API tools faq
paste
Guest User

Untitled

a guest
Sep 19th, 2016
278
0
Never
Add comment
Not a member of Pastebin yet? Sign Up, it unlocks many cool features!
text 178.94 KB | None | 0 0
raw download clone embed print report
  1. [2:11:33 PM] *** Forward Arrow added MasterWarlord, trolltwilightsparkle ***
  2. [2:11:41 PM] *** Forward Arrow has renamed this conversation to "ALC Room" ***
  3. [2:11:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "More importantly, I do not even need to waste a slot on Lizard. Funny Valentine enables me to create a duplicate of myself, so I can copy the Up Special off of that Lizard to speed it up." Isn't this banned? The contest rules said no making duplicates to copy moves/add moveset slots.
  4. [2:12:30 PM] Forward Arrow: I don't think that's explicitly what I said
  5. [2:12:49 PM] MasterWarlord: control + f duplicate not found
  6. [2:12:50 PM] Forward Arrow: What I banned was movesets within movesets. Using duplicates to get Lizard's own moves isn't something I considered to be cheating.
  7. [2:12:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Aaaaah, okay.
  8. [2:13:15 PM] MasterWarlord: So what Gangreen utilt is it
  9. [2:13:25 PM] Forward Arrow: honestly I never considered it as an option as I didn't even know who would want Lizard's own moves but it leads to the best mobility in the entire thing, for all that's worth
  10. [2:13:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The belch that forces people to move.
  11. [2:13:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So I can ban the move.
  12. [2:13:45 PM] MasterWarlord: Okay it's not the grouped up one that we had basically decided didn't work.
  13. [2:13:59 PM] MasterWarlord: But yes
  14. [2:14:21 PM] MasterWarlord: You plan to use time travel after you die with respawn invincibility was assumption ever since you talked about it right?
  15. [2:14:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: " Any moves that generically target "the foe" with infinite range or whatever, such as those seen in Beeheyem, will hit the duplicates instead of me if they are closer to them." NOPE.
  16. [2:14:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Beeheyem works on any foe.
  17. [2:14:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I would ban all the Lizard's inputs.
  18. [2:14:48 PM] MasterWarlord: "the foe" =/= all foes
  19. [2:14:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "if any foe does anything during this time (except for standing idle) they'll lose the action for the rest of their stock. "
  20. [2:15:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "if any foe does anything during this time (except for standing idle) they'll lose the action for the rest of their stock. "
  21. [2:15:15 PM] MasterWarlord: Fine, I will accept it
  22. [2:15:20 PM] MasterWarlord: That move is terrible because it's slow
  23. [2:15:33 PM] *** Forward Arrow added MunomARRio777 ***
  24. [2:15:51 PM] MunomARRio777: ohai
  25. [2:16:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not necessarily, you can use it without needing to charge it up if you are very precise.
  26. [2:16:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And the lag on the move is not mentioned but it has 5x Lizard speed buff.
  27. [2:16:13 PM] *** Forward Arrow added Smashurai Daddiro ***
  28. [2:16:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You plan to use time travel after you die with respawn invincibility was assumption ever since you talked about it right?No.
  29. [2:16:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: When Young Xehanort's Down Special is triggered, it causes him to go back in time, and I can choose any point frame-by-frame to stop at while going back in time.
  30. [2:17:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I then simply choose the frame the opponent used the move I want to ban on (or account for lag which shouldn't be necessary due to 5x speed buff) and ban it.
  31. [2:17:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I can also use Back Aerial to do this without the counter part.
  32. [2:17:44 PM] MasterWarlord: You are arguing that it goes up proportionately every frame instead of every 5 seconds. Move says every 5 seconds.
  33. [2:18:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I was actually just arguing you could activate it for like 1 frame without charging it.
  34. [2:18:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Tho if you prefer, just pretend I use the Slowbro F-Tilt to stun + ban.
  35. [2:18:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And then wait.
  36. [2:18:29 PM] MasterWarlord: 1.6 something seconds is very long
  37. [2:18:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As I can ban your entire moveset by banning NSpec with Slowbro Forward Tilt for 12 seconds, which is also enough for Young Xehanort DSpec to come up again, and then just use NSpec.
  38. [2:20:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, if it can be observed by Lizard, it can be banned, so either Uka Uka's grab cannot be observed or cannot be banned. This is because Lizard and Beeheyem both use the same method to check for something basically.
  39. [2:20:33 PM] Forward Arrow: If you don't mind, I'm going to go out to grab dinner and when I get back, if US hasn't submitted his entry here I'm just gonna copypaste what he has.
  40. [2:21:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "Not only do these 3 minions provide no lag to me, I can use them during hitstun." That's not how it works in Atlantis, is it?
  41. [2:21:50 PM] MasterWarlord: Yes it is
  42. [2:21:54 PM] MunomARRio777: "Keep in mind we still have access to the broken Lizard Up Special (albeit without speed X5) as recovery, so it is not needed to go out of our way to get the best recovery in the game and our Up Special slot can largely be used for offense."
  43.  
  44. chooses the best recovery in the game
  45. [2:22:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: you should probably edit that out after the challenge >>
  46. [2:22:51 PM] Forward Arrow: The way I ruled it mentally was yes you can ban Uka Uka grab, but it is a static thing that can exist outside of observation pose, which makes it a bit more resilient vs input bans.
  47. [2:22:54 PM] Forward Arrow: It is such a fucking weird thing though
  48. [2:23:12 PM] Forward Arrow: I wasn't expecting someone to come to me with a static hitbox in place of an input lol
  49. [2:23:12 PM] MasterWarlord: The logic is input ban makes inputting the move not respond
  50. [2:23:17 PM] MasterWarlord: you don't press a move
  51. [2:23:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But Beeheyem's input just flatout bans everything, including things like moving, so I'd assume it does more than that?
  52. [2:23:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It is passive
  53. [2:23:47 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: FA probably needs to say
  54. [2:23:52 PM] MunomARRio777: "input ban" = "banning" an "input"
  55. [2:23:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But then how does Lizard observe it?
  56. [2:23:58 PM] MunomARRio777: if a move is a static hitbox, it has no input
  57. [2:24:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: FA did say it was observed
  58. [2:24:38 PM] MasterWarlord: Lizard just generically has to see it being done
  59. [2:24:41 PM] Forward Arrow: Presumably, I would imagine if Uka Uka latches onto someone's face
  60. [2:24:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, I'm questioning how it works that it can be observed but not banned by Beeheyem.
  61. [2:24:43 PM] MasterWarlord: different rules from input banning
  62. [2:24:53 PM] Forward Arrow: And Lizard then gains it for himself
  63. [2:24:55 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well he can see it happen, it just has no input
  64. [2:24:57 PM] Forward Arrow: if he's observing it
  65. [2:25:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It just has to happen, it doesn't have an input
  66. [2:25:15 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's obviously very picky but that's what FA is saying
  67. [2:25:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hmm.
  68. [2:25:20 PM] MunomARRio777: this is the most MYM thing ever
  69. [2:25:50 PM] *** Forward Arrow added UserShadow7989 (Hawke) ***
  70. [2:25:56 PM] Forward Arrow: You already missed some debating man but hey
  71. [2:26:00 PM] Forward Arrow: Good to have everyone finally
  72. [2:26:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hiya
  73. [2:26:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, how does this moveset deal with just Down Tilting/Up Tilting/any other stalling?
  74. [2:26:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: *Up Smash
  75. [2:26:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since I can just Down Tilt/Up Smash the Lizard NSpec.
  76. [2:26:33 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I think I need a ruling on the thing I came up with last second
  77. [2:26:43 PM] Forward Arrow: okay lemme look at it
  78. [2:27:06 PM] MasterWarlord: I argue many times it pointing forth is probably the hitbox for how underdetailed the dtilt is
  79. [2:27:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the issue is A. it'd take near frame-perfect timing to work even if it does, and B. we're not given a hard time value on how long this or that lasts
  80. [2:27:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, but you're going to have time to setup Neutrality anyway with your setup.
  81. [2:27:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: *not going
  82. [2:27:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I mean, if mine works, I basically win without anyone getting to do anything or only having a split second to act
  83. [2:28:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though I'm pretty sure that's wishful thinking
  84. [2:28:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also yes, if US thing works I think it still beats mine.
  85. [2:28:27 PM] MasterWarlord: I am absolutely faster than 10 frames for neutrality. The actual most important part of the argument is I claim I am faster than something that says "a bit of lag"
  86. [2:29:10 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Beeheyem section in Warlord's is some hilarity right there
  87. [2:29:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But are you faster than Down Tilt 5x Speed, Strangelove Up Smash 5x Speed, Slowbro F-Tilt 5x speed and Beeheyem FAir 5x speed?
  88. [2:29:43 PM] Forward Arrow: You guys have 20 minutes before I start passing Judgement on some things. It might be a little longer than that. But once that happens I'll try and direct this debate around a bit.
  89. [2:29:50 PM] Forward Arrow: I've been kinda irresponsible about managing this sorry
  90. [2:29:56 PM] Forward Arrow: and I'm not really seeing why US' wouldn't work
  91. [2:30:03 PM] MasterWarlord: "The long and short of it is simply that Beeheyem is incredibly slow for the standards of this challenge. Almost none of the moves have a fast description, with Froy assuming that the speed buffs from Lizard will be anywhere near enough when you can speed buff moves that are actually fast to make them instant or just use literally instant moves. "
  92. [2:30:05 PM] Forward Arrow: frame perfect timing is a thing a lot of these sets need to achieve their peak power
  93. [2:30:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well, I think US just wins then.
  94. [2:30:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'm pretty sure I just lose to anyone if that doesn't work, but if it does I think that tidies it up for me
  95. [2:30:24 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The 3x speed is not that great in a competition with lagless moves
  96. [2:30:24 PM] Forward Arrow: I'd need to look at the actual moves, will do when I get back
  97. [2:30:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As US can literally just instantly create a game winning time loop with 0 interaction.
  98. [2:30:47 PM] Forward Arrow: You guys may not want to argue with it in mind right now
  99. [2:31:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "The long and short of it is simply that Beeheyem is incredibly slow for the standards of this challenge. Almost none of the moves have a fast description, with Froy assuming that the speed buffs from Lizard will be anywhere near enough when you can speed buff moves that are actually fast to make them instant or just use literally instant moves. "Most of Beeheyem's moves have no listed lag and 3x boost gives more the laggier it is to start. For example if we assume Down Tilt is 12 frames of starting lag, which is around average for a D-Tilt IIRC, it goes down to 4 frames of starting lag.
  100. [2:31:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: A whole 1 more frame of lag than the Lung tilt you're talking about.
  101. [2:32:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As being "just about as fast as you can get without being lagless".
  102. [2:32:20 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Only thing I don't get about US's is why the honey pot is eaten x times as fast for every clone
  103. [2:32:25 PM] MasterWarlord: I am blatantly not using the lunge dtilt in this argument and I have literal lagless moves
  104. [2:32:26 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Which is obviously a big part of it
  105. [2:32:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And every "lagless" move technically has 1 frame of lag, for the game to register it.
  106. [2:32:50 PM] MasterWarlord: The Uka Uka grab because of being passive is also 0 frames.
  107. [2:32:55 PM] MasterWarlord: rather than 1
  108. [2:32:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Kang's Down Special and Up Special are the points of contention. FA's ruling on the latter is that the passive charge is sped up by speed boosts, so it gets 6 seconds of time stop for 8.33 seconds of match, which naturally can be cashed in early for a proportionately smaller time stop
  109. [2:33:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But you need to NSpec it.
  110. [2:33:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Because Lizard only uses these moves when hitting Neutral Special.
  111. [2:33:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Remember?
  112. [2:33:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Its not like TAC where you just have the moves added to your moveset.
  113. [2:33:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: They need to be accessed via Neutral Special.
  114. [2:33:48 PM] MasterWarlord: Passive. Regardless, the only lag involved here is lizard Up B at 4.5x Sonic's dashing speed
  115. [2:33:59 PM] MasterWarlord: Unless you are going to argue you are faster than 1 frame moves
  116. [2:34:11 PM] MasterWarlord: with generic unlisted speed
  117. [2:34:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Even if its passive I don't see how it works without NSpecing it, "This does nothing notable unless you press an input while in this pose that you observed the foe use. When you do so, Lizard will perform a magic based version of the stolen attack. "
  118. [2:34:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Down Special goes back in time depending on charge, minimum 10 seconds (so start of the match), leaving me with a past self that has friendly fire on for my Zubat shenanigans.
  119.  
  120. I can instantly reset the match, time stop, grab my clone as it's about to go back in time, make a crapton of clones of myself, make the clones real, and then honey for near-instant game.
  121. [2:35:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): As for the clones eating honey, honey only requires X amount eaten for game, and I can make my clones count as real in all regards for inputs
  122. [2:35:29 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I do love the visual of all these Lizard clones eating honey
  123. [2:35:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also where do you get where Up Special is 1 frame any more than me saying the lag on mine when Lizard USpec doesn't list lag? And I am going to guess that Lizard flying forward w/ USpec actually takes more than 1 frame to reach me, although it also dependso n stage and respawn.
  124. [2:35:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (New Pork City vs Flat Zone is a big difference for this thing)
  125. [2:36:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm. I myself enjoy knowing that the honey jar is probably bigger than Lizard itself, so I picture the results screen having a completely spherical Lizard rolling around
  126. [2:36:33 PM] MunomARRio777: heh
  127. [2:36:35 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Fat Lizard
  128. [2:36:38 PM] MasterWarlord: FA is the maker of Lizard and says that Lizard Up B was intended to be very very fast. And it has 3X speed.
  129. [2:36:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, you can't instantly kill me with mind control @ 0% I think, because it is 3x grab difficulty when I have 0%, which is essentially an instant escape.
  130. [2:37:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Pitfall I don't remember if it escapes faster or slower when at no peecentage, although I am also not sure if you can pitfall throw me when you're in the air?
  131. [2:37:28 PM] MunomARRio777: Kinda regretting not using the same nspec as I did my dspec.
  132. [2:37:34 PM] MunomARRio777: (on the subject of mind control)
  133. [2:38:09 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: What even is Pooh's dair?
  134. [2:38:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): eat honey faster
  135. [2:38:17 PM] MasterWarlord: I am disappointed Smady took Lunge without taking any of his good moves.
  136. [2:38:19 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: lol of course
  137. [2:38:29 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I looked at Lunge plenty
  138. [2:38:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The actual set I wished I had found with all of this is Illidan for the BAir since my BAir is basically a strong filler.
  139. [2:38:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): which is also his neutral a, but down aerial is even faster
  140. [2:38:47 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I have dtilt, I have a better fair
  141. [2:39:06 PM] MasterWarlord: Oh you do have grab and dtilt at least
  142. [2:39:13 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's really memetic how often it goes out of its way to say lagless
  143. [2:39:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Probably an actual question WL is
  144. [2:39:19 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Practically built for this challenge
  145. [2:39:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Is my FAir fast enough to hit you with no listed lag + 5x speed.
  146. [2:39:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "F-air has Beeheyem reach out with a hand; if it touches the enemy all their controls will be completely random for 10 seconds along with Beeheyem gaining 1 second of invincibility at that time. This is best used if the enemy tries to get close to Beeheyem or following up a F-tilt though it's better off not forced."
  147. [2:39:41 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: My fair is pretty much Lunge's fair but is a massive projectile
  148. [2:40:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (And yes Beeheyem is amazingly underdetailed just to make it so that we have no fucking clue how laggy anything is.)
  149. [2:40:26 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I looked at Beeheyem and thought it was pretty unusably laggy
  150. [2:40:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The only way it could be useful is assuming things not stated directly
  151. [2:40:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think you guys underestimate how fast it is when you reduce the lag to 1/3rd.
  152. [2:41:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Even with usual lag times like 10 frames or w/e it goes down to almost as fast as things like Lunge D-Tilt, when everything has a minimum lag of 1 frame for the game to register it.
  153. [2:41:09 PM] MasterWarlord: 1 attack wins game in this meta. Things that aren't speed don't matter.
  154. [2:41:15 PM] MasterWarlord: IDC if it's 3 frames faster, those 3 frames win game.
  155. [2:41:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't agree.
  156. [2:41:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You can't beat me that fast.
  157. [2:41:31 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I do really like the presentation Warlord went for in his post
  158. [2:41:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Never would've thought to use Granfaloon, that's pretty imaginative
  159. [2:41:56 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Did consider using DarkMega's up special
  160. [2:42:26 PM] MunomARRio777: froy, does your nspec block multiple inputs?
  161. [2:42:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes.
  162. [2:42:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It doesn't stop after doing one input.
  163. [2:42:58 PM | Edited 2:43:16 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I was going to do a Ginyu set for this where he has a time stop/way to force the body swap, then the foe has his useless set minus the body swap as it is banned once you switch
  164. [2:43:00 PM] MunomARRio777: does it interrupt the use of the move it observes?
  165. [2:43:15 PM] MunomARRio777: e.g. if it starts countering and I ftilt, is that ftilt interrupted, or does it keep going?
  166. [2:43:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Funny Valentine clone summoning is not instant, you don't have any instant wins to beat me aside from that. If I get any time at all to act I can either genericall Down Tilt/Up Smash forever, do say a 3 frame FAir, w/e. I can also just use the fast Xehanort DSpec.
  167. [2:43:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: e.g. if it starts countering and I ftilt, is that ftilt interrupted, or does it keep going?The move says it is a counter, I assume it does.
  168. [2:43:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Actual move does not say OFC.
  169. [2:43:51 PM] MunomARRio777: counters don't interrupt the attack though, aside from the actual counterattack
  170. [2:43:53 PM] MunomARRio777: good example is rest
  171. [2:44:00 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I'm a bit surprised Beeheyem is even legal given how confusing/vague it is
  172. [2:44:02 PM] MunomARRio777: if you counter rest, the invincibility frames mean that the counterattack misses
  173. [2:44:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: In this case the counter attack is stopping you from using it, tho.
  174. [2:44:09 PM] MunomARRio777: so jiggs is just sleeping
  175. [2:44:13 PM] MasterWarlord: Yes I definitely have looked at Shedinja. Shedinja does say lagless a few times but it also says shit takes forever. Shedinja Up B was so long I considered it worse than factory/horcrux.
  176.  
  177. If lagless Lunge fair collides with lagless Shedinja fair, I would be interrupted out of my lagless move that I can do again while Smady loses.
  178. [2:44:16 PM] MunomARRio777: [2:44 PM] Twilight Sparkle:
  179.  
  180. <<< In this case the counter attack is stopping you from using it, tho.only after the initial use, I'd assume
  181. [2:44:36 PM] MunomARRio777: if I ftilt during the counter window, it bans further uses of ftilt, but that use I just did carries on
  182. [2:44:38 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Lunge's fair has a range problem basically
  183. [2:44:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I was going to do a Ginyu set for this where he has a time stop/way to force the body swap, then the foe has his useless set minus the body swap as it is banned once you switchThis is a fun idea and reminds me of what I wanted to do.
  184. [2:44:48 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I can also use fair on the ground without jumping
  185. [2:45:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is that I was going to use Sarkhan Vol to instantly turn the foe into Charizard.
  186. [2:45:01 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The shedinja up special wouldn't be used if not for the neutral special obviously
  187. [2:45:10 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Then it's just broken
  188. [2:45:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: My 2v2 Lizard idea was also fun
  189. [2:45:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just use Frank Underwood's Pummel + Special to turn all other Lizards to my team and therefor win.
  190. [2:45:33 PM] MasterWarlord: I do not jump, I am using Lizard Up B to use aerials which is much faster than jumping and to ignore range issue. 4.5X Sonic's dashing speed is a 1 frame teleport.
  191. [2:45:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I would like to hear Jamie to know if 4.5x dash speed actually is a 1 frame teleport.
  192. [2:46:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Because I am not sure it is.
  193. [2:46:09 PM] MunomARRio777: hmm
  194. [2:46:15 PM] MasterWarlord: Well we do have Muno
  195. [2:46:22 PM] MunomARRio777: I'd have to do some research
  196. [2:46:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I generically say Jamie because he seems like the go-to for this, Muno works.
  197. [2:46:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: well I have lagless huge projectile to hit you immediately if you rush at me, it's better than the fair
  198. [2:46:48 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: which if I recall is close range
  199. [2:47:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I just don't get how WL doesn't get wrecked by a Strangelove Up Smash into whatever we use.
  200. [2:47:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Or other similiar things.
  201. [2:47:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: His seems slower than US to me and doesn't instantly win the match.
