl wants to go into stem, there is nothing stopping her

belisarius [12:33]
Ok, you've said that a lot of times, and I have a good friend who is in science

[12:33]
She has a rather different view to you.

[12:34]
Which is to say, that on the way to getting her PhD she had to deal with a lot of shit

[12:35]
So, I suppose there wasn't anything stopping her, since she succeeded, but there were plenty of obstacles that weren't necessarily obvious.

spookyboogy [12:35]
I mean, everyone has to deal with a lot of shit on the wsy to a PhD, that's the point

belisarius [12:36]
I mean specifically sexual harassment, being told she shouldn't be there, being the only woman in all male environments and basically being excluded, hearing people say women are biologically ill suited to STEM etc.

[12:36]
Some of the things you yourself have said, were things that effectively disparaged her presence in that field.

[12:37]
Now, she's a pretty tough lady, but nobody ever singled out her male colleagues in the same way.

spookyboogy [12:40]
I mean, that's shitty, not gonna deny that, but that's shitty people, not some institutional thing

belisarius [12:41]
Now that isn't proof of some kind of STEM wide systemic problem, that's just one woman's story about her life.

[12:42]
But, surely, considering the numbers, perhaps you might ask whether there is "nothing stopping her" at all.

[12:43]
Which is to say, perhaps there are things that are just not at all obvious to you, or which aren't an issue at your specific college, that are contributing to this pretty marked lack of women in STEM fields.

[12:44]
I mean, you can say they're shitty people, but if tons of STEM workplaces have shitty people working there, isn't that an institutional thing?

spookyboogy [12:44]
See, now you're going from one woman's anecdotal experience to implying a systematic issue

belisarius [12:45]
Well I explicitly said that her story is not evidence of a wider systemic issue.

[12:46]
The numbers however, do seem to fly in the face of the "nothing stopping them" theory.

rozz [12:47]
How long ago was this?

belisarius [12:47]
She got her PhD in 2014

[12:48]
Like I said, it's just one person's experience.

spookyboogy [12:51]
Or it could just be that lots of women don't want to go into stem

belisarius [12:51]
It could be that Spooky, but I feel like that's not a particularly satisfying answer.

[12:52]
Why, for instance, do women leave STEM positions in far higher numbers than their male colleagues?

[12:52]
That's not a lack of desire for the job, but perhaps something els.e

spookyboogy [12:53]
Because recently they've been increasingly pushed into stem by the media and discovered that they just don't like it

[12:53]
​*Possibly*​

belisarius [12:53]
OK, that's possible

[12:53]
But surely you'd agree that it's also ​*possible*​ that there are other factors at work.

[12:54]
And that it's hardly likely to be as simple as "women just hate STEM"

spookyboogy [12:54]
Sure, but I would hesitate to jump to attributing huge systematic issues to a problem that could just be "We don't really like stem"

[12:54]
I wouldn't be surprised if it's as simple as that tbh

belisarius [12:55]
Well it feels like you've already concluded that this is the case.

[12:55]
But I haven't seen a ton of evidence of it.

[12:56]
I mean, surely you'd agree that it's ​*possible*​ for there to be systemic issues in any field yes?

spookyboogy [12:56]
And it feels like you've come to the conclusion that stem is a horrible misogynistic field that hates women and stuff, but I haven't seen a ton of evidence specifically for that either

belisarius [12:56]
I can't imagine why you'd say that, I haven't made any such claim.

spookyboogy [12:57]
>I mean, you can say they're shitty people, but if tons of STEM workplaces have shitty people working there, isn't that an institutional thing?
Which you said after talking about your friends experience with shitty people who act pretty misogynistic

belisarius [12:57]
Yeah, but I didn't say that was the case, I said ​*if*​

[12:58]
If that is the case, is it not institutional was my point.

[13:00]
Which is to say, your explanation of "shitty people" ​_could_​ (note I'm not saying you're doing this, or that you would) be used to simply dismiss a systemic issue by attributing it to many cases of shitty people.

[13:01]
Now I certainly wouldn't call STEM horrible, that's crazy talk.  STEM is valuable, and deeply important on a number of levels.

spookyboogy [13:01]
I mean, judging by the shitstorm that's been going on for the last couple days, there seems to be a large number of shitty people around these days :p

belisarius [13:02]
Well, shitty people is a pretty vague term.  One person's shitty is another person's shiny etc.

spookyboogy [13:02]
Sure, sure

[13:02]
I'm not trying to he specific here :P

frostilion [13:02]
My grandpa loves rusty things...

spookyboogy [13:02]
​_The feel of the rust against my salad fingers is almost orgasmic_​

belisarius [13:03]
​_Shudder_​

spookyboogy [13:06]
Salad fingers was the don't hug me I'm scared of the 00s

belisarius [13:07]
Anyway spooky, I gotta go walk my dog.  I'll just leave you with this: Consider the possibility that we both could be right, or that the reality is far more complex than either of us can really imagine.  In which case, it is incumbent upon us to adopt a posture of humility.  Also I'd encourage you to reach out to your female colleagues and genuinely ask them about it if you haven't, if nothing else, their perspective is probably different even if they agree with you.

[13:08]
DHMIS was less disturbing, more thought provoking than Salad Fingers, but everything that guy made was creepy as hell.

spookyboogy [13:08]
Well, I don't have any right now, I'm the only one in my school taking sciences :D

[13:08]
Next year we'll see, when I actually go to uni

[13:10]
>Only one in my school
Only one in my year I mean

frostilion [13:22]
I went to a small school too @spookyboogy

[13:23]
Graduated with 7 other kids

[13:23]
k-12 had 79 people

[13:24]
up until 7th grade it was just me and another dude lol then we exploded our freshman year 3 new kids.

spookyboogy [13:29]
It's pretty great :smile: