There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12073
Author: Chris Rodda
Comment:
ROFL ... Did cswella really just resort to comparing me to David Barton? That's almost as funny as a good Helen Keller joke!
Permalink: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/

This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

6:05 PM (12 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12074
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
<blockquote>Seriously, nobody thinks Helen Keller would mistake a dog for a cat.</blockquote>

We've been over this already. It's called "hipster *ism." Everyone basically pretends that we're just so over the issue in question and then it becomes okay to make the jokes we wouldn't even want to make if we were over it.

Here is how hipster racism is described:

<blockquote><i>Hipster racism, a term coined around 2006 in an article by Carmen Van Kerckhove, is described as the use of irony and satire to mask racism. It is the use of blatantly racist comments in an attempt to be controversial and edgy. Its irony is established in <b>a somewhat post-racial belief</b> that blatant expressions of genuine racism <b>are no longer taken seriously</b> and are an outdated way of thinking, thereby making the use of such overt expressions satiric.</i> --Wikipedia [emphasis mine]</blockquote>

And here's Natalie Reed, on the endless iterations of that whole "seriously, nobody thinks ..." bullshit:

<blockquote><i>Hipster Misogyny is connected strongly to Hipster Racism. What is hipster racism? I can’t believe you don’t know! You’re dumb as an overheated negro! LOLZ! That was ironic. See, like, I’m so obviously not racist (I mean, how can I be? I have a ODB tattoo and totally love James Brown, Brenda Holloway and Mos Def! And I, like, totally have read Langston Hughes, bell hooks and Angela Davis ), and so obviously I didn’t really mean it. See I’m not making fun of black people, I’m making fun of racism. Who even says “negro” anymore? It’s old-timey, so it’s funny. I mean, c’mon, you must be really retarded to not realize all that! What? Retarded isn’t able-ist, yeesh! God, I’m totally not against retards. I’m just making fun of the fact that making fun of retards is funny. Wow, you’re lame. I’m going to go listen to Bad Brains to show how non-racist I am. What, you’re mad that they’re violent homophobes?! Yeah, but I enjoy their raging hatred of gay men ironically. Obviously I’m cool with gay people. I mean, I totally love The Scissor Sisters and I read Savage Love every week. And I kissed a dude once at a party when I was drunk, and I even go to gay bars like, all the time. And remember how much I love Langston Hughes? And yeah, I’m down with trannies, too. I’ve seen two whole seasons of Ru Paul’s Drag Race, and I own that album by Antony &amp; The Johnsons!  And I love Joy Division’s cover of “Sister Ray”. Wait, you’re mad that I said “trannies”? But I’m reclaiming it, just like Ru Paul does. *eyeroll*</i> --Sincerely, Natalie Reed. "Hipster Misogyny"</blockquote>

Actually, just go read that whole piece. It's fantastic, and it really deconstructs just what's wrong with this in-group-I'm-above-this thinking. When you're done with that, here's another:

<blockquote><i>Another key problem with hipster sexism is that it suggests true misogyny is dead. Hipsterism is, after all, the practice of dredging up the past, the deeply non-ironic, and repurposing it for novel fun.

But sexism never went anywhere in the first place, and there's nothing novel or subversive in using naked women to decorate music videos. If anything, it's subversive not to. As Naomi Wolf once said: "to live in a culture in which women are routinely naked where men aren't is to learn inequality in little ways all day long."</i> --Rebecca Kamm. "The Problem with Hipster Sexism"</blockquote>

And hipster ableism is also a known entity:

<blockquote><i>For starters, it’s primarily used in safe spaces, among other hipsters, which would seem to suggest that it’s actually a form of in-group humour. In fact, it’s a way for people to continue internalizing and believing in -isms, using their humour as a defensive wall. “Oh, I don’t really believe it, that’s why it’s funny,” they say, but if that’s the case, then why don’t they use this humour outside hipster circles? If it’s funny to make jokes about people with disabilities, for example, why don’t hipsters make those jokes around people with disabilities?</i> --s. e. smith. "Hipster Ableism"</blockquote>

So, nice try, Stacy, but next time try not to use a justification that has been dissected to death and has a whole lexicon developed around how intellectually immature it is. It won't get you very far.