  202. [2:47:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the issue I'd have with 4.5x sonic speed is how do you not just go clean off the side of the stage with any sort of directional input at all
  203. [2:47:36 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: if you want to get technical, the input lag, assuming it's just a super computer, I press one button to your two with the up special + aerial to my fsmash
  204. [2:47:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Ignoring US' super fast thing)
  205. [2:48:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): like, even if we assume frame perfect control, that's something that seems impossible to actually aim properly since you'd be moving so fast within frames
  206. [2:48:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *so far within each frame
  207. [2:49:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Illidan is definitely the set I wish I had for the BAir. WL must use the Back Aerial to beat US which I feel is notable since thats not always feasible.
  208. [2:49:29 PM] MunomARRio777: how far does lizard uspec travel?
  209. [2:49:32 PM] MasterWarlord: I went on about Illidan bair for a reason yes. Killing foe is not viable if you don't ignore respawn invincibility.
  210. [2:49:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though to be fair we are basically assuming at this point that it's a literal machine doing everything rather than anything resembling human response time, since it'd be that tight
  211. [2:49:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: how far does lizard uspec travel?Free flight for 6 seconds
  212. [2:49:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No maximum travel distance.
  213. [2:50:05 PM] MunomARRio777: ...
  214. [2:50:15 PM] MasterWarlord: I don't need to land a move manually. I input Up B and direction foe is in, I just stop when I reach them with passive Uka Uka grab
  215. [2:50:24 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I still do not say it is passive.
  216. [2:50:24 PM] MunomARRio777: from what I can gather, Sonic's dash speed is approximately 1 FD / second
  217. [2:50:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lizard says you have to use NSpec to use moves.
  218. [2:50:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I only have killing moves (which are near worthless due to being hitbox-laden) because time you aren't even on the screen when respawning is time I can win the match if I was somehow not able to honey without you dying
  219. [2:50:46 PM] MasterWarlord: No button press.
  220. [2:50:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Then how does Lizard use it when his moveset says he must NSpec the input to use it?
  221. [2:51:11 PM] MunomARRio777: I imagine Uka's grab not being activated by default, but becoming active as soon as Lizard uses nspec.
  222. [2:51:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ^
  223. [2:51:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: What Muno said.
  224. [2:51:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I assume he enters the stance and auto-uses it the frame he enters- yeah
  225. [2:51:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I cannot possibly see how it makes sense for it to be active without having to at least NSpec it on first.
  226. [2:51:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is ofc extra time to do things.
  227. [2:51:41 PM] MunomARRio777: If Lizard has to use nspec to activate its copied moves, then a passive would appear as soon as nspec is input.
  228. [2:51:45 PM] MasterWarlord: It is a fringe case that a move copier would not remotely accommodate for. It is a lot different than just being generically underdetailed.
  229. [2:51:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It makes no sense with how Lizard is said to not have to NSpec it on, at least.
  230. [2:51:56 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm, true
  231. [2:52:24 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ""If all of that fails for some reason, in the case of Beeheyem's Neutral Special, it is pretty easy to just use a worthless regular Lizard move not in the Neutral Special list to avoid having Neutral Special banned. Beeheyem will be stuck in lag for half a second, so you can inevitably find something in Lizard's fast set a good deal faster to use for the purpose of blocking the move."" Beeheyem's NSpec doesn't end with just one move, Kat suggests using it + SSpec to ban muktiple moves.
  232. [2:52:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So you have to wait it out.
  233. [2:53:12 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The way I'd have to deal with US's respawn timer is the nspec which should be able to delete him even then as it's not a hitbox and deals no damage/knockback, just has to hit you to activate
  234. [2:53:15 PM] MunomARRio777: with TAS levels of perfection, that'd be possible tho @froy
  235. [2:53:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No, that's not what I mean.
  236. [2:53:33 PM] MunomARRio777: so I can just wait for you to use your input ban, wait it out, then frame-perfectly input my input ban
  237. [2:53:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The paragraph sugggests using a move, then doing stuff during the half second.
  238. [2:53:43 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: This doesn't work.
  239. [2:53:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I was actually thinking US' would be something using the honey
  240. [2:53:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Using it the very instant NSpec drops works.
  241. [2:54:00 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Kang was really the part that I missed, I had Zubat in mind but couldn't find the Kang part to make it work
  242. [2:54:07 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: So I went another direction
  243. [2:54:12 PM] MunomARRio777: speed buffs don't entirely eliminate lag, iirc
  244. [2:54:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, killing Beeheyem section does not mention the most important part of the matchup which is Beeheyem's Down Tilt.
  245. [2:54:25 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): you'd have to get into position to hit me before I go back in time or time stop, which are near instant and require no movement or positioning on my part whatsoever
  246. [2:54:38 PM] MunomARRio777: [Sunday, September 04, 2016 11:10 AM] Forward Arrow:
  247.  
  248. <<< Just one thing. You're losing a ratio of lag with this move. Its not like the Lizard speed upgrades drop a set amount of frames.
  249. [2:54:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: well I assume I face you from the start so I just throw a nspec
  250. [2:54:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): The former resets you, the latter prevents you from acting
  251. [2:54:52 PM] MunomARRio777: meaning that there's at least a one frame gap in between beeheyem's input bans
  252. [2:54:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I know?
  253. [2:55:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You're not understanding what I said.
  254. [2:55:03 PM] MunomARRio777: which is an opportunity to input my input ban
  255. [2:55:24 PM] MunomARRio777: unless you also have another input ban?
  256. [2:55:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is that you can't just do inputs during the NSpec without them being banned, even if you use an input first.
  257. [2:55:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is what WL's section suggested.
  258. [2:55:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: unless you also have another input ban?I have, like, four.
  259. [2:55:41 PM] MunomARRio777: ohlol
  260. [2:56:04 PM] MunomARRio777: Which is that you can't just do inputs during the NSpec without them being banned, even if you use an input first.I input observation stance as soon as beeheyem's counter ends
  261. [2:56:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I can also just use my Forward Tilt to ban Observation Stance.
  262. [2:56:17 PM] MunomARRio777: since I input it in the one frame gap before the next one starts, it is not banned by the second input ban
  263. [2:56:23 PM] MunomARRio777: mhm
  264. [2:56:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hm, requires you be on level with me and within range of the input
  265. [2:56:34 PM] Forward Arrow: okay so I'm back now
  266. [2:56:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it doesn't seem to specify hitbox size or range
  267. [2:56:38 PM] MunomARRio777: o/
  268. [2:56:46 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): wb
  269. [2:56:47 PM] Forward Arrow: Going to provide a bit of input based off what I saw earlier
  270. [2:57:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'd also argue that the time I'm gone is cut down by the speed boosts, possibly, but the 1 second I'd be gone would still be enough in that interpretation
  271. [2:58:07 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): plus if I do manage my Down Special, you're faced with a hostile version of yourself
  272. [2:58:14 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: if this challenge made me think anything it's that we need a new top 13 OP
  273. [2:58:21 PM] MunomARRio777: lol
  274. [2:58:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): who at the least is probably going to be an obstruction
  275. [2:58:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, Beeheyem's Forward Smash is actually useless in this challenge, not "one of its best moves".
  276. [2:58:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): absolutely re: new top 13
  277. [2:58:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also yes. I feel Beeheyem's base set is at least up there vs. other base sets given the absurdity.
  278. [2:58:58 PM] MunomARRio777: my gameplan is basically ban nspec, then fly in as a lizard riding a horse riding a motorcycle
  279. [2:59:01 PM] MunomARRio777: and do other stuff like that
  280. [2:59:06 PM] MunomARRio777: occasionally refreshing the ban
  281. [2:59:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so you basically have to kill me before I do my Down Special
  282. [2:59:12 PM] MasterWarlord: It is a very different metagame without retarded speed X548905890890%
  283. [2:59:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  284. [2:59:21 PM] Forward Arrow: 1. Warlord's Lizard was the one I thought was the strongest, for reason I'll get to when I get to Froy's. The 4.5x Sonic's dash speed movement it provides is absolutely ridiculous, and once he gets within reasonable range he can use his Fair to block off whatever he's worried about from the other set.
  285. [2:59:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I mostly just think my retarded speed is still fast enough to match WL's retarded speed.
  286. [2:59:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since we're basically assuming TAS.
  287. [2:59:53 PM] MasterWarlord: I still have not even had time to comprehend US's
  288. [3:00:00 PM] Forward Arrow: I assume it takes something like 4 frames for Warlord to approach and shut off the NSpecial of the opposing Lizard, and he has a million other ways to horribly murder people using Funny, Atlantis, and whatnot.
  289. [3:00:09 PM] MasterWarlord: Why are you traveling back in time when match starts
  290. [3:00:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): there's also the issue of control, even with frame perfect, because by that point you're moving a pretty huge distance between grames
  291. [3:00:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But all of those take time.
  292. [3:00:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Kang
  293. [3:00:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Way more time thabn me just Down Tilting or F-Tilting.
  294. [3:00:22 PM] MunomARRio777: WL, do any of your sets have move copying?
  295. [3:00:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so I can get a clone of myself with friendly fire on
  296. [3:01:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I time stop, before my clone disappears I grab into Zubat's pummel to flood the stage with illusionary lizards
  297. [3:01:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well if it's 4 frames and he comes right at me, I do have a massive 3 Mario height fsmash to hit him away, but eh. It might be good to just listen to what FA has to say for a bit.
  298. [3:01:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Kay.
  299. [3:01:39 PM] MasterWarlord: The Atlantis dsmash is also a very viable target for a frame 1 move for you to interrupt instead of anything relevant
  300. [3:01:41 PM] Forward Arrow: I feel Smady's has a rather terrifying win condition now of the 15 stock strategy, and given the Teferi clone? He might very well be able to make a loop that ends in him having as many stock as he could ever want. He also has the neutralization move which is huge, being lagless and putting the foe into a position he can probably land Chao's bullet to get the +15 stock mess rolling
  301. [3:01:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I then use Zubat to copy those fakes within a large area, make those copied fakes real, and then I instantly down a fuckton of honey because every one of them mimics me
  302. [3:02:07 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Neutralization?
  303. [3:02:12 PM] Forward Arrow: Unfortunately for Smady, his strategy runs into a couple issues against US' Lizard, mostly because the massive pool of stocks he will gain won't matter.
  304. [3:02:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): possibly before time stop even ends
  305. [3:02:16 PM] Forward Arrow: By that I mean the FAir/FSmash
  306. [3:02:20 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Ah right
  307. [3:02:35 PM] Forward Arrow: interrupt anything, bigger hitbox than what Warlord has for his equivalent option, lagless unlike Froy and Muno's options
  308. [3:02:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ah, that too- I go by the stock/time set at the start for how much honey I need to eat to win match
  309. [3:02:46 PM] Forward Arrow: It loses the ability to ban inputs.
  310. [3:03:05 PM] Forward Arrow: But frankly when you're sitting pretty on 15/Infinite Stocks, it doesn't matter quite as much.
  311. [3:03:27 PM] Forward Arrow: As honestly we're getting to the point even with frame perfect play it gets a bit hard to figure out exactly how these characters would react to each other.
  312. [3:03:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (And now I've finally finished Warlord's to read anyone else's)
  313. [3:03:39 PM] MunomARRio777: "Funny Valentine enables me to create a duplicate of myself, so I can copy the Up Special off of that Lizard to speed it up."
  314.  
  315. could've used lizard's ftilt, too
  316. [3:03:45 PM] MunomARRio777: unless that only copies observed moves?
  317. [3:03:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, man, I didn't make a swag image.
  318. [3:04:14 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:03 PM] Forward Arrow:
  319.  
  320. <<< As honestly we're getting to the point even with frame perfect play it gets a bit hard to figure out exactly how these characters would react to each other.the winner is mym and its lack of actual frame data
  321. [3:04:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Ooooh, Chao.
  322. [3:04:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I totally forgot that moveset.
  323. [3:05:01 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (I should note I only realized the optimal use of time stop at the last second, so the strategy notes are inaccurate beyond showing what I do and why- the note after all the other strategy talk is the relevant bit)
  324. [3:05:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That is a very good choice.
  325. [3:05:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: [3:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle:
  326.  
  327. <<< Also, man, I didn't make a swag image.http://i.imgur.com/wYEfhH3.png My swag is only justice
  328. [3:05:02 PM] Forward Arrow: Muno's Lizard is the one I'm convinced is by far the weakest. It may ever be able to ban out US' entry at the absolute weakest we assume it is, but it has to compete with stupidly fast input bans from other sets and you did confirm to me at one point that Omochao's ban is hardly lagless.
  329. [3:05:22 PM] MunomARRio777: I mean, not any less "lagless" than any other move would be
  330. [3:05:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and yeah, Chao is a fantastic pick
  331. [3:05:35 PM] MunomARRio777: but yeah, mine is obviously not on the level of the others lol
  332. [3:05:35 PM] Forward Arrow: I mean you told me it had lag before. Don't go back on that now
  333. [3:05:46 PM] Forward Arrow: But I digress.
  334. [3:05:46 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:05 PM] Forward Arrow:
  335.  
  336. <<< I mean you told me it had lag before. Don't go back on that nowyes, but all other moves also presumably have lag
  337. [3:05:53 PM] Forward Arrow: Lunge's Fair has 0 lag
  338. [3:05:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady's is looking a lot stronger than WL's to me.
  339. [3:06:02 PM] Forward Arrow: Smady's cancelling move has 0 lag
  340. [3:06:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Mine has like 2-3 frames.
  341. [3:06:11 PM] MunomARRio777: welp
  342. [3:06:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also
  343. [3:06:17 PM] Forward Arrow: Beeheyem can, under ideal conditions, probably start after 4 frames
  344. [3:06:24 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lunge FAir and Smady c ancel has 1 frame.
  345. [3:06:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As the game needs 1 frame to register any move.
  346. [3:06:36 PM] Forward Arrow: true
  347. [3:06:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Therefor, lagless means it comes out after 1 frame.
  348. [3:06:54 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's pretty telling that Fox's Melee Shine is technically lagless
  349. [3:07:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: This is direct example in game of how broken it is for a move to be "lagless"
  350. [3:07:19 PM] MunomARRio777: mhm
  351. [3:07:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh god
  352. [3:07:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That Shedinja Up Special.
  353. [3:07:33 PM] MunomARRio777: ZSS's and Mac's jabs are also frame 1
  354. [3:07:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Strictly better than my Up Special.
  355. [3:07:37 PM] Forward Arrow: I feel Froy's infinite range disable thing might actually give Smady some big problems.
  356. [3:07:37 PM] MunomARRio777: but have actual ending lag
  357. [3:07:42 PM] MasterWarlord: What makes the duplicates actually eat the honey on US'?
  358. [3:07:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The duplicates copy what you do.
  359. [3:07:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So just him eating the hunny makes them eat the hunny.
  360. [3:07:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: IIRC.
  361. [3:07:58 PM] Forward Arrow: Smady, you did not point out something big about Shedinja's USpecial that I think makes it even better than you said though
  362. [3:08:01 PM] Forward Arrow: just put out your duplicate
  363. [3:08:03 PM] MasterWarlord: This behavior is taken from Kang or Zubat?
  364. [3:08:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): they mimic me automatically, and they're counted as 'real' once my FSmash gets them
  365. [3:08:04 PM] Forward Arrow: via Teferi
  366. [3:08:05 PM] Forward Arrow: 30 stocks
  367. [3:08:06 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): zubat
  368. [3:08:07 PM] Forward Arrow: instead of 15
  369. [3:08:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Ah yeah, you're right
  370. [3:08:23 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I did think that passively, but yeah very possible
  371. [3:08:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady's seems monstrously strong.
  372. [3:08:45 PM] Forward Arrow: I am actually thinking Smady's can beat Warlord's by cancelling his assault with lagless FSmash, following into Chao NSpecial and then just bullying him into defeat with his 30+ stock lead
  373. [3:09:08 PM] Forward Arrow: I wish we had specific lag for Teferi time stop though
  374. [3:09:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think Warlord's relies way too much on iffy Lizard USpec speed/passive grab hitbox compared to Smady's.
  375. [3:09:15 PM] Forward Arrow: because if we had that, Smady could get 30+ stocks on EVERYONE
  376. [3:09:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm
  377. [3:09:24 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Teferi has no lag time
  378. [3:09:33 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I say in the write ups, Teferi is one of the worst sets ever made
  379. [3:09:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I actually read Teferi but I didn't think to combine it with Funny or Shedinja.
  380. [3:09:45 PM] Forward Arrow: I'd assume it was meant to not come out instantly but I'm not sure.
  381. [3:09:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: so I missed all this potential.
  382. [3:09:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also yes, Teferi's REALLY bad.
  383. [3:10:13 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: When it doesn't state lag at all it's really awkward
  384. [3:10:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I completely missed Funny as an option, honestly
  385. [3:10:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I forgot Funny's boss mode made them instant KOs.
  386. [3:10:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I was thinking purely in terms of older sets where 'balance' was about as grasped as actual smash mechanics
  387. [3:10:41 PM | Edited 3:10:46 PM] Forward Arrow: From the animation, it doens't sound like much is the thing
  388. [3:10:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So I only thought of the normal version where they just KO.
  389. [3:10:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I do really wonder if Funny's dupes would just KO US's dupes if they are "real"
  390. [3:10:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is obv a lot weaker for Lizard challenge.
  391. [3:10:54 PM] Forward Arrow: And we're operating on 1/3rd of that
  392. [3:11:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't think so Smady.
  393. [3:11:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Funny's dupes only work on his own stuff, IIRC.
  394. [3:11:06 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Only the player one?
  395. [3:11:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So I don't think it would interact with other dupes.
  396. [3:11:23 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Nah I mean for hitting the foe with their own dupe, if they are "real" it might work
  397. [3:11:32 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: We're talking about Zubat "real" logic is why I say this
  398. [3:11:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "(Side note, this move convinced me this is one of worst sets period.)" It took you this long?
  399. [3:12:10 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I was going to say top 10 but edited it to be more clean
  400. [3:12:17 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's a big deal getting into my top 10 worst
  401. [3:12:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Point, though if I've got my dupes out during the time stop it doesn't matter since I honey for game (I get x space of Lizard clones, x being reasonably hude, and Lizard is literally small enough to fit under a rock)
  402. [3:12:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Teferi's a good bet for it, tho.
  403. [3:12:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "-Self-explanatory" this is the best Strangelove NAir writeup
  404. [3:13:01 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Yup
  405. [3:13:11 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: What else is there to say not already said
  406. [3:13:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I'd have to look Zubat up again since I made this at the start and promptly didn't touch it much after, but I can't recall if the dupes were stated to count for my stocks/were attack-able or just count as the attacks they're making being real
  407. [3:13:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh man.
  408. [3:13:23 PM] MasterWarlord: Actually killing is less important than stunning. I am not convinced I can't get out of way of the Chao move at match start. I care more about Valozarg Jab which was very tempting pick up.
  409. [3:13:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That Strangelove up aerial use is really clever.
  410. [3:13:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I didn't think about giving it 5 Power.
  411. [3:13:50 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Thanks, it should definitely KO Lizard with that from 0%
  412. [3:13:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You actually want to give it 5 Knockback, tho.
  413. [3:13:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm
  414. [3:14:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Good idea
  415. [3:14:14 PM] MunomARRio777: "From there, the assortment of SSB64 aerials can be used to combo the foe to death with their disproportionately high hitstun carried over from SSB64, while simultaneously having lower lag due to Lizard." (MW's smash only entry)
  416.  
  417. hitstun formula is determined by game engine, not by move
  418. [3:14:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): pretty much the rest of my moveset is useless for this beyond the standard stuff
  419. [3:14:39 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Thing about Valozarg jab too is it's twice as quick due to the down special dupe
  420. [3:14:44 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: so it definitely infinites with 5 speed
  421. [3:14:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: it's essentially 6x as fast
  422. [3:14:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I definitely feel like Smady is stronger than WL here.
  423. [3:15:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm unsure I can beat Smady.
  424. [3:15:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Largely because he has so many backup combos.
  425. [3:15:09 PM] MasterWarlord: SSB64 moves do not have coded values for other games, it would copy the SSB64 properties.
  426. [3:15:10 PM] Forward Arrow: It has to be said US' is still monstrously strong lol. Even Muno's is pretty damn scary and would destroy 99% of MYM sets(I think one of the main ones I can actually think of that would beat Muno's is just Boss Nappa through sheer durabilitY)
  427. [3:15:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I basically MUST hit Neutral Special almost instantly.
  428. [3:15:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Or Down Tilt.
