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  1. 22:44 <AshleyWaffle> Hi
  2. 22:44 <AshleyWaffle> What do you think of laissez-faire capitlaism?
  3. 22:44 <Amazing_Tiff> it seems alright
  4. 22:44 <Amazing_Tiff> you were very informative
  5. 22:44 <AshleyWaffle> I have a tip for you
  6. 22:44 <Amazing_Tiff> yes?
  7. 22:44 <AshleyWaffle> Never believe anything just because your friends say it.
  8. 22:44 <AshleyWaffle> Only believe evidence - objective facts
  9. 22:45 <Amazing_Tiff> i try really hard to live by that
  10. 22:45 <AshleyWaffle> Me too - nobody's perfect at it
  11. 22:45 <AshleyWaffle> We've been told otherwise by years of statism, I think
  12. 22:46 <Amazing_Tiff> im actually not sure what ive been told for years
  13. 22:46 <AshleyWaffle> Let's go over it
  14. 22:46 <Amazing_Tiff> im still "religous" all though id call myself a skeptical believer
  15. 22:46 <Amazing_Tiff> but i know for sure im not an anti-theist
  16. 22:46 <AshleyWaffle> Let's start with the fundamental cores for Objectivism, shall we?
  17. 22:47 <Amazing_Tiff> which seems to be a majority of the channel
  18. 22:47 <AshleyWaffle> First: A is A - a chair is a chair at a given point in time
  19. 22:47 <AshleyWaffle> It's independent of your wishes, hopes, dreams, knowledge
  20. 22:47 <AshleyWaffle> Even faith
  21. 22:47 <Amazing_Tiff> ok
  22. 22:47 <AshleyWaffle> Also, existence does exist
  23. 22:47 <AshleyWaffle> It's self-evident
  24. 22:48 <AshleyWaffle> You can't argue that existence doesn't exist because something has to exist to claim that
  25. 22:48 <AshleyWaffle> Right?
  26. 22:48 <AshleyWaffle> The most fundamental fallacy of transgender people is they forget this:
  27. 22:48 <AshleyWaffle> "Reality to be commanded, must be obeyed"
  28. 22:49 <AshleyWaffle> You have to accept that at birth, genetically, you were born male before you can start changing that
  29. 22:49 <Amazing_Tiff> hhmmm
  30. 22:49 <AshleyWaffle> Otherwise, you don't have a starting point!
  31.  
  32. 22:49 <AshleyWaffle> Become female from /what/?
  33. 22:49 <Amazing_Tiff> i see i see
  34. 22:50 <AshleyWaffle> Okay, so I think we've covered metaphysics and ephistemology
  35. 22:50 <Amazing_Tiff> hahahaa
  36. 22:50 <AshleyWaffle> Laissez-faire capitalism comes from Objectivist ethics
  37. 22:50 <Amazing_Tiff> thanks for the explaination
  38. 22:50 <AshleyWaffle> You don't know the ethics yet
  39. 22:50 <AshleyWaffle> Is it not true that if you shared everything you had & recieved, you would die?
  40. 22:51 <AshleyWaffle> What would you eat? The poor have it all!
  41. 22:51 <Amazing_Tiff> hmmm
  42. 22:52 <AshleyWaffle> Then you're dead and you can't help any more people
  43. 22:52 <AshleyWaffle> That's called self-sacrifice
  44. 22:52 <AshleyWaffle> And it's evil because it destroys human life for one
  45. 22:52 <AshleyWaffle> At least its quality
  46. 22:53 <AshleyWaffle> It's no different than the aztecs throwing eachother into their deaths
  47. 22:53 <AshleyWaffle> What if nobody had to sacrifice anything?
  48. 22:53 <AshleyWaffle> What if everyone got to focus on their own lives, and help others for the purpose of emotional profit - the joy of seeing someone happy that you helped
  49. 22:53 <Amazing_Tiff> in sucha  short time youve given me a lot to think about
  50. 22:53 <AshleyWaffle> I know
  51. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> Greed is good because it is the art of living.
  52. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> The art of sustaining yourself.
  53. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> Of improving your conditions
  54. 22:54 <Amazing_Tiff> hhhhhmm
  55. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> And, secondarily, of improving the rest of humanity by trading your stuff (eg. bread) for their value
  56. 22:54 <Amazing_Tiff> well when you put it that way
  57. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> People often use the argument against capitalism "what about the poor people who have $0!?"
  58. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> They have one thing of value: The joy you get from giving a bum $5
  59. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> _that_ will get them far enough to survive and prosper in capitalism
  60. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> Do you understand?
  61. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> ##transgender evaded my question
  62. 22:56 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah i followed everything you;ve said so far
  63. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> I asked of morality, not of practicality
  64. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> The ends do not justify the means
  65. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> Just because social democracy works *great* for society does not make it right
  66. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah that makes sense
  67. 22:57 <AshleyWaffle> And we already explained that the ethics behind social democracy (self-sacrifice) don't work, right?
  68. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah you have
  69. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> i just absorbed
  70. 22:58 <AshleyWaffle> And if self-sacrifice doesn't work for Steve or Joe, why should it work for society as a whole, which is only the sum of its parts (individuals)
  71. 22:58 <AshleyWaffle> But another thing to consider
  72. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> Is that there's another form of sacrifice: if we sacrifice someone else
  73. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> The art of sustaining yourself.