And Chris, your sloppy thinking, pathetic excuses, and absurd projection about this issue actually is resembling David Barton in kind if not in degree. It's kind of funny that you can recognize such poor reasoning in others but fall into exactly that trap when you don't want to examine your behavior too closely.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

6:07 PM (12 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12075
Author: Paul Loebe
Comment:
This boils down to: Your Sense Of Humor Sucks!

As Emperor Palpatine once said (he didn't really)

"Good! Good! Let the butthurt flow through you."
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

6:13 PM (12 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12076
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
Paul, we've already been over how "you just don't have a sense of humor" is so commonly used to try to silence people challenging harmful social norms, that it is becoming seriously ineffective as a silencing strategy. We're all well-versed in these kind of defenses, and you're just looking like a pathetic amateur who's in WAAAAY over his head when you think that "Your Sense Of Humor Sucks!" is going to give anyone pause with this crowd.

Try to keep up.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

6:55 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12077
Author: Stacy
Comment:
<blockquote>but next time try not to use a justification that has been dissected to death</blockquote>

Nice try, LSP, but <i>you</i> ignored the first part of my comment.

I was not defending "hipster" humor. I would in fact share this joke with a blind person in a nanosecond. What "harmful social norm" is it perpetuating, exactly? The one where we all think blind people mistake dogs for cats, or the one where we all think blindness is hilarious?

(For the record, I'm disabled, myself. Admittedly, mine is one of those "invisible" disabilities. But I have no problem with jokes about mental illness when I know that the joke isn't coming from a place of cruelty.)

I think this particular joke is funny and harmless. Looks like we disagree, but you don't have to be condescending about it.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:03 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12078
Author: Chris Rodda
Comment:
Well, I guess it's OK with you guys that Helen Keller was a racist, right? She even named one of her dogs "Darkie," but that was a term of endearment for black people back then, of course. I'm sure that's all she meant by it. And her descriptions of those little negro children she played with and her little black servant boy certainly weren't meant in a negative way at all. Why, the way she liked to rub the little black servant boy's wooly little head was just adorable! Now, I'm sure she would have said she wasn't a racist and all. Of course, some of the commenters here wouldn't have believed her because, you know, if you say you're not something it just proves that you really are.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:11 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12079
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
Yes, you were defending hipster humor. The "no one really thinks that so it's okay to joke" is the sine qua non of hipster *ism, as I've shown.

And, yes, people really do think persons with disabilities are hopelessly enfeebled and can't navigate their lives or manage basic levels of independence, and someone has already shared their experiences with you to that effect. Moreover, people regularly think of those with disabilities are less-than, and this can be expressed in pity, disgust, hilarity, or all three depending on the circumstance.

And the fact that you tolerate jokes about a group to which you belong does not mean that they do not in fact reinforce harmful social norms, entrench cognitive biases that disadvantage the disabled, and alienate others. Lots of women have internalized the values behind sexist jokes and have no problems with it. Lots of marginalized persons in many different groups find that getting along with and being "chill" with those who will only let them in the club conditionally is a useful survival strategy, whether they do it consciously or unconsciously.

See, we've been talking about how microaggressions have measurable effects on society at large--in terms of policy, educational attainment, lived experiences, etc. We've discussed systemic discrimination, stereotype threat, cognitive biases in evaluating and shortchanging members of out-groups, and the documented effect of prejudiced jokes and language on how people respond to issues affecting those who are the butt of such jokes. For you to just swan in and declare you just think it's harmless, we'll that meager level of thinking is going to get you a hell of a lot of condescension, because your beliefs about sociology are not backed up by data, and you don't even seem to be aware of that fact.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:27 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12080
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
Chris, why the fuck are you saying "<b>A racist</b>"?!?!?! Did you seriously not get BOTH the times I've already told you that this phrase is a massive marker of ignorance?! Did you actually read the Crommunist sources I recommended?  You might as well put a great big bright pink 42-point flashing Comic Sans header on your post that says

"I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK I'M TALKING ABOUT AND I CAN'T BE ARSED TO LEARN THE FIRST THING ABOUT IT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU POINT ME TO THE CLUE RENTAL STORE."