  429. [3:15:37 PM] MunomARRio777: "Meta Knight Up Aerial is not as good as the SSB64 aerials obviously, and is largely here as a failsafe for its ability to momentum cancel and artifically increase Lizard's terrible weight."
  430.  
  431. momentum canceling was also removed in smash 4, as was the ability to act out of hitstun that early
  432. [3:15:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: On the other hand, I do have a lot of ways to do that very fast.
  433. [3:15:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the poison seemed like a good investment if alternate win cons got banned somehow, since with my duplicates I make lingering effects that occupy a full area and stack to instantly kill any opponent they touch several times over (Neutrality can shut them off, but you'd have to inch your way forwards while spamming it to get through)
  434. [3:15:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But he also has that Shedinja FAir.
  435. [3:16:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And most importantly I don't have a good way around the stock upping.
  436. [3:16:01 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:15 PM] MasterWarlord:
  437.  
  438. <<< SSB64 moves do not have coded values for other games, it would copy the SSB64 properties.the SSB64 moves would carry over their damage / knockback / etc, which in sm4sh would use sm4sh's lower hitstun formula
  439. [3:16:04 PM] MunomARRio777: just like any other move
  440. [3:16:30 PM] MasterWarlord: I have backup options. I am just busy spamming about the speed of my most relevant ones because most of these are so slow and that is what I believe most matters.
  441. [3:16:33 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: A good one too is the ftilt with the dupe to probably push most characters off the blast zone immediately and then do jab to damage them once they're past it, might be enough to beat US
  442. [3:16:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): My last ditch is the duplicates + Voldemort Up Aerial
  443. [3:17:07 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the latter expands 'on contact with a character'
  444. [3:17:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Thing is I can just get rid of all your shit really quickly and then ignore them, I feel like Warlord's has too many moving parts and really relies on the Lizard USpec essentially being 1 frame.
  445. [3:17:16 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): if my dupes count... oh hey, where'd the stage go?
  446. [3:17:21 PM] MunomARRio777: "Brawl Ganondorf Side Special cannot be teched when the foe hits the ground like in SSB4 and Project M."
  447.  
  448. SSB4 version can still be teched. Dunno about PM, but that's a) either due to engine mechanics or b) not included due to being listed as brawl ganon.
  449. [3:17:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): then I time stop bs during your respawn to honey for game
  450. [3:17:29 PM] Forward Arrow: There is one problem with your arguments against Warlord's though Muno, that I feel is worth bringing up
  451. [3:17:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which I don't think is true.
  452. [3:17:47 PM] Forward Arrow: Even if SSB64 moves are nerfed into the ground, I'm convinced its stronger than yours
  453. [3:17:56 PM] Forward Arrow: by abusing Shine + Lizard flight
  454. [3:17:57 PM] MunomARRio777: SSB64 hitstun is rather minor, yes
  455. [3:17:59 PM] Forward Arrow: its all he really needs lol
  456. [3:18:08 PM] MunomARRio777: though I also have a luma
  457. [3:18:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: from what I can gather, Sonic's dash speed is approximately 1 FD / secondMuno says Sonic's dash speed is 1 FD / 1 sec, lets assume it is close to correct.
  458. [3:18:12 PM] Forward Arrow: And unfortunately you two were the only two to enter that challenge
  459. [3:18:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): FA, there is one thing I've brought up about Lizard Flight
  460. [3:18:21 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I'm fairly happy with the time stop I got for Teferi's other broken moves, but Kang is definitely a strong choice with Zubat
  461. [3:18:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That means 4.5x Sonic's dash speed is 1 Fd / 15 frames.
  462. [3:18:29 PM] MunomARRio777: luma might be able to save me depending on how that decides to work out
  463. [3:18:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You don't just instantly appear in front of someone with it.
  464. [3:18:34 PM] MunomARRio777: especially given its speed buffs
  465. [3:18:46 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 4.5x sonic speed, even with frame perfect, is probably not controllable with any precision
  466. [3:18:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Or rather, 1 FD / 13.5 frames or so.
  467. [3:18:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Due to the .5
  468. [3:19:01 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): on smaller stages, it'd be unusable without KOing yourself
  469. [3:19:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (though on those you just use normal Lizard USpec, obviously)
  470. [3:19:24 PM] MunomARRio777: it's also worth noting that with lizard uspec I have 45-60 frames to act before he reaches me
  471. [3:19:33 PM] MunomARRio777: (not to mention how I have that same mobility)
  472. [3:19:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't see how you don't just get wreck by me, Smady or US during that time when you ALSO basically need to do things like setup an Illidan BAir, Funny dupe, and whatnot.
  473. [3:19:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Me and Smady can casually stunlock you.
  474. [3:19:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US just wins by that point.
  475. [3:20:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not counting input ban tricks etc
  476. [3:20:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The strategy is too flimsy.
  477. [3:20:10 PM] Forward Arrow: I'm pretty sure Luma and Lizard could be simultaneously stunlocked by DSpecial
  478. [3:20:13 PM] MunomARRio777: also I have a sped up homing samus missile
  479. [3:20:17 PM] MunomARRio777: and disjoints
  480. [3:20:20 PM] MunomARRio777: etc
  481. [3:20:24 PM] Forward Arrow: Which reflects your Samus missile
  482. [3:20:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Like, in one frame you move a significant distance, and a frame is how long it takes an input to be read
  483. [3:20:36 PM] Forward Arrow: Melee Shine with buffed range is ridiculous Muno
  484. [3:20:42 PM] Forward Arrow: I don't think anything in your set can get through it
  485. [3:20:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US also brings up a good point in that TAS doesn't necessarily even let this set work.
  486. [3:20:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (it's kind of ridiculous that a move is arguably TOO fast to be usable)
  487. [3:20:58 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I like how Valozarg has the Splashmaster fsmash logic of cancelling it into itself. I also think you guys should take the time to google Valozarg and see all the MYM relevant stuff that pops up
  488. [3:21:04 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:20 PM] Forward Arrow:
  489.  
  490. <<< Melee Shine with buffed range is ridiculous Muno
  491. I don't think anything in your set can get through itpac jump
  492. [3:21:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's amazing
  493. [3:21:11 PM] MunomARRio777: the most random thing in my set lolol
  494. [3:21:39 PM] MasterWarlord: I disagree it is that slow.
  495.  
  496. The Illidan bair is only used after the foe's current stock is taken care of and is never tried to be landed with on its own. It is just used as part of a combo to ensure foe cannot do anything after their first death.
  497. [3:22:16 PM] MunomARRio777: also I have cloud uair with 5x range, which has more disjoint
  498. [3:22:20 PM] MunomARRio777: i.e. any disjoint at all
  499. [3:22:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't see how it can be disagreed with reliably when we can actually remotely measure Sonic's dash speed in game.
  500. [3:22:37 PM] MunomARRio777: cloud uair > shine, ergo cloud uair 5x > shine 5x
  501. [3:22:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If Muno's measurements are remotely close to right then Smady will just own you.
  502. [3:22:50 PM] Forward Arrow: I mean fair but Cloud Uair isn't frame 1
  503. [3:23:02 PM] MunomARRio777: neither is lizard uspec across the stage
  504. [3:23:15 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I still need to read any of them outside US', just skimmed them mostly
  505. [3:23:26 PM] MasterWarlord: As in Muno's measurement seems off.
  506. [3:23:29 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Warlord's write up is pretty great from what I've read
  507. [3:23:30 PM] MunomARRio777: it's not accurate
  508. [3:23:33 PM] MunomARRio777: primarily guesswork
  509. [3:23:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You need Muno to be off by a huge amount, though.
  510. [3:23:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You need him to be off by a factor of, like, 10.
  511. [3:23:56 PM] MunomARRio777: cloud uair is frame 7 btw, whereas lizard dash across the stage takes at least 2/3 of a second to reach me
  512. [3:23:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Sonic needs to go across the stage normally in like 15 frames which he definitely does not.
  513. [3:24:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'll admit I'm pretty much just going by what's in the chat- my set depends on a sole lynchpin and whether I have a leg to stand on or not is based solely on if you can get rid of it.
  514. [3:24:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just for Lizard USpec to be able to go FD's distance in like 3-4 frames.
  515. [3:24:34 PM] MunomARRio777: another alternative is zss usmash, which is frame 13 (and also range 5x)
  516. [3:24:41 PM] MunomARRio777: tho cloud uair should still linger enough
  517. [3:25:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I cannot possibly see how, when you also need to input the Lizard NSpec at least once or twice, Smady doesn't just win with all of Teferi's crap. US does all of his stuff at match start.
  518. [3:25:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I also don't even get how you "combo" Illidan's Back Aerial.
  519. [3:25:49 PM] MasterWarlord: Combo out of pitfall.
  520. [3:26:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And then kill themw ith...?
  521. [3:26:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If you're talking Funny clone then you are taking way too long compared to Smady.
  522. [3:26:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You're needing to use like 3-4 NSpec moves + USpec + travel time.
  523. [3:26:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And I can just cancel it.
  524. [3:26:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, pitfall time is dependant on damage.
  525. [3:27:02 PM] MasterWarlord: Lag reduction means every move gives you frame advantage in this game basically. I am out of lag while you are still in generic stun to the point I have time to just do something like Funny S Spec
  526. [3:27:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Your moveset deals 0 damage before pifalling.
  527. [3:27:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So they're going to essentially escape instantly.
  528. [3:27:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I take several inputs, too, but the first literally resets match state to start (with obstructions to the other players) and the second means only I get to act for the rest of them.
  529. [3:27:21 PM] Forward Arrow: Also this isn't terribly relevant, but I figure you guys might get a laugh out of it
  530. [3:27:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lag reduction means every move gives you frame advantage in this game basically.Yes and you need to use massively more moves than me/Smady/Us.
  531. [3:27:38 PM] Forward Arrow: Jeice can get his projectile travelling at 4.5x Sonic's dash speed
  532. [3:27:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You are giving us more frame advantage.
  533. [3:27:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so I technically need only 1 input to win
  534. [3:27:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and pfft
  535. [3:27:57 PM] MasterWarlord: You have ways for getting out of stun?
  536. [3:27:59 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Crusher Ball is fastest thing alive
  537. [3:28:00 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:27 PM] Forward Arrow:
  538.  
  539. <<< Jeice can get his projectile travelling at 4.5x Sonic's dash speed[gotta go fast intensifies]
  540. [3:28:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US can essentially win in 1-2 inputs. Smady wins in 1-2 inputs. I win in 1-2 inputs with Down Tilt/Up Smash, in theory.
  541. [3:28:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You have ways for getting out of stun?You never even get to the point to stun them vs. us.
  542. [3:28:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And you can't grab people who are pitfalled and the pitfalling ends I am going to bet in barely any frames.
  543. [3:28:45 PM] MunomARRio777: I win with nspec if I manage to get it in before someone bans my observation
  544. [3:28:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: you are overestimating how fast you are going.
  545. [3:28:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): plus that obstruction is a dumber AI you, positioned right in the way, and sharing your stocks
  546. [3:29:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, I don't think the pitfall throw even works.
  547. [3:29:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "Characters can only be buried if already standing on the ground; moves that bury will usually meteor smash airborne opponents."
  548.  
  549. And Lizard is in the air because USpec.
  550. [3:29:46 PM] MasterWarlord: I win in Lizard Up B yes. Everything after that is comboing. At least I have speeds compared to your MYM 2 set you are using.
  551. [3:30:10 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): which is why I chose Kang's Down Special for this; because even if I get totally fucked, there is a split second in which your copy might RNG fuck you with your own gimmick, though that's pretty much spite and not anything reliable with this kind of competition
  552. [3:30:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lizard USpec will take too long to get to people, can be looped, cancelled, etc
  553. [3:30:15 PM] MunomARRio777: if the meteor effect isn't explicitly stated, then that wario bike shenanigans Jamie posted comes to mind
  554. [3:30:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Even if you argue you're beating mine, w/e, I don't see how you beat US or Smady.
  555. [3:30:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): also if it moves like you describe, it is literally not functional for the precision of movement needed
  556. [3:30:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I also agree with US on this topic.
  557. [3:30:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): re: Lizard up special
  558. [3:30:49 PM] MasterWarlord: I wouldn't be using this if it was Sonic's shitty speed or the base Lizard Up B of 1.5X. 4.5X is a thing.
  559. [3:30:50 PM] MunomARRio777: [Wednesday, September 14, 2016 3:12 PM] MasterWarlord:
  560.  
  561. <<< In Brawl, if Wario strikes a buried Pitfall while riding on his Wario Bike (and is not wheelieing or taunting), he will be sent flying for an instant KO. This is due to how Wario is considered grounded despite being unable to be buried or plunged, and so he takes the full effect of the planted Pitfall's fixed knockback value of a ludicrous 300 (designed for a long bury time). This knockback value is also why the crowd cheers when someone enters a Pitfall.
  562. [3:30:56 PM] MunomARRio777: er, wait
  563. [3:30:57 PM] MunomARRio777: nvm
  564. [3:30:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yours doesn't work.
  565. [3:31:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't feel it beats any but Muno's right now.
  566. [3:31:12 PM] MunomARRio777: hmm
  567. [3:31:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Tho I still need to finish Muno's)
  568. [3:31:23 PM] MunomARRio777: everything in mine is at the start : p
  569. [3:31:43 PM] MunomARRio777: if the pitfall throw in question doesn't mention it meteors midair foes, then it'll likely do something similar to the thing I quoted
  570. [3:31:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I saw spoiler tags and decided I'd come back later.
  571. [3:31:51 PM] MasterWarlord: the pitfall is a throw on the uka uka grab. It brings them to the ground in a stall then fall. It doesn't meme pitfall them in the air lol.
  572. [3:31:55 PM] MunomARRio777: though shorter pitfall = lower knockback
  573. [3:32:04 PM] MunomARRio777: oh ok lol
  574. [3:32:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hmm.
  575. [3:32:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Can they break out during the stall?
  576. [3:32:33 PM] MasterWarlord: no
  577. [3:32:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Since, again, 0% = near instant breaks)
  578. [3:33:10 PM] MasterWarlord: it is also 3X grab escape so it is going to be around 15 or so frames
  579. [3:33:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Does Muno know how much someone at 0% escapes grabs?
  580. [3:33:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not relevant I think eitheer way but.
  581. [3:33:48 PM] MunomARRio777: no
  582. [3:35:21 PM] MasterWarlord: Anyway US' does not sound terribly fast IMO. I have been at all concerned by Smady's, yes.
  583. [3:35:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Down Special is all I need to get off for game, mind
  584. [3:35:43 PM] Forward Arrow: You guys asked for a ruling on Uka Uka grab in the backlog at one point right?
  585. [3:35:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I don't have to move or anything for
  586. [3:35:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it
  587. [3:35:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US is incredibly fast when you factor in he only needs to DSpec.
  588. [3:35:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also yes @ FA
  589. [3:35:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since he has time loops and time stops.
  590. [3:35:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Then just pulls out hunny and wins.
  591. [3:36:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): one frame Lizard N Spec plus whatever frame count the Down Special is with x5 speed
  592. [3:36:27 PM] MunomARRio777: https://youtu.be/pwfXtDiQA24?t=3m47s this is 100% grab escape with ~optimal mashing
  593. [3:36:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that's your time limit for killing me
  594. [3:37:04 PM] MasterWarlord: How do steps 2-4 not take any time
  595. [3:37:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: They're during a time stop.
  596. [3:37:10 PM] MunomARRio777: https://youtu.be/pwfXtDiQA24?t=5m25s this might be slightly faster tho
  597. [3:37:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You cannot move.
  598. [3:37:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 1 resets the board
  599. [3:37:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh, wrong steps lol
  600. [3:37:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and puts a hostile, stupid clone of yourself in front of- ah, yeah
  601. [3:37:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I did not have time to rewrite that section
  602. [3:37:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And yes, US' step 1 resets everything you did.
  603. [3:37:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I put in the actual win combo after that
  604. [3:37:47 PM | Edited 3:38:06 PM] MunomARRio777: https://youtu.be/pwfXtDiQA24?t=6m 55% difficulty (100% pitfall immediately following)
  605. [3:38:19 PM] Forward Arrow: I've had to think about it a little bit, but with the way Lizard works he's not TAC, he doesn't automatically "have" the move once he gets it. He has to use stuff out of an observation stance. For the sake of having the same level of accessibility as Uka Uka's however, I'd require him to activate observation stance and press Z, at which point he gets the mask effect laglessly. AKA 1 frame
  606. [3:39:01 PM] Forward Arrow: Basically it adds 2 frames at some point in Warlord's plan. That might aactually be kind of detrimental but what can you do
  607. [3:39:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm sorry but regardless of how strong Muno's ends up being
  608. [3:39:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): step 1 resets the board and dumps a big dump lump of AI you in front of you in a hostile state, so if you couldn't get to me before I Down Special'd you're not getting to me before I time stop and do the rest of my combo (Side Spec Side Spec FSmash N Spec game)
  609. [3:39:15 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: can I just say I love how he actually uses a Doopliss move for it.
  610. [3:39:21 PM] MunomARRio777: heh
  611. [3:39:29 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: lol yeah, I looked at Doopliss for a second
  612. [3:39:29 PM] MunomARRio777: uspec -> sspec is also a fun combo in mine
  613. [3:39:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): also dumb AI you shares your stocks, though you don't die/respawn if it does so that's kind of meaningless
  614. [3:39:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Doopliss was golden poo for a good year or something
  615. [3:39:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since what decides it is if you get to me in time and kill me
  616. [3:40:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So I think the question we should focus on for now is
  617. [3:40:07 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): pretty much my actual combo here:
  618. [3:40:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Who wins in US' entry vs. Smady's entry.
  619. [3:41:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 1. Down Special. Resets the board, everyone has a dumb AI version of them right next to them that last until the point of reset, which is obviously next to nothing but in this competition that's one or two extra frames you're losing getting past the wall of AI dumb.
  620. [3:41:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 2. Up Special. Stops time for a period depending on how long the match has gone since the start/last time stop, whichever is most recent
  621. [3:41:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, Uka Uka's passive grab would grab the AI, right?
  622. [3:41:46 PM] MasterWarlord: Well because of your insistence is it not passive anymore
  623. [3:41:53 PM] MasterWarlord: It is a frame 1 move like lunge fair
  624. [3:42:04 PM] MunomARRio777: https://smashboards.com/threads/mashing-mechanics.418228/ for a conclusive answer on grab escape time, with frame-perfect mashing at 0% it's about 6 frames
  625. [3:42:11 PM] MasterWarlord: Word of god says so
  626. [3:42:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So 3x would be like 18 frames.
  627. [3:42:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 3. Grab dumb AI me before he vanishes into the ether, use Zubat special pummel. The stage is now a shitty Lizard desktop image with densely packed illusions of me.
  628. [3:42:44 PM] MunomARRio777: [3:42 PM] Twilight Sparkle:
  629.  
  630. <<< So 3x would be like 18 frames.more complicated than that I think
  631. [3:42:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 4. Side Special copies whatever is in its area of effect on use 1, creates illusionary copies on use 2.
  632. [3:42:57 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Main thing I feel gives me advantage there is the fsmash/jab/ftilt to cancel and push US's set to the blast zone pretty quickly, like probably instantly, and if he's doing honey I can either interrupt it with jab or cancel it with fsmash. I'd basically just need to push US's off stage and jab/ftilt to win.
  633. [3:42:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Unless it is exponetal.
  634. [3:43:11 PM] MunomARRio777: the base escape difficulty increases with 3x difficulty, but the amount reduced per button input does not
  635. [3:43:28 PM | Edited 3:43:51 PM] MunomARRio777: Grabs without mashing
  636.  
  637. Grab length at 0%: 1.5 seconds
  638. Grab length growth: 1 second per 35% damage
  639.  
  640. Reduction by mashing
  641.  
  642. Button inputs: ~0.25 seconds
  643. Directional inputs (control stick): ~0.14 seconds (about 1 second for every 1 1/2 rotations)
  644. C-stick inputs: ~0.14 seconds (rotating doesn't work)
  645. [3:43:28 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I wasn't sure though if US's set has super armour to stop the jab spam
  646. [3:43:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 5. Forward Smash turns copies created by Side Special (explicitly only that, else I'd skip Side Special) 'real', meaning that a huge block jam-packed with as many tiny Lizard clones as possible is now in play, mimicking my every move
  647. [3:43:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So would that mean that it is more or less w/ button mash not being reduced?
  648. [3:43:56 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 6. Honey.