  74. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> Of improving your conditions
  75. 22:54 <Amazing_Tiff> hhhhhmm
  76. 22:54 <AshleyWaffle> And, secondarily, of improving the rest of humanity by trading your stuff (eg. bread) for their value
  77. 22:54 <Amazing_Tiff> well when you put it that way
  78. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> People often use the argument against capitalism "what about the poor people who have $0!?"
  79. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> They have one thing of value: The joy you get from giving a bum $5
  80. 22:55 <AshleyWaffle> _that_ will get them far enough to survive and prosper in capitalism
  81. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> Do you understand?
  82. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> ##transgender evaded my question
  83. 22:56 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah i followed everything you;ve said so far
  84. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> I asked of morality, not of practicality
  85. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> The ends do not justify the means
  86. 22:56 <AshleyWaffle> Just because social democracy works *great* for society does not make it right
  87. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah that makes sense
  88. 22:57 <AshleyWaffle> And we already explained that the ethics behind social democracy (self-sacrifice) don't work, right?
  89. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah you have
  90. 22:57 <Amazing_Tiff> i just absorbed
  91. 22:58 <AshleyWaffle> And if self-sacrifice doesn't work for Steve or Joe, why should it work for society as a whole, which is only the sum of its parts (individuals)
  92. 22:58 <AshleyWaffle> But another thing to consider
  93. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> Is that there's another form of sacrifice: if we sacrifice someone else
  94. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> It's different from giving someone all your money - it's making someone else do it
  95. 22:59 <Amazing_Tiff> hhmm
  96. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> It's bad no matter how much money someone has
  97. 22:59 <Amazing_Tiff> against the other peron's will?
  98. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> Yes
  99. 22:59 <AshleyWaffle> Objectivists follow _rational_ egoism
  100. 23:00 <AshleyWaffle> The idea that being selfish is rational, but not necessarily the only ethical way
  101. 23:00 <AshleyWaffle> So if I give you half my money, that's not evil
  102. 23:00 <AshleyWaffle> But you force me to, it is
  103. 23:00 <AshleyWaffle> I honestly wonder how people like you ever were socialists
  104. 23:01 <AshleyWaffle> How did it even make it into your logical mind?
  105. 23:01 <AshleyWaffle> What evil told you it's good to give things to it - for nothing?
  106. 23:01 <AshleyWaffle> I can understand people like netcrusher falling for it
  107. 23:01 <Amazing_Tiff> well idk
  108. 23:01 <AshleyWaffle> Because they base their decisions on emotions soley
  109. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> Emotions are good
  110. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> But they're automatic responses to certain concepts being triggered in your mind
  111. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> Do you understand what that means/
  112. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> ?*
  113. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> It means that you don't think it, you just feel it
  114. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> It means that you don't think it, you just feel it
  115. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> Like you would feel a snake bite
  116. 23:02 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah i get that part
  117. 23:02 <AshleyWaffle> That's how netcrusher and the other's think
  118. 23:03 <AshleyWaffle> Capitalists are like snake bites, not disagreeing humans
  119. 23:03 <Amazing_Tiff> well idk. a commune sounds like a good idea from the start
  120. 23:03 <AshleyWaffle> They think of us as nails or some inanimate irritating object
  121. 23:03 <Amazing_Tiff> but implementing such a system
  122. 23:03 <Amazing_Tiff> im not exactly sure how that would work, which is where the idea breaks down
  123. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> It doesn't work because it's against Human Nature
  124. 23:04 <Amazing_Tiff> hell, even ask prodd. its not working out too well now
  125. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> I don't want to ask proddette
  126. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> I have a 6th sense for debating
  127. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> All Objectivists do
  128. 23:04 <Amazing_Tiff> well she'll tell you weather or not you ask
  129. 23:04 <Amazing_Tiff> :p
  130. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> Namely: Someone who is showing emotion during a debate - especially a passionate one
  131. 23:04 <AshleyWaffle> Is not going to listen to you
  132. 23:05 <AshleyWaffle> Read Atlas Shrugged or listen to the audio book
  133. 23:05 <AshleyWaffle> When you have 30-40 hours of free time
  134. 23:05 <Amazing_Tiff> hahaha
  135. 23:05 <AshleyWaffle> I'm on page 474 and look what I know!
  136. 23:05 <Amazing_Tiff> cant i jsut watch the movie :p
  137. 23:05 <Amazing_Tiff> just*
  138. 23:05 <Amazing_Tiff> that was a joke btw
  139. 23:05 <AshleyWaffle> I haven't even _finished_ and I know all this
  140. 23:05 <AshleyWaffle> Watch it, but part 2 doesn't come out til fall
  141. 23:06 <AshleyWaffle> You miss a lot of it in the movie versus reading
  142. 23:06 <AshleyWaffle> I've seen it - just tonight
  143. 23:06 <Amazing_Tiff> everything comes out in fall!
  144. 23:06 <Amazing_Tiff> >:(
  145. 23:06 <AshleyWaffle> Yeah >:(
  146. 23:06 <Amazing_Tiff> no i know, whihc is why id rather read the book instead
  147. 23:06 <AshleyWaffle> May I give this chat log to my friend?
  148. 23:06 <AshleyWaffle> I want him to see how I debated
  149. 23:07 <AshleyWaffle> It's more like truth-seeking than debate
  150. 23:07 <AshleyWaffle> Debate is like a peaceful argument
  151. 23:07 <AshleyWaffle> Truth-seeking is two parties analyzing all the evidence to conlcude things
  152. 23:07 <Amazing_Tiff> yeah no problem
  153. 23:07 <AshleyWaffle> Thanks tiff
  154. 23:07 <Amazing_Tiff> np
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