And Helen Keller lived from 1880-1968. I would be DUMBFOUNDED if she did *not* espouse any racist attitudes (notice how I didn't say "a racist," because for the vast majority of people short of David Duke, that's not really a useful term), even if she was a perfectly nice, well-meaning person. Intent is not magic, after all. Really overt racist attitudes were the NORM back then (and less overtly racist attitudes are still normative now), so it would be downright implausible to presume a white lady of that era would not behave in ways that today we can clearly identify as informed by racist beliefs. Elizabeth Cady Stanton said some incredibly racist shit. Martin Luther King could be remarkably sexist. Margaret Sanger had her fair share of ableism and classism. People aren't gods, they aren't "pure," and it's not useful to try to divide into "-ist" vs. "not -ist." We all exist within a prejudiced culture and oppressive systems. That affects our thinking and we're responsible for it, even if we are trying to be good people. The obvious corollary to that is that good people we admire were still often affected by the prejudices of their day. Again, it's 2013, Chris. I can't BELIEVE you are making such a facile and ignorant argument, especially when you share a blog network with brilliant people who have shredded this nonsense hundreds of times over.

Fuckin' sociology and history man, how does it work?!?!?

You are doing the equivalent of "then why are there still monkeys?" and I'm literally cringing at your willful ignorance.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:28 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12081
Author: Chris Rodda
Comment:
Has the term "hipster" taken on some new meaning that I don't know about? I can't figure out what on earth hipsters have to do with any of this, but maybe it means something else now that I don't know about since I really don't keep up with these things, not being a hipster and all.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:31 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12082
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
I suppose actually googling and reading the fucking articles I cited is just too much work for you?!
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:33 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12083
Author: Stacy
Comment:
LSP, see this is what I meant. I haven't declared my "beliefs about sociology." I understand "systemic discrimination, stereotype threat, cognitive biases in evaluating and shortchanging members of out-groups," and problems of prejudiced jokes and language.

I declared my opinion about One.Particular.Joke.

In the realm of humor, there really is room for differences of opinion. There's a continuum: "jokes" that are clearly othering and derisive of marginalized people, jokes that everyone can agree are harmless, and, in the middle, jokes like this one, where how we respond to the joke is going to depend on context.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about it.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:36 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12084
Author: Stella
Comment:
Chris,

Why are you so proud of yourself for making my life more difficult?

Where are the alt text descriptions of the images you post?

Stella
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:42 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12085
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
<blockquote>In the realm of humor, there really is room for differences of opinion.</blockquote>

About a "joke" whose ONLY purpose is to say, "Haha, that lady's blind and deaf!"?!  Seriously?? Please, elucidate for us, in somewhat more detail than "I think it's funny and harmless" how this is not a classic case of demeaning people through prejudiced jokes? You're also failing to account for the role of normalization in people's responses to what's harmless (LOTS of people thing spanking children is harmless, despite the near-unanimous consensus of child development researchers--just the fact that something is so common and unquestioned doesn't validate the opinion that it's harmless).

And saying you think the joke is harmless is expressing a belief about sociology. And it is at odds with the vast majority of research in this topic.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:43 PM (11 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12086
Author: Stella
Comment:
LeftSidePositive,

Thank you for your attempts to educate.

Stella
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:54 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12087
Author: PatrickG
Comment:
On a random note, can we perhaps leave the deep philosophical questions about humor aside and address the actually blind and/or deaf people in this thread who have expressed that this particular joke hurt them?

Specifically, I refer to Stella and cswella. You can scroll up to read their comments. All this blather about not conforming to "PC-standards" and such... I mean, really, you've got people here -- people with a very relevant point of view -- pointing out how jokes like these impact them. <b>Completely ignored</b>.

@ Chris Rodda: As someone who <i>does</i> find the joke funny (albeit in a guilty way), I'm not sure why you're focusing on only portions of comments.  Do the actually blind and deaf not merit consideration here, in the context of this joke? If someone engages in polemic rhetoric, does that invalidate responding to the rest of their comment when it's directly on topic?

Additionally, are you really arguing that because Helen Keller held racist beliefs, it's therefore ok to make fun of her on the basis of her disabilities? It's hard to read you otherwise. If she hadn't been racist, would making fun of her be ok? Or do you seriously think that people here condone racism as long as it comes from disabled people?