  649. [3:44:13 PM] MunomARRio777: let's see
  650. [3:44:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Did always kind of wonder about the mashing effect on grab timer
  651. [3:44:26 PM] MunomARRio777: 1.5 seconds * 3 = 4.5 seconds
  652. [3:45:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): With frame perfect, I have enough time during the time stop to get to step 6 and win before you become able to act again, and possibly enough time to Up Smash into Strangelove bunker/throw out a hundred-fold overlapping poison hitboxes that mean you can't actually put anything in where I am without it instantly dying
  653. [3:45:40 PM | Edited 3:46:26 PM] MunomARRio777: 4.5 times 60 (frames) times 4 (each input = 0.25 seconds lost) = 1080 frames = 18 seconds
  654. [3:45:41 PM] MunomARRio777: rip
  655. [3:45:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: so
  656. [3:45:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: what I said.
  657. [3:46:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): assuming stocks were set high enough at frame start to prevent the solid block of lizard clones from being enough
  658. [3:46:07 PM] MunomARRio777: SECONDS
  659. [3:46:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: oh
  660. [3:46:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: LOL
  661. [3:46:12 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *game start
  662. [3:46:22 PM] MasterWarlord: Relevant thing upon pulling up Kang.
  663.  
  664. Up B time freeze ends early if Kang creates any hitbox. Grabbing his own duplicate and the rest of the crap in combo is that.
  665. [3:46:27 PM] Forward Arrow: You know, can I actually put Jamie in here?
  666. [3:46:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: yes
  667. [3:46:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh
  668. [3:46:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): well, shit
  669. [3:46:39 PM] MunomARRio777: er, wait
  670. [3:46:43 PM] MunomARRio777: I think I miscalculated some stuff
  671. [3:46:44 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Go ahead FA
  672. [3:46:57 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Though maybe after we've discussed some more ourselves
  673. [3:47:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: As I feel like we're getting anywhere
  674. [3:47:12 PM] Forward Arrow: Mostly because I want him to be here for numbers stuff. Muno's nice but having one of the biggest numbers guys in MYM here might be useful
  675. [3:47:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): gotta grab before then. Hm.
  676. [3:47:13 PM] MunomARRio777: ok so I made a huge derp lolol
  677. [3:47:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If US' is gone, then Smady wins I think.
  678. [3:47:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): does echolocation count as a hitbox?
  679. [3:47:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also can I just say
  680. [3:47:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I love how absurd this whole thing is lol.
  681. [3:47:54 PM] MunomARRio777: [2:25 PM] MunomARRio777:
  682.  
  683. <<< this is the most MYM thing ever
  684. [3:47:54 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: This is about as MYM as it gets yeah
  685. [3:47:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think it says a lot about some MYM sets fromt he past, especially since some like Grunt/Strangelove got high.
  686. [3:48:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Down Spec -> grab + special pummel -> Up Special -> Side Special twice -> Neutral Special -> Forward Smash
  687. [3:48:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Someone, probably FA should try and pastebin this for posterity
  688. [3:48:15 PM] Forward Arrow: oh I will don't worry
  689. [3:48:18 PM] Forward Arrow: this should be archived
  690. [3:48:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that's a slightly bigger opening after the reset when you have your clone to deal with, but
  691. [3:48:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think US would still work with that sequence, but that now Smady wins the matchup with jabs.
  692. [3:48:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the combo holds up that way
  693. [3:48:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I can also probably beat US too given what me/US had discussed before.
  694. [3:48:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Warlord's still too slow with the USpec.
  695. [3:48:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, Smady would just use his input twice- once to get rid of his own copy, once to hit me
  696. [3:49:00 PM] MunomARRio777: ok so yeah, it is 18 frames @froy
  697. [3:49:08 PM] MunomARRio777: .-.
  698. [3:49:09 PM] Forward Arrow: You know, I will point out something worth mentioning. Warlord's No Strangelove entry has something very notable in there if you guys haven't looked at it.
  699. [3:49:12 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Valozarg jab x6 is that good really. Lag is not stated but not hard to assume it's just lagless given it's apparently a lot less than 0.3 at base
  700. [3:49:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though technically, my copy would disappear during the pummel, so I'd have no grab release lag, I think?
  701. [3:49:24 PM] Forward Arrow: Mostly for the sheer speed of match victory
  702. [3:49:25 PM] MasterWarlord: Faster than anything Beeheyem does. But yes, Smady is very obv fastest
  703. [3:49:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I blatantly have only looked at the base challenge because it is the one I entered.
  704. [3:49:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also I can do my stuff before Lizard USpec 5x speed reaches me, I bet.
  705. [3:49:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Hold that thought, there- I'm still pretty damn fast
  706. [3:49:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not even counting any of my other input bans etc.
  707. [3:49:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Down Special is as silly as ever, and I only need to do one very quick thing before time-stopping now
  708. [3:50:29 PM] Forward Arrow: Bah, I gotta go to class. I'm really enjoying this discussion but I unfortunately won't be able to participate for a while. It'll be cool to see what you guys determine in the meanwhile. Seeya in 1.5 hours!
  709. [3:50:40 PM] MunomARRio777: o/
  710. [3:50:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it can make all the difference, true, but during that point people are stuck with their dumb AI copies in between them and me
  711. [3:50:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): cya FA
  712. [3:50:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I feel the big thing that messes with everything for US is just the Valozarg jab.
  713. [3:50:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Bye FA
  714. [3:51:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Stage-wide stun that doesn't stop at one thing and is repeatable and near lagless.
  715. [3:51:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (If not lagless)
  716. [3:51:16 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ah
  717. [3:51:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Its also whats fucking me over since I didn't even think to check Valozarg's jab.
  718. [3:51:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also something I feel I should note WL
  719. [3:51:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: My Jab can make youi go 1/4th speed from across the stage.
  720. [3:51:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Only for a few frames but still.
  721. [3:52:18 PM] MasterWarlord: Though Smady does jack shit to respawn invincibility even if he kills KangBatPooh first stock.
  722. [3:52:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, that is the big issue.
  723. [3:52:29 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh, that is true
  724. [3:53:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): then I just say 'thanks', Down Special, Grab my past self during my own invulnerability, Up Special, and the combo is back in business
  725. [3:53:05 PM] MasterWarlord: I still am fairly confident I would beat US' even if we are going with this slower Lizard speed
  726. [3:53:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't see how its possible.
  727. [3:53:12 PM] MunomARRio777: lemme just say
  728. [3:53:18 PM] MunomARRio777: if there was ever a mym set that should be modded into smash, it's one of these
  729. [3:53:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): lol
  730. [3:53:24 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If US beats Smady then US wins.
  731. [3:53:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If Smady beats US still, then I think Smady wins.
  732. [3:53:42 PM] MunomARRio777: in smash would be fairly feasible, we can already swap moves from character to character in sm4sh mods
  733. [3:53:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): especially since my time stop duration keeps building even when I'm dead
  734. [3:53:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): heck, against Smady I could use that
  735. [3:53:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I wonder if Smady can just win by stalling tho, US.
  736. [3:54:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): just Up Special my ass off the stage and die
  737. [3:54:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just repeatedly remove you from the stage + stun and win by damage.
  738. [3:54:13 PM | Edited 3:54:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (Lizard Up Special)
  739. [3:54:19 PM] MunomARRio777: I reeeeally wish I'd used omochao's nspec
  740. [3:54:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *Lizard Up Special, that is
  741. [3:54:35 PM] MunomARRio777: because controlling lizard = killing lizard
  742. [3:54:37 PM] MunomARRio777: because uspec
  743. [3:54:52 PM] MasterWarlord: US has to do a whole ton of shit, the Kang Up B is not very useful. With how much you are memeing on Beeheyem speed I can still get to him before he does all of this other stuff. You said mine has to "do a lot of moves", Kang has to do a lot when his Up B doesn't help him.
  744. [3:54:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The respawn invicibility isn't really enough on its own to win I think, unless it's long enough to cover the entire honey eating process
  745. [3:55:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No, he uses the respawn to do his combo.
  746. [3:55:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which involves the time loop/time stop/etc to win via one hunny eat.
  747. [3:55:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I just need to be invulnerable long enough to get the grab, then I can Up Special time stop
  748. [3:55:42 PM] MasterWarlord: My argument for beating US when Smady doesn't is ignoring respawn invincibility
  749. [3:55:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Side Special doesn't read like it creates a hitbox, and I can generate the honey (DEFINITELY doesn't), and then use Forward Smash to make them real (definitely does)
  750. [3:55:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also WL, US literally just lands a time loop that keeps the foe from doing a move due to it putting you in the front
  751. [3:55:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: and then land a grab.
  752. [3:55:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That is two moves and only one is respondable too.
  753. [3:56:07 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well if you go back to the start of the match won't I just blow the old Lizard off the stage and murder him
  754. [3:56:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You need to USpec, NSpec into Uka Uka grab, fly forward, pitfall throw, NSpec other things.
  755. [3:56:15 PM] MasterWarlord: he has to pummel and Side Special the dupes
  756. [3:56:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: SSpec works during time freeze.
  757. [3:56:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As it does not make a hitbox.
  758. [3:56:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): you'd have to do it before he goes all "Now I must go, my people need me", but possible
  759. [3:56:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: He WOULD need to pummel tho.
  760. [3:56:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though that'd only cost me a stock, not shut off my pummel effect
  761. [3:56:47 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: My wind hitbox is pretty massive in fairness
  762. [3:56:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: This isn't even counting the fact you need to work your combo into a back Aerial to keep US from beating you via respawn
  763. [3:57:00 PM] MasterWarlord: His crap is interruptible, mine's a combo
  764. [3:57:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not to mention comboing him at the start.
  765. [3:57:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It is the entire length of FD and I can do it twice with the dupe
  766. [3:57:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yours is a slow combo and I don't even see how its unbreakable given Smash 4 engine.
  767. [3:57:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yours is MORe interruptable.
  768. [3:57:35 PM] MasterWarlord: I am not even going to entertain my combo being interruptible
  769. [3:57:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Only two moves are interruptable, and the first resets you the where you were and gives you a big ol' obstacle to deal with on top of the second being faster
  770. [3:57:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You severely overestimate Lizard's USpec travel time and are not considering the 1 frame interruption of the multiple NSpec uses.
  771. [3:57:50 PM] MasterWarlord: You have taken meme logic plenty far enough
  772. [3:57:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady should be able to just Valozarg jab.
  773. [3:58:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US just resets time/stops time.
  774. [3:58:16 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (man, wish I knew about Valozarg's jab on that note)
  775. [3:58:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The "meme logic" of not saying everything occurs within a single frame when you need to use NSpec, USpec, turn on Uka Uka grab and more.
  776. [3:58:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's pretty amazing with 6x speed. Might be one of most OP moves when you use the speed modifiers.
  777. [3:59:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): My Down Special does reset you, so you need to either do all that before I Down Special, or do all that with an AI you being a pain in your ass before I pummel and Time Stop.
  778. [3:59:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm not even discussing mine anymore because I don't think I can solidly win enough vs. US/Smady anyway regardless of if I beat you, I can probably beat US in very specific circumstances but I did not find out about Valozarg Jab and that rapes me too hard combined with just removing me from play.
  779. [4:00:10 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Chao is pretty great too, given if I land this projectile, I get +30 stocks
  780. [4:00:16 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: And obviously KO off it
  781. [4:00:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): also true
  782. [4:00:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, that is the other issue.
  783. [4:00:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Even ignoring the KO, my set is weak against added stocks because I forgot to read Shedinja.
  784. [4:01:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So I think Smady at the least solidly beats mine.
  785. [4:01:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I can win regardless due to my win con, assuming Smady doesn't obliterate my ass with the rest of his set, but anyone without a win con that prevents/gets around that is not gonna be having a good day
  786. [4:01:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *re: Smady match ups
  787. [4:01:34 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I do have plenty of stuff I can use to obliterate, see most of Teferi's inputs
  788. [4:01:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady vs. US is close because Smady needs to deal with respawns, but US needs to either get to respawn or do something very fast I think.
  789. [4:01:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm
  790. [4:02:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It all comes down to if Smady can win if US gets to respawn or by just stalling/damaging US I think, or if Smady can stop the combo even through spawn invincibility.
  791. [4:02:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'd argue Down Special helps me, because if his clone does his Neutral Special, his Side Special, or his Jab, I'm coming out ahead, on top of the reast
  792. [4:02:19 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *rest
  793. [4:02:40 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): cause it has just enough time for one or so quick input to fuck him over
  794. [4:02:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though that's admittedly not a good argument, since that's RNG
  795. [4:03:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: lemme just say
  796. if there was ever a mym set that should be modded into smash, it's one of theseAlso Muno
  797. [4:03:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I want you to imagine an FFA of me, WL, Smady and US' sets...
  798. [4:03:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: controlled by the CPU.
  799. [4:03:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: they just have no idea how the fuck to anything
  800. [4:03:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: chaos, pandamonium.
  801. [4:03:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'm pretty sure most of our stuff, even individually, would crash the shit out of the game
  802. [4:03:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): cats and dogs living together
  803. [4:03:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): mass hysteria!
  804. [4:03:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well I am pretty sure yours at least would due to the massive # of Lizard dupes.
  805. [4:03:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm not actually sure Smady, mine or WL's would.
  806. [4:04:06 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Zubat already crashes the game on its own
  807. [4:04:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Although I doubt any would be easy to code)
  808. [4:04:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): fair
  809. [4:04:20 PM] MasterWarlord: A good meme argument is US can only make draws because Zubat is such a bad set it would crash the game.
  810. [4:04:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The next level from Strangelove
  811. [4:04:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that is true
  812. [4:04:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Strangelove made draws due to the moveset
  813. [4:04:43 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Zubat makes draws by crashing your shit and eating your dog.
  814. [4:05:12 PM] MasterWarlord: We still never got remotely concrete generic ruling on if stalling is allowed.
  815. [4:05:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): admittedly, my goal going into this was 'okay, I cannot and will not be able to beat the others in anything resembling a straight fight with my limited knowledge, so I'll just make a set that involves the match ending without a fight as quickly as possible'
  816. [4:05:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oof, that's true
  817. [4:05:22 PM] MasterWarlord: And we blatantly never will.
  818. [4:05:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm not sure you really can make a concrete rule for it even.
  819. [4:05:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): there's also the thing that Honey is cumulative
  820. [4:05:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm pretty sure all these sets can infinite stall if they want anyway, altho US wins vs. stall anyway because he just does his combo I think?
  821. [4:06:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): not really relevant here, since if you can gank me before In combo and on respawn it doesn't matter
  822. [4:06:27 PM] MasterWarlord: Well yes, point in stalling is just to deny respawn invincibility
  823. [4:06:40 PM] MasterWarlord: I still am not convinced Smady does not lose to US' with respawn invincibility
  824. [4:06:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but I could inch my way to victory over several stocks in a match up against a set that keeps getting me if I can just Neutral B
  825. [4:06:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm not sure if Smady beats US w/ respawn invincibility either.
  826. [4:06:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which is basically what determines the winner.
  827. [4:07:14 PM] MasterWarlord: Well alternative is if stalling is generically allowed in which case who cares.
  828. [4:07:19 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Technically I think the nspec would hit through the invincibility anyway as it's not a hitbox and just needs you to land on them
  829. [4:07:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Actually, I just thought of something.
  830. [4:07:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Can US just use his time stuff or whatever to kill himself before he gets hit by an Illidan BAir anyway?
  831. [4:07:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh, possibly
  832. [4:07:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It'd be pretty hilarious to just kill himself to deny the respawn invincibility issue to win lol.
  833. [4:08:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Up Special riiiiight before going over the boundary
  834. [4:08:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, I think it still stops it @ Smady
  835. [4:08:40 PM] MasterWarlord: A long time ago US was talking about suiciding with Lizard Up B. That was one of the main points of getting Lizard Up B sped up to catch people trying to suicide.
  836. [4:08:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Because the invincibility like star invincibility stops stuff without damage/hitboxes anyway in Smash doesn't it?
  837. [4:08:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since it technically does not end if I bite it, just after time
  838. [4:08:58 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that was before Froy pointed out this detail
  839. [4:09:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Just the way it's written for the boss, implied to me that it was intended to go through anything
  840. [4:09:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also thought
  841. [4:09:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Would 5x speed on Chao's NSpec cause them to reappear 3x as fast?
  842. [4:09:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't think it even matters w/ how the set works
  843. [4:09:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: but wondering.
  844. [4:09:53 PM] MasterWarlord: It doesn't decrease stun, blatantly would not decrease that
  845. [4:09:58 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: ^
  846. [4:09:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that was a thing I brought up, and discarded for the same reason- 1 second of freedom to do whatever is still game winning
  847. [4:10:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that too
  848. [4:10:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Makes sense.
  849. [4:10:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: In that case does US still just have his instant win combo?
  850. [4:10:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since IIRC he was just worried about the speed up making it too fast to do.
  851. [4:11:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (And yeah I have no idea i f Chao NSpec works on respawn then, curse these underdetails)
  852. [4:11:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The other thing is the Funny dupes are also not a hitbox and just KO you if they touch you, don't seem to care about invincibility
  853. [4:11:20 PM] MasterWarlord: I definitely would argue against it going through invincibility.
  854. [4:11:29 PM] MasterWarlord: We blatantly meme too much on what does and doesn't go through it.
  855. [4:11:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): FA ruled that I have enough time between match start and time freeze that if I get it off, I can get finish the combo, so that bit doesn't change it. The question is do they kill me before I get off the two inputs needed.
  856. [4:11:58 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  857. [4:12:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If it doesn't go through then I think that US still wins through it?
  858. [4:12:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: In which case we come to basically "can Smady stall it out".
  859. [4:12:32 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: In fairness it's not like DM's set says you can't just infinite the nspec
  860. [4:12:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also true lol
  861. [4:12:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm
  862. [4:12:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's assumed the team won't let you do that
  863. [4:12:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But it doesn't interrupt what they're doing.
  864. [4:12:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Tho I guess yo ujust put a dupe there
  865. [4:12:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: instant KO
  866. [4:13:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: so doesn't matter unless US finishes time loop somehow BEFORE he reappears
  867. [4:13:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But then if you kill him respawn.
  868. [4:13:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): plus, Smady doesn't need to stall the match timer, just my respawn invulnerability, so I would rule he's allowed to attempt that if he can keep me from honey combioing
  869. [4:13:26 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The idea is basically swamp stage in dupes to the point you can't do anything without you or your other yous to run into it
  870. [4:13:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well, my thought is if he just keeps Chaoing you and the Chao NSpec doesn't interrupt what you're doing
  871. [4:13:41 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Then you'll, eventually, go back in time, unless he kills you.
  872. [4:13:46 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh, true
  873. [4:13:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Maybe Chao NSpec + Valozarg Jab loop?
  874. [4:14:12 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If I can land Valozarg jab I basically win because I just infinite it into itself and get to a KO percent
  875. [4:14:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well, you said it doesn't infinite into itself infinitely.
  876. [4:14:41 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Without the dupe, no, but with the dupe, very likely yes
  877. [4:14:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Ah, true.
  878. [4:14:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But can you make the dupe before US just wins?
  879. [4:14:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If yes then infinites.
  880. [4:15:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The dupe is lagless if anything is in Teferi
  881. [4:15:09 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's just an on/off switch
  882. [4:15:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Then that does work, I think.
  883. [4:15:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): shit, gotta afk for a moment
  884. [4:15:48 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The animation for the Teferi move is essentially, "he glows blue now"
  885. [4:15:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Suggests to me it's lagless
  886. [4:15:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yeah.
  887. [4:17:05 PM] MasterWarlord: With how gay this metagame is I really don't know why stalling wouldn't be allowed honestly
  888. [4:17:42 PM] MunomARRio777: tournament rules
  889. [4:17:59 PM] MunomARRio777: smash 64 has zero-to-deaths all over the place, but it still bans stalling iirc
  890. [4:18:00 PM] MasterWarlord: I know it's tourney rules, but picturing this at tournies lol.
  891. [4:18:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Pretty sure Smady just wins with Teferi dupe into Valozarg jab in that case and can just KO anyone who he has to stall due to tournament rules. US wins under tournament rules because respawn I assume.
  892. [4:18:06 PM] MunomARRio777: same with melee to a lesser extent
  893. [4:18:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Obv. just give US and Smady both articles due to their absurdity.
  894. [4:18:46 PM] MunomARRio777: does my uspec -> sspec combo count as absurd?
  895. [4:19:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Your absurdity is using Doopless at all :P
  896. [4:19:04 PM] MasterWarlord: What is the relevance of teferi dupe
  897. [4:19:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Teferi dupe uses Valozarg Jab the moment after Smady
  898. [4:19:19 PM] MunomARRio777: uspec: garithos horse
  899.  
  900. sspec: daisy mach bike (essentially wario bike)
  901. [4:19:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The jabs loop into each other for infinite stage wide stun.
  902. [4:19:29 PM] MunomARRio777: lizard riding a horse riding a motorcycle
  903. [4:19:50 PM] MasterWarlord: Well him infiniting wasn't brought into question.
  904. [4:20:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Jab stales normally enough to not infinite.
  905. [4:20:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: With Teferi dupe,still infinites.
  906. [4:20:21 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The jab infinites for the first few hits probably
  907. [4:20:28 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It would stale eventually I assume, but not with dupe there
  908. [4:20:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So you do Jab -> Dupe -> ORAORAORAORAORAORA.
  909. [4:20:46 PM] MasterWarlord: I used Valozarg Jab on a throwaway challenge
  910. [4:20:49 PM] MasterWarlord: instead of this
  911. [4:20:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (I did love how US' description of my set was "You just made Golden Experience Requiem" lol.)
  912. [4:21:18 PM] MasterWarlord: because I obv didn't expect you to shit on Lizard Up B so much which I still think beats US
  913. [4:21:43 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I mean, I basically shit up the Up Special by pointing out Sonic's actual dash speed lol.
  914. [4:21:49 PM] MasterWarlord: Anyway here is the text for Valozarg's jab.
  915. [4:22:00 PM] MasterWarlord: "
  916. Valozarg's jab is "quick to startup but has .3 seconds of ending lag". The hitbox covers the entire screen and does stun equal to Valozarg's ending lag. The ending lag is reduced due to having the speed powered up, but the stun would presumably stay the same. Sadly the stun decreases when the move stales, but getting a guaranteed stun at the start of the match before I do the rest of my ridiculous crap is still very very powerful. In addition, there is a hitbox "around Valozarg's head" that deals 3x the normal stun. Valozarg's head is very very large. It is unknown if the head's hitbox would be located up in the air where Valozarg's head would be or by lizard, though if it's at Lizard's head this attack blatantly infinites into itself at melee range."
  917. [4:22:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: One thing I was wondering is if this is tourney rules do we have a set amount of stocks or did I forget something
  918. [4:22:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady included the text for his post.
  919. [4:22:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: 3 stock 8 min IIRC @ Smady
  920. [4:22:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Highest damage percentage loses in ties.
  921. [4:22:32 PM] MasterWarlord: No, not the writeup of the move.
  922. [4:22:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Or the one w/ the least stocks)
  923. [4:22:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh lol
  924. [4:22:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: woops.
  925. [4:22:42 PM | Edited 4:22:56 PM] MunomARRio777: current main sm4sh ruleset is 2 stock 6 minutes
  926. [4:23:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I think I could win 3 stocks, the first is in the bag of course, the next 2 has to get the honey combo off pretty quickly
  927. [4:23:07 PM] MasterWarlord: ending lag goes down, stun doesn't.
  928. [4:23:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well, the key thing is just
  929. [4:23:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): back
  930. [4:23:12 PM] MasterWarlord: could just infinite by itself
  931. [4:23:15 PM] MunomARRio777: 3 stock is rather rare
  932. [4:23:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "does US get his combo off once"
  933. [4:23:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: @ Smady.
  934. [4:23:25 PM] MasterWarlord: also just casually walk over while using it to get the head hitbox.
  935. [4:23:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which I think he can w/ respawn invincibility?
  936. [4:23:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hence winning w/o getting him to respawn.
  937. [4:23:41 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: How long does respawn invincibility last
  938. [4:24:15 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "The revived character is invincible the entire time they are on the platform. This may be used to avoid temporary dangers such as an opponent using a Final Smash. In addition, many players utilize the invincibility to plan out their strategy and gather their thoughts. After dropping down from the platform, the character has a further period of invincibility to aid their descent."
  939.  
  940. very useful SSBwiki
  941. [4:24:17 PM] MunomARRio777: a couple seconds
  942. [4:24:19 PM] MunomARRio777: yeah lol
  943. [4:24:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If its "a couple seconds" then US can definitely win.
  944. [4:24:37 PM] MunomARRio777: to kuroganehammer!
  945. [4:24:46 PM] MasterWarlord: Yes respawn invincibility is plenty long enough to win
  946. [4:24:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yeah, agreed.
  947. [4:25:00 PM] MunomARRio777: ...nope, not on kuroganehammer either
  948. [4:25:02 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ...oh, just realized
  949. [4:25:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Heck I think 2 stock respawn invincibility might be enough to win just flatout eating the hunny w/ 5x speed.
  950. [4:25:22 PM] MunomARRio777: is hunny eaten even during hitstun?
  951. [4:25:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): no cool down on Kang's Down Special beyond needing to wait for the first past self to fuck off
  952. [4:25:37 PM] MunomARRio777: or is hunny attached to a move or something?
  953. [4:25:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so I can keep resetting until your past self fucks you over
  954. [4:25:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hunny is eaten passively
  955. [4:25:49 PM] MunomARRio777: ah
  956. [4:25:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): there are inputs I can use to speed it up
  957. [4:25:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But he can speed up hunny eating w/ Jab or NAir
  958. [4:25:58 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): not sure about during hitstun
  959. [4:25:59 PM] MunomARRio777: or dair
  960. [4:26:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *Dair
  961. [4:26:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: woop
  962. [4:26:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: *DAir
  963. [4:26:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well in fairness if I really want to stall I just need to hit Chao nspec over and over for 3m if we're getting that extreme
  964. [4:26:09 PM] MunomARRio777: double (ninja) 'd
  965. [4:26:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well, no Smady
  966. [4:26:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Chao NSpec does not cancel actions.
  967. [4:26:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So US can use his time reverser eventually
  968. [4:26:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: as it would have to leave him out for a minimum of 1 frame.
  969. [4:26:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though then there'd be a problem for me
  970. [4:26:48 PM] MasterWarlord: I didn't use Valozarg Jab when it has the least room to get out of "you are fucking hit". Smady didn't use Illidan bair despite me telling him about it. Lololol
  971.  
  972. And yes Smady absolutely wins if stalling is allowed how is that a discussion
  973. [4:26:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since I can only go back 10 seconds uncharged
  974. [4:27:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and if I hit myself, he becomes hostile
  975. [4:27:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady wins if stalling because Valozarg jab lock tho.
  976. [4:27:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not due to Chao NSpec.
  977. [4:27:25 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also it doesn't matter how far back you go does it US?
  978. [4:27:26 PM] MunomARRio777: jab locks only work three times in sm4sh, if that's what you mean
  979. [4:27:28 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: True, it's all the Valozarg jab with US
  980. [4:27:33 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it doesn't matter if I do it right off, because then my past self poof instantly
  981. [4:27:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No Muno.
  982. [4:27:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): if I do it later in the match, they have 10 seconds to fuck me up
  983. [4:27:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg jab is just a flatout stage widestun.
  984. [4:27:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and my time stop does not stop them
  985. [4:27:51 PM] MunomARRio777: oh
  986. [4:27:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): granted, it's level 6 AI
  987. [4:27:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which with Smady's dupe can combo into itself.
  988. [4:28:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: AKA just stun you forever and ever.
  989. [4:28:06 PM] MunomARRio777: so it's not a jab lock proper, just a lock using jab?
  990. [4:28:12 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I'm not exactly loaded to the gills with attack moves, mind
  991. [4:28:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes @ Muno
  992. [4:28:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): plus that means smady has to deal with his own hostile clone for 6 seconds... after which it becomes allied to him for the remaining 4
  993. [4:28:38 PM] MunomARRio777: [4:27 PM] Twilight Sparkle:
  994.  
  995. <<< jab is just a flatout stage widestun.mymers should be game designers btw, this is jeenius
  996. [4:28:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though odds are it'll be determined before that tidbit
  997. [4:28:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so yeah, N Special, if it works, can actually cause me some issues
  998. [4:29:01 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though again I can try to die off-stage
  999. [4:29:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Nothing last long enough for that to matter @ US, you win before your hostile does anything, don't you?
  1000. [4:29:07 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and if my clone bites it, I do
  1001. [4:29:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since you just stop time AFTER he becomes hostile
  1002. [4:29:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: then win.
  1003. [4:29:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The Valozarg Jab stun, though...
  1004. [4:29:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): my hostile can move during my time stop; it vanishes near immediately in my combo because I used it at match start to go back to match start
  1005. [4:29:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but if I pop it off mid-match, that's an issue
  1006. [4:29:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: In fairness the bair I chose over Illidan's does help a lot in this match up. I can send US back 3 seconds in time to the start of the match and keep comboing him forever easily, and this would be the best thing to do out of nspec
  1007. [4:29:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That's basically the thing that makes it almost impossible to beat.
  1008. [4:30:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yeah, thats true, BAir is a good option.
  1009. [4:30:06 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): though actually, I forget if past me attacks during my time stops
  1010. [4:30:07 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: So what I'd do is jab lock into nspec into bair and then repeat
  1011. [4:30:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): need to check the AI section
  1012. [4:30:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Actual meme Smady.
  1013. [4:30:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: BAir resets the hunny.
  1014. [4:30:38 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Lol, yeah
  1015. [4:30:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Basically, US gets off his insta-win combo, or you win.
  1016. [4:30:49 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: LOL goes out of his way to say the time effects in Teferi affect everything
  1017. [4:30:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I could also do something really risky
  1018. [4:31:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hurl myself into the future, and cross my fingers that my now (much more defensively-minded) past self left behind just stalls like a bitch
  1019. [4:31:17 PM] MasterWarlord: Teferi bair is useless in the MU with your core. You already infinite him, does nothing for respawn
  1020. [4:31:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I can set up in the future where I can't be hit, just shoveling honey into my mouth as fast as I can
  1021. [4:31:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Its to make sure infinites remain infinites even if somehow Valozarg jab stops workinh.
  1022. [4:31:44 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It resets his honey and gets me past any stalling rules
  1023. [4:31:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since your move keeps sending my past self back
  1024. [4:32:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Wait, US.
  1025. [4:32:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): my future self can keep eating honey safely until you KO
  1026. [4:32:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Can you just win in the future lol
  1027. [4:32:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: By eating hunny in the future.
  1028. [4:32:10 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): possibly
  1029. [4:32:12 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's very important if he starts doing the time reversal in the middle of my nspec and I just do that to stop it eventually happening
  1030. [4:32:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: God this is all a mess.
  1031. [4:32:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I didn't consider it before because >Level 6 AI surviving this shit
  1032. [4:32:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: A glorious, glorious mess.
  1033. [4:32:35 PM] MunomARRio777: [2:25 PM] MunomARRio777:
  1034.  
  1035. <<< this is the most MYM thing ever
  1036. [4:32:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but if he stalls and I just keep eating honey in the future...
  1037. [4:32:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and if he kills me, whoop, respawn time
  1038. [4:32:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So we once again come to the Valozarg Jab Lock, essentially.
  1039. [4:32:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which can keep you from going to the future.
  1040. [4:33:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): will it stop my time stop, though?
  1041. [4:33:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You never get to start the time stop, I think.
  1042. [4:33:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As he just jabs you.
  1043. [4:33:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Cause I could conceivably Time Stop and go to the future during Time Stop instead
  1044. [4:33:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: A big deal here as well is if there are any stall rules, I can bypass them easily given the bair and nspec, just rotate moves and throw out out stuff and it's hard to see it being banned by any hard rules that aren't very specific.
  1045. [4:33:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Because his jab's first stun is longer than the jab itself.
  1046. [4:34:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So even if the 1 frame of dupe would somehow let you time stop
  1047. [4:34:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: He just goes Jab -> dupe -> MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA
  1048. [4:34:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, but eventually if he kills me I respawn, right? Or do I never respawn, he just keeps piling damage until time?
  1049. [4:34:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: He just never kills you.
  1050. [4:34:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ...Actually, Smady.
  1051. [4:34:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Hm.
  1052. [4:34:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh
  1053. [4:34:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I just realized a big flaw, technically.
  1054. [4:34:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but he might not get damage on me
  1055. [4:35:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg Jab does no damage.
  1056. [4:35:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): eating honey heals me
  1057. [4:35:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So it would actualle ba 0% vs 0% tie unless you damaged him.
  1058. [4:35:23 PM] MasterWarlord: I suppose after Smady infinites US casually from match start (why is this ever brought into question) he can make duplicate of US to eat honey. The duplicate is fucking stupid is obv the problem but theoretically wins without letting him respawn or stalling.
  1059.  
  1060. There are very obv things that can potentially defeat US', generically bypassing valozarg jab is more memetic.
  1061. [4:35:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which requires not jabbing/bairng/NSpecing.
  1062. [4:35:41 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Eh, I can hit him with something in the middle of the jab locks
  1063. [4:35:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): plus if I get any honey In my tummy, I heal up a little
  1064. [4:35:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Can you do it before he stops time tho, is the question
  1065. [4:35:58 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The duplicate has a slight delay so I can drop the combo for one input
  1066. [4:36:01 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, but can you keep the lock up?
  1067. [4:36:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh, true.
  1068. [4:36:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hmm.
  1069. [4:36:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): time stop gets longer- oh
  1070. [4:36:27 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I suppose after Smady infinites US casually from match start (why is this ever brought into question) he can make duplicate of US to eat honey. The duplicate is fucking stupid is obv the problem but theoretically wins without letting him respawn or stalling.Dangerus because the dupe could be stupid and touch US, kill him and cause him to respawn and win.
  1071. [4:36:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Time Stop builds if I don't use it, and I can potentially stop for 6 seconds.
  1072. [4:36:34 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: True about the duplicate of US eating honey
  1073. [4:36:36 PM] MasterWarlord: I tried to tell you this before when you didn't read. At melee range Valozarg jab does triple stun.
  1074. [4:36:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that is true
  1075. [4:36:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Lol wow
  1076. [4:36:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And 8% damage!
  1077. [4:36:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh, derp
  1078. [4:36:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So if he can slowly approach, he can win.
  1079. [4:36:58 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: So I just do jab at infinite range, then walk up and do triple hitstun
  1080. [4:37:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): possibly, hm
  1081. [4:37:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: My thought was just if he dropped a jab US would use his shit but he probs has enough time to ver, veeeeeeeery slowly approac.
  1082. [4:37:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it's hilarious if that works, since that means you literally win based on a single move
  1083. [4:37:40 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): like, I don't think anyone can respond to that if I can't
  1084. [4:37:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I find it funny that the actual most broken move in these entire movesets is just Valozarg jab.
  1085. [4:37:59 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Honestly if I made a duplicate of US I might just blow it off stage to let it eat the honey there or something to be safe, although I can just put up nairs and other solid barriers, mostly just babysit it, could ever win while US is stun locked
  1086. [4:38:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not some super duper ban/speed/loop/whatever
  1087. [4:38:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just a random jab.
  1088. [4:38:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Do I get my Lizard Up Special off enough to get off stage before you stun me, though?
  1089. [4:38:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg stun does not require you to eb standing
  1090. [4:38:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: on the stage.
  1091. [4:38:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): If I get off stage before the jab stun kicks in, I drop and die, respawn
  1092. [4:38:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): or do I hover in place?
  1093. [4:38:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "Valozarg by Warlord
  1094.  
  1095. Speed: 5
  1096.  
  1097. NEUTRAL ATTACK – HOWL OF TERROR [?IMG]
  1098.  
  1099. Valozarg lets out a massive howl. This causes stun to everyone on-screen, but the stun wears off at the same time as the end lag and the stun decreases as the move stales. The attack is quick to start-up, but has .3 seconds of end lag.
  1100.  
  1101. The main use of this attack early on is to discourage foes from attacking your head. There’s a Wario sized hitbox around Valozarg’s head that deals triple the normal stun and 8%. The stun continues when they hit the ground, so you’ll fully get to utilize it.
  1102.  
  1103. When you have a lot of blood up, this attack become more useful. Sure, you can’t punish the foe’s stun personally due to being in lag yourself, but using this at crucial moments when the foe is about to dodge a Blood Wave or a Blood Elemental is about to collapse onto them can work quite nicely."
  1104. [4:39:17 PM] MasterWarlord: ending lag is reduced. Stun is not.
  1105. [4:39:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also no way you get off the stage fast enough.
  1106. [4:39:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): If I get stunned in air, I drop- I'm asking if I can get somewhere- hm.
  1107. [4:39:48 PM] MasterWarlord: You are not getting off stage before you are hit with this move lol.
  1108. [4:39:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You'd need something faster than anything we have on here I think.
  1109. [4:39:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Here's an idea, Funny can make specifically fat versions of the foe. If I make a fat version of US, does his AI go for the honey more than usual?
  1110. [4:39:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: XD
  1111. [4:40:02 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): how many frames is Lizard Up Special? I know I- pfft
  1112. [4:40:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): well shit, give me a moment
  1113. [4:40:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Barely any frames, but then you need to move off stage.
  1114. [4:40:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg jab keeps you in place.
  1115. [4:40:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And you do not have enough speed to run off before he just uses the jab for fucking sure.
  1116. [4:40:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  1117. [4:40:50 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since the Lizard Neutral Special just adds 1 frame
  1118. [4:41:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so that's not gonna make a difference
  1119. [4:41:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also, Valozarg stun says it keeps stunning if you hit the ground.
  1120. [4:41:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hm.
  1121. [4:41:12 PM] MasterWarlord: generically what changes in your strangeloveless Smady
  1122. [4:41:29 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Just replace Strangelove nair with Teferi nair basically
  1123. [4:41:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): can I get off a Voldemort Up Aerial- no, I'd have to jump
  1124. [4:41:37 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Teferi nair slows down time by half for everyone not you
  1125. [4:41:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: And speeds you up by double
  1126. [4:41:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Man, I even read Teferi too and never idd all this shit.
  1127. [4:41:49 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Obviously this is pretty important
  1128. [4:41:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): what about Lizard's normal kit?
  1129. [4:42:20 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It has a range I think, though I think it might just be anyone outside of your area is nerfed, or anyone period, Broken either way with buffs
  1130. [4:42:26 PM] MasterWarlord: That is the actual best Teferi move goddamn
  1131. [4:42:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lizard's normal kit does nothing.
  1132. [4:42:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Yeah was tempted to replace Strangelove nair with it honestly
  1133. [4:42:47 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's remotely competitive
  1134. [4:42:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: tfw you almost replace Strangelove NAir
  1135. [4:42:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I don't think Strangelove Up Smash will work- if it went off, Valozarg would have to ditch the gun first before pummel
  1136. [4:43:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I love the smell of fresh memes in the morning.
  1137. [4:43:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but I don't think it's fast enough?
  1138. [4:43:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): er, Smady's Lizard
  1139. [4:44:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): on the other hand, my Lizard doesn't need to drop the gun to bolt for the ledge
  1140. [4:44:13 PM] MasterWarlord: If I abandoned neutrality shit I would actually be remotely in on this conversation.
  1141.  
  1142. My Granfaloon build in Strangeloveless can remotely compete with Valozarg jab.
  1143.  
  1144. There is also a version which generically does US' shit of respawn invincibility with Pooh.
  1145. [4:44:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: When I just looked at it at a glance, the Granfaloon stuff actually sounded stronger than the non-Granfaloon kind, so who knows.
  1146. [4:44:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): looking at Strangelove Up Smash, it activates upon release
  1147. [4:44:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): zero lag
  1148. [4:45:13 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Granfaloon was pretty insane yeah, it's how many Falcons
  1149. [4:45:15 PM] MasterWarlord: It's usable once per stock essentially and you are also holding a gun
  1150. [4:45:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I could conceivably stick Smady with a gun he'd have to ditch before he could input the jab
  1151. [4:45:28 PM] MasterWarlord: useless
  1152. [4:45:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I don't have to ditch the gun before trying to rush off stage
  1153. [4:45:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hmmmm.
  1154. [4:45:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): he does
  1155. [4:45:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That IS interesting.
  1156. [4:46:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The key thing I am thinking is US does not need to ditch gun for his combo until the grab.
  1157. [4:46:08 PM] MasterWarlord: Oh wait, Strangelove gun just prevents you from using A moves. All copied moves are through neutral B. Literally does nothing.
  1158. [4:46:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh.
  1159. [4:46:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yep.
  1160. [4:46:15 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: WL's right.
  1161. [4:46:17 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Good point
  1162. [4:46:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I forgot that.
  1163. [4:46:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but he'd have to input A after- hm
  1164. [4:46:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): actually, another thing
  1165. [4:46:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it has an animation to pull the gun out for opponents
  1166. [4:46:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I get my as part of charge
  1167. [4:46:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *get my gun as
  1168. [4:47:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Wait, Warlord.