I'll continue to enjoy your work, particularly your deft demolition work on Barton, but I'm really startled that you'd advance that argument.

@ Paul:  I get that you find Helen Keller funny.  However, I don't understand why you claim to celebrate her as an activist while taking such joy in making fun of her.  Seems contradictory to me, and if it had been solely in the context of this thread, I might just wave it off as internet crap.

But taking this thread to DJ Groethe's Facebook page on another subject was slightly eyebrow-raising.  Carry a grudge much? That's the most facile interpretation I can put on your behavior; I don't need to know your history with people here to recognize the size of the chip on your shoulder.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

7:58 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12088
Author: Stacy
Comment:
<blockquote>About a “joke” whose ONLY purpose is to say, “Haha, that lady’s blind and deaf!”?</blockquote>

Hmm. I saw a joke whose subject was a lovely woman, universally admired (as long as the fact that she was a socialist doesn't get mentioned,) embracing a beloved pet (underlined by use of the word, "beloved,") with the punchline that Ms. Keller--being blind--has mistaken the dog for a cat.

As I said earlier, my response was mixed up with empathy. I identified with Helen Keller in the picture. I thought the mistaken identity was funny. I simply didn't read it as derisive.

I can see it being taken that way, but I don't think that's the only way to take it.

I'm going to think about it some more.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:03 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12089
Author: Stacy
Comment:
PatrickG, you're right, I overlooked Stella and scwella's comments. Thanks for pointing that out.

<blockquote>But taking this thread to DJ Groethe’s Facebook page on another subject was slightly eyebrow-raising.</blockquote>

Oh jebus. What an ass.

LeftSidePositive, I'm sorry you've been dismissed so much in this thread, and I'm sorry that I contributed to that. I'm not sure I agree with you about everything, but I appreciate what you're trying to do.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:09 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12090
Author: Stella
Comment:
<blockquote>I’m going to think about it some more.</blockquote>

You go right ahead and ponder at your leisure. I'll be out here living the real-world results of your degrading humor.

Stella
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:24 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12091
Author: Chris Rodda
Comment:
Really, Stella? You think I'm trying to make your life more difficult by not putting alt text descriptions of my Sunday Funnies? You don't know anything about the things I do. You don't know about all the time I spent typing text transcriptions of a video series I did because someone told me that deaf people would appreciate that. And you don't know that I made sure that text-to-speech was enabled on the Kindle versions of my books so that blind or visually impaired people can listen to them. So, screw you!
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:42 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12092
Author: LeftSidePositive
Comment:
Hasn't alt-text for images been a pretty standard part of web accessibility for, like, EVER?

I've always been fascinated by the mindset that doing the right thing in a few instances apparently buys you off from actually having to do the right thing consistently... silly me, I didn't think decent people just shrugged off after they'd filled their (self-assessed and inherently subjective) "decent person point bank."

And lashing out at people for expecting accessibility is pretty much text book ableism, so while clearly you are convinced that the part of your brain that laughs at disability-related humor is totally separate from the real you and your actions and values...the evidence is indicating otherwise.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:45 PM (10 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12093
Author: Stella
Comment:
Thank you for doing those things.  Shame on me for mentioning that what you neglect is basic web accessibility.

Screw me for objecting to your making my life more difficult by contributing to the stereotypes of blind people that I have to deal with in real life. I should be ashamed of myself.

Nope, there's nothing ableist here.

Stella
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

8:58 PM (9 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12094
Author: Stella
Comment:
LeftSidePositive,

You read and post a kot faster than I can

I could just repost your entire post.

That is the attitude of most of the people I have to deal with all the time. Equal access, especially to information, suddenly becomes "special treatment". I should be properly humble and eternally grateful.

Thanks for having my back.
This Week in Christian Nationalism <liarsforjesus@aol.com>

9:01 PM (9 hours ago)

to me
There is a new comment to Sunday Funnies.
Comment Link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/#comment-12095
Author: Stella
Comment:
And yes, alt text was part of WWW standards from very early on, if not from the beginning. At least since the early 90s when I designed sites.

Stella
Permalink: http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2013/11/03/sunday-funnies-83/