  1169. [4:47:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so with max speed I can move before they finish the animation
  1170. [4:47:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Here's an actual meme question.
  1171. [4:47:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The gun is done via nSpec too.
  1172. [4:47:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Can people just infinite by making everyone pull out infinite guns?
  1173. [4:47:29 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ...
  1174. [4:47:32 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Lol
  1175. [4:47:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: As being on NSpec means it doesn'r block the A input to pull out more guns.
  1176. [4:47:44 PM] MasterWarlord: Even if that works SL usmash has long cooldown
  1177. [4:47:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that is meme, but given the material
  1178. [4:47:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I mean, maybe, but even so
  1179. [4:47:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: its amazing to imagine.
  1180. [4:48:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Everyone is too busy pulling out guns to actually fight, sounds like an actual Strangelove scene lol
  1181. [4:48:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but yes, I want to know if the animation of the opponent pulling the gun (when I get mine as part of the charge and am free to move immediately) would be enough time
  1182. [4:48:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Does it state how long it takes?
  1183. [4:48:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): to do, well anything
  1184. [4:48:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): nope
  1185. [4:49:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Up Smash - Arms Race )) Strangelove pulls an intimidating gun out of his jacket as he charges, and once he releases, every character in the match pulls out a gun of their own. Yeah, even if items are off. The guns are the size of a Cracker Launcher and can be fired similarly to a Ray Gun, forming shots with identical speed and range. They can be thrown away just like a Cracker Launcher but will not be hitboxes when thrown. All guns will disappear after fifteen seconds, and Strangelove is unable to use this again during this period.
  1186.  
  1187. Three to seven shots may be fired from each gun depending on charging time. C-Sticked each shot deals 5%, but fully charged each does 8%. The knockback is more diagonal than a Ray Gun, preventing infinites like with a real Ray Gun.
  1188.  
  1189. You might think this is near useless since your opponent gets every buff you do... but this is actually rather useful to Strangelove. You see, the opponent must fire carefully for fear of activating the Doomsday Device via a chain reaction, but Strangelove doesn't need to: he might even structure his bombs such that he can camp properly with this for a potentially epic damage dealer! If you want to bother with damage, that is.
  1190. [4:49:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Aw.
  1191. [4:49:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No infinites.
  1192. [4:49:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm sad.
  1193. [4:49:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm, and frustratingly, no mention of time it takes
  1194. [4:50:16 PM] MasterWarlord: I got a remote idea to kill Smady with just Atlantis moves I am going to write now
  1195. [4:50:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh lol, because they don't get Jab Locked?
  1196. [4:50:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Chao NSpec, GG.
  1197. [4:50:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): lemme look up Rocket Grunt
  1198. [4:50:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I wonder if K.Rool was meme enough not to put a timer on any of the lingering effects
  1199. [4:51:13 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: probably
  1200. [4:51:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): maybe force a draw by putting shit between me and smady that will damage him if he approaches
  1201. [4:51:23 PM] MasterWarlord: Well the main argument is if the guys are already out they won't be vanished upon use of Neutral B.
  1202. [4:51:29 PM] MasterWarlord: just lizard.
  1203. [4:51:33 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: You could just make them vanish too
  1204. [4:51:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ^
  1205. [4:51:40 PM] MasterWarlord: they're invincible
  1206. [4:51:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also it doesn't matter even if they don't.
  1207. [4:52:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You can't give them inputs while vanished, presumably, you instantly die when you come back to dupes
  1208. [4:52:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: and Smady can make infinite stocks.
  1209. [4:52:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Like think of it like this, lets assume you kill him with the Atlantis chojin and you're spirited away.
  1210. [4:53:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: he uses USpec twice while respawn and kills you.
  1211. [4:53:02 PM] MasterWarlord: Well I'll cut to the most direct argument of saying fuck it to the valozarg jab. The melee bonus hitbox works against him. Black Hole dsmash counters melee hitboxes and spawns next to Smady on ground. He has to be on ground to use the jab. If it hits Smady is grabbed and loses.
  1212. [4:53:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: He now has gained one stock.
  1213. [4:53:06 PM] MunomARRio777: posted a "best of lizard challenge" compilation in main chat
  1214. [4:53:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: DM's wording is it deletes you from game for 10 seconds, so there'd be no inputs while you're away
  1215. [4:53:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So you literally cause him to gain more stocks by killing him.
  1216. [4:53:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): forward smash is stated to be a 'little laggy', so it won't work unfortunately- shame, because it's said to hit multiple times, so that'd be my opening. Now to check Grimer.
  1217. [4:54:11 PM] MasterWarlord: Counter valozarg jab and grab him with Atlantis dsmash, get in Illidan bair for blatant stock ignoring win.
  1218. [4:54:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): no timer on Grimer stage effects given
  1219. [4:54:46 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Chao NSpec just owns you though.
  1220. [4:54:56 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I can shoot one out, and they do enough damage that you can't inch up to me through them and get the damage lead
  1221. [4:55:14 PM] MasterWarlord: Chao NSpec not fast enough to be definitive. Valozarg Jab the best move in this challenge atm.
  1222. [4:55:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ...wait, shit, no damage over time mentioned- but Up Tilt DOES give you a poison counter every second
  1223. [4:55:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Fine, literally stops time and Chao NSpecs you
  1224. [4:55:36 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and those are instant kill once you get enough
  1225. [4:55:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: how's that.
  1226. [4:55:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I could honestly see my set get in even dsmash during jab with duplicate there
  1227. [4:56:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Honestly that too possibly.
  1228. [4:56:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: its lag is not stated and I assume it's still fast
  1229. [4:56:12 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): My Up Tilt might save my ass here
  1230. [4:56:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And he has FAir/F-Smash.
  1231. [4:56:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since you'd have to inch your way through it to get at me, and it'll eventually kill you right off
  1232. [4:56:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: To just generically interrupt you consistantly w/ no lag.
  1233. [4:56:46 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ...no, wait, that's the one effect with a proper timer
  1234. [4:56:51 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Ofc
  1235. [4:57:02 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it IS 1.5 platforms across and one high, though
  1236. [4:57:10 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so you'd presumably have to move out of it
  1237. [4:57:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg Jab is merely the tip of the iceburg of bullshit.
  1238. [4:57:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The jab is the core, more than I thought. I was more inclined to get rid of Chao or Funny's move than that.
  1239. [4:57:52 PM] MunomARRio777: I feel very outclassed here lol
  1240. [4:57:58 PM] MasterWarlord: Everything is "BS". We only care what happens on literal game start.
  1241. [4:58:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: A little, Muno, you merely become invincible.
  1242. [4:58:17 PM] MunomARRio777: heh
  1243. [4:58:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If we're talking game start WL
  1244. [4:58:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): dash attack (though how so you use a Dash Attack here?) has platform of range, is grab hitbox, and pulls you close
  1245. [4:58:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady stops time and Chao NSpecs your Atlantis.
  1246. [4:58:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: KO/infinite from there.
  1247. [4:58:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): don't think I can get into a run before that, though
  1248. [4:59:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: FAir/F-Smash interrupts you from absurd range with a lagless move.
  1249. [4:59:07 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Forward Tilt can force you to break infinite, though
  1250. [4:59:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Dsmash/nspec infinite could be a thing too on top of the jab
  1251. [4:59:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Up Smash is also a thing for me
  1252. [4:59:22 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Dsmash has I think 5 second cooldown, nspec deletes you for 10
  1253. [4:59:25 PM] MasterWarlord: Teferi dsmash I care a lot more about than the dupe. Generically not saying lag is a thing but it is mostly relevant in this specific discussion for stopping the invulnerable ghosts
  1254. [4:59:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I've got two options that MIGHT work, but are vague enough I can't say for certain
  1255. [5:00:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I have to spawn close enough to Smady for Forward Tilt, though, or close enough to a ledge with Up Smash
  1256. [5:01:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Spawn location is very important for these.
  1257. [5:01:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I think Up Smash might have a leg to stand on as an interrupt, here
  1258. [5:01:53 PM] MasterWarlord: In the Granfaloon case, if it generically hits before Valozarg jab is abstract as fuck to determine. Both screen filling very fast hitboxes. if it does, then I don't think Smady can do much as I keep him locked on respawn platform unable to move with being solid as I do nothing but spam the move. He can't use valo jab because he's not on ground. The chao N Spec can't be aimed properly. He can get more stocks with Shedinja I guess.
  1259. [5:02:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If you're solid blocking it then how can Chao NSpec miss?
  1260. [5:02:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it's not stun, but them pulling out the guns is not part of my own animation; they could well be moving at default (still fast admittedly) speed for that
  1261. [5:02:33 PM] MasterWarlord: Not my hurtbox I am not Granfaloon
  1262. [5:02:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just Chao NSPec and go from there.
  1263. [5:02:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also WL.
  1264. [5:02:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I could well gtfo before jab happens and I die
  1265. [5:03:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: What if he just uses USpec twice?
  1266. [5:03:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And gains a tock every time this happens.
  1267. [5:03:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Win by time.
  1268. [5:03:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the fact it's technically Lizard's Neutral Special is pretty painful, though
  1269. [5:03:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): if it was still blocked by the gun, I'd be a lot safer
  1270. [5:03:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): as is, it's really iffy
  1271. [5:04:16 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If this is Strangelove-less too, the Teferi nair will slow foe down to 1/2 and speed him up by 1/2, so he can technically make twice as many stocks with up special a second
  1272. [5:04:20 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: 20 frames per stock
  1273. [5:04:20 PM] MunomARRio777: [5:03 PM] Twilight Sparkle:
  1274.  
  1275. <<< And gains a tock every time this happens.does he gain a tick tho?
  1276. [5:04:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: maybe
  1277. [5:04:32 PM] MasterWarlord: I have the voodoo Atlantis usmash to hit through invincibility. It is slow but Shedinja move is very slow too.
  1278. [5:04:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Honestly I could just jump off stage if it's that meme and spam nair and up special
  1279. [5:05:06 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Then when I come back with however many stocks I abuse respawn, if that doesn't work I just do the same to win via time
  1280. [5:05:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Atlantis U-Smash hits throuhg invincibility??
  1281. [5:05:13 PM] MasterWarlord: You can't move, but yes, I was waiting for nair to be brought up.
  1282. [5:05:40 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Forward Smash having any lag at all is kind of piss in this case, because I could easily force Smady to chose one of moving/shielding/getting hit and thus losing his infinite if I could get it off
  1283. [5:05:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also I mentioned this earlier but Atlantis ghosts really shouldn't be usable during hitstun, not as in for the challenge, but as in you should edit it out for the moveset.
  1284. [5:06:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Even when it's a boss?
  1285. [5:06:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes.
  1286. [5:06:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I thought it was just that they don't get hit out of it.
  1287. [5:06:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not that you can literally just command them during hitstun.
  1288. [5:06:57 PM] MasterWarlord: "If the stars of any of the devil chojin are hit, they take hitstun and poof out of existence until they are resummoned. The devil chojin are invulnerable to absolutely everything else, so it is a very reasonable assumption that the "voodoo hitbox" of this move will hit through invincibility."
  1289.  
  1290. Better logic than a good portion of the stuff we're claiming goes through it
  1291. [5:07:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: With some of the stuff they can do, commanding them during hitstun can be absurd.
  1292. [5:07:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The invincibility thing is also kind of dumb in the actual moveset lol.
  1293. [5:07:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): [5:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle:
  1294.  
  1295. <<< Also I mentioned this earlier but Atlantis ghosts really shouldn't be usable during hitstun, not as in for the challenge, but as in you should edit it out for the moveset.(quietly goes to edit Jodie 2.0 wip)
  1296. [5:07:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (though in her case it's all stuff you have to have planted in advance and it has other issues, so)
  1297. [5:08:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (it's all stationary, too)
  1298. [5:08:31 PM] MasterWarlord: He is still regular character without stun resistance. I think most of your bosses are very UP.
  1299. [5:08:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (I'd need to see it. For me to be specific, Atlantis' Down Smash being usable during hitstun seems tremendously meme in the moveset, or Up Smash/The Black Hole sucky move)
  1300. [5:08:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, but I do not think most of my bosses are very UP
  1301. [5:08:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: so obv I am not judging the boss balance on the same level as you lol
  1302. [5:09:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Tutankoopa's UP I'd say tho, but not absurdly so)
  1303. [5:09:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so we're pretty much just waiting for FA to come back now?
  1304. [5:09:23 PM] MasterWarlord: basically.
  1305. [5:09:25 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Cause we're kind of at an impasse with our arguments, it seems
  1306. [5:09:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I mean, Smady still seems like he's got the edge
  1307. [5:09:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I think I could have something with Strangelove's Up Smash and Zubat's Ftilt, especially if I can get off Zubat's FSmash during the opening
  1308. [5:09:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: since you've got an iffy case to beat his stuff.
  1309. [5:10:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But yes if that does work, then that's possible.
  1310. [5:10:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, but if I do, I think I come out ahead
  1311. [5:10:32 PM] MasterWarlord: The main thing I would argue is regardless of the direct MU which is getting a bit abstract, US's could be more definitively beaten with a correct combination of the moves here than Smady's
  1312. [5:10:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Hmmm, maybe.
  1313. [5:10:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: We're basically arguing direct MU because they both beat everything else so much lol
  1314. [5:11:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I do wonder though why not just do fair/fsmash at the ftilt/up smash/fsmash?
  1315. [5:11:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gucKqwgsyHY
  1316.  
  1317. While we wait, let us enjoy one of the best JoJo fights.
  1318. [5:11:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, but I'm pretty sure my set only needs to worry about things of Valozarg's Jab's caliber at this point; if I have an out for that, there's not a whole hell of a lot that can stop me
  1319. [5:11:54 PM] MasterWarlord: It is a thing that Valo Jab + Illidan bair kills US basically by itself
  1320. [5:12:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): pfft re: Jojo
  1321. [5:12:19 PM] MasterWarlord: throw in an actual KO move like funny's
  1322. [5:12:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Only some of the Illidan BAirs work, don't they?
  1323. [5:12:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but nobody had both, iirc? We're going by what we've got, not what would be better
  1324. [5:13:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Oh, right
  1325. [5:13:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It also denies.
  1326. [5:13:11 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Basically at this point, I'm imagining many of the infinites in the set and heavy abuse of bair to avoid any stalling rules you could possibly work
  1327. [5:13:24 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Tho it requires a quick kill and is of average lag, not unusable tho.
  1328. [5:13:32 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But even thats just due to Valo jab than Illidan BAir.
  1329. [5:13:35 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: You'd effectively have to ban the set itself with the amount of infinite you can do
  1330. [5:13:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Because US' point was "can I beat the Valo jab, if so what stops me".
  1331. [5:14:10 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): If USmash works, I escape and get my combo during invulnerability, if Ftilt works, you have to drop your combo or die, and either way I get my combo
  1332. [5:14:16 PM] MasterWarlord: I have said a thousand times you use it out of a combo which Valo jab provide. All Valo jab is missing is killing respawn invincibility. Literally it.
  1333. [5:14:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: can I beat the Valo jabyou seem to be missing my point
  1334. [5:14:45 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: In that he thinks he can escape Valo job.
  1335. [5:14:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: *jab
  1336. [5:14:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which would invalidate the "use it out of combo" point lol.
  1337. [5:15:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I've said a thousand times that my 'combo' requires all of two successful inputs, without needing to move once it's up.
  1338. [5:15:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But I do agree with Smady in the FAir/F-Smash Shedinja part.
  1339. [5:15:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): *at any point of it
  1340. [5:15:28 PM] MasterWarlord: Does the Kang Up B work now?
  1341. [5:15:33 PM] MasterWarlord: Why is it 2 moves
  1342. [5:15:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Grab, then Up B
  1343. [5:15:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Yeah, the fair/fsmash is one of the best counters to lots of things
  1344. [5:15:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Side Special has no hitbox
  1345. [5:15:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Honey has no hitbox
  1346. [5:16:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (And thus don't break it)
  1347. [5:16:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the one thing after getting my illusions up that has a hitbox is FSmash
  1348. [5:16:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and when I use that, all my honey-eating copies instantly become real and I win
  1349. [5:16:41 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If we're talking about my set, the fair/fsmash still cancel moves with no hitboxes, it just cancels any move being performed period.
  1350. [5:16:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No, he does those during time stop
  1351. [5:16:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): So Down Special (resets and makes hostile clone of you), grab my clone and jab once, Up Special, you sit and watch me do my combo and you'll damn well like it
  1352. [5:17:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: actual issue is FAir/F-Smash stopping Up Smash or time reset.
  1353. [5:17:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: When US tries to escape Valo combo.
  1354. [5:17:16 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Ah yeah, does the time stop have any lag?
  1355. [5:17:19 PM] MasterWarlord: Shedinja move "The beam's range is 1/2 to 2 SBB based on charge."
  1356. [5:17:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It feels like US can win, but US more consistantly wins?
  1357. [5:17:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Not that I know of
  1358. [5:17:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: er
  1359. [5:17:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: 8but Smady
  1360. [5:17:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Like a 65/35 or 70/30 maybe?
  1361. [5:17:41 PM] MasterWarlord: How are you getting to him to use this move
  1362. [5:17:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It has 5x Range boost.
  1363. [5:17:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Meaning it has 3x the total range, IIRC.
  1364. [5:18:00 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: That basically
  1365. [5:18:05 PM] MasterWarlord: so 2.5 SBBs if it's lagless
  1366. [5:18:10 PM] MasterWarlord: that is not nearly enough
  1367. [5:18:15 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's not hard to get in close with the jab
  1368. [5:18:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Ah, but Smady
  1369. [5:18:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US' point is breaking through the jab.
  1370. [5:18:23 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): when up against Smady's lizard, I want to get out of the infinite/prevent it long enough to die, then I can do my thing from mercy invulnerability
  1371. [5:18:28 PM] MasterWarlord: Yeah where was this proposal of getting out of the jab
  1372. [5:18:37 PM] MasterWarlord: That I was too busy arguing with Roy to read
  1373. [5:18:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Strangelove Up Smash and Zubat Ftilt are two possible ones
  1374. [5:18:59 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If you do those though I just do lagless fair/fsmash to cancel them during their existent lag
  1375. [5:19:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): the former has no lag at all for me, while my opponents have the animation of pulling out the gun (I just get mine during charge because why not apparently), I use that to die
  1376. [5:19:46 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Is up smash actually lagless?
  1377. [5:20:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Up Smash - Arms Race )) Strangelove pulls an intimidating gun out of his jacket as he charges, and once he releases, every character in the match pulls out a gun of their own. Yeah, even if items are off. The guns are the size of a Cracker Launcher and can be fired similarly to a Ray Gun, forming shots with identical speed and range. They can be thrown away just like a Cracker Launcher but will not be hitboxes when thrown. All guns will disappear after fifteen seconds, and Strangelove is unable to use this again during this period.
  1378.  
  1379. Three to seven shots may be fired from each gun depending on charging time. C-Sticked each shot deals 5%, but fully charged each does 8%. The knockback is more diagonal than a Ray Gun, preventing infinites like with a real Ray Gun.
  1380.  
  1381. You might think this is near useless since your opponent gets every buff you do... but this is actually rather useful to Strangelove. You see, the opponent must fire carefully for fear of activating the Doomsday Device via a chain reaction, but Strangelove doesn't need to: he might even structure his bombs such that he can camp properly with this for a potentially epic damage dealer! If you want to bother with damage, that is.
  1382. [5:20:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Zubat Ftilt creates an area of poison gas 1.5 platforms out and one tall, and you get counters that build towards an instant stock loss while in it
  1383. [5:20:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Yup, I already have my gun at the end of the charge
  1384. [5:20:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): my OPPONENTS are doing an animation at the end instead
  1385. [5:20:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Reminder to everyone that Strangelove Top 5'd.
  1386. [5:21:01 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Imagine if Strangelove won.
  1387. [5:21:17 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Does it not state lag
  1388. [5:21:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): granted, the animation sounds fast
  1389. [5:21:24 PM] MasterWarlord: Reading Zubat ftilt I am not seeing how it is useful and it does not create poison gas, did you mean another move
  1390. [5:21:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (for my opponents)
  1391. [5:21:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ofc it does not state lag
  1392. [5:21:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): er, up tilt, sorry
  1393. [5:21:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: this was MYM7.
  1394. [5:21:34 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Oh ofc
  1395. [5:21:36 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lag is a useless stat.
  1396. [5:21:39 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: lol
  1397. [5:21:42 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Priority though...
  1398. [5:21:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Zubat Up Tilt; my mistake
  1399. [5:21:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: That's where it is at.
  1400. [5:21:51 PM] MasterWarlord: Not stating lag is slower than valo jab
  1401. [5:22:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If it doesn't state lag, seems unfair to assume it's on par with stated to be lagless
  1402. [5:22:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hm
  1403. [5:22:34 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's full screen but I can probably get within 1.5 SBBs before it can go off
  1404. [5:22:38 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It sounds fast but I do agree that with how lagless Valo jab sounds it is iffy.
  1405. [5:23:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I don't have to charge the move, and even if so, your Lizard would drop what it was doing and perform the animation the moment I release the input
  1406. [5:23:06 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Also a question, if I interrupt it does that count as its use or does it have to finish
  1407. [5:23:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I asusme it has to finish.
  1408. [5:23:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it's a question of my ending lag more than the jab's start up
  1409. [5:23:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Since thats how it usually works with these moves.
  1410. [5:23:22 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The problem is you have to go through the full animation, what Roy said
  1411. [5:23:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I don't have an animation
  1412. [5:23:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: In terms of "counting for its use".
  1413. [5:23:38 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: You have start lag before the charge
  1414. [5:23:40 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I already have ,my gun out
  1415. [5:23:51 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: You have to pull out gun in start lag of some kind, it's not lagless
  1416. [5:23:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I've never seen a smash with lag before the charge?
  1417. [5:23:57 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: He doesn't just have a gun instantly
  1418. [5:24:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it's strangelove
  1419. [5:24:03 PM] MasterWarlord: What happened to being able to use Neutral B and thus everything while holding an item (SL gun)
  1420. [5:24:11 PM] MasterWarlord: And utilt isn't useful either on Zubat
  1421. [5:24:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: His point is Smady
  1422. [5:24:16 PM] MasterWarlord: what move are you talking about
  1423. [5:24:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Strangelove pulling out his gun is the charge.
  1424. [5:24:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): he's stated to 'get it during the charge'
  1425. [5:24:30 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The starting lag/animation is everyone ELSe pulling out their guns.
  1426. [5:24:30 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): -
  1427. [5:24:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): oh goddamn it I'm sorry MW
  1428. [5:24:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): up tilt on Grimer
  1429. [5:24:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): fucking hell
  1430. [5:24:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): lemme paste it
  1431. [5:25:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Up Tilt
  1432. Poison Gas - From the corners of Grimer's mouth, greenish gas briefly seeps, before he turns his head up and spews a full-out cloud into the air; this is slightly laggy. It's about the size of 1.5 platforms across and one platform high, and lasts for eight seconds before dissipating. Even the slightest contact with the cloud will deal out a poison affliction (two if Houndour's Scarmaker is in effect), and you can waft the cloud around the stage freely with Zubat; if the foe is engulfed, they're dealt a poison affliction every second. The holy grail of Grimer/Zubat is to cover the ground with sticky traps, then waft a poison cloud to overlap the foe. They can't escape quickly enough to prevent the cloud and traps from racking up the poison afflictions at a maniacal rate.
  1433.  
  1434. This attack also sort of obstructs visibility, which Zubat will appreciate as he flies about and projects sonic copies of traps and characters. Just a little added note.​
  1435. [5:25:25 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): this one relies on Smady being in range, though
  1436. [5:25:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and shit, just noticed it said laggy
  1437. [5:25:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yeah.
  1438. [5:25:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so that one does nothing for me
  1439. [5:25:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: "Strangelove pulls an intimidating gun out of his jacket as he charges, and once he releases, every character in the match pulls out a gun of their own." This implies that Strangelove has to pull out his gun first for his own start lag first, IDK where you're getting the bit about everyone else having start lag
  1440. [5:25:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Smady beats that.
  1441. [5:25:52 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and nope, 'as he charges'
  1442. [5:26:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I can literally just tap the input and then there's no animation for him
  1443. [5:26:19 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well there is lag before a charge too you know
  1444. [5:26:26 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's split before and after
  1445. [5:26:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think the actual meme here is that Strangelove has a move where everyone else has the starting lag at all.
  1446. [5:26:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I keep hearing that and I've never had experienced lag before the charge state when playing a smash game
  1447. [5:26:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: So you can have very laggy smashes for start up, but go right to the attack after charge
  1448. [5:26:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Smashes don't go to charging immediately
  1449. [5:27:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: For example Dedede fsmash has a fairly long wind up
  1450. [5:27:14 PM] MunomARRio777: mhm
  1451. [5:27:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): [4:49 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke):
  1452.  
  1453. <<< and once he releases, every character in the match pulls out a gun of their own.
  1454. [5:27:35 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): that's where I say everyone else has lag
  1455. [5:27:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I'll concede then that smashes can have lag before charge
  1456. [5:28:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but the animation of pulling the gun is explicitly 'during the charge'
  1457. [5:28:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): er, *where everyone else has an animation
  1458. [5:28:20 PM] MunomARRio777: "as he charges" is incredibly vague
  1459. [5:28:23 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well there's going to be lag before the charge, pretty sure every charge has some
  1460. [5:28:25 PM] MasterWarlord: You can use specials while holding ray guns. Neutral B which means all copied lizard moves. And this move is one time use.
  1461. [5:28:30 PM] MunomARRio777: [5:28 PM] Twilight Sparkle:
  1462.  
  1463. <<< I think the actual meme here is that Strangelove has a move where everyone else has the starting lag at all.very true
  1464. [5:28:31 PM] MasterWarlord: When did this get disproven
  1465. [5:28:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): MW
  1466. [5:28:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): It fucking interrupts and puts them in an animation
  1467. [5:28:50 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: His point is just to use the "lag" of taking out the gun to die
  1468. [5:28:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: so he can respawn.
  1469. [5:28:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I've said that twenty times as my arguement
  1470. [5:28:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Not even block any moves.
  1471. [5:28:58 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): nothing to do with the N Special
  1472. [5:29:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't think he can do it fast enough, tho.
  1473. [5:29:06 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): er, with blocking
  1474. [5:29:08 PM] MunomARRio777: is it stated to interrupt animations?
  1475. [5:29:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yes
  1476. [5:29:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): they yank out their own guns
  1477. [5:29:22 PM] MunomARRio777: obtaining items doesn't inherently interrupt move animations
  1478. [5:29:33 PM] MunomARRio777: for example, catching an item with an aerial / picking something up with a dash attack
  1479. [5:29:39 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It doesn't directly state it interrupts animations
  1480. [5:29:39 PM] MasterWarlord: Assuming it hits before valo jab, he uses it after holding onto the gun without any kind of lag because he doesn't have to throw it away.
  1481. [5:29:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: It interrupts the Valo "animation".
  1482. [5:30:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: With the taking out the gun animation.
  1483. [5:30:09 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But US can't do enough with that time to win so I don't think it matters.
  1484. [5:30:12 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I try to escape during the animation
  1485. [5:30:13 PM] MasterWarlord: once. And then we're back to square one and valo jabs.
  1486. [5:30:18 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yeah, I agree.
  1487. [5:30:22 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm just saying that's the idea.
  1488. [5:30:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: After this contest we need a new Top 13/26 so we can have Teferi, Strangelove and Beeheyem on there.
  1489. [5:30:52 PM] MunomARRio777: Strangelove isn't on the current top 13?
  1490. [5:31:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: He is, I think.
  1491. [5:31:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'd be less cross if you were actually arguing against my idea there before right at the end, instead of ignoring what I was saying while saying it didn't work up to the point where it was straightened out
  1492. [5:31:05 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But I don't know if he was #1.
  1493. [5:31:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: For worst sets.
  1494. [5:31:10 PM | Edited 5:31:32 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It's incredibly vague if this even has lag on the person "taking out the gun" and how much lag there is before he gets to the charge part. We're assuming 1) there is no lag before the charge or very little, when there is no reason to think this, 2) it interrupts animations and doesn't just equip you with the gun and 3) the lag on taking out the gun for the foe is big enough to matter.
  1495. [5:31:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yes, it's unlikely I can escape in that time
  1496. [5:31:38 PM] MasterWarlord: This chat is going kind of fucking fast plenty of times we don't catch what each other are saying
  1497. [5:32:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I argue it interrupts because that's basically what everyone who was talking about the move ever said it did
  1498. [5:32:09 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but fine, I'll concede that
  1499. [5:32:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I basicall agree it interrupts but I just don't think it actually matters for this scenario.
  1500. [5:32:55 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The main thing I feel is bad for it is there is bound to be some lag of taking out before you can release the charge
  1501. [5:32:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and that's true, but it gets annoying when I'm arguing against a topic I'm not even saying
  1502. [5:33:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and fair, re: Smady/agreed re: Froy
  1503. [5:33:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If anything the lag would be front loaded because taking out the gun is all he does for that move, but this is Wizzerd, who knows what he intended. I never really thought about this move this much before lol
  1504. [5:33:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): kind of sucks all this just boils down to 'jab with Valozarg'.
  1505. [5:34:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Its not too surprising, since the only way to really beat your set is to stun it/win before it.
  1506. [5:34:08 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It was bound to boil down to something like this
  1507. [5:34:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And ultimately the easiest way to win is eternal stuns with no lag.
  1508. [5:34:29 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): True, but it's still disappointing that it wasn't, like, your use of Funny or the other combos
  1509. [5:34:32 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: There were a lot of interesting ideas outside of sheer numbers
  1510. [5:34:37 PM] MasterWarlord: Yes I agree it interrupts moves. You have a very small frame advantage because you pull out your gun during the charge. This might be relevant if you also had another lagless stunner like valo jab. Your plan is too long, it gives him very very little stun since he doesn't need to throw away gun.
  1511. [5:35:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): bit late on the draw there, but yes, that's basically what it boils down to
  1512. [5:35:54 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I did like how we all came up with our own ideas that are all incredibly OP.
  1513. [5:35:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And pretty different.
  1514. [5:36:00 PM] MasterWarlord: Blame speed X5
  1515. [5:36:06 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and yeah, I'll admit part of this is I'm salty because last minute I got my hopes up about having an actual chance out of nowhere- I don't mind losing by a landslide, it's a silver medal that sucks donkey balls
  1516. [5:36:24 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Agreed @ Roy and Warlord
  1517. [5:36:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): also true
  1518. [5:36:35 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Your idea is really great
  1519. [5:36:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I was trying to think of something with honey and time travel but didn't think of those sets.
  1520. [5:36:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): in hindsight just a random stun lock being the end all be all was pretty inevitable
  1521. [5:36:59 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): thanks man
  1522. [5:37:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I think US would win more easily without 5x speed ofc.
  1523. [5:37:09 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Yeah, I just found the most broken one
  1524. [5:37:12 PM] MasterWarlord: I said many times to FA privately this challenge would be less memetic without speed buff. Measuring speed is difficult enough without saying everything is triple speed.
  1525. [5:37:23 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: This is pretty tru lol
  1526. [5:37:25 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): nah, then my time stop takes forever and I can't do shit during it, re: speed buff
  1527. [5:37:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  1528. [5:37:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The one line that makes Valo jab so broken is that it directly goes into detail about the stun and how the end lag/staling works, so there's no room for it to not infinite
  1529. [5:37:47 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The speed buff doesn't matter as much for me as my speed is about relative speed in the end.
  1530. [5:38:25 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Basically, "Valo's jab would infinite with shorter end lag. Oh look, it has 3x shorter end lag." It's broken as fuck.
  1531. [5:38:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I have to refresh my honey pot periodically, too, so I can't just Neutral Special and spam Up Smash- the only reason it's not a problem with the clones is they each get their own jar and it puts me over before they empty
  1532. [5:38:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  1533. [5:38:45 PM] MasterWarlord: Without speed buff my best move would be the Granfaloon one
  1534. [5:38:57 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Basically, "Valo's jab would infinite with shorter end lag. Oh look, it has 3x shorter end lag." It's broken as fuck.Yeah the fact it is so direct about it helps.
  1535. [5:39:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Impossible to be like "no it doesn't work that way".
  1536. [5:39:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and honestly, it's my own damn fault because I LOOKED at Valozarg and forgot the jab after all these years. I was looking because I remembered the blood corruption thing might be an instant win outside of stocks and that had me worried
  1537. [5:39:35 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I really love the pot and time travel and Zubat eating honey lol, it's honestly amazing and one of the best things I've read from this. I also have to give credit to the Granfaloon stuff, using DarkMega and trying to counter the respawn platform so directly that I probably should've used in hindsight
  1538. [5:39:41 PM] MunomARRio777: meanwhile my jab is ZSS's lol
  1539. [5:39:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I really should have just nabbed it and then I'd have a 50/50 match up at worst
  1540. [5:39:56 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I had to look over Valo a few times to realise the potential of jab myself
  1541. [5:40:03 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I also was looking for corruption abuse
  1542. [5:40:05 PM] MasterWarlord: I fucking used Valozarg jab in challenges other than main and Strangeloveless.
  1543. [5:40:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I never looked at Valozarg because my one only had about 1 day's worth of work, I did other stuff instead.
  1544. [5:40:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Yeah, DarkMega was actually another set I just glossed over while missing that important bit- in this case because I already had the Specials set by then
  1545. [5:40:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Also yes WL's got the real meme in terms of using it but not for the main when it turns out to be the most broken move.
  1546. [5:40:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I missed Shedinja's fucking USpec so.
  1547. [5:40:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which would be amazing in my set
  1548. [5:40:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Literally just make the foe unable to do anything and gain infinite lives.
  1549. [5:40:53 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It is great how different theese all work too
  1550. [5:41:03 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, we came up with pretty clever shit
  1551. [5:41:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: BTW
  1552. [5:41:10 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: They all fit kind of big playstyle archetypes in a way
  1553. [5:41:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: my first moveset was pretty amusing too.
  1554. [5:41:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Which was to make enemies unable to damage anything, then just use Demyx insta-kill.
  1555. [5:41:36 PM] MasterWarlord: US's build might be unstoppable if it generically had memeozarg jab.
  1556. [5:41:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Warlord just instagibbing you and moving faster than is possible to even control is pretty direct and to the point.
  1557. [5:41:53 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Whereas I was the Control Lizard.
  1558. [5:42:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The closest I came to using my own set is Raiden. It randomly has lagless moves everywhere and down special makes you invincible for 3 seconds, but gives you a gimped set. Nothing else I ever made was remotely useful.
  1559. [5:42:22 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yeah, since the AI 'plays super defensively' when I leave my past self to its own devices- I could go to the future while it spams that and just gorge myself on honey while everyone is stunlocked
  1560. [5:42:34 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: If we were allowed to do meme sets I'd use W&K2 to murder the enemy player though
  1561. [5:42:43 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): heh, my sets were disappointingly useless, too
  1562. [5:43:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Jodie and Colonel of all sets, hilariously, were the ones I considered, but had to drop
  1563. [5:43:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Demyx was potentially useful but not useful in the end.
  1564. [5:43:20 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Colonel's cape to get lagless inputs, doesn't work because I have to Neutral Special into the input proper
  1565. [5:43:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The other things I wanted o do were
  1566. [5:43:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Underwood to win 2v2 Lizard by turning all other Lizards to my side
  1567. [5:43:45 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Jodie to get her mechanic, which would literally cut my lag on everything in half, but FA ruled against it
  1568. [5:43:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Sarkhan Vl to instantly turn the foe into Charizard.
  1569. [5:43:58 PM] MasterWarlord: That was one of the first moves I thought of
  1570. [5:44:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Thinking on it
  1571. [5:44:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: There's the actual unbeatable combo.
  1572. [5:44:29 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valo Jab + Teferi Dupe + Sarkhan Trsansformation.
  1573. [5:44:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lock them until you turn them into Charizard.
  1574. [5:44:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: They no longer have any moveset with anyh ope to win.
  1575. [5:44:54 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): lol
  1576. [5:44:57 PM] MasterWarlord: It lasts 15 seconds and also goes away when they die. Lag is also stated to be average IIRC
  1577. [5:45:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I wonder if there's any way to make it permanant.
  1578. [5:45:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true, but depending on inputs used, you could possibly fit one of our kill combos there
  1579. [5:45:27 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: In terms of when I found all the moves, the jab was honestly one of the last, first I thought of was the Chao move because that always stuck out to me as really broken even in that boss mode, then it was probably the Teferi stuff for the same reason and Lunge after that.
  1580.  
  1581. As you can imagine had to search forever to find Shedinja and reread Valozarg several times before the jab/ftilt clicked.
  1582. [5:45:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): just charizard them before they can do anything, insta-gib them, repeat
  1583. [5:45:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I actually checked Teferi, then entirely missed the potential.
  1584. [5:46:00 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Valozarg I thought of but did not check with time
  1585. [5:46:10 PM] MasterWarlord: I deemed utilt better than ftilt on valo
  1586. [5:46:11 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Chao I forgot existed, once I saw you ysed it instantly remembered its memeness.
  1587. [5:46:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I looked through just about every single set, even MYM 1 shit, EXCEPT the sets that came up
  1588. [5:46:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): up to MYM12, at least
  1589. [5:46:21 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Shedinja I just forgot.
  1590. [5:46:45 PM] MasterWarlord: I decided Shedinja Up B was bad because it was slower than factory/horcrux
  1591. [5:46:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Unkillable tho + time stops.
  1592. [5:47:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Lets you "store" lives easier.
  1593. [5:47:14 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yeah, lots of stuff we missed, unfortunately
  1594. [5:47:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): at least individually- cooperatively we'd have something utterly ridiculous
  1595. [5:47:35 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I wanted to put more time into this but a combo of RL things and other MYM things sucked my time away.
  1596. [5:47:47 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (though we all missed Valojab until just this conversation)
  1597. [5:47:51 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I don't think I would have beaten Smady's tho.
  1598. [5:48:22 PM] MasterWarlord: Teferi is the most important set to Smady after Valo
  1599. [5:48:28 PM] MasterWarlord: not the DM set
  1600. [5:48:33 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I never figured out I could trim my combo to 'kill me before I do this or lose' and thought I had to somehow manage 4 seconds, up until the end, so I went 'welp I tried' and stopped doing anything
  1601. [5:48:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I mean Chao's bullets are insanely fast, long range and insta-KOs.
  1602. [5:48:56 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And having layers of these things is what allows sets to beat me
  1603. [5:48:56 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): especially since I had most of my inputs used up for the combo, and I'd have to start digging and rereading sets in detail to get further
  1604. [5:49:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and I barely have the patience to even try reading modern sets
  1605. [5:49:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): spending more than half an hour genuinely pouring over MYM 3-era sets? No thanks
  1606. [5:49:33 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Up B + Chao NSpec is one of my favourite things I found
  1607. [5:49:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'm guessing no chance of reading/voting this contest then like I was gonna ask about?
  1608. [5:50:08 PM] MasterWarlord: I mostly just spammed my own sets and others I remembered very well. I have a very meme library to use.
  1609. [5:50:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Though as MW said, if I had Valojab I'd have it made, since I could keep slipping in new honey pots between stuns
  1610. [5:50:30 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I should tell you all the meme I did just before I submitted mine, I went to Warlord's FMA Man set from MYM5 and seriously considered using it until FA told me it was banned. It has a move that lets you do any move with 0.01 frames of lag. So that meant with my set, you could use the nspec to get -6000- stocks for free.
  1611. [5:50:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: With Valojab its just whoever gets Valojab off first.
  1612. [5:50:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and just eat while they get infinited
  1613. [5:50:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yeah, true
  1614. [5:50:40 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: XD
  1615. [5:50:42 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Amazing @ Smady
  1616. [5:50:48 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): pfft!
  1617. [5:51:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I do still get something I'm proud of, though:
  1618. [5:51:07 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Also this move just makes you into Sloth forever as the effect which is hysterical and amazing
  1619. [5:51:08 PM] Forward Arrow: holy fuck I came back to 800+ messages, its gonna be a bit before I catch up lol
  1620. [5:51:19 PM] MasterWarlord: That certainly qualifies as more of a jokeset than Emidius or Darkseid
  1621. [5:51:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): when my set wins, it does so absurdly fast
  1622. [5:51:31 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Actual meme tho Smady.
  1623. [5:51:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and don't bother, FA
  1624. [5:51:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: You gain 6000 stocks for free
  1625. [5:51:42 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Smady basically wins the main one, at least
  1626. [5:51:43 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It confused me because it has the MYM6 Envy in there in parts, but the broken stuff is just jokes.
  1627. [5:51:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: US just wins instantly.
  1628. [5:51:54 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Lol yeah
  1629. [5:52:08 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So you just gain 6k stocks and then instantly lose.
  1630. [5:52:10 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Valozarg's Jab is infinite range and comes out faster than the stun wears off
  1631. [5:52:21 PM] MasterWarlord: I am pretty sure after getting 99 stocks you would loop to 0 stocks and instantly die.
  1632. [5:52:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: XD
  1633. [5:52:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): or just cap at 99
  1634. [5:52:36 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It'd probably cap yeah
  1635. [5:52:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I think Brawl had an item that let you get an extra stock in really rare circumstances? They'd probably think to account for that
  1636. [5:52:55 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Not like you need to land nspec to get 99, if it takes 0.01 frames to do uspec
  1637. [5:53:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: brbathroom
  1638. [5:53:33 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): anyways, in advance: congrats on the win, Smady
  1639. [5:53:37 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The only way this was balanced is technically it wouldn't work on stuff like Chou Chou or Pooh because their insta wins require a charge
  1640. [5:53:52 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I do wonder if we should show Jamie this before declaring a winrar just in case he sees something.
  1641. [5:53:52 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Thanks US, yours was great too. Everyone contributed something of worth.
  1642. [5:54:17 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): for the main one, at least; I'm out of the running, since my no Strangelove set does not have Valojab either, while MW has it there and I imagine you do too, and I don't have any other entries
  1643. [5:54:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Funny enough, I just thought of a more meme combo
  1644. [5:54:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Demyx Water Clones + Kang Time Travel
  1645. [5:54:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): load my set with stall measures and Valojab
  1646. [5:54:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): go to future
  1647. [5:54:56 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I don't think Jamie could really tell us anything new on the main one Roy, but maybe add him for the Smash ones?
  1648. [5:55:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Water clones where literally nothing can ever touch them
  1649. [5:55:17 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: We haven't really discussed the Strangelove-less one that much yet
  1650. [5:55:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): actually, no, time stream would catch up to me immediately and it's only stocks at a time
  1651. [5:55:31 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: How long does it take for Demyx to auto win with the water clones?
  1652. [5:55:39 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): 10 seconds, but it's only a stock loss
  1653. [5:55:41 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): forgot that bit
  1654. [5:56:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Ah yeah, it's just Pooh-
  1655. [5:56:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so it'd just barely fit in (or go full meme with 5x speed dropping that to 3.33 seconds)
  1656. [5:56:15 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Winning the match period, kind of a big deal
  1657. [5:56:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Mm
  1658. [5:56:25 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): It's why I picked honey over water clones
  1659. [5:56:38 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): it's basically fully independent of anything my opponent does or can do
  1660. [5:56:53 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I cottoned on that the only way to win was not to play
  1661. [5:57:04 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): just didn't realize there was a much better way of doing that, heh
  1662. [5:57:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I want to imagine how it'd go if you had the Valojab and Shedinja up special on your set because having extra stocks and the insta win honey pot with that set up might be the most broken combo possible
  1663. [5:57:34 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Losing the Time Stop would hurt, but with infinite stun I wouldn't really need it
  1664. [5:58:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (also, before the moment has passed, let me just apologize for the salt back there)
  1665. [5:58:49 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: How long does it take for Demyx to auto win with the water clones?12 seconds but only a KO.
  1666. [5:59:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: No problem, I can empathize with you when it was that close
  1667. [5:59:05 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): hell, technically, you only need Honey and Valojab
  1668. [5:59:06 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I explicitly looked for match wins but could only find Pooh who I thought was unviable because it would just be inputted banned.
  1669. [5:59:11 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: IT really just came down to a couple moves
  1670. [5:59:12 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Did not consider the Kang looping.
  1671. [5:59:24 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): cause you eat passively so long as you don't use your arms
  1672. [5:59:24 PM] MasterWarlord: For some reason I deemed it important to have neutrality and counter neutrality. The main thing I did that was relevant without being memed upon was shitting on respawn invincibility. The Illidan move turns one kill into end of the match.
  1673.  
  1674. We never established Smady winning outside of stalling. It was a thing for a while that we were all "no you can't win by stalling because we are pretending this POS game is being played by existing tourney rules which would blatantly not apply"
  1675. [5:59:40 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: The Kang/Pooh/Zubat stuff is pretty genius
  1676. [6:00:04 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: that is because US still wins if we assume Smady has to "win" by stock or whatever.
  1677. [6:00:13 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): spam stun, grab honey whenever you run out
  1678. [6:00:16 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But US does that to basically every set, so.
  1679. [6:00:16 PM] MasterWarlord: That is the point yes.
  1680. [6:01:02 PM] MasterWarlord: IDK when we decided winning by stalling is allowed
  1681. [6:01:04 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: In fairness if you're using a rule set I'm pretty sure I could get around any specific stalling rule by using a bunch of infinites present in the set or wasting time, if it were realistic the set would obviously just have inputs banned
  1682. [6:01:07 PM] MasterWarlord: no FA makes this meme.
  1683. [6:01:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): he's reading backlog now
  1684. [6:01:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I assume
  1685. [6:01:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: IDK when we decided winning by stalling is allowedBecause if no stalling is allowed then US just wins.
  1686. [6:01:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: No real point in arguing.
  1687. [6:02:00 PM] MasterWarlord: That decides winner between Smady and US. It is kind of fucking relevant.
  1688. [6:02:13 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes, but FA isn't here.
  1689. [6:02:15 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): true
  1690. [6:02:20 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: So we can't just say one or the other anyway.
  1691. [6:02:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): he said hey, and is reading the backlog now, I believe?
  1692. [6:02:34 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If its that big of a deal, just say they both win IMO.
  1693. [6:02:41 PM] MasterWarlord: I know, point is we are basically congratulating Smady on winning already.
  1694. [6:02:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): ah, point, may have jumped the gun there
  1695. [6:02:59 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Fair enough.
  1696. [6:03:08 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): (the congrats bit, being my fault)
  1697. [6:03:32 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): since FA might have a different consideration, and Jamie may want to put his two cents in and spot something we missed
  1698. [6:03:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: S'true.
  1699. [6:04:24 PM] MunomARRio777: hitting "post reply" on a new set: https://smashboards.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fj.gifs.com%2FDkvgDA.gif&hash=5b399f4b718c4d615a550d7b55d8a23d
  1700. [6:04:33 PM] MunomARRio777: (such as, for example, the one-day I just posted)
  1701. [6:05:02 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I have kept saying for a while now that if there was anti-stalling tourney rules they'd have to be you know, actual specific rules, and there would be many ways to get around them. If it's just spamming the same move over and over that's never actually been a rule, if it's keeping them in lag forever look at wobbles.
  1702. [6:05:21 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Of course I would just use different moves to get around that anyway.
  1703. [6:05:24 PM] MunomARRio777: [6:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro:
  1704.  
  1705. <<< if it's keeping them in lag forever look at wobbles.banned past 300%
  1706. [6:05:36 PM] MunomARRio777: anything that prohibits the opponent from winning ever is banned
  1707. [6:05:39 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: A lot of Smash anti-stall rules are generically "can't do X combo" which is very meme for this kind of competition.
  1708. [6:05:44 PM] MunomARRio777: if it deals damage, generally banned past 300% if not banned outright
  1709. [6:06:05 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Well considering Valojab does 0% I think I'm good
  1710. [6:06:18 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: At worst it does 8% but that's only up close
  1711. [6:06:56 PM] MasterWarlord: IIRC does damage
  1712. [6:07:10 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Only does damage up close.
  1713. [6:07:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Outside that does not do any damage.
  1714. [6:07:17 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Just screenstun.
  1715. [6:07:31 PM] MasterWarlord: why is it not doing damage good
  1716. [6:07:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): none of my potential stall does damage ever, though none of it is good enough for this
  1717. [6:07:33 PM] MasterWarlord: Jesus
  1718. [6:07:45 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: It was all in my design
  1719. [6:08:38 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: http://i.imgur.com/5dxpmz8.png By the way it's kind of amusing, I've been imagining my set with this image of Funny the whole time, which is pretty fitting. IDK why he even looks like that in this image.
  1720. [6:08:56 PM] Forward Arrow: Okay I am back
  1721. [6:08:58 PM] MasterWarlord: In my Smash only challenge I argue basically 90% of moves infinite into themselves with lag reduction while keeping stun
  1722. [6:09:04 PM] Forward Arrow: and given I never specified anything at the start about stalling
  1723. [6:09:07 PM] MasterWarlord: valo jab just happens to be infinite range
  1724. [6:09:20 PM] Forward Arrow: And the meme stalling rules for Smash in the context of this competition
  1725. [6:09:26 PM] Forward Arrow: Stalling is allowed. Smady is the winner.
  1726. [6:09:43 PM] MunomARRio777: (party) congrats
  1727. [6:09:46 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Nice (Y)
  1728. [6:09:57 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: A strong runner up though, it was very close
  1729. [6:09:58 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Insert party favors here.
  1730. [6:10:14 PM] MunomARRio777: you decided for the other contests yet?
  1731. [6:11:19 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): congrats
  1732. [6:11:19 PM] Forward Arrow: It is really tempting to give one of the others a reward for No Strangelove because the non-Muno entries are so fucking good(and Muno provides some very interesting visuals at least, and feels pretty damn terrifying as "fair play" entries go).
  1733. [6:11:39 PM] Forward Arrow: Warlord wins the Single MYM and Hardcore Challenges. THis is by virtue of being the only one entering
  1734. [6:11:44 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: ofc I only did enough to enter one so RIP.
  1735. [6:11:50 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): :<
  1736. [6:11:52 PM] Forward Arrow: The Smash Challenge is a headache that I have not been able to figure much out about.
  1737. [6:11:55 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Wish I had time for more, but oh well.
  1738. [6:11:57 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): damn it skype
  1739. [6:12:05 PM] MunomARRio777: the smash challenge is a headache?
  1740. [6:12:27 PM] MasterWarlord: gone undiscussed in here, I basically assume I'd won that one from what FA said a while ago
  1741. [6:12:28 PM] Forward Arrow: I mean its mostly a headache to me because
  1742. [6:12:28 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): because looking up everything relevant there is harder, let alone comparing the data
  1743. [6:12:54 PM] MunomARRio777: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4
  1744. [6:12:58 PM] MunomARRio777: http://ssbwiki.com
  1745. [6:12:59 PM] Forward Arrow: Muno actually gave a half decent defense for why he can win in that one, but I feel Warlord's seems more generically broken.
  1746. [6:13:31 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): sure, but it's not as simple as 'Valozarg jab spam'
  1747. [6:13:37 PM] Forward Arrow: yeah true
  1748. [6:13:38 PM] MunomARRio777: fair @US
  1749. [6:13:44 PM] MunomARRio777: what aspects in particular FA?
  1750. [6:13:58 PM] MunomARRio777: QAC I'll give him that, probably the main broken part
  1751. [6:14:24 PM] Forward Arrow: Melee Fox Shine and QAC just is so powerful. He has Ganondorf Side B for the extra infinite option too.
  1752. [6:14:38 PM] Forward Arrow: Your set doesn't really shut people down as hard after one hit, by comparison
  1753. [6:14:42 PM] Forward Arrow: which is kind of important to Lizard
  1754. [6:14:42 PM] MasterWarlord: You buffed things other than speed on non lagless moves
  1755. [6:14:55 PM] Forward Arrow: Range is actually worth buffing sometimes
  1756. [6:15:08 PM] MunomARRio777: I have ZSS's usmash and rosa's jab buffed all the way in range, along with luma buffed all the way in speed
  1757. [6:15:28 PM] MunomARRio777: the opponent cannot land, climb off the ledge, or hit me during lag (luma desynchs)
  1758. [6:15:49 PM] MunomARRio777: also cloud fsmash buffed all the way in speed
  1759. [6:15:55 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): range I could see the argument for if the base is good enough range that it basically lets you hit them from starting positions, admittedly
  1760. [6:16:01 PM] MunomARRio777: and zss dsmash could infinite
  1761. [6:16:05 PM] MasterWarlord: I do have range on actual lagless Fox shine during QAC and Lizard Up B
  1762. [6:16:06 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): but Speed is definitely king in most cases
  1763. [6:16:28 PM] MunomARRio777: [6:16 PM] MasterWarlord:
  1764.  
  1765. <<< I do have range on actual lagless Fox shine during QAC and Lizard Up Bif you lizard uspec towards me, I have enough time to use 5x range cloud uair
  1766. [6:16:33 PM | Edited 6:16:37 PM] MunomARRio777: which lingers and outranges 5x range shine
  1767. [6:17:19 PM] MunomARRio777: as for damage-racking, I have Mario's grab (2x speed, 3x damage) and his utilt (5x damage)
  1768. [6:17:27 PM] MasterWarlord: "damage racking"
  1769. [6:17:36 PM] MasterWarlord: That is not a term in lizard challenge
  1770. [6:17:39 PM] MasterWarlord: you 0 death
  1771. [6:17:41 PM] MunomARRio777: it is in smash only
  1772. [6:17:48 PM] MunomARRio777: damage racking = 0-death in this case
  1773. [6:17:59 PM] MasterWarlord: You still have speed buffs to make easy infinites
  1774. [6:18:07 PM] MasterWarlord: without the retarded speed buffs infinites would be remotely harder
  1775. [6:18:10 PM] MunomARRio777: utilt deals like, 30-40%, true combo
  1776. [6:18:21 PM] MunomARRio777: without damage buffs
  1777. [6:18:25 PM] Forward Arrow: So ATM I'll let Warlord and Muno fight it out a little longer but. I talked about this with Smady and here's how the results go:
  1778. [6:19:36 PM] Forward Arrow: Smady gets an article for his victory in the contest overall. I'm letting UserShadow have the no Strangelove challenge as Smady's is only really different by one move that he admits isn't very good. Warlord wins Single Contest and Hardcore as he entered some truly hilarious/amazing stuff there and nobody bothered to compete.
  1779. [6:20:09 PM] MunomARRio777: (yes)
  1780. [6:20:14 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: I should read those ones
  1781. [6:20:16 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): I'll take that pity victory!
  1782. [6:20:26 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: (Y)
  1783. [6:20:33 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: And I only entered one contest so RIB.
  1784. [6:20:37 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): congrats to the winners
  1785. [6:20:38 PM] Forward Arrow: So basically 1 Smady article, 1 US article, 2 Warlord articles. Poor Froy has no shot at an article but I respect your attempt.
  1786. [6:20:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): and hey, you had a good shot, Froy
  1787. [6:20:48 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: "You have my sympathy, but not my regret" etc
  1788. [6:21:04 PM] Forward Arrow: I will say on this challenge, based on what's been said
  1789. [6:21:50 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): to be honest, I'm not sure what to ask for set-wise on the article front. I don't read much, my old sets are old, my new sets are either meh or good but flawed in obvious ways... hm.
  1790. [6:22:09 PM] Forward Arrow: The Smash challenge actually comes down to skill unlike Valozarg jab best I can tell. Muno's Lizard has the tools to keep himself in play vs Warlord's, but I think Warlord's can destroy the existing Smash cast to a greater degree.
  1791. [6:22:14 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: If I'd found the Valojab I could ever have a shot, but my moveset blatantly couldn't deal with it.
  1792. [6:22:27 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): If I had it I'd be untouchable
  1793. [6:22:44 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): spam jab, honey during breaks, passively get the honey needed to win
  1794. [6:22:51 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): literally would only need the two inputs
  1795. [6:22:57 PM] MunomARRio777: [6:22 PM] Forward Arrow:
  1796.  
  1797. <<< Muno's Lizard has the tools to keep himself in play vs Warlord's, but I think Warlord's can destroy the existing Smash cast to a greater degree.hmm
  1798. [6:23:25 PM] MunomARRio777: I mean, Mario dthrow -> utilt -> utilt -> [...] -> KO move is very effective
  1799. [6:23:37 PM] MunomARRio777: though QAC is also an effective infinite
  1800. [6:23:38 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Warlord probably deserves the articles on the write ups alone, good shit
  1801. [6:23:43 PM] Forward Arrow: Not as scary as Ganondorf/QAC/Shine
  1802. [6:24:06 PM] MunomARRio777: I can pressure the opponent to shield
  1803. [6:24:08 PM] Forward Arrow: But I will do you a solid Muno, since I have some degree of self-loathing and I like that you put forth the effort
  1804. [6:24:10 PM] MunomARRio777: then tomahawk grab
  1805. [6:24:11 PM] MunomARRio777: and win
  1806. [6:24:13 PM] Forward Arrow: You get an article too
  1807. [6:24:16 PM] Forward Arrow: As a bonus
  1808. [6:24:16 PM] MunomARRio777: c:
  1809. [6:24:22 PM] MunomARRio777: rip froy
  1810. [6:24:33 PM] Forward Arrow: cause I really did not expect anyone besides Smady/Warlord/Froy to participate lol
  1811. [6:24:39 PM] MunomARRio777: but like, I still do think that shield could play a part
  1812. [6:24:42 PM] Forward Arrow: and hell it might be interesting to write something directed at you
  1813. [6:24:54 PM] Forward Arrow: Doesn't Ganondorf Side B go through Shield, and its much faster now?
  1814. [6:24:57 PM] MunomARRio777: WL's stuff is mostly physical attack based, though flame choke is obviously a thing
  1815. [6:25:01 PM] MasterWarlord: One of the main things Muno relies on is Lizard having meme weight given he doesn't bother infiniting with half his moveset.
  1816. [6:25:03 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: But where's my article for existing :P
  1817. [6:25:05 PM] MunomARRio777: but flame choke is also not a guaranteed infinite
  1818. [6:25:11 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): That said, I'm happy that even if I can't "win" the fastest, I can sure as hell reach the results screen for the victory faster than any set ever made
  1819. [6:25:16 PM] MasterWarlord: So yes I would at least do better against non lizards
  1820. [6:25:18 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): gah, new messages!
  1821. [6:25:19 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): one second
  1822. [6:25:30 PM] MunomARRio777: I have insane shield pressure with nair, fair, etc
  1823. [6:25:36 PM] MunomARRio777: they also make the opponent shield
  1824. [6:25:39 PM] Forward Arrow: I mean I respect your existance in this competition but Muno came far closer to winning one than you did.
  1825. [6:25:42 PM] MunomARRio777: at which point I grab them and zero-death
  1826. [6:25:49 PM] Forward Arrow: even if it was a non-main challenge
  1827. [6:25:50 PM] Forward Arrow: @Froy
  1828. [6:26:00 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): yup, Warlord did some really well written write ups on everything; I feel kind of like a lazy asshole for not going in depth to that degree, let alone not thinking to just link the sets
  1829. [6:26:02 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Well yeah.
  1830. [6:26:07 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: The :p was there 'cause I was joking around.
  1831. [6:26:14 PM] MunomARRio777: [6:26 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke):
  1832.  
  1833. <<< yup, Warlord did some really well written write ups on everything; I feel kind of like a lazy asshole for not going in depth to that degree, let alone not thinking to just link the setssame lol
  1834. [6:26:19 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I'll get an article from you some other day and some other way. :P
  1835. [6:26:22 PM] Smashurai Daddiro: Someone going to post an article with all our entries/pastebin? Could leave out the pastebin maybe
  1836. [6:26:27 PM] MasterWarlord: Am I getting a third for Smash or are you just pity giving it to Muno
  1837. [6:26:49 PM] Forward Arrow: This is gonna be one huge pastebin lol
  1838. [6:26:54 PM] Forward Arrow: You are getting a third for Smash
  1839. [6:26:57 PM] Forward Arrow: and Muno gets a pity article
  1840. [6:27:12 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): Might get it sooner, re: Froy, cause I can't think of anything interesting aside from asking for a Jodie write up to stroke my own ego
  1841. [6:27:13 PM] Forward Arrow: both of you enjoy lol
  1842. [6:27:21 PM] UserShadow7989 (Hawke): so if you've got a solid idea, I'm all ears
  1843. [6:27:26 PM] MunomARRio777: [6:26 PM] Forward Arrow:
  1844.  
  1845. <<< and Muno gets a pity articlewe take those
  1846. [6:27:28 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: I was figuring you'd ask for a Jodie write-up.
  1847. [6:27:34 PM] Forward Arrow: oh god can one of you guys pastebin this for me
  1848. [6:27:37 PM] trolltwilightsparkle: Yes.
  1849. [6:27:39 PM] Forward Arrow: Skype is lagging like hell when I try to copy everything
  1850. [6:27:40 PM] MunomARRio777: the skype?
  1851. [6:27:40 PM] Forward Arrow: ty
Add Comment
Please, Sign In to add comment
Public Pastes
We use cookies for various purposes including analytics. By continuing to use Pastebin, you agree to our use of cookies as described in the Cookies Policy.  OK, I Understand
Not a member of Pastebin yet?
Sign Up, it unlocks many cool